Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath

[MarblesMom]

Should we start a religion of chocolate, coloring and wine?  

I think we might have some immediate followers/initiates.  

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

Tonight's episode is about fundraisers and the PR department.  This guy, Mark Headley,  got into SeaOrg at 15 and made only $25,000 in 15 years or so.  He said he began to see the light about the Co$ when he had to check out the video facilities in all these new buildings.  He said they were all ghost towns; IOW, no one was there, no Co$ staff and no parishioners.  Nobody. Now Leah and Mark Rathbun are talking to Mark and his wife Claire.  Claire's bringing up the policy of coerced abortions in SeaOrg.  Married couples in SeaOrg were forbidden to get pregnant.  If a married woman found out that she was pregnant, she would be expected to have an abortion ASAP.  Claire experienced this herself and she still grieves for that baby she had taken from her.

It's Mike Rinder who's working with Leah. 

I know, I've mixed 'em up before, too. 

[quiversR4hunting]

-Warning, long post-

I know A&E and TLC are different stations but in the back of my mind I have compared the difference between the makings of “Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath” show with the Duggar shows. The Duggar shows do recap after recap even after the commercials. @Buzzard can attest that the bulk of the show you watch twice. And most of the “plot” is staged.

In contrast, the only repeated part of Leah’s show is the intro, the rest of the hour is packed with information. Granted, Leah’s show is set up as an interview not following her family around doing stuff. Last night they showed some PI’s stalking the hotel where Leah was staying in Colorado. But they didn’t belabor that point nor was that the 2nd plot line. The show showed the video of the 2 guys filming them, they confronted said men and then they did a black screen with voiceover explaining that they found out that one guy owns a PI company and the other guy was driving the PI’s wife’s vehicle. They illustrated that they are getting followed for doing this series but the rest of the show was all about Headley plight and flight.

Marc Headley also wrote a book “Blown for Good” it is/was self-published. Many of the people that Leah has interviewed have written books, doubt they got rich on the books but it could have been a revenue stream. I know many of us watching the series wonder how do these people, with nothing and many times without an education, make it with no contacts and no education on the outside. Many of them do have skills because they have been worked to the bone in CO$ but how do they translate that into job interviews or resumes? I would love her to tackle the question of how they make it on the outside however CO$ would be watching and probably try to put further restrictions on these people.

Questions about the lawsuits. Leah and the others keep asking how do we stop CO$? Have you sued? Have you presses charges against the abuse? Etc. Mike Rinder answered part of it last night about the 1st amendment and the separation of church and state. I wonder why or if the people that have left have tried to sue for back wages. The information that Marc Headley gave last night was in 15 years he was paid a total of $25,000. Why can’t they sue for back wages? If all the people that left sued for back wages, wouldn’t that help put a dent in the CO$ money machine? Also, sue against the billion year contract. 1 minors can’t sign contracts, 2 the contract has got to be non-binding, some attorney can figure that out.

Because I like to figure out numbers I figured this out for Marc Headley’s money he is due if only paid minimum wage for his 15 years. Now he did IT work so his salary should be more but for argument’s sake, I went with minimum wage and found CA history of minimum wage*. I did the highest amount for the year, I didn’t figure it out month to month for each time the wage changed. I also put his hours at 60/ week. 40 straight time and 20 at time and ½. I did not account for taxes however I did take 1/3 off for room and board. Just for Marc it is almost a quarter of a million dollars. And from I glean from the interviews the hours per week are most likely more like 80 hours/week not 60 (40 hours of OT would put Marc upwards of $300k after R&B).

After a lawsuit over wages is successful, couldn’t the IRS then go after them for not paying taxes on employees? The employees at my church and the Catholic schools run by the diocese still pay payroll taxes on the employee wages. The Catholic Church doesn’t claim all the people are preachers and thus exempt from social security taxes.

*source http://www.dir.ca.gov/iwc/MinimumWageHistory.htm

Here is my chart (hidden to make my long post a little shorter):

Spoiler

[Howl]

I would think the legal Achilles heel for Co$ would be abuse of minors in Sea Org, which could lead to criminal charges.  However, how would police/FBI gather information for prosecution from a closed system?  

