Josie and Kelton 2: Kelton Gets His Happily Ever After

[Lurky]

On 8/25/2018 at 5:44 PM, eleanora3 said:

I agree that the use of the word "forgive" is the only thing that makes the story weird...but I think that these fundy Christians use the word "forgive" to simply mean "forget and move on" in a lot of cases.

But he hasn't forgotten and moved on - he's still bringing it up, when he's describing their relationship on The Knot, which is the "official" wedding site for a lot of fundies. 

When I read his story, I was going to ask people with Fundy knowledge, when someone "forgives" another person, aren't they supposed to put what they were angry about?  For example, the people who were abused within churches who get treated worse than their abusers because they bring it up etc. 

 

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

When I read his story, I was going to ask people with Fundy knowledge, when someone "forgives" another person, aren't they supposed to put what they were angry about?  For example, the people who were abused within churches who get treated worse than their abusers because they bring it up etc. 

Aaaargh, word fail.  I meant "aren't they supposed to put what they were angry about behind them in the past, as in "forgive and forget"?"

[Iamtheway]

I havn’t read the story so I don’t have an opinon on that, but a lot of you are writing ”adult man” and ”teenage girl” like the age difference is huge. Is 4 years difference really that big a deal in the US? I’m thinking back to when I was 16 and I don’t think anyone would have reacted to someone dating a 20 year old. (And here the dating would not be talking and waiting to hold hand until engagement.)

Quite contrary the general assumption was that girls matured faster then boys and the boys our own age were not that interesting. And I don’t think any of my friends parents had much of a say in who they dated at 16. 

I understand Josie was sheltered and nothing like a 16 year old in public school in Sweden.  But I’m still surprised at the reactions to the age difference. 

[elliha]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

I havn’t read the story so I don’t have an opinon on that, but a lot of you are writing ”adult man” and ”teenage girl” like the age difference is huge. Is 4 years difference really that big a deal in the US? I’m thinking back to when I was 16 and I don’t think anyone would have reacted to someone dating a 20 year old. (And here the dating would not be talking and waiting to hold hand until engagement.)

Quite contrary the general assumption was that girls matured faster then boys and the boys our own age were not that interesting. And I don’t think any of my friends parents had much of a say in who they dated at 16. 

I understand Josie was sheltered and nothing like a 16 year old in public school in Sweden.  But I’m still surprised at the reactions to the age difference. 

Our age of consent is 15 though and Sweden is very liberal compared to the rest of the world. I mean, even most of my Christian friends were allowed to have their boyfriend/girlfriend stay the night in their room (separate beds provided though) and their parents just said "Oh, you are both Christians you know sex is not allowed" and that was it. I know some of them had sex but a surprising amount actually did marry as virgins (but they did make out and I think some of them may have done things that could be described as sexual in some way but they did not have intercourse). My parents didn't even think for a second any of us would be virgins when we got married and while I never had a boyfriend when I was still living at home all my 4 siblings had their partners say the night at some point and I know my youngest brother had girls over who were not girlfriends (but that I know my mom did not like at all so he tried to hide this). My mom bought condoms for all of us and we had open discussions about sex from when we were 3-4. 

I agree, 20 and 16 is not something that automatically means alarmbells for me either but culture is culture.

[haroldtheyrefundies]

I wasn't around FJ when the older Bates kids got married but did FJ make this big of a deal of the age difference between Alyssa and John when they got married? 

[formergothardite]

There was a discussion of the age and how young she was. The difference was that John didn't write a concerning story about his relationship with Alyssa. 

I don't think the age would have been brought up as much with Josie and Kelton if he hadn't written a story filled with red flags. 

[Rachel333]

Alyssa was also never a minor during her relationship with John.

(And personally, I did think the age gap was potentially problematic even with them.)

[Hisey]

I never had a problem with the age gap. The Bates had a problem with it. 

Lots of couples are four years apart. That's not the issue. Occasionally, men of 20 date girls of 16. That may or may not be a problem, depending on a lot of things.

However, the problem here is that Kelton wrote a piece describing a) Josie setting a reasonable boundary and b) Kelton having a pretty unreasonable response.

[nickelodeon]

@haroldtheyrefundies Yes indeed! John and Alyssa, Austin and Joy, Joe and Kendra, Josiah and Lauren - anytime a fundie fellow deliberately selects the youngest (and most malleable, and most dependent) possible girl to be his servile helpmeet, people have looked askance.

I think this is the first time anyone's confessed to pursuing a relationship before everyone was of legal age, though, which makes it extra... uh, special.

