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47of74

Game of Thrones Season 7 & 8 (SPOILERS)

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singsingsing
1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

@singsingsingI started putting together a Cheat Sheet, but lost everything I had (which was actually a lot.) If you have specific questions I’d be happy to try and answer them though. :) 

Oh no!! Argh, I’m so sorry, there’s nothing worse than that! But thank you, I have a feeling I may be taking you up on that offer, haha!

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singsingsing

I'm going to post my actual reactions to last night's episode behind a cut, because I don't know what's a spoiler and what isn't:

Spoiler

-Okay, so like I said, I read half of the first book and have kind of gleaned a lot of other GoT info through cultural osmosis. So I recognized the Stark kids/Jon Snow, Daenerys, Cersei, and Tyrion. And Jon's buddy whose name I can't remember. No idea who anyone else was.

-I mean, I know who Jaime Lannister is, but I did not recognize him. So apparently that was him mysteriously and dramatically showing up right at the end? Which, now that I know it was him, I get all the drama, but at the time I was just like, "Hello? And who are you?"

-The dragons are meh. I've never been a big dragon person, so you know. Daenerys seems okay. Don't really have much of an opinion on her so far.

-Jon Snow. Bless his heart. He really does know nothing. Just... bless.

-I like Sansa a lot. She's my favourite so far. 

-I liked Arya more than I expected to.

-Loved the scene of the possessed kid getting burned alive on the wall. Also when that one group of guys is coming in, and the other guy is like, "Watch out! He has blue eyes!" And he goes, "I've ALWAYS had blue eyes!" Legit laughed out loud at that one. (I kind of have a basic understanding of the ice zombies so I was watching and going, "Yes! I basically sort of understand what's happening here!")

-I expected it to be way more explicit. It must have been a tame episode.

-I'm going to go back and start watching Season 1 and see if I want to binge the whole thing to try and catch up by the last episode. We'll see what happens. Gotta get my money's worth out of that new Crave subscription somehow!

 

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NakedKnees

@singsingsing, if you really want to binge watch the show, I honestly think just catching up through season 4 will inform you on most of what's going on. That's approximately where the book adaptation is over and the show is its own beast, and while there are some great moments in seasons 5-7 I don't think the plot points are quite as crucial as in the earlier seasons.

I don't have much to say about the season 8 premiere except that I really liked it! The reunions and callbacks were well done. I want to see Tyrion and Sansa talk more, as well as Arya and everyone. I don't think Jon/Dany's relationship is quite as intense as both of their past loves, so it's a bit harder for me to get into that.

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47of74

That was a good show last night (beware spoilers ahead).

Spoiler

That look on Jon's face when Sam told him who he really was - I'm calling that the Jon just realized he was keeping it in the family look.

 

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VelociRapture
1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I'm going to post my actual reactions to last night's episode behind a cut, because I don't know what's a spoiler and what isn't:

  Hide contents

-Okay, so like I said, I read half of the first book and have kind of gleaned a lot of other GoT info through cultural osmosis. So I recognized the Stark kids/Jon Snow, Daenerys, Cersei, and Tyrion. And Jon's buddy whose name I can't remember. No idea who anyone else was.

-I mean, I know who Jaime Lannister is, but I did not recognize him. So apparently that was him mysteriously and dramatically showing up right at the end? Which, now that I know it was him, I get all the drama, but at the time I was just like, "Hello? And who are you?"

-The dragons are meh. I've never been a big dragon person, so you know. Daenerys seems okay. Don't really have much of an opinion on her so far.

-Jon Snow. Bless his heart. He really does know nothing. Just... bless.

-I like Sansa a lot. She's my favourite so far. 

-I liked Arya more than I expected to.

-Loved the scene of the possessed kid getting burned alive on the wall. Also when that one group of guys is coming in, and the other guy is like, "Watch out! He has blue eyes!" And he goes, "I've ALWAYS had blue eyes!" Legit laughed out loud at that one. (I kind of have a basic understanding of the ice zombies so I was watching and going, "Yes! I basically sort of understand what's happening here!")

-I expected it to be way more explicit. It must have been a tame episode.

-I'm going to go back and start watching Season 1 and see if I want to binge the whole thing to try and catch up by the last episode. We'll see what happens. Gotta get my money's worth out of that new Crave subscription somehow!

 

Spoilers!

Spoiler

Yes, the episode was a relatively tame one all things considered. Not a bad introductory episode either. There was a lot of mirroring of the series premiere in how it began and ended. The premiere began with the royal family visiting Winterfell just like Dany does in this episode. Bran Stark also used to be a very talented climber like the little boy shown climbing the tree for a better view. And the ending of both episodes featured Bran and Jamie as well - in the series premiere it ends with Jamie shoving Bran out of a window after Bran catches him having sex with Cersei and this episode ends with the pair of them staring each other down across the courtyard.

So! I’m trying to remember who popped up in the episode. Basic characters to know:

- Jamie Lannister: He’s undergone one of the most interesting character arcs on the show. He’s evolved from incestuous lover and Kingslayer who pushes small children out of windows to a man struggling between doing what’s right and supporting the one he loves most (Cersei.) While Brienne of Tarth is escorting him to King’s Landing several seasons ago, he reveals he only killed King Aerys because Aerys intended to blow up King’s Landing rather than have Robert Baratheon took it from him. Jamie killed the King in order to save the hundreds of thousands of innocent people living there. Ned Stark made assumptions when he came across the scene immediately after, which led to his reputation as a Kingslayer. At the end of last season he faced a similar choice when he found out Cersei had blown up the Sept of Baelor (killing the majority of the court) and that she was willing to betray her promise to fight the White Walkers in order to hold onto her throne. Despite how much he loved his twin, he chose to walk away and ride North to offer his help to Jon and Dany.

- Samwell Tarly: he’s Jon’s friend you mentioned. He’s a member of the Night’s Watch and is training to be a Maester, which is why he mentioned studying in the Citadel. He’s actually the eldest child in his family making him his father’s heir, but his father hated him for being cowardly and preferring reading to hunting. His father gave him a choice between joining the Watch and having an unfortunately fatal hunting accident - Sam opted for the Watch, making his younger brother, Dickon, the heir. His father and brother sided with Queen Cersei last season and refused to bend the knee to Daenerys when she defeated them in battle. His father tried to save his brother, but his brother wouldn’t let him die alone (from the little we saw he struck me as a genuinely honorable and kind character and they don’t last very long)... so Dany had one of her dragons burn them both alive. Last season he saved Ser Jorah Mormont’s life and helped uncover a massive secret.

- Gilly: She’s Sam’s kind of girlfriend. She’s originally from beyond the Wall where she lived with her father/husband and various female relatives (all If whim were also married to her father. That guy was sick and twisted and fully deserved his death.) Several seasons ago, the Watch showed up seeking shelter as they retreated back to the Wall following a failed expedition. The Lord Commander at the time (Mormont) was killed in a surprise mutiny and Sam wound up escaping with Gilly and her newborn son* into the wilderness in the aftermath. She eventually named her baby Little Sam in his honor, they kind of have a sexual/romantic relationship, and they actually make a really sweet family. So I’d bet good money on something terrible happening to them, though I really hope it doesn’t!

