Jinger 29: New House and New Wardrobe

[SadieJane]

        I know that I, personally, talk about clothes, because I love them so much. I am a fashion-o- holic, for unknown reasons. I personally don't talk about the others clothes because to me they are kind of meh, but I feel like if Jinger wasn't part of fundy life, hell even if she was and i knew her, I could sit and have a conversation about clothes.  I have friends (they are sisters), who are from the same modesty standards of the duggars, but they try to avoid frumping it up, and I looooooooooooooooooooooooove talking clothes to them. 

      Also, I get that the page isn't about discussing their clothes, but instead their lifestyle, but the clothes are part of their lifestyle. 

     Now onto the barbie doll theory. Maybe she isn't a barbie doll. Maybe Jeremy is not unlike me when it comes to style and fashion and is trying to get her as into it as he is, or, maybe she already is.  I can't judge the dynamics of their relationship because i don't see whats going on outside the eyes of media, but we could be missing a whole side of the Jin Jer relationship that they reserve for away from the public eye. Or maybe he is just a controlling dick. Who knows? What I do know is if those jordans were white and pink, i'd be rocking them out. lol

[singsingsing]

I actually think that Jeremy and Jinger are a pretty good match, just in terms of general interests, lifestyle, etc. I can't see Jeremy with Jana at all. I do think that out of all the Duggar sisters, Jinger was and is by far the most compatible with Jeremy. 

I do not know what's driving Jinger's wardrobe changes. I do think that it's important to point out that, while yes, the jeans and shorts and sleeveless dresses are definitely an indication that she's either changed or mind or that she feels free to break with her parents on wardrobe, it's not necessarily an indication of anything else. There's very little evidence at this point that Jinger is breaking with fundamentalism in any meaningful way, and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

I have no reason to doubt that Jeremy loves Jinger and that he also genuinely likes her. But it can't be ignored that he very specifically and purposefully chose to pursue a Duggar. This was a man in his late 20s, with a higher education and a great deal of life experience. He's a good looking guy, seems to come from a fairly well-to-do family, played professional soccer, etc. He had a lot of options when it came to choosing a conservative Christian girl to marry. He chose an insecure, uneducated, malleable 22-year-old fundamentalist. It's not like he met her at a church event and they just naturally hit it off. One does not simply 'accidentally' fall in love with a Duggar daughter (unless you've been in their sphere for years, like an Austin situation). He chose her. I will never not find that suspicious.

[PainfullyAware]

Jeremy absolutely strikes me as someone who is ambitious. Maybe he has some idea of becoming a Rich Wilkerson Jr., just a bit less hipster. He definitely jumped on the chance to befriend the Duggars and maybe also to see if he clicked with any of the daughters. At the very least Jinger and him had physical chemistry...there seemed to be a lot of hormones at work during the courtship. I think there is affection and love too (maybe not for a lifetime but they never got to test that out). The way they kept glancing at each other during the after show of counting on, especially during awkward moments, made it seem like they've definitely become a 'unit'. Like how long term couple catch their partner's eye at an event to communicate wordlessly ("do NOT tell your mother that I buried that hideous bust of your head she gave us somewhere in the basement").

But since he did click with Jinger he obviously decided to milk it for all it's worth. Maybe he wants them to have their own reality tv show. Or maybe just like another poster mentioned he just wants to rise to the leadership of that GCC church organization. Either way Jinger's celebrity status was an asset in his eyes.

[just_ordinary]

Disclaimer: I am not going to quote  everyone because this post will touch on different topics.

Jeremy meeting Jinger:

Following the logic of some, no Duggar in law would be different than Jeremy. They all knew who they are the second they met and before. The way I understand it Ben (and Jessa?) set them up. Like a blind date where on of them is publicly known.  It like going on a date a friend organised but stalking the social media presence before in the normal world. I am not sure I can follow the 'he sought her out theory" as if he watched tv and decided to befriend Ben to meet her. There are absolutely no indications for this. Everyone one marrying a Duggar knows exactly what they get. The man marry into a well known, probably quite wealthy family and get a wife that is eager to please them. The women marry into the same family with a possible upgrade from their home (Anna). We will never know how deep their feelings really are and how feelings and other reasons play together. 