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Alyssa was also never a minor during her relationship with John.

(And personally, I did think the age gap was potentially problematic even with them.)

I'm pretty sure Alyssa was 17 when she and John began their relationship.

[Rachel333]

20 minutes ago, marmalade said:

I'm pretty sure Alyssa was 17 when she and John began their relationship.

According to this http://fundamentalists.wikia.com/wiki/Alyssa_Webster she was a few days away from 19 when they started their courtship. I suppose she probably was 17 when they first met.

And yeah, I do find that problematic too given that John is 5 years older than her.

People keep talking about age gaps, but it's not the age gap itself that's the problem (5 years is no big deal at all in, say, your 30s), it's that the girls are so young and inexperienced and there's a huge difference in life experience between them and a man 4-5 years older.

[TatertotAsserole]

10 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Is 4 years difference really that big a deal in the US? I’m thinking back to when I was 16 and I don’t think anyone would have reacted to someone dating a 20 year old.

It is a big difference at those ages. Now that I'm close to 30, I have several friends in relationships with people with a 4-5 year difference. But those people didn't start dating one another til their late 20s/early 30s. When I was in HS, it was a pretty big scandal when seniors used to date freshmen. In my community, age differences more than 2 years were frowned upon until after college graduation. 

[Rachel333]

16-year-olds definitely think they're more mature than they are and it's definitely not uncommon for 16-year-olds to think it's okay to date someone much older than they are. What is less common is for adults to think it's okay for them to be dating teenagers. I specifically remember being in college and hearing people talk about one guy who was dating a high school sophomore and how weird and creepy they thought that guy was.

[HurricaneBells]

Oh lord are we STILL harping on this? #groan Its the only damn story the kid had, they are neither old enough or experienced enough to have a better one. It made me roll my eyes but i just dont think that he can write and its being blown way out of porportion! Mountains out of molehills. Best staying off this thread i think!

[purplepeony]

I can’t quite decide what to make of this love story- it does make Kelton sound like a bit of a over entitled idiot  but I do think it is important to consider the context. He is writing a summary of a relationship which ended for a while in a culture where ‘lost heart pieces’ are a disaster so he is trying to make it sound like they were a Romeo and Juliet type whose love was so strong it endured all the trials life threw at them. Because we only have his perspective and it is written as a grand love story ( not succeeding and making himself sound a bit creepy) he has shot himself in the foot but I don’t think we can use this to draw big conclusions about the state of their relationship and him as a person.

[JillyO]

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

Oh lord are we STILL harping on this? #groan Its the only damn story the kid had, they are neither old enough or experienced enough to have a better one. It made me roll my eyes but i just dont think that he can write and its being blown way out of porportion! Mountains out of molehills. Best staying off this thread i think!

Sounds like you agree with Gil and Kelly. That's fine. Some people, though, are concerned about a very young, naive girl marrying an entitled idiot, without the option of divorce. (Well, I suppose she could divorce but there's a huge social stigma against it).

But if you have more important things to discuss, go ahead. Wedding meals, anyone?

[Bazinga]

A four year age difference can be a big difference. I am sure this has be brought up in past responses, but lets think about a few things:

1) She was 15 (when he noticed her and asked for her number) and 16 when they began their budding relationship. Let me think back to when I was 15/16. I grew up in a very normal household. I was quite immature at those ages. I felt the world was about me. I argued with my parents when they asked me to do things I didn't want to do. I was immature over school "drama". I didn't have a job, I didn't live on my own. My parents took care of my necessities. I was a child in all fairness. I may have been driving a car, but I was far from an adult, making adult decisions. If a 19 year old man came into my life, I could see myself being easily manipulated by him. He would be older, cooler than the other 16 year old boys from high school. Who doesn't want to say they have a college boyfriend in high school? But in no way could I have maturely handled such a relationship.

2) Kelton was a "man" in the sense that he was considered an adult. He was not living with his father (well, I assume the way he writes about going away to college). If I could fast forward 4 years to when I went to college. I grew up quite a bit. I was working to support myself while in school. I was paying my own rent, bills, etc. I was grocery shopping for my own food and preparing my own meals. I was responsible for making sure my home was clean and that my clothes were laundered. I had to make sure my car was maintained on my own. I was responsible for my studies. My parents weren't checking on my homework at night like in high school or asking to see my grades. It was all on me to use my time wisely and prepare myself for a future career. This may not seem huge to us adults right now, but think of the maturity difference alone. 19 is young, but what you are doing in life is vastly different from a hyper-sheltered 15 year old girl.