- Ser Davis Seaworth: Former smuggler and Hand to Stannis Baratheon (brother of King Robert), he’s currently one of Jon Snow’s most trusted advisors. Though he wasn’t highly born and had to be taught to read by the young daughter of Stannis (RIP Shireen - your death was truly traumatizing in the worst possible way), he is a highly honorable person and has a canny knack for survival. 

- Varys: He’s worked as spymaster for past Kings including Robert and Joffrey. After Joffrey - the human embodiment of a dreary Monday morning - was spectacularly killed at his own wedding, Varys helped smuggle Tyrion to safety. They both eventually joined up with Dany, who made them both her advisors. 

- Missandei: A former slave who Dany bought and freed back in Season 2. She speaks multiple languages, has a calming presence, and serves as both friend and advisor to Dany. She and Greyworm have a romantic relationship going on and I find it adorable, so you know one of them isn’t going to make it out if this season alive.

- Greyworm: Leader of the Unsullied, Dany’s highly trained Eunuch Army. She “traded” one of her dragons for the entire Army (and Missandei too) back in I think Season 2. The slave trader didn’t realize dragons don’t follow the rules, he was burned alive, the slavers were overthrown, slaves were freed, and Dany walked away with all her dragons and a badass army. He, like all Unsullied, is exceptionally loyal to their leader. 

Euron Greyjoy: He’s basically a Westerosi Jack Sparrow. He usurped his niece Yara as leader of the Iron Islands and sided with Queen Cersei. He wound up capturing Yara late last season and got Cersei to promise to marry him in return for his help. He’s unpredictable and dangerous, though not the worst character we’ve see so far (that’s be either Joffrey or Sansa’s sadistic second husband, Ramsay Bolton.)

Brienne of Tarth: Seen, but didn’t speak this episode. She’s a former guard of both the late Renly Baratheon (Robert’s beloved youngest brother) and the late Catelynn Stark. The last time she saw Catelynn, she was charged with returning a captured Jamie Lannister to his family in exchange for Sansa and Arya, both of whom were at that time believed to be held hostage by them (only Sansa was.) She’s continuing to honor that promise by serving and protecting both Stark daughters now that they’ve been reunited. 

- Bronn: A former sell-sword who has worked for various Lannisters - first Tyrion and then Jamie (who he taught to fight left handed.) It'll he interesting to see if his loyalties remain with the Lannister brothers or if he’ll be willing to switch his support to Cersei. 

Gendry: He’s the blacksmith. He first popped up in Season One when Ned Stark visited a forge he knew his late mentor, Jon Arryn, had visited shortly before his death. Ned eventually pieces together a mystery that reveals that Gendry is a bastard of King Robert and Robert’s three children with Cersei were actually the products of her incestuous relationship with Jamie. Gendry is sent north to join the Watch and becomes friends with Arya on the way, though they become separated when the Brotherhood without Banners sells him to Stannis Baratheon. Stannis’ creepy Red priestess, Melisandre, uses Gendry’s blood to curse his rivals (something about King’s blood being important) and intends to sacrifice him for the cause, but Davos saves him by setting him free. It’s a running joke that he was just rowing around Westeros because he disappeared from the show until last season. 

Ser Jorah Mormont: The disgraced son of the late Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Jeor Mormont, and a trusted advisor to Dany. He’s been with her since she first married Khal Drogo, though she banished him several seasons ago after learning he had endangered her life by spying on her for King Robert in return for a pardon and welcome back home. He’s back in her good graces now though and newly cured of Greyscale thanks to Samwell Tarly.

These are under spoilers because their fates were up in the air last season. 

Spoiler

 

- Tormund: He of the, “I’ve always had blue eyes!” He was one of the leaders of the Wildlings that Jon first met in Season 3 (I think.) Tormund was instrumental in helping to get his people to safety south of the Wall. He, along with other Wildlings, helped to guard the Wall in recent seasons as the Watch has been seriously depleted. He’s made his romantic interest in Brienne of Tarth hysterically and uncomfortably clear.

- Beric Dondarion: Eye patch dude hanging with Tormund. He’s been killed and brought back to life by Thoros of Myr multiple times, though Thoros died as a result of undead bear mauling last season. So if he dies again it’s for good this time. He was part of the Brotherhood without  Banners that wrecked havoc in the Riverlands several seasons ago, though he journeyed north with Thoros because, I believe, Thoros had a vision that they were needed there.

- Eddison Tollet: Guy who forgot Tormund’s eyes were always blue. Current Commander of the Night’s Watch and a longtime friend to both Jon and Sam. He’s brave, reliable, and a competent leader. 

- Viserion: One of Dany’s three dragons. She stupidly brought all three of them on a rescue mission beyond the wall last season and poor Viserion was killed by the Night’s King as a result. His body was reanimated as a wight, so now the White Walkers have a dragon zombie on their side. 

- The Night’s King: The creepy af leader of the White Walkers. He was once a normal man who lived thousands of years ago, but he was turned into a monster by the Children of the Forest who were trying to protect their lands from the First Men. At some point they lost control of him and he went rogue. No one is really sure what his goal is, but he seems hell bent on destroying absolutely everyone living. It’s been implied that killing him will destroy all the White Walkers.

*Gilly’s father, Craster, somehow had a deal with the White Walkers. They would leave him and his family along so long as he gave them every male child born into his harem. The children were changed into some kind of White Walkers. That’s why a Gilly was so desperate to escape before Craster found out she had a boy and why Sam was willing to risk his life to help her. He even killed a white walker that attempted to take the baby away before they reached the wall. 

And just to add, Sansa has long been a favorite of mine. A lot of people have only recently started to like her and a lot of people still hate her. I think a lot of that can be chalked up to good old fashioned sexism since she’s a much more feminine character than fan favorites Arya and Brienne are. I admire Sansa though because she’s a survivor and she shows that you don’t necessarily need to physically fight to stay alive. She’s learned a lot from various mentors over the years - her parents, Queen Cersei, Queen Margarey, and Littlefinger - and I do strongly feel she’s a force to be reckoned with at this point. Anyone who underestimates her does so at their own peril and I'm excited to see where her story ends up.

Edited by VelociRapture

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AliceInFundyland

@singsingsing There were more boobies at the beginning. And throughout there have been some rather wretched and sickeningly graphic violent scenes. (To women as well) And - just plain violent. At some point Emilia Clarke (Dany) was like, eff this, I am not going to be naked anymore, and the world cheered for her.

I love how Sansa has grown up. She has grown the most of any female character, imo. I would really love to have seen her fate in the books.