I get highly uncomfortable when people state things like "he is to old, tall, should def. have married Jana..." WTF??? No one has to decide who marries who on such criterias! Do you tell stuff like that to your friends? "I think your partner should have married your older sister because in choosing you he showed that he wanted someone more (insert a nice normal world character insult equivalent to meek- maybe: not to intimidate him with a PhD). That might be true but if you don't know someone personally that is so far fetched and biased I just can't. It diminishes Jinger as a person. As if could have not met her and decide that she is indeed what he was looking for in a woman and she did the same. It also reduces her to the tv persona we all know. I believe there is more to any of them. If I like it is another question. Could be something nice or more hate and submission.

Jinger's style

I don't give a fuck what she wears. But I can appreciate outfits I would wear. The Duggar woman dress very modern modest for a long time now. Jinger branching out more can be her doing, his doing, their doing... Is she changing her style because she wants, he wants, they want, she has more possibilities, wants to represent his status, he wants her to represent, does she just grow up (I certainly changed my style several times)? Maybe there is a message, maybe she just likes to pose in her new clothes. We only speculate in ways that fit our own bias. I am quite annoyed if people stating their interpretation as if this is soooo obviously the truth depending on even more speculations. Speculation is fine but one is not more true than the other. It annoys me more when it goes into their relationship than their beliefs. We have no idea about their real relationship apart from a very well crafted social media output (and heavily edited TLC snippets). We do have a good idea about their beliefs. But even here we sometimes should stick to what they say and not go the route: they were in a photo bis xyz, and xyz is close friends with abc, that must mean they tot's follow the rules of abc's weird preacher cousin. Not saying anything against our interpretation about their photo with his preacher where Jeremy clearly stated to be close friends. But even that mustn't mean he follows him blindly.

I am not sure if they will go the Conservative Christian route at one point. Right now, his sermons indicate otherwise. But to be honest, if he starts to cut out some points he would be there (totally my interpretation of Fundamentalism and CC).

If her clothing is a sign for evolvement on the belief front is hard to tell. We have people here with personal experience in this cult. Some say no others say yes. It depends on their personal experience. Both are valid! So in the end we know nothing.

Jeremy's past as character study

Please be careful with all those stories about him from "old friends" or people who know the neighbors of the cousin. The internet if full of bullshit and everything could have been quite different. I am certainly not judging someone buy old photos and because they might have liked to party and get wasted in their early twenties. Am I raising my eyebrows for him getting arrested- yes. But IIRC it was for being drunk and therefore not following orders/trying to resist his arrest. In Europe the police acts quite differently  sometimes so my own bias is in his favour on this. Especially with him never getting in trouble again (as far as we know).

Sorry for this rant. I hope everyone understands what I want to say.

[singsingsing]

I'm not saying that Jeremy saw Jinger on TV and said to himself, "Ooh, I'm gonna go catch me a Duggar girl!" Not at all. I'm saying that he chose to pursue her knowing who she was and all that that entailed. I'm not saying that makes him evil or even predatory. It just makes his motives, in my opinion, suspicious. Perhaps I'm not a romantic, but I don't believe in love at first sight and I definitely don't buy into the theory that Jeremy was so dazzled by her that he'd stop at nothing to rescue her from the cult.

When I say that he has worldly experience, I'm not holding his past against him or saying he's a bad person, I'm pointing to the imbalance of power in their relationship. Jeremy would have noticed said imbalance very early in their courtship, and still chose to pursue her. Again, I'm not saying that makes him a bad person, but it should be reason enough to pause and consider their relationship dynamic in the context of how we know women are treated within a fundamentalist framework.

This forum exists to discuss the damage done by fundamentalism, so I continue to point out the things that give me pause about Jeremy, the imbalance of power in their relationship (the fact is that's it's a much greater imbalance than any of the other Duggar couples), and the fact that attractive people wearing cute clothes and enjoying a (currently) childfree, privileged, Instagram-worthy lifestyle does not necessarily point to any significant departure from fundamentalism.