Now, if we fast forwarded several years and we were talking about a 19 year old Josie and a 23 year old Kelton, it would feel different. In a normal world, one would assume at 19 Josie would be experiencing more responsibility in her adult life. She would be officially an adult and could legally make her own decisions as an adult at that time. And in all fairness, Josie did grow up quite a bit. She went to school and has a paying job. It might not be what we all hoped for her, but given her circumstances and upbringing it is great to see Josie make her own money at a legitimate salon. Had Kelton come along and met a 19 year old Josie to pursue from the very beginning it would have felt more natural. Sure he still would have felt more "worldly" than Josie, but she also would be looked at as a child.

 

[nausicaa]

11 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

People keep talking about age gaps, but it's not the age gap itself that's the problem (5 years is no big deal at all in, say, your 30s), it's that the girls are so young and inexperienced and there's a huge difference in life experience between them and a man 4-5 years older.

Exactly. I dated a guy who was 47 when I was 30. I don't regret it or suffer any negative effects because of it. My concern is solely because of Josie's very young age.

I've heard before that in many European countries very young women dating older men is normal, but I would be interested in a follow up study on their psychological and emotional health a decade or more later. Because in the U.S., the results aren't good. Perhaps the differences in culture helps with these aspects? I know that the plural of anecdotes is not data, but in the U.S. I have never personally seen a relationship of that kind that didn't negatively affect the young woman long-term in some way.

 

And for those of you who are tired of this conversation, feel free to scroll past? I've scrolled past many a Jane Austen/Harry Potter/pregnancy/European royal lines discussion I didn't give two shits about. I never understand thinking anyone gets to dictate anyone else's conversation on these threads, or anywhere else. Unless, like my nephew, you announce at dinner "I am not like this topic! We talk about something else." ... He's five years old.

[JillyO]

9 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Exactly. I dated a guy who was 47 when I was 30. I don't regret it or suffer any negative effects because of it. My concern is solely because of Josie's very young age.

I've heard before that in many European countries very young women dating older men is normal, but I would be interested in a follow up study on their psychological and emotional health a decade or more later. Because in the U.S., the results aren't good. Perhaps the differences in culture helps with these aspects? I know that the plural of anecdotes is not data, but in the U.S. I have never personally seen a relationship of that kind that didn't negatively affect the young woman long-term in some way.

 

And for those of you who are tired of this conversation, feel free to scroll past? I've scrolled past many a Jane Austen/Harry Potter/pregnancy/European royal lines discussion I didn't give two shits about. I never understand thinking anyone gets to dictate anyone else's conversation on these threads, or anywhere else. Unless, like my nephew, you announce at dinner "I am not like this topic! We talk about something else." ... He's five years old.

Alright. Since this last part is pretty obviously directed at me, I'll bite.

I don't mind the fact that topics I don't care for are discussed. This is par for the course on FJ, happens all the time, and I always just happily scroll on past. This is not what my issue with this thread is. What I do mind is the fact that in this thread, everyone who doesn't agree with the popular narrative that Kelton is a creepy, manipulative adult jerk who was infatuated with a child, is called a Bates fan, and basically shut down. The conversation here is pretty much just a circle jerk.

Now, if you (general you, not you @nausicaa ) have been reading in this forum for a while, it should be pretty obvious that I am in no way a Bates fan. And I am also not a Kelton fan. I can even see how some of the things he wrote in the love story thing can be seen as red flags (I don't interpret what he writes this way, but I understand why maybe others do). But I absolutely cannot stand the rampant claims of "a grown adult who is obsessed with a child," where anyone who dares to disagree is immediately shut down and discredited.

I don't think a 16-year-old dating a 20-year-old is a problem. At all. I do think there is a problem with sheltering your children so much that they are unable to discern for themselves if someone is a good fit for them or not. That is a problem pretty much all the second-gen fundies we follow have. I don't believe that something magically changes the minute someone turns 18. One doesn't go from child to adult within one day. Adolescence is a real thing, and it's incredibly important to give young people the tools to start making their own choices during this time. I find it kind of ironic how all of a sudden, most posters here thinks it's oh-so-great that Gil and Kelly pretty much forbade Josie from being friends with Kelton (it's not like they were even doing anything physical whatsoever). I personally think this is ridiculous. Of course Josie shouldn't be on track to get married at 16. But my personal reaction to that is "it's a damn shame that Josie was not allowed to be friends with, and eventually date, the guy she was clearly smitten with, and that she didn't get the chance to see if they would work out as a couple or not." So no, I'm not at all convinced that Kelton and Josie are necessarily a great fit long term. But I think they should have been given the chance to figure it out for themselves, and not been told to wait until Josie turned the magical number of 18, as if that somehow suddenly made her able to know exactly whether Kelton is the person she should marry. If they had started dating when she was 16, I'd say there's a pretty good chance they would have broken up at some point, and everyone would have moved on. If not, then they would have a solid foundation of a three-year relationship now and would be in a much better place to get married (if that is what they would still want to do) than they are now.