I don't know what is fan fic and what isn't. George supposedly informed them on his vision for the end. So I hope the general thrust of all this is close. It's the big exclusion of so much minor/semi minor stuff that is gone.

Sigh. I'm rolling with it.

Like I said. I like both on different levels. And I have for a very long time. An ending, of any kind, is better than no ending at all.

@VelociRapture Very nice!

Edited by AliceInFundyland

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VelociRapture

@singsingsing A few more now that I’m thinking of it. I don’t know if they’ll be mentioned again in the future, but they could end up being important somehow. If not, it could just be useful to have a bit more background:

- Tywin Lannister (deceased): Father of Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion. He ruled his family with an iron fist and was an absolutely brilliant politician and strategist. His cunning led to the defeat of Robb Stark at the Red Wedding and he provided much needed guidance and stability during Joffrey’s blessedly short rule. He had previously served as Hand to King Aerys, who made the fatal mistake of insulting the Lannister family by refusing to marry his son, Rhaegar, to Cersei - something about not marrying his son to his servant’s daughter. He wound up turning against the Targaryens at the last moment and it’s heavily implied that Rhaegar’s wife and children were brutally murdered on his orders. He was killed by his youngest son, Tyrion, via crossbow to the abdomen as he sat on the chamber pot shortly after Joffrey’s death. He was the type of character you really wanted to hate, but that you also kind of admired at the same time.

- Sandor Clegane: Known by his nickname “The Hound.” He appeared in this episode and I forgot completely. He started as a grudging guard for Prince Joffrey in Season One. He takes an odd interest in Sansa, then Joffrey’s fiancée, and saves her life at least once. His greatest fear is fire - his older brother, Gregor (aka the Mountain), held his face into the fire when they were children because Sandor played with his toy. The Hound was left with severe facial scarring on half his face and a very abrasive personality. After fleeing Joffrey’s service during the Battle of Blackwater, he eventually stumbled across Arya Stark and takes her hostage. He intends to ransom her off to family, but is foiled first by the deaths of her mother and brother at the Red Wedding and then by the death of her Aunt Lysa Tully Arryn at the Eeyrie. He’s gravely wounded during a fight with Brienne of Tarth and Arya robs him and leaves him for dead - as mentioned in the episode. He doesn’t die though and hooks up with a peaceful and loving community of people that help heal his body. He’s not entirely sold on their beliefs, but it’s clear he has some affection for them and being around them does him some good. Those people are eventually murdered and I can’t remember what happens next, but he winds up heading North with, I think, Beric and Thoros. The scene he has with Arya was actually kind of great because you can see he has an almost weirdly fatherly pride in her and the fact that she’s survived this long. 

Gregor Clegane (deceased kind of): Better known as the Mountain, he’s a hulking giant of a man with a wrath and horrible attitude to match. He was responsible for the extremely gruesome deaths of Rhaegar Targaryen’s wife, Elia, and their two children during Robert’s rebellion. He’s currently the creepy zombie guard that protects Cersei. 

- Talisa Stark (deceased): Wife to Robb. She was serving as a battlefield nurse during the War of the Five Kings when they met. She didn’t care what side a patient was on - if they needed help she was there to help them. She helped introduce some compassion and rationality back into Robb’s life. They fell desperately in love and secretly married, even though he had pledged to marry a daughter of Walder Frey. She told Robb she was pregnant shortly before their deaths at the Red Wedding, where she was literally stabbed in the womb to death. 

- Lady Olenna Tyrell (deceased, unfortunately): Oh man. If there was ever a character everyone could agree to love it was the Queen of Thorns. She had the most wicked burns of all time and seemed to greatly enjoy manipulating situations to be family’s favor. The women of House Tyrell (Olenna and Margarey) were perfect samples of how women could be both feminine and major power players, as they clearly ruled over the men of the family. She oversaw Margarey’s marriages to no less than three Kings and helped orchestrate the death of one of them - Tyrion might have gotten the blame, but it was Olenna who secretly dropped poison into King Joffrey’s goblet. She later tells Margarey she did so because she didn’t want to see her granddaughter married to a monster, but preferred to see her married to Joffrey’s younger, sweeter, more easily manipulated brother instead. After the deaths of literally her entire family at the Sept of Baelor, Olenna threw her support behind Daenerys Targaryen. Her forces were defeated by Jamie Lannister, who mercifully offered to let her take poison rather than suffer the public and painful execution he knew Cersei had planned for her. After drinking the poison, she used her final moments to reveal to Jamie that she was the one who killed their son, that she hadn’t anticipated his gruesome it would be since she had never seen that poison used before, and how she wanted him to, “Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me.” Mic. Fucking. Dropped. I was sad to see her go, but it was by far one of the strongest scenes of the show thanks to the performances of both actors, hands down. 

Stannis Baratheon (deceased, thankfully): King Robert’s long suffering brother and rightful heir. His wife had suffered numerous pregnancy losses and as a result they had one daughter, Princess Shireen. She had contracted greyscale as a child, a normally fatal diagnosis. No one knows how, but Stannis somehow managed to find someone who was able to stop the spread of the disease and save her life, though she remained disfigured by it. He had an extremely rigid view of the world, quite similar to a lot of the Fundies we talk about here. Things were very black and white for him. Ser Davos was one of his most trusted advisors after smuggling onions to him and his troops during the siege of Dragonstone during Robert's Rebellion - he remained grateful, but still chopped off several of Davos’ fingers because smuggling was a crime. He makes a claim to the throne after Robert’s death when news leaks that Cersei’s children are actually bastards. His Red Priestess Melisandre, helps bring about the deaths of his rivals, including his younger brother, Renly. Ultimately, Stannis sacrifices literally everything - even his own daughter who he did seem to care about to an extent (and who’s death was one of the worst to witness) - and he ends up being beheaded by Brienne of Tarth after losing a battle. 

- Melisandre: Her current whereabouts and backstory aren’t really known. It’s believed she’ll return to Westeros at some point as she previously mentioned she knew she would eventually die there. Like Thoros of Myr, she serves the Lord of the Light, a mysterious fire based deity that demands human sacrifices on a disturbing basis. She does appear to have some sort of magical abilities thanks to this deity because she’s literally birthed a shadow monster that killed Renly Baratheon and she also brought Jon Snow back to life. After Ser Davos leaves that she had the innocent Princess Shireen burnt at the stake as a sacrifice to ensure Stannis’ victory (he still lost), she is exiled from the North by Jon Snow on pain of death. 