Looking at Co$ history of using legal action to harass people, it's daunting to think about engaging in civil legal action against them.  Co$ has unlimited legal resources. 

[DaisyD]

Look up "Operation Snow White" for why the government doesn't really fuck with them too much. The upshot being that they still got tax exempt status after all of that.

They touched on "Operation Freakout" on the AMA episode. Paulette Cooper is one hell of a ballsy lady.

[Howl]

5 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

Look up "Operation Snow White" for why the government doesn't really fuck with them too much. The upshot being that they still got tax exempt status after all of that.

They touched on "Operation Freakout" on the AMA episode. Paulette Cooper is one hell of a ballsy lady.

I still can't fully grok (!) the extent of Operation Snow White.  If that didn't expose Co$ as a fundamentally corrupt criminal enterprise, nothing else will.  David Miscavige (Chairman of the Board or CoB) should be renamed Capo of the Board.  

I wonder if MIscavige has actually killed anyone (like his wife).  It's certainly not beyond possibility, given reports of his physical violence and manic volatility.  

[PennySycamore]

8 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

It's Mike Rinder who's working with Leah. 

I know, I've mixed 'em up before, too. 

Thanks for the correction, @MamaJunebug!   I don't know if it was just two guys with the initials MR or the fact that I was writing late, but I totally goofed -and that was after looking up Marty Rathbun on wikipedia and noticing that this didn't look like the same guy.

[DaisyD]

Wikipedia is a gold mine of information on $ci (probably because they've been banned from editing Wikipedia). While reading about all of the "ops" it occurred to me that they all sound like they were planned by teenagers because none of these people ever went to high school. The whole organization is run by people who stopped maturing in junior high.

[SilverBeach]

Even within religions, human rights abuses should not be tolerated by the government. Or any other crimes committed.

[seattlechic]

ok kids, I requested the book from the library. Excitement. 

 

I hate not being able to watch the show. But your updates are hilarious.

[PennySycamore]

14 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

Mark Rathbun just explained that the First Amendment basically means that there is not much way to legally rein in anything that claims to be a religion

DAMN!! I made the same mistake twice, and in different posts.  I meant Mike Rinder, dammit!

[mirele]

On 12/21/2016 at 2:47 PM, MamaJunebug said:

Tom DeVocht!

Been reading about him for years ... heartcrushing to see a man realizing his life has been wasted. No education, certainly not a fine home, albeit clean and dry. Was the baby his? Talk about trying to catch up. Poor guy,  his sense of guilt. Bless him. 

I'm friends with Tom on Facebook. The baby, Ellie, is his and she's an absolute delight. He's always posting pictures and videos of her. You can tell she adores her daddy and he's absolutly besotted  with her. I don't think, given that he spent so much of his life in the Sea Org, that Tom expected to have children.  And he's very determined to do right by Ellie.

[Peas n carrots]