Also, human beings are complex and nuanced. I really dislike certain things about Jeremy, but I appreciate that he also has good qualities. Parts of his relationship with Jinger creep me out, other parts seem healthy. Etc. And often people and relationships aren't exactly what they seem. Time usually has a way of revealing such things. But in the mean time, when people start singing Jeremy's praises or getting starry-eyed about him, I'm sorry but I am going to be that annoying person reminding everyone that he has just as many issues as the rest of them. 

[Four is Enough]

I don't think I've seen anyone touch on this possibility yet, but perhaps Jeremy only conveys a sense of confidence. Perhaps below that facade lies a mind thinking, "I'm an imposter, I can't do this, I need a "meek" wife so I don't have to subdue her but she'll go along with whatever I say, so I'll always look good".....

[Kak]

I'm struggling with that idea, @Four is Enough, just because of his profession. I've never encountered a minister or pastor who wasn't full of his own importance. Self-confident to a fault. I suppose he could be an exception, but I'd be very surprised.

[singsingsing]

41 minutes ago, Kak said:

I've never encountered a minister or pastor who wasn't full of his own importance. Self-confident to a fault.

Wow, that's... a truly amazing generalization. I'm sorry you've had that experience.

I think ministry is one of those professions that attracts people who are arrogant or on a power trip, but also attracts people who truly care about others and are determined to make a positive difference. Other professions with the same problem include doctors, lawyers, police officers, and teachers. 

The minister of my church is one of the most humble and kind people I know. He's not unique in his profession.

[Kak]

It's not a generalisation, I'm recounting my experience. 

[louisa05]

6 minutes ago, Kak said:

It's not a generalisation, I'm recounting my experience. 

You made a generalization based on your experiences. It would still be a generalization unless you have actually known a large enough sample of pastors in the world, across religious traditions, and known them well enough to ascertain their personalities. 

Odds are, you don't. 

I've known some arrogant pastors. I've known some dumb ones. I've known some highly intelligent ones. I've known ones that are not in the least bit pastoral. And I've known some humble extremely caring ones. 

As for Jeremy, there are so many assumptions about this guy that it is on the edge of absurd. 

This is what I know, after being immersed in fundagelical culture for a portion of my life, the vast majority of evangelicals I knew were not sinister people with evil motives. Pastors included. Many of them were deluded. Many were hypocritical. Many made terrible life decisions. Many viewed a lot of other people badly. But I only encountered one, or maybe two, who truly had sinister motives toward others in their day to day life. Interpreting every single thing Jinger or Jeremy does to be rooted in some sinister motive of Jeremy's is actually really disturbing. 

Why did he marry a Duggar? Well, only he (and maybe Jinger) truly knows that. Automatically assuming it was for a sinister reason is just as bad as automatically assuming he is a knight in shining armor who came to rescue her. Personally, knowing the world he lives in, I suspect there was a lot of pressure from his church board and congregation to be married. I have known young evangelical men pursuing ministry careers who could not get hired by a church until they were married. He had two ways to marry--the normal 21st C American route of meeting women, dating, pursuing a serious relationship, then marrying. That could have taken years. Or he could go with courtship and be married in less than six months, bring home a bride to his congregation and have the pressure off. Does that make him evil? Not necessarily. At worst, it makes him Mr. Collins. 

As for Jinger, why do we assume she is so malleable? Because she is young and looks even younger? Perhaps because she is petite? Or a combination? Because she never spoke up much on a reality show? It is important to remember that reality shows have writers. Participants have their personas crafted by those writers and edited to appear one way and one way only. 

Empirical evidence would indicate that Jinger is not so weak. She is the only daughter who married someone knowing she would not live in the immediate area of her parents' compound (Jill & Derrek moved into one of daddy's houses immediately--they didn't go straight to the mission field). She is the only daughter who has broken her parents' dress code. She seems to be thriving away from her parents and siblings. In a lot of ways, she is the only married Duggar child who seems to have actually accomplished "leaving and cleaving"--the rest are attached to the big house and the influence of JB and Michelle one way or another (although, the jury may still be out on Joy & Austin). Those things would indicate a pretty strong young woman, even if some of her choices are Jeremy's influence. And so what if they are? Should a spouse not influence your life? Beyond his potential influence, guess what? It takes support to break away. Perhaps some of these things are not influence so much as support. But the bottom line is WE DON'T KNOW. 