ETA: 

Lysa Tully Arryn Baelish (deceased, blessedly): Younger sister of Catelynn and Aunt to the Stark children. She was married to the late Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale, and had one surviving child with him (sweet Robin.) Catelynn and Ned receive a mysterious letter from her at the start of the show heavily implying that they should keep away from King Robert and the Lannisters, as she suspects they were responsible for Jon’s death. The Starks take it as a sign that Ned should head south as Hand of the King in order to investigate though, so her letter sparks pretty much everything. After Catelynn travels to King’s Landing to show Ned a dagger used to attempt to kill their son Brandon, she takes Tyrion Lannister (who she was told was responsible) hostage and brings him to her sister st the Eeyrie. Lysa is furious Catelynn involved them, but agrees to hold a trial by combat to determine his guilt. Bronn, a sell-sword, fights on Tyrion’s behalf and prevails, so Tyrion is set free. Lysa is extremely attached to her only child, to an unhealthy extent. It’s eventually revealed that she was subtly manipulated into poisoning her own husband because she feared he would send their son to live as a ward elsewhere as a way to break that unhealthy bond. She ultimately dies after threatening to their her own niece, Sansa, out the Moon Door to her death. Her new husband and longtime crush, Littlefinger, shoved her through the door instead after telling her he only ever loved Catelynn. 

Spoiler

- Petyr Baelish (deceased, at last): He’s a master manipulator and is pretty much responsible for everything that’s happened. He manipulated Lysa into killing Jon Arryn, tricked Catelynn and Ned into thinking the assasination attempt on Bran was by Tyrion (it was actually Joffrey), betrayed Ned when he tried to reveal Joffrey’s status as a bastard, helped kill Joffrey, killed his wife after telling her he only ever loved her sister, manipulated Sansa into marrying Ramsay Bolton, and tried to drive a wedge between the remaining Stark children.... and that’s only what I remember from memory. He harbored a lifelong love/obsession for Catelynn Stark that transferred partially to Sansa after her death because Sansa strongly resembles her mother. He played the game of thrones masterfully for a long time, so it was almost a genuine shock when he wound up being executed by the Stark children for betraying their family. 

- Lyanna Stark (deceased): The only daughter of Rickard Stark. She was described as a wild child much like her niece Arya. In a flashback we saw her mischievous spirit on full display as she teased her brothers. When she was a teenager, she attended a tournament at Harrenhal Castle with her family. She saves Howland Reed from a group of squires who are tormenting him. While there, Prince Rhaegar - who won the tournament - crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty rather than his own wife, Elia Martell. It was considered an outrageous act because he was married and she was engaged to someone else. Not long after, she was abducted by Rhaegar. This infuriated her family and her fiancé, Robert Baratheon. Her oldest brother, Brandon, was on his way to marry Catelynn Tully when he heard the news and he rode to King’s Landing instead to demand she be returned to them. In response, Mad King Aerys summoned all the fathers of Brandon and his companions and had them all killed for treason - Rickard was suspended over a fire and the rope was tied around Brandon’s neck. Brandon strangled himself to death attempting to save his father, who wound up burning to death anyways. Robert Baratheon, joined by Lyanna’s brother Ned, began his rebellion in order to bring her back home. The revolt eventually ended with Robert killing Rhaegar at the Battle of the Trident, Jamie Lannister killing Mad King Aerys, and Ned finding Lyanna dying at a tower in Dorne. Over time it’s revealed that Lyanna was very much a willing participant in her relationship with Rhaegar, that they were secretly married, that Ned found Lyanna dying in childbirth, and that the promise she made him make with her dying breath was to protect her infant son from Robert. Ned renames the boy Jon Snow and raises him as his bastard son. No one other than Ned and Howland Reed, not even Ned’s new wife Catelynn, knows the child’s true identity as heir to the Iron Throne.

- Howland Reed: Father to Meera and Jojen. He’s a bannerman of House Stark and the only surviving person who was present at Jon Snow’s birth. He, therefore, is the only living person with direct knowledge of his paternity. His silence helped ensure Jon Snow’s safety over the years. We have never see him on screen or in the books, but I’d assume Martin intended for him to eventually play a role given the importance of that knowledge.

@AliceInFundyland I think they’ve done a decent job of toning down some of the sexual violence and violence in general over the years. There’s still a lot of it because they’re portraying a very violent and sexist culture, but I give HBO credit for apparently implementing safe guards to keep all the actors healthy and safe on set. 

Spoiler

I do think the show took a rather feminist turn at some point though. It’s really interesting to see how the various female characters have started to find ways to fight back against the violence and constraints of their time. You have Cersei who started in an abusive marriage and just ended the last episode in a new sexual relationship where she truly holds all the power. Dany starts on a similar path to Cersei before really starting to find her footing as a woman and leader at the end of season one. Arya starts out pretty naive in her own way and ends up as kind of a creepy assassin.   

But yeah. It’s Sansa who really intrigues me more than any other woman on the show. She starts off as an incredibly naive and wistful child and ends up experiencing some truly horrific things - witnessing her father’s execution up close as she screamed for his life, being forced to stare at his impaled head on the ramparts, nearly being raped by revolting peasants, being cruelly tortured by Joffrey at court, being manipulated by pretty much every adult around her, being forced to marry into the family responsible for her family’s deaths, being married off to Ramsay Bolton who rapes her repeatedly, being constantly underestimated by everyone - even Jon Snow... her character arc is one of the most interesting to me because you see her spine stiffen and her spirit toughen a little bit with each new injustice she suffers. She’s truly come into her own as a human being and I think her survival is due solely to her ability to play the game and learn something from each of the important adults in her life - honor and family loyalty from her parents, manipulation and cunning from Cersei and Littlefinger, and how feminity and flattery can be a fantastic cover for ambition and cunning like Margarey. 

I’d love to see Jon actually acknowledge Sansa’s political savvy and start to listen more to her. He does the right things, but he has no sense of PR or how to sell ideas, whereas Sansa does. He literally got himself stabbed to death because of this and it pisses me off that he didn’t seem to learn from that. They both know the North, but Sansa is naturally a Northern in a way he simply isn’t. The two of them working with Dany could make a truly formidable team if only Jon gets his head out of his ass and if Dany ditches her pride and acknowledges that the North has every right to be skeptical of her and that she could really use Sansa's help winning them over. 

I’d honestly love to see Sansa end up as Lady of Winterfell in her own right - either because Jon dies or ends up on the Iron Throne somehow. I think she has the perfect temperament and the skills needed to rule over an area as wild as the North. Sansa, not Jon or Arya or Bran or her dead brothers, is the one who is actually capable of filling the void left by Ned’s death and I think she’s done a pretty spectacular job when given the opportunity. 

 

Edited by VelociRapture
Added information about Lysa Arryn and Littlefinger, both of whom I somehow forgot.

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TuringMachine

@VelociRapture I would add one thing about Varys: he's extremely loyal to the realm, but not to any particular ruler. He'll ditch a king / queen if he thinks them being in charge is no longer in the people's best interest.

As for my thoughts on what I want to see:

Spoiler

I'm of the opinion that if Jon is not the prince who was promised then this was just straight up a bad story. I mean his conception / birth is the whole reason for the events of the series (minus the white walkers). What would the point be if all the set up was for nothing? 