-Warning, long post-
I know A&E and TLC are different stations but in the back of my mind I have compared the difference between the makings of “Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath” show with the Duggar shows. The Duggar shows do recap after recap even after the commercials.@Buzzard can attest that the bulk of the show you watch twice. And most of the “plot” is staged.
In contrast, the only repeated part of Leah’s show is the intro, the rest of the hour is packed with information. Granted, Leah’s show is set up as an interview not following her family around doing stuff. Last night they showed some PI’s stalking the hotel where Leah was staying in Colorado. But they didn’t belabor that point nor was that the 2nd plot line. The show showed the video of the 2 guys filming them, they confronted said men and then they did a black screen with voiceover explaining that they found out that one guy owns a PI company and the other guy was driving the PI’s wife’s vehicle. They illustrated that they are getting followed for doing this series but the rest of the show was all about Headley plight and flight.
Marc Headley also wrote a book “Blown for Good” it is/was self-published. Many of the people that Leah has interviewed have written books, doubt they got rich on the books but it could have been a revenue stream. I know many of us watching the series wonder how do these people, with nothing and many times without an education, make it with no contacts and no education on the outside. Many of them do have skills because they have been worked to the bone in CO$ but how do they translate that into job interviews or resumes? I would love her to tackle the question of how they make it on the outside however CO$ would be watching and probably try to put further restrictions on these people.
Questions about the lawsuits. Leah and the others keep asking how do we stop CO$? Have you sued? Have you presses charges against the abuse? Etc. Mike Rinder answered part of it last night about the 1st amendment and the separation of church and state. I wonder why or if the people that have left have tried to sue for back wages. The information that Marc Headley gave last night was in 15 years he was paid a total of $25,000. Why can’t they sue for back wages? If all the people that left sued for back wages, wouldn’t that help put a dent in the CO$ money machine? Also, sue against the billion year contract. 1 minors can’t sign contracts, 2 the contract has got to be non-binding, some attorney can figure that out.
Because I like to figure out numbers I figured this out for Marc Headley’s money he is due if only paid minimum wage for his 15 years. Now he did IT work so his salary should be more but for argument’s sake, I went with minimum wage and found CA history of minimum wage*. I did the highest amount for the year, I didn’t figure it out month to month for each time the wage changed. I also put his hours at 60/ week. 40 straight time and 20 at time and ½. I did not account for taxes however I did take 1/3 off for room and board. Just for Marc it is almost a quarter of a million dollars. And from I glean from the interviews the hours per week are most likely more like 80 hours/week not 60 (40 hours of OT would put Marc upwards of $300k after R&.
After a lawsuit over wages is successful, couldn’t the IRS then go after them for not paying taxes on employees? The employees at my church and the Catholic schools run by the diocese still pay payroll taxes on the employee wages. The Catholic Church doesn’t claim all the people are preachers and thus exempt from social security taxes.
*source http://www.dir.ca.gov/iwc/MinimumWageHistory.htm
Here is my chart (hidden to make my long post a little shorter):
Spoiler

$ci is notoriously litigious. They infiltrated the IRS, not to mention the Time Magazine lawsuit, Paulette Cooper etc. $ci doesn't care if they win the lawsuit or not - they want to make it long, painful and expensive for their former members. With the exception of a few individuals most people do not have the time, resources or stamina to take them on in the court of law.

[Cleopatra7]

6 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Even within religions, human rights abuses should not be tolerated by the government. Or any other crimes committed.

Aside from the First Amendment issues and Scientology's notorious legal and "dirty tricks" behavior, I think there is also a general reluctance to interfer with fringe religious groups for fear of another Jonestown or Waco. Tony Ortega also had a good blog entry a few days ago about how conservative Christians are supporting Scientology because they perceive an attack against any religion to be a Trojan Horse that can be used to attack their particular religion. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Aside from the First Amendment issues and Scientology's notorious legal and "dirty tricks" behavior, I think there is also a general reluctance to interfer with fringe religious groups for fear of another Jonestown or Waco. Tony Ortega also had a good blog entry a few days ago about how conservative Christians are supporting Scientology because they perceive an attack against any religion to be a Trojan Horse that can be used to attack their particular religion. 

Anybody can practice any religion they want, but forcing abortions is a human rights violation. Other crimes such as rape and child abuse also should not be tolerated under the color of religion or the first amendment.

Jonestown and Waco were learning experiences. I would think that similar situations would be handled differently now.

There will always be a chance of things going sideways when interjecting the state into organizations run by the unhinged. But that doesn't mean that the rights of regular people in these orgs should be disregarded. Many in Jonestown did not want to die but were murdered.

I'm a Christian, as liberal as they come, and once again I am appalled by any Christian that would support Scientology. Yes, it inspires fervor that can also be found in devotees of MLM scams and self-help pop psychology orgs like Landmark Education. But those aren't churches and neither is Scientology. Worst IRS determination ever.

[Gobsmacked]

21 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

Should we start a religion of chocolate, coloring and wine?  

I think we might have some immediate followers/initiates.  

That would be brilliant! A large lounge, real log fires, chocolate fountains and marshmallows, hot chocolate with the works, a constant supply of sharpened pencils, ( hate doing that, I always break them), lots of comfy settees with cushions, comfy slippers, waiters to serve the wine at just the correct temperature, side lamps positioned correctly. 

A chocolate orange on entry.

Im in.