[Kak]

13 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

You made a generalization based on your experiences. It would still be a generalization unless you have actually known a large enough sample of pastors in the world, across religious traditions, and known them well enough to ascertain their personalities. 

Odds are, you don't. 

I made a statement based on my experience, I'm not claiming to know everything. I couldn't care less what other people think,  but being patronised and dismissed isn't going to change my opinion.

Many members of FJ (myself included) are here because of the harm done to them by religion and religious people. My truth is my truth.

[louisa05]

4 minutes ago, Kak said:

I made a statement based on my experience, I'm not claiming to know everything. I couldn't care less what other people think,  but being patronised and dismissed isn't going to change my opinion.

Many members of FJ (myself included) are here because of the harm done to them by religion and religious people. My truth is my truth.

All or nothing statements are the stuff of stereotypes and discrimination. 

My life was badly impacted by spiritual abuse while working in an evangelical organization, but I am still able to understand that stereotyping and generalizations never accomplish anything good. If you are speaking from your experience, then you say "the people in ministry that I have known were..." not "ALL people in ministry are...". The second one diminishes people to a stereotype and is not helpful. 

[Kak]

6 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

you are speaking from your experience, then you say "the people in ministry that I have known were..." not "ALL people in ministry are...". The second one diminishes people to a stereotype and is not helpful. 

If you read my initial post you'll see what I actually said. I'm not going to patronise you in the way you have me.

 

2 hours ago, Kak said:

I'm struggling with that idea, @Four is Enough, just because of his profession. I've never encountered a minister or pastor who wasn't full of his own importance. Self-confident to a fault. I suppose he could be an exception, but I'd be very surprised.

 

[epic fail]

22 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

As for Jinger, why do we assume she is so malleable?

The description off Jeremy's and Jinger's relationship from everyone (asked on CO) was always that Jeremy is such a strong leader and perfect for Jinger who was described a "good follower" and meek.

I don't believe that this is just "Duggar speak" because they had no problem describing Jessa's and Ben's relationship as Jessa being the strong one and Ben the more tender soothing influence (on 19kac).

There were also instances of Jinger pointing out that she has a hard time making decision (wedding planning) and Jana saying that Jinger needs encouragement to make a decision (wedding dress).

Also I do not think that Jinger magically found a source of inner strength as Jeremy in the after show told us that she is still very likely to doubt herself (and therefore relies on the judgement and leadership of others).

*no longer in direct response to the quote above*

I personally don't like Jeremy but I DO NOT think he is a evil person with sinister motives towards Jinger (just really conservative shitty world views). 

But I still worry about an imbalance of power between them. Not because that makes Jeremy specifically a bad person but it goes to show what is wrong with the sheltered upbringing and courtship of the Duggars and other conservative christians similar to them (including Jeremy who was part of promoting these ideas/ideals on TV). 

I worry that JinJer's public image and CO at the moment are aimed to project the illusion that " yes, the Duggar kids were raised in this fundy environment but hey, they have become super well adjusted young adults able to be at the front of fashionable hip christian youth culture, marrying shiny ex athletes and all this without the regrets and screwups of normal life." (similar to the Bates image) 

Allowing such an image to grow is the real danger of not exploring the option that changes in Jinger's clothes might only be because her headships leadership allows this/encourages it. Or even: her upbringing made her so reliant on the leadership of others that she changes something where (according to interviews with the other children) she was given the opportunity to be unique even at TTH aka her trademark "Jinger style" to suit the leadership.  Maybe soon she will also like sports and the outdoors (both things she expressed a decided dislike for in the past)

I guess that is what the discussion of Fj always circles back to in a why but I think it is important to repeat it often.

[Palimpsest]

@Kak, there was nothing wrong with your statement as you originally wrote it.  