I100% think Sansa should run the north. Arya could be her assassin or something. Or maybe she could go figure out what's west of westeros. Bran could go live in the weirwood I guess.  I don't think Daenerys should be queen nor do I think she's going to survive the series. Jon either has to become king or die defeating the night king. If he dies then I think Tyrion and Varys should rule. 

 

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singsingsing

Oh, I'm definitely not cool with watching women get raped... like, at all. And I did try watching the first episode of season 1 today, got about 3/4 of the way through and gave up as I just could not get into it (same thing happened with the book). Shame, as it's a fun concept and there should be a lot of things I like about it, but I guess it's just not my jam! Still looking forward to seeing how my death pool entry does, and I will rely on @VelociRapture's amazing character summaries!

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VelociRapture
49 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

@VelociRapture I would add one thing about Varys: he's extremely loyal to the realm, but not to any particular ruler. He'll ditch a king / queen if he thinks them being in charge is no longer in the people's best interest.

As for my thoughts on what I want to see:

  Hide contents

I'm of the opinion that if Jon is not the prince who was promised then this was just straight up a bad story. I mean his conception / birth is the whole reason for the events of the series (minus the white walkers). What would the point be if all the set up was for nothing? 

I100% think Sansa should run the north. Arya could be her assassin or something. Or maybe she could go figure out what's west of westeros. Bran could go live in the weirwood I guess.  I don't think Daenerys should be queen nor do I think she's going to survive the series. Jon either has to become king or die defeating the night king. If he dies then I think Tyrion and Varys should rule. 

 

Yes absolutely! Varys is a true servant if the realm and the people. His main motivation is pretty much just stability. I don’t know why or how he came about to that view, but I definitely find him one of the more interesting male characters because he really doesn’t have a personal agenda. 

45 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Oh, I'm definitely not cool with watching women get raped... like, at all. And I did try watching the first episode of season 1 today, got about 3/4 of the way through and gave up as I just could not get into it (same thing happened with the book). Shame, as it's a fun concept and there should be a lot of things I like about it, but I guess it's just not my jam! Still looking forward to seeing how my death pool entry does, and I will rely on @VelociRapture's amazing character summaries!

Yeah, there was a lot of nudity and sexual content. That’s how the books were written as well. I don’t like the scenes where it’s not explicitly consensual, but I do kind of get why some of them were included - this is a dangerous and horrible world to live in for anyone, but especially for women. Unfortunately, sexual violence was (and is) a fact of life for women across time and space. I wish there hadn’t been so much of it at first and I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to view that themselves. 

Spoiler

The show has changed some scenes significantly though. After Joffrey’s death there’s a scene where Jamie, after an extended absence, pretty much rapes Cersei next to his coffin. In the books it’s completely consensual though - Cersei initially resists out of fear of being caught, but she willingly goes along with it because she needs an escape from the overwhelming grief she feels. And when we last saw Sansa she was still safely at the Eeyrie, disguised as Littlefinger’s bastard daughter Elaine. Her childhood friend, Jeyne, is passed off as Arya Stark by the Lannisters and Boltons and is married off to Ramsay Bolton, not Sansa. He does still rape her and forces Theon Greyjoy - who he has utterly broken in every way possible - to participate, but it’s not something repeatedly shown. I think there’s one scene it’s shown and the rest is implied or spoken of by Jeyne to Theon prior to their escape together. 

There’s also consensual scenes shown though, as I mentioned. I think that does help to balance the violence a bit and show that consensual interactions are much more enjoyable than non-consensual. The scenes between Ned and Catelynn, Robb and Talisa, Jon and Ygritte are all examples that stand out to me*. Rose Leslie, the actress who played Ygritte, actually gave an interview recently where she discussed how those scenes were filmed and how the crew and Kit Harrington (who plays Jon Snow and is now married to Rose in real life) made her feel as safe and relaxed as possible during filming. It was kind of interesting to read about - the crew was strictly limited to only the necessary people and they talked through what would happen pretty carefully ahead of time so that everyone was on the same page. She said Kit would turn his back after filming stopped so she had time to get into a robe as well because he realized it had to be really uncomfortable for her otherwise. I don’t know, it was just nice to see that it turned out to be a rather positive experience for her since nudity can leave actors in such a vulnerable position of set. 

*Khal Drogo and Dany’s marriage starts out as pretty clearly nonconsensual. Eventually they reach a place where both parties are enjoying themselves and it becomes a pleasing experience for them both, but I purposely excluded them because I just can’t get over the fact that Drogo rapes Dany at first. You don’t cry and look miserable while having sex if you actually wanted to be having it at that moment. Plus, she’s only like 13 or 14 when the books start. It’s a different world and they have different norms, but I just can’t see the book version as ever being consensual because of that alone. I’m actually really glad the show made all the characters a bit older - it doesn’t make it easier to see them harmed, but at least we aren’t watching very young teenage actors constantly put into those scenes. 

I do like how Dany eventually has clearly consensual sexual relationships later on though, especially because as a Queen she holds the power and has the ability to end things whenever she wants to. And I really admire Emilia Clarke for being so firm about not wanting to do nudity unless it was necessary for the storyline. I think it’s fantastic she felt brave enough to make her thoughts known - and I do think it was brave considering it’s Hollywood and she probably feared she could lose her job. I think HBO absolutely made the right call by honoring that request. 

All that to say... I’m ultimately glad they’ve moved more away from the sexual violence and started showing the female characters as strong and equal partners in more sexual situations. I think that’s a pretty positive move, especially when coupled with so many female characters taking up powerful positions of authority in recent seasons. I don’t know if that’s how Martin or HBO always planned it or if HBO decided to really listen to viewers about the topic, but I really think it was a good call. 

Edited by VelociRapture

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TuringMachine

ok so I was just reading a fan theory about Azor Ahai / the prince that was promised and I really like it. I'll put it behind a spoiler:

Spoiler

So the theory is that Rhaegar was Azor Ahai and Jon is Lightbringer. 

Support:

  • He is a Targaryen
  • He was born (according to the books I admittedly never read) during a fire that burned down a castle, satisfying the born out of smoke and salt (salt from tears of people crying, a bit of a stretch I think)
  • Maester Aemon believed him to be Azor Ahai
  • Lightbringer was forged on Azor Ahai's 3rd attempt by sacrificing his love. Jon is Rhaegar's 3rd child, and Lyanna dies giving birth to him
  • The Night's Watch oath contains the line: "I am the sword in the darkness." so there is precedent for people being metaphorical swords. Also Jon was lord commander of the Night's Watch
  • Jon riding Rhaegal could be interpreted as Rhaegar "wielding" him
  • GRRM said he wanted a story where the hero dies at the beginning. This probably refers to Ned, but could also refer to Rhaegar dying before the story starts

Problems:

  • The born of salt part is a stretch
  • We're missing the "wakes dragon from stone" and "born as a red star bleeds" part, though they could still be revealed.  That being said, the waking dragon from stone really fits Daenerys though

 

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JenniferJuniper
On 4/15/2019 at 12:34 PM, NakedKnees said:

I don't think Jon/Dany's relationship is quite as intense as both of their past loves, so it's a bit harder for me to get into that.