[PennySycamore]

One thing I loved in the repeat of last week's episode where they talked to Ron Miscaviage.  David had given his dad a Kindle and had forgotten that Kindles were capable of internet connection.  Ron used Google to look up criticism of the Co$.  I think Ron was already questioning things, but googling did it.  I love that something that David gave his dad convinced his dad to blow.

[mirele]

The Headleys did sue Scientology over the forced labor and forced abortions, but their case was dismissed.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/scientology-wins-appeal-in-lawsuit-alleging-forced-labor-and-forced-abortions-6687637

They ended up owing Scientology nearly $43K in court costs.  The Headleys asked Scientology to waive the costs. Scientology refused, instead offering a "deal":

1. "The Headleys agree to a full and permanent disengagement between themselves on one hand and CSI/RTC on the other hand. This would include no further anti-scientology activity under any circumstances at any time, including media or internet postings disparaging Scientology or scientologists."
2. "The Headleys will turn over to CSI/RTC all rights to the 'Blown for Good Book'."
3. "The Headleys agree to discuss with CSI and RTC all of their contacts with Marty Rathbun and any others involved in disparaging CSI and RTC, including any media contacts."

You can read more in the article, but the cult was unrelenting:  they wanted their money. The Headleys sold everything, including a vehicle, Marc's tools and the kids' swing set to get the cult monkey off their back.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/scientology-to-marc-and-claire-headley-spy-for-us-and-well-forget-the-43k-you-owe-6728582

While it couldn't get back everything they'd sold, the ex-Scientologist and Scientology critic community banded together and raised $36K to help the Headleys.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/voice-readers-raise-thousands-for-couple-that-refused-to-spy-for-scientology-6659256

 

So yeah, the Headleys tried to get repayment for what happened, but they were stymied by "but they're a religion." Grrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Inky]

I thought that the rationale for paying pennies per hour to people in the Sea Org was scientology claiming that they were like nuns - who have taken a vow of poverty.

However, the Freeloader Debt kind of contradicts that - imagine that - a contradiction in scientology! I don't see the Catholic Church going after nuns who leave the order with a bill for their training, food and lodging while in the order.

[quiversR4hunting]

18 hours ago, Peas n carrots said:

$ci is notoriously litigious. They infiltrated the IRS, not to mention the Time Magazine lawsuit, Paulette Cooper etc. $ci doesn't care if they win the lawsuit or not - they want to make it long, painful and expensive for their former members. With the exception of a few individuals most people do not have the time, resources or stamina to take them on in the court of law.

 

this is so sad. Maybe Leah can help with costs with the filming of this docushow.

[Palimpsest]

@PennySycamore, it's very easy to get Rathbun and Rinder confused, I've done it myself.  They were both featured in most of the coverage of the top executives who have blown, starting with the St Petersburg Times expose.  They are different people, and apparently at different stages of recovery from the cult.  Marty Rathbun seems very erratic while Rinder seems to have his head on straight these days.  I don't expect people to make instant recovery from the brainwashing, but Rathbun's recent comments are worrying.

I was relieved to see in this latest episode that Marc Headley finally spelled out that people should just walk away from Scientology and that it isn't worth "trying to save."  As I said, finally!  There is nothing good about $cientology.  I don't think even Rinder has said that publicly before.

What has always puzzled me is how Miscavige managed to take over the cult after L.Ron shuffled off this mortal coil.  Granted he was the main contact person for L.Ron when he went into hiding, but he, Rinder, Rathbun, and others were practically contemporaries - how did he manage the takeover and boot out senior cult members like Heber Jentzsch.  He was all of 27 when he took over the reins.  And why the holy heck did (and do) people allow Miscavige to beat them up in public?  Does Miscavige even believe in the lies he is peddling and the whole propaganda machine?

Speaking of that, do any of the top ranked Scientologists really believe in the Xenu stuff?  I was disappointed that Rinder and Remini rather dodged that question the other week.  

[quiversR4hunting]

13 hours ago, mirele said:

The Headleys did sue Scientology over the forced labor and forced abortions, but their case was dismissed

One of the things they sued for was human trafficking. I am not an attorney but I wonder if they sued for back wages through OSHA or whatever government alphabet soup would be over that portion.