To quickly reply to the first part of your post, I am from a culture where such age differences are pretty normal, and no one I know (including myself) has been negatively impacted. I never had a serious relationship with anyone significantly older than myself, but I had an affair with a guy who was 20 when I was 16, and another one with a 27-year-old shortly before my 18th birthday. Met my now-husband when I was 19 and he was 20, and at 28, we are happily married. I have zero regrets about anything. I also have a friend who started dating her boyfriend of 10 years when she was 16 and he was 20. They eventually broke up, but, you know, most couples do. She certainly does not regret the relationship. Another friend from high school started dating a 33-year-old guy when she was 19 (yes, I know she was a legal adult, so slightly different, but plenty of people in this thread still said that that would be wrong). She is now 30, they are happily married and have a child together (she is also stepmom to his kids from a previous marriage). I could give more examples, but as you already said, the plural of anecdote is not data. However, from my own experience, I have never seen any issues arise. And I plan to allow my future children to make their own choices when it comes to dating.

[Hisey]

 

36 minutes ago, JillyO said:

But my personal reaction to that is "it's a damn shame that Josie was not allowed to be friends with, and eventually date, the guy she was clearly smitten with, and that she didn't get the chance to see if they would work out as a couple or not."

I don't think many 16 year olds are equipped to see the red flags that the adults here are mentioning. My own two girls (14 and 18) would not see these flags. They are not sheltered, in fact, they are rather worldly, well traveled and well educated--the opposite of Josie. My oldest has dated. Yet neither one has the life experience to see trouble signs.

My teens have friends over every day. Their "friends group" change from time to time, so I see a lot of different kids. They are so young at this age! Even the smartest, most sophisticated ones are still so young. Most are not dating yet, but even the ones who do have only dated a couple of people. That's not enough experience to distinguish a "Kelton" from a "Chad." (assuming Chad is a good guy, which he seems to be)

So, no, I don't think allowing Josie to date at 16 would have changed anything. 16 is a kid. She'd still lack the life experience to know that his possessive behavior was unhealthy.

And of course kids don't magically change into adults at 18. No one thinks that. But 18 is the bright line that we, as a society, have set to distinguish adults from kids. Why? To avoid people saying things like, "She's 14 but so grown up that she can be treated like an adult, so I'm going to date her." That kind of ambiguity can be dangerous. We protect minors from that sort of thing by have a clear line between adulthood and childhood. Similarly, not all 16 year olds are mature enough to drive, but we set 16 as an age limit because otherwise people would be letting 14-year olds on the road.

[nausicaa]

30 minutes ago, JillyO said:

Alright. Since this last part is pretty obviously directed at me, I'll bite.

It was directed at you among several others.  But I appreciate the thoughtful response. 

FTR, I am open to discussion of whether or not Kelton and Josie's relationship is unhealthy . I'm leaning towards unhealthy but I'm open to arguments on the other side. 

I feel torn on the issue of how much control parents should have over a young girl's boyfriends. I am all about giving teenagers more responsibility, and I do think modern U.S. culture infantilizes teenagers too much which is leading to clear problems. At the same time, I can't ignore that nearly every very young woman/older man relationship has an inherent imbalance of power and there are just so many bad outcomes I've seen. (Then again, I dated a 19 year old when I was 16, and while I feel the relationship was a waste of my time and he was kind of a loser, I don't really feel victimized from it.)

[bal maiden]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

 

And of course kids don't magically change into adults at 18. No one thinks that. But 18 is the bright line that we, as a society, have set to distinguish adults from kids. Why? To avoid people saying things like, "She's 14 but so grown up that she can be treated like an adult, so I'm going to date her." That kind of ambiguity can be dangerous. We protect minors from that sort of thing by have a clear line between adulthood and childhood. Similarly, not all 16 year olds are mature enough to drive, but we set 16 as an age limit because otherwise people would be letting 14-year olds on the road.