Not to mention that she's his auntie and he's the only other human family she has left in the world. 

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front hugs > duggs

I was thinking today how it’s kind of strange potentially how Sansa never became pregnant by Ramsey. They were married for at least a few months right? And he raped her repeatedly I believe. I guess maybe not all types of his torture and rape could result in pregnancy, and I understand why it wouldn’t make sense from a storyline perspective. But realistically, a young married girl having a lot of (non-consensual) sex would have likely resulted in pregnancy. 

Poor Sansa. 

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NakedKnees

Great job, @VelociRapture. Love reading your character reviews. My two cents on Sansa coming from a former hater (spoiler just in case):  

Spoiler

 

I have to admit that Sansa frustrated me for a long time although she doesn't now, and I'm certainly not above internalized sexism playing a role in that. I nonetheless have to say that going back and re-watching her in season 1 is still painful for me, in a cringe-y way. I think the way she communicated with her teacher, her mom, and Arya at that time represents a lot of toxicity that's expected from femininity. Yes, she was a child, but she was still benefitting from her privileges (beauty, cis-femininity) in a way that female characters like Brienne and Arya never did, so I can see why there is so much fan sympathy there. So, I more or less stand by my stance of not cheering for Sansa from the beginning, but her arc has been incredible to watch and I agree that she's the most formidable Stark leader now.

Watching Jaime (who I now love but used to hate) is like this for me too, although his turning point is harder to pinpoint than Sansa's.

 

Yes, Yes, YES to Varys being the only one truly motivated by serving/protecting the realm. I used to feel that way about Littlefinger but that definitely changed. Interesting how Varys is also a foreigner to the realm...

Regarding sex and sexual violence in the TV series:

Spoiler

 

I don't know if this has ever been confirmed, but I think it's clear that the writers' room got more expert voices in regards to sexual violence into the mix as the show went on. Any backlash about the violently adapted sex scene at the end of the S01E01 (while still at very least statutory rape in the books) was quiet in 2011 compared to the backlash of the similar depiction of Jaime/Cersei, which Velocirapture explained above, in 2014. Some of that was likely due to it just being the pilot in 2011, but now in 2019, I think we're FINALLY getting to a place where depicting sex like that (without some nuance/explanation as to how consensual it is) would be unacceptable in a show of this caliber/visibility level.

As for good 'ol consensual sex, when the show first came out I viewed it as HBO just doing what HBO does. Looking back on the earlier seasons now, I have to admit the sex scenes are quite silly much of the time, and I'm glad the term "sexposition" (exposition using sex) emerged at some point, because that's so often what it is! "Hey, if we insert all this plot/background stuff with some titties, folks will love that!" And were they wrong?

I'm glad they've moved away from it because it unnecessarily objectified women frequently. However, I'm generally a fan of explicit feminist-friendly sex in non-pornographic media and I know not everyone is, so, grain of salt :) 

 

 

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AliceInFundyland

I was always inclined to think that Jamie's relationship with Brienne strongly influenced his character. I liked it the book. I wanted it more on screen. And that was George. So I can approve of his growth with a clear conscience. I would like to think that with Bran's powers that those two will be able to have something of a truce or understanding.

(I would also like to see Bronn sell himself back in with the good guys, but mostly because he's more fun that way)

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VelociRapture

@NakedKnees

Spoiler

I still don’t necessarily agree with people disliking young Sansa for pretty much just acting her age, but I can at least understand that view. She was 12 or 13 when the show started and a lot of kids that age can be pretty insufferable, especially when they’ve lived a charmed life and appear poised on the brink of a dazzling future. What I really don’t agree with though were the people who were militantly against Sansa strictly for naturally conforming to the standards of feminity for her culture. There are a lot of people out there who still thumb their noses at characters like Margarey and Cersei and Sansa because they aren’t running around stabbing people like Arya and Brienne are. It’s sexist for those people to assume Sansa isn’t a valuable character capable of surviving and competently playing the game simply because she honed her political power rather than her skills in armed combat. Armed combat would not have saved Sansa’s life in many of the situations she was faced with, but political and emotional intelligence did. 

The people who truly bother me are the ones still insisting Sansa is the absolute worst because she betrayed her family and caused her father's death in Season One though. To that I just say - no. The people ultimately responsible for the death of Ned Stark are the people who killed Jon Arryn and accidentally set Ned on his killer’s tail (Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn), the person who killed his dearest friend and closest ally (Cersei), the person who went back on his promise to Sansa and ordered his execution anyways (Joffrey), and the person who followed his honor rather than common sense by extending a chance to flee to Cersei and her children (Ned himself.) I think it’s just ridiculous that there are still people blaming Sansa for all that when she was still very young, hadn’t gained the political skills she has now, and really had no say in anything that was happening. The simple fact is that Arya was fortunate to escape when she did because she would have suffered far worse than Sansa did under those same circumstances. Sansa still suffered pretty horribly, but her ability to bullshit people likely kept her safer than it would have if she had Arya’s temper and inability to hide it (at least when Arya was younger.)

I like Arya as a character and I think she has provided a nice balance to Sansa over the years. I kind of hope both of them survive, but I’m also kind of tired of Arya constantly being obsessed over by fans. She’s made plenty of mistakes herself over the years and even Arya appeared fooled by Littlefinger’s manipulations last season. It was Sansa who realized something was wrong and that she should check her facts with her creepy little brother before doing something drastic. I’m actually surprised she managed to do that prior to Arya making an actual attempt on her life seeing as Arya has proven herself to be pretty impatient and rash in the not so distant past. 

This turned out way longer and more ranty than I anticipated (especially considering these are fictional characters), so I’m sorry for that. I’m not ranting against you or your opinions as I do see your point. I just think Sansa has been treated pretty unfairly by a lot of the fans for a long time. She does deserve criticism for her mistakes, but I think a lot of people take it too far and end up blaming her for stuff that wasn’t even her fault. 

 

1 hour ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I was always inclined to think that Jamie's relationship with Brienne strongly influenced his character. I liked it the book. I wanted it more on screen. And that was George. So I can approve of his growth with a clear conscience. I would like to think that with Bran's powers that those two will be able to have something of a truce or understanding.

(I would also like to see Bronn sell himself back in with the good guys, but mostly because he's more fun that way)

I agree. I think Jamie on the show is still one of the more interesting characters, but I’ve enjoyed his character and his development in the books far more. I think they really dropped the ball with that scene I mentioned earlier. It erased a lot of the progress and goodwill he had made up to that point and I feel like he’s only just really managed to get back what he lost.