[nausicaa]

36 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

What has always puzzled me is how Miscavige managed to take over the cult after L.Ron shuffled off this mortal coil.  Granted he was the main contact person for L.Ron when he went into hiding, but he, Rinder, Rathbun, and others were practically contemporaries - how did he manage the takeover and boot out senior cult members like Heber Jentzsch.  He was all of 27 when he took over the reins.  And why the holy heck did (and do) people allow Miscavige to beat them up in public?  Does Miscavige even believe in the lies he is peddling and the whole propaganda machine?

Speaking of that, do any of the top ranked Scientologists really believe in the Xenu stuff?  I was disappointed that Rinder and Remini rather dodged that question the other week.  

I find the inner power machinations fascinating as well and also wonder this about Miscavige. It mirrors my questions about all totalitarian organizations, why don't the others get together and overthrow him? I realize the resulting power vacuum might actually make things worse (well, for governments at least, for the CoS it would likely just fall apart) but it would seem to be human nature to take down the one puny guy making everyone's lives miserable. 

I believe in one of the "Overtime" pieces, Remini and Rinder say no one actually believes the Xenu stuff. Unfortunately they don't go into more detail than that. Hubbard wrote it as the central concept of Scientologist theology. Do they claim it's metaphorical? Or throw it out altogether?

And not to sound too mercenary, but I am surprised they force abortions, since wouldn't a church want more followers? Why wouldn't they have some day care/brainwashing program for the kids while their parents are working?

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

And not to sound too mercenary, but I am surprised they force abortions, since wouldn't a church want more followers? Why wouldn't they have some day care/brainwashing program for the kids while their parents are working?

The forced abortions are per a *new* Miscavige rule and it only pertains to Sea Org members, I believe.  In the old days under L.Ron, Sea Org members did have children who were sent to nurseries staffed by teens.  Both Leah's book and Jenna Miscavige Hill discuss this in some detail.

I suspect that DM really doesn't care about expanding or growing his little kingdom so long as he is kept in the lap of luxury, beating people up, and having them kiss his boots daily.  Whether he was always an abusive megalomaniac or Co$ made him one is another question.

[Peas n carrots]

@PennySycamore, it's very easy to get Rathbun and Rinder confused, I've done it myself.  They were both featured in most of the coverage of the top executives who have blown, starting with the St Petersburg Times expose.  They are different people, and apparently at different stages of recovery from the cult.  Marty Rathbun seems very erratic while Rinder seems to have his head on straight these days.  I don't expect people to make instant recovery from the brainwashing, but Rathbun's recent comments are worrying.
I was relieved to see in this latest episode that Marc Headley finally spelled out that people should just walk away from Scientology and that it isn't worth "trying to save."  As I said, finally!  There is nothing good about $cientology.  I don't think even Rinder has said that publicly before.
What has always puzzled me is how Miscavige managed to take over the cult after L.Ron shuffled off this mortal coil.  Granted he was the main contact person for L.Ron when he went into hiding, but he, Rinder, Rathbun, and others were practically contemporaries - how did he manage the takeover and boot out senior cult members like Heber Jentzsch.  He was all of 27 when he took over the reins.  And why the holy heck did (and do) people allow Miscavige to beat them up in public?  Does Miscavige even believe in the lies he is peddling and the whole propaganda machine?
Speaking of that, do any of the top ranked Scientologists really believe in the Xenu stuff?  I was disappointed that Rinder and Remini rather dodged that question the other week.  

Agreed Rathbun's reactions have been worrying as of late. I wonder if DM somehow made an offer to Marty to get Monique to drop the suit in a deal similar to the one the Headley's were given. I think $ci has damaged that man permanently.

Rinder - I think he is a bit of a hard read as he isn't typically the most emotionally demonstrative person. I'm not sure if he was stunted from his involvement in $ci from a very young age, or he is naturally that way or a bit of both. However it was good to see him breakdown on the episode with Mary Kahn - there apparently is a lot of guilt and sadness under the surface. I haven't seen him say anything about any tenants of $ci being worth saving, but his actions indicate someone who has no illusion the church can be saved.

Leah, damn that woman is amazing. I hope she expands doing this kind of work beyond $ci in the future into other groups who are being oppressed.