18 is not the age of consent everywhere. It's 16 in the UK. 15 in Sweden. It was 13 in Spain, and 14 to get married until recently. I think this is why so many of us Euro types are finding it hard to buy into this 'she's a child; he's an adult' argument, as in our cultures *and* legal frameworks, there is not such a hard and fast line at 18. Yes, a 16 year old *is* less mature, and yes, parents and others *should* look out for red flags. But referring to a 16yo as a 'child' seems to me to be being deliberately absurd - but of course I understand that those arguing that she was a child are also arguing from their own cultural perspective. 

[Rachel333]

24 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

18 is not the age of consent everywhere. It's 16 in the UK. 15 in Sweden. It was 13 in Spain, and 14 to get married until recently. I think this is why so many of us Euro types are finding it hard to buy into this 'she's a child; he's an adult' argument, as in our cultures *and* legal frameworks, there is not such a hard and fast line at 18. Yes, a 16 year old *is* less mature, and yes, parents and others *should* look out for red flags. But referring to a 16yo as a 'child' seems to me to be being deliberately absurd - but of course I understand that those arguing that she was a child are also arguing from their own cultural perspective. 

You're mixing up the age of consent and the age of majority. Those are two different concepts.

And I definitely think that reaching legal age doesn't automatically make someone mature. I think 18-year-olds can be very vulnerable too.

[Palimpsest]

25 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

but of course I understand that those arguing that she was a child are also arguing from their own cultural perspective. 

Oh, we can look at some intercultural and cross-cultural perspectives too.  Apparently you agree with very early sexual experiences and child marriage, but many people don't.  Internationally.  Some even regard it as a Human Rights violation.

http://16days.thepixelproject.net/16-organisations-working-to-stop-child-marriage/

Quote

16 Organisations Working to Stop Child Marriage

Child marriage, defined as a formal marriage or informal union before age 18, disproportionately affects girls. Between 2011 and 2020, more than 140 million girls will become child brides, according to United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). In South Asia, nearly half of young women and in sub-Saharan Africa, more than one third of young women are married by their 18th birthday.

The implications for child marriage includes the fact pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death in young women aged 15–19. There is strong evidence highlighting the correlation between early marriage pregnancy and a failure to complete formal education. According to UNICEF’s State of the World’s Children 2009 report, If a mother is under the age of 18, her infant’s risk of dying in its first year of life is 60 per cent greater than that of an infant born to a mother older than 19. Even if the child survives, he or she is more likely to suffer from low birth weight, under nutrition and late physical and cognitive development. Child brides are at risk of violence, abuse and exploitation. Finally, child marriage often results in separation from family and friends and lack of freedom to participate in community activities, which can all have major consequences on girls’ mental and physical well-being.

Babatunde Osotimehin, M.D, Executive Director, UNFPA, sums up the ramifications of child marriage when she stated:

“Child marriage is an appalling violation of human rights and robs girls of their education, health and long-term prospects… A girl who is married as a child is one whose potential will not be fulfilled.”

Though the practice of child marriage is rooted in tradition and culture, neither culture nor tradition is immutable and there is hope for change. This list presents 16 organisations which directly and indirectly address ending the practice of child marriages and altering conditions which otherwise remain fertile for the practice of child marriages to continue.

All 16 international orgs. listed there define child marriage as under the age of 18.

As for the US, some states still allow marriage as young as 11 with parental consent.  It rather conflicts with the statutory rape laws, and the age of consent varies among the states too.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/200000-children-married-us-15-years-child-marriage-child-brides-new-jersey-chris-christie-a7830266.htm

And there is the Maranatha Chapman story, lots of links in this thread:  

 

And more recently the Vaughn Ohlman's fiasco:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3575749/Duggar-church-leader-hosting-weekend-retreat-families-single-teenagers-look-arranged-marriages-charging-1000-attend.html

One thing I have to say for the Bateses - they apparently thought Josie was too young for courtship at 16, and perhaps Josie thought so too.  Their judgement in that specific situation should be respected.  And that might be the first time I have agreed with the Bateses ever.

They could have married her off at 16 quite legally, if they thought she was ready.

Quote

 

Tennessee Code Section36-3-104 to 107

Minimum Legal Age With Parental Consent Male: 16; Female: 16; (3 day waiting period except for certain circumstances where waived)

Minimum Legal Age Without Parental Consent Male: 18; Female: 18

Comments Minors under 16 may obtain license in special circumstances.

 

The special circumstances almost invariably involve pregnancy.  And judges sign off on them.