Spoiler

It’ll be very interesting to see how Dany and the Starks react to him next week. I’m hoping that Dany learned a very important lesson from her treatment of the Tarlys and that she keeps in mind what she’s been told about her father - that he was insane and was about to blow up the entire city and killing him was the only way to save all those innocent people. I’m also hoping she remembers that there’s more at stake than getting personal revenge and that every able bodied fighter is going to be needed. Same with the Starks, who may rightfully want revenge for the wrongs they know he’s done to their family as well. I think you’re right that Bran won’t be interested in revenge or anything. There’s definitely some reason why he was waiting for Jamie like that, but I don’t think worldly matters like revenge really concern him anymore. 

 

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NakedKnees
Just now, VelociRapture said:

@NakedKnees

  Hide contents

I still don’t necessarily agree with people disliking young Sansa for pretty much just acting her age, but I can at least understand that view. She was 12 or 13 when the show started and a lot of kids that age can be pretty insufferable, especially when they’ve lived a charmed life and appear poised on the brink of a dazzling future. What I really don’t agree with though were the people who were militantly against Sansa strictly for naturally conforming to the standards of feminity for her culture. There are a lot of people out there who still thumb their noses at characters like Margarey and Cersei and Sansa because they aren’t running around stabbing people like Arya and Brienne are. It’s sexist for those people to assume Sansa isn’t a valuable character capable of surviving and competently playing the game simply because she honed her political power rather than her skills in armed combat. Armed combat would not have saved Sansa’s life in many of the situations she was faced with, but political and emotional intelligence did. 

The people who truly bother me are the ones still insisting Sansa is the absolute worst because she betrayed her family and caused her father's death in Season One though. To that I just say - no. The people ultimately responsible for the death of Ned Stark are the people who killed Jon Arryn and accidentally set Ned on his killer’s tail (Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn), the person who killed his dearest friend and closest ally (Cersei), the person who went back on his promise to Sansa and ordered his execution anyways (Joffrey), and the person who followed his honor rather than common sense by extending a chance to flee to Cersei and her children (Ned himself.) I think it’s just ridiculous that there are still people blaming Sansa for all that when she was still very young, hadn’t gained the political skills she has now, and really had no say in anything that was happening. The simple fact is that Arya was fortunate to escape when she did because she would have suffered far worse than Sansa did under those same circumstances. Sansa still suffered pretty horribly, but her ability to bullshit people likely kept her safer than it would have if she had Arya’s temper and inability to hide it (at least when Arya was younger.)

I like Arya as a character and I think she has provided a nice balance to Sansa over the years. I kind of hope both of them survive, but I’m also kind of tired of Arya constantly being obsessed over by fans. She’s made plenty of mistakes herself over the years and even Arya appeared fooled by Littlefinger’s manipulations last season. It was Sansa who realized something was wrong and that she should check her facts with her creepy little brother before doing something drastic. I’m actually surprised she managed to do that prior to Arya making an actual attempt on her life seeing as Arya has proven herself to be pretty impatient and rash in the not so distant past. 

This turned out way longer and more ranty than I anticipated (especially considering these are fictional characters), so I’m sorry for that. I’m not ranting against you or your opinions as I do see your point. I just think Sansa has been treated pretty unfairly by a lot of the fans for a long time. She does deserve criticism for her mistakes, but I think a lot of people take it too far and end up blaming her for stuff that wasn’t even her fault. 

 

I agree. I think Jamie on the show is still one of the more interesting characters, but I’ve enjoyed his character and his development in the books far more. I think they really dropped the ball with that scene I mentioned earlier. It erased a lot of the progress and goodwill he had made up to that point and I feel like he’s only just really managed to get back what he lost.

  Hide contents

It’ll be very interesting to see how Dany and the Starks react to him next week. I’m hoping that Dany learned a very important lesson from her treatment of the Tarlys and that she keeps in mind what she’s been told about her father - that he was insane and was about to blow up the entire city and killing him was the only way to save all those innocent people. I’m also hoping she remembers that there’s more at stake than getting personal revenge and that every able bodied fighter is going to be needed. Same with the Starks, who may rightfully want revenge for the wrongs they know he’s done to their family as well. I think you’re right that Bran won’t be interested in revenge or anything. There’s definitely some reason why he was waiting for Jamie like that, but I don’t think worldly matters like revenge really concern him anymore. 

 

This post might look a bit strange being entirely under a spoiler, haha, but here goes:

Spoiler

No worries about the length, I appreciate your details about your thoughts on Sansa! I agree that fans that think "warrior women good, otherwise bad" are vocal, present, and not at all on the mark. I also think that the GoT universe has generally punished feminine women such as Margery and Rosalyn in a way that it has not punished less feminine women like Arya and Brienne. I think it's supposed to be a pro-woman, feminist stance, but it's sloppy at best.

I don't know what I think of Cersei in this. Her "weapons" have certainly been political/intellectual rather than physical, but I also think she is where she is at largely due to ruthlessness and unapologetic motivation, which I wouldn't classify as stereotypically feminine. I'm not sure where I'd place her in the conversation about femininity. She sort of reminds me of Littlefinger or even Tyrion, who survive(d) for a long time not due to physical power but due to intellect.

I have to correct myself and mention that Sansa trying to save her father, which still occurs in season 1, is the moment that really enamored me to her. And I would argue should make ANYONE like her. She clearly was never an evil character on any level, and has refined her skills over the years, like Arya, Bran, and Dany, who also began as kids. I wish I could name more, but there is just a lot of death in this show :( People who blame her for her father's death are not reading closely enough.

I loved Arya with all my heart for a long time but I'm not happy with where the show has gone with her since going off-book. I hope GRRM has something a bit more consistent with her character to offer. I feel like after Season 4, she loses a lot of caution and a lot of dedication to the cause of becoming a "nameless (wo)man" that made her character development so good in the first place. My personal hope is that she survives the series and fully renounces being "Arya Stark" in favor of going back to Braavos and helping other people who have a similar fascination with death that she does. Not only would that resonate with me as a fan, but I just think it would be more consistent than seasons 6-7 were. I can picture her being like Maester Aemon Targaryen: from a very important family, but choosing to put other ideals above the "game." The show hasn't really done that though.

Ack, and now this is much longer than I expected! I can't find a ver batim quote, but I was really happy with the Arya/Sansa interaction in Season 7 when Arya accused Sansa of not being able to survive what she (Arya) survived, and Sansa said the same was true on her end. That hits the nail on the head for me, and I'm glad the show included it.

 

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Maggie Mae
On 4/15/2019 at 2:23 PM, singsingsing said:

And I did try watching the first episode of season 1 today, got about 3/4 of the way through and gave up as I just could not get into it (same thing happened with the book). Shame, as it's a fun concept and there should be a lot of things I like about it, but I guess it's just not my jam! 

The first few episodes have a slightly different feel to them. 

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VelociRapture

Season premiere musings. Read at your own risk:

Spoiler

Ok, so I’ve had some time to think about the episode. I think it was a relatively good one overall and should set things up nicely for the rest of the season. That said...