While I have known some very nice ministers, preachers, priests and so on, I too think there is a definite tendency for conceited, bombastic, attention-seekers to self-select into the role.

[Beermeet]

Jinger has always been fashion forward, once the frumpers stopped.  I always thought she looked cute and a certain flair.  She no longer has to abide by her parents dress code and married a man who's fine with pants and longer shorts and sleeveless shirts.  I personally do not understand the pants thing.  They say as to not draw attention to the crotch.  BS!  Pants on men don't?  And, who's cking out everyone elses crotch area anyway?  It's a Gothard thing, not a conservative Christian thing.   I say good for her and Alyssa Bates.  Doesn't change anything except personal dressing choices.

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, louisa05 said:

At worst, it makes him Mr. Collins. 

This is funny on so many levels... and kind of wins the internet for me today!

(would have loved to add those laughing smilies. Where the hell are they? I could have sworn I saw them earlier?)

[singsingsing]

I have to admit, I'm a tad frustrated by this accusation I'm continually seeing that people are ascribing sinister or evil motives to Jeremy. I feel like I've been one of his harsher critics, and yet I've taken pains over and over again to make it clear that I'm not accusing him of being evil, bad, or having truly shady motives. I can't be much kinder to him without ignoring what to me seem like obvious red flags and potential issues related to the misogyny and power imbalances inherent in fundamentalism. And I guess that's all I can say on the subject for now lest I sound like a broken record!

[blackberry]

More pants! Jeremy doesn't seem to do casual very well. He seems overstyled or uptight compared to the rest of them. 

[BeccaGrim]

I sometimes wonder what they talk about when the cameras aren't on.  Like what does Jeremy say to Jinger...

[ThunderRolls]

32 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I have to admit, I'm a tad frustrated by this accusation I'm continually seeing that people are ascribing sinister or evil motives to Jeremy. I feel like I've been one of his harsher critics, and yet I've taken pains over and over again to make it clear that I'm not accusing him of being evil, bad, or having truly shady motives. I can't be much kinder to him without ignoring what to me seem like obvious red flags and potential issues related to the misogyny and power imbalances inherent in fundamentalism. And I guess that's all I can say on the subject for now lest I sound like a broken record!

Unfortunately it seems like so many people are viewed in black and white terms when we don't know them personally. All good or all bad. Like you, I feel there are some red flags, and I'm not a fan of Jeremy's - but he hasn't done anything to warrant an "all bad" or "all good" label. To me, he comes across as self-serving and disingenuous which doesn't make someone evil. Just because Jinger can dress more like a typical young woman doesn't make Jeremy some great guy, either. I'm really surprised that just because Jinger wears pants now and that people think that she's Miz Independent and full of freedom - if Jeremy didn't approve that, I highly doubt Jinger would wear pants. Do we know that for sure? No. Based on Jeremy's own fundamental beliefs which he is open about and Jinger's background, I think it's a pretty good educated guess Jinger is looking to her husband for guidance and approval. I would love to think Jinger is free as a bird now, but realistically, that's probably not the case. Does it mean she's unhappy and destined for misery? No, I don't think so, but she's most assuredly still deeply entrenched in a fundamental Christian lifestyle and marriage. I hope Jinger has some happiness in her life and that Jeremy is able to provide that for her.

 

[Beermeet]

Jinger looks great.  Love that outfit, something I would wear.  I do wish Jeremy would stop buttoning all the buttons.  Undo one or 2.  Makes him look uptight and shirts tight around my neck drive me nuts.  I can't do it.

[VBOY9977]

I don't really think the color of Jinger's pants goes with the color of her shirt, in both today's pic and in the nike shirt pic.... 

I do like the pants she's wearing today though.

Also, they're in LA which is interesting lol! It must be a culture shock for Jinger but I hope she takes the best parts of it!

[cptbailey]

I hope Jinger took some time and learned and read about ancient Rome and Greece while there. Go out there girl, read, experience, and expand your mind!  Museums are great places. I'm excited to see her there..

[jerkit]

I think the button all the way to the top is a style choice. It's pretty popular amongst the guys I go to shows with.