I just can’t with Dany and Jon. I get the scene with the dragons because its further proof he’s a Targaryen. And I get the awkward rom-com scene where they make out ( 🤢 ) because it drives home how young they actually are and is supposed to make us feel bad about how they’re about to be torn apart or something. I don’t actually feel bad about that because incest, but it was a solid enough try. Their actual characters though, I just can’t with either of them anymore. 

First, you’ve got Dany who appears to have a horrible case of, “EVERYONE MUST WORSHIP THE GODDAMN GROUND I WALK ON!” She got mortally offended over the fact that Sansa wasn’t immediately offering to be BFFs, despite the fact that Sansa did her job by welcoming her and has every single reason not to trust a Southerner she has never met before. And it pissed me off to no end how she made an implied threat to Sansa’s life to Jon when she made that comment about how, “if she can’t respect me-“ Dude! Sansa welcomed you into her home and acknowledged you as Queen. She doesn’t need to be friendly and she has every right to ask pretty important logistical questions considering she’s probably planning for the long term survival of her people - how are they going to keep everyone fed if the White Walkers are defeated and they then have to fight another war with Cersei?! What about after the war with Cersei?! Asking how they’re supposed to feed an unexpected army and two dragons is kind of completely reasonable. The only thing Dany is entitled to is passing civility at this point and that’s exactly what she got. 

And I swear, if she tries offing Jamie for killing her father - who was literally about to commit mass murder against his own people - after that scene with Samwell Tarly then I’ll officially be good with her dying. It’ll show she’s incapable of learning valuable lessons and that she’s prioritizing a petty need for revenge over preparing for an actual war. I think the teaser for episode two is just setting it up to look like that’s going to happen and she’ll instead decide not to kill Jamie, but I’m finding myself less impressed with Dany the longer the show goes on and it wouldn’t surprise me if she actually does try to kill him. 

And Jon is just as bad. Maybe even worse. He goes running off on all sorts of adventures and then doesn’t even have the decency to consult Sansa - who has been running things in his absence, quite possibly better than he would be doing - about any of the huge decisions he’s made. He just expects her to slap on a smile and go along with everything he decides and then has the audacity to get pissed at her for not doing so. It took Arya standing up for Sansa for Jon to even slightly pull his head out his ass and start to realize he’s not only badly underestimated Sansa, but he’s also been acting like a complete jackass to her too - and that’s a big mistake considering Sansa has been his biggest and most reliable ally through recent seasons. And I’m not even sure he really did realize any of that because he’s just that much of an idiot. With his recent revelation that his Daddy is actually his Uncle and his Aunt is actually his Mommy and he’s been sleeping with his real Aunt... well, I have a feeling that more crap is going to get left to Sansa because homeboy doesn’t seem like he’s actually capable of dealing with multiple crises effectively (and to be fair, that’s a pretty massive piece of information to try and process, but still.) 

And now I’m done ranting. My favorite scenes of the episode where definitely the scene where Tormund yells that he’s always had blue eyes and the scene where Tyrion and Sansa reminisce about their marriage. It was awesome to see a male character not just acknowledge Sansa’s ability to survive, but admire her for the skills she’s developed as well. And Sansa’s line about how Joffrey's wedding had its moments* was definitely the funniest of the night for me.

*In response to Tyrion saying it was a miserable affair. I laughed so hard at Sansa’s response because it’s pretty much exactly what everyone in the audience was thinking as Joffrey died.

 

Edited by VelociRapture

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Bethella

@VelociRapture I agree with almost everything you said with one caveat 

Spoiler

I’m pretty sure Jamie survives the trial/confrontation because there are promo pics of him in northern armor and we haven’t seen that yet (unless they were a deliberate misdirect?). So I’m assuming that they’re taking the expedient way of letting him fight and the survivors can sort it out later.

 

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AliceInFundyland

My thoughts on Jaime.

Spoiler

Jaime has to stick around.

This is not his time. Plot wise he needs to have at least one more confrontation with Cersei (I’d think)...I could maybe see him dying a noble death later. It will be in a fan pleasing sort of way. Maybe when he reconciles with Cersei and has met the baby or something. Or, he keeps the baby and gets to be in charge of the Red Keep.

Maybe - Tyrion and baby get Red Keep with Varys to help. 

In general, Dany listens to Tyrion. Tyrion will listen to Jaime. Both will have insight on Cersei. Thus making him an asset.

 

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Jinder Roles

My predictions on who will survive and why. 

Spoiler

Sansa: Alive. She’s learned enough from her experiences (especially Littlefinger and Cersei) that she’ll be a great asset in rebuilding a better world. 

Danaerys: Dead. She and Jon cannot both live. She’s good at conquering, bad at ruling. Her purpose is to provide dragons for the fight and legitimize Jon’s claim to the throne. I predict she will be hella annoying before she dies. 

Jon: this knucklehead will live and be king. He is the song of Ice and Fire (I actually think he’s Lightbringer and Rhaegar was Azor Ahai...GOT prophecies are convoluted metaphors)

Cersei: Very Dead. Sis, doesn’t care about survival, only spite. she’ll  go out in the most scornful way. It will be epic. 

Arya: Dead. The best use of Arya is to have her sacrifice herself. It would be heart wrenching yet satisfying. Plus, all she knows how to do is destabilize and destroy. She serves no purpose after the defeat the NK.

Sam: Alive. Someone has to write all this down so men don’t forget. 

Tyrion: sadly, dead. He’ll betray Danaerys for the greater good and pay the price. 

Melisandre: Dead, cause she said so and I believe her. I can’t decide if she was fucking with Varys, or if he’ll die too. I hope not. 

Idk about Bran, Jaime or Varys.

 I hope Gendry, Jorah, Missandei and Davos love, but idk about that either. 

Oh and Grey Worm is dead for sure. 

 

 

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GreyhoundFan

On a much lighter note, this popped up in my suggested videos on YouTube. It made me laugh because only Sesame Street could do GoT for children:

 

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TuringMachine

@Jinder Roles I mostly agree with your assessment but with some comments:

Spoiler

As far as I'm concerned there are two possible rulers: Jon or Sansa. I'm thinking either Jon will be king or he will die sacrificing himself to defeat the night king. Honestly I think Sansa is the better option for the reasons you and @VelociRapture said.

I'm also on team Jon is lightbringer.

I 100% agree with your thoughts on Dany, Cersei, Sam, Melisandre, and Greyworm

I really hope Tyrion survives because I think he'd be a good hand to whoever is on the throne, but I could also see him dying.

Varys is in the same boat. I really hope he lives because I think he is so good for the people, but what Melisandre said have me worried.

Dido for Davos. I'd be really really sad if he dies

Arya I'd love to see go find out what's west of westeros but I totally see your point.

I'm also firmly on team Jamie kills Cersei.

 

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JenniferJuniper

I think little Sam is the prince who was promised.

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