Doug Philips is a tool (at best) and the now defunct Vision Forum - Part 3

[Khendra]

I always thought gossip was spreading rumors, or else sharing private info that wasn't meant to be made public.  If we're discussing public social media posts and public knowledge, that is fair game, no?

Contrast this with Jordan Niednagel's very public post in late 2015 about a phone conversation he had with another guy about their sexual fantasies about women other than their wives.  He tried to justify it wasn't gossip because the guy agreed to have it shared, but the guy's wife -- whom he said would have been devastated to find out such a conversation -- was not asked if it was okay for such a thing to be shared.

Now that definitely crosses a line.

[CelticSwanNordicSun]

@MamaJunebug thank you. I'm happy to answer what I can. I try to tread lightly because I'm still involved with many from vf and other conservative homeschooling families. I had a blog for awhile that actually got trolled by a former vfer so badly my personal Facebook was found and I got locked out. Both sides can scare me at times. My ex husband (he helped me escape at 17) consistently encourages me to reach out though and try to break away. Anyways, thank you all again for the welcome and please feel free to ask questions! 

[Khendra]

23 minutes ago, CelticSwanNordicSun said:

@MamaJunebug thank you. I'm happy to answer what I can. I try to tread lightly because I'm still involved with many from vf and other conservative homeschooling families. I had a blog for awhile that actually got trolled by a former vfer so badly my personal Facebook was found and I got locked out. Both sides can scare me at times. My ex husband (he helped me escape at 17) consistently encourages me to reach out though and try to break away. Anyways, thank you all again for the welcome and please feel free to ask questions! 

@CelticSwanNordicSun

1. What do the VFers think of us everyday conservative Christian folks -- you know, the ones who also try to take the Bible at its Word, but who may have women in the family who work as teachers in the public school system, or may take birth control within marriage, or may get a college education?  Are we considered lesser Christians, fake Christians, etc.?

2. Why all the justification of sexual sin?

3. Why the assumption that women don't also struggle with sexual sin? Just because something might be a little less statistically common, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

4. How far do the restrictions of worldliness go?  Is all television banned?  All sports?  All magazines?  Any trips to the bookstore of the grocery store where entertainment is exposed?  If so, do you guys get your groceries only through those special organic places?  Is it a sin to eat a genetically engineered and mass produced tater tot?

Whoops, #4 had a bunch of questions in one. 

I just get the impression that the VF crowd was super cultic and had zillions of restrictions that make even the average conservative Christian go, "Would you take the legalistic leash off people once in awhile?"

Generally the case?

[MamaJunebug]

5 hours ago, Khendra said:

 

I always thought gossip was spreading rumors, or else sharing private info that wasn't meant to be made public.  If we're discussing public social media posts and public knowledge, that is fair game, no?

Contrast this with Jordan Niednagel's very public post in late 2015 about a phone conversation he had with another guy about their sexual fantasies about women other than their wives.  He tried to justify it wasn't gossip because the guy agreed to have it shared, but the guy's wife -- whom he said would have been devastated to find out such a conversation -- was not asked if it was okay for such a thing to be shared.

Now that definitely crosses a line.

 

Your definition of gossip is the same as mine!  FWIW. 

To the bolded: I'm just glad I don't have a full stomach as I read that!  What a jerkwad thing to do. 

[Mrs. Bean]

6 hours ago, CelticSwanNordicSun said:

@MamaJunebug thank you. I'm happy to answer what I can. 

I should probably be asking this question in the Bradrick thread but since you're posting here I shall ask. What's the "word on the street" among the VF/NCFIC community regarding the Peter and Kelly's divorce? 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

18 minutes ago, Mrs. Bean said:

I should probably be asking this question in the Bradrick thread but since you're posting here I shall ask. What's the "word on the street" among the VF/NCFIC community regarding the Peter and Kelly's divorce? 

In my circles at least, no one is talking about it openly yet. 

[CelticSwanNordicSun]

@Khendra I'll do my best to answer your questions, though I want to be clear that I was just a child growing up in VF not a parent so my perceptions may not be entirely correct (PS I'm 27 now I left home at 15 and got married the first time at 17).

1. My understanding (and I've seen this in many conservative groups) that there is a belief of "right" and "wrong" Christianity. While they may not say they believe in works, they really do. You must live a certain way to truly be Christian. Ironically, my grandfather was a minister and I inherited many of his lecture books....I don't know a single Christian who lives the way they did during the time the Bible was written but that might be because we aren't in that time anymore

2. As for sexual sin, it comes down to the age old "boys will be boys" concept. Men are considered to be less strong in this area which is odd considering the whole system hinges on men being strong, faithful and leaders.

3. Women on the other hand are delicate princesses. They could never want to do something icky unless they were manipulated (by the Devil). This is actually an area I still struggle with. I was brought up to believe I wouldn't struggle and guess what? I do!

4. Restrictions seem to vary from family to family. I grew up without television for the most part but others did not. I was allowed to read Harry Potter (horrors!) others were not. I would say that VF had some guidelines that some took more seriously than others. That's kind of the nature of humans though, we like rules and expectations because then we can win. Personally, I think this is where any school of thought fails. When an idea, philosophy or belief turns into a competition it's lost it's true meaning. Having known Beall and her children, I don't think they started with the intent of hurting anyone. As time marched on though, what started as a simple idea of wholesome toys and books, turned into a massive following with some truly insane people. On the topic of the groceries though, our family had a garden as did every VF family I knew. Every child had their own tools and were taught basic concepts including how to cook in the kitchen. Much of what I experienced was no different from what I've learned about Montessori or Waldorf educations, but  it's the beliefs that make me nervous. If you came to my house, you'd probably think it still looked like a VF house: I have lots of florals, tea sets, pretty dolls and leather bound books. I still dress in semi vintage clothing (as do my children by my son picks it out lol I never forced him) and many of my activities/hobbies would still be accepted in the community....the difference though are the ideals, the basics of life that I teach my children and live by today.

I hope that helps some, I didn't have too much time to write this all out (my baby has been screaming all morning) but please don't hesitate to comment or follow up with more questions! I'll continue to do my best to shed light as I can

[CelticSwanNordicSun]

@Mrs. Bean no one has mentioned anything of it at all. I had no idea it happened at all other than a post here. I have a group of girl friends from VF that I still chat with. We all discuss our marriages but no one has mentioned Kelly at all. To be honest though, the general way I've seen things work out is that everyone pretends it didn't happen. Whichever spouse stays true to the group is usually accepted back in some form so long as they toe the line. This is what happened with my mom and then me after our divorces. Mine was played off as a young and dumb mistake of a lost child (prodigal daughter). It will be interesting to see which side ends up being taken here.

[Howl]

@CelticSwanNordicSun, those were two insightful and fascinating posts.  Thanks so much for indulging our curiosity! 

[CelticSwanNordicSun]

@Howl it's truly my pleasure. I'll try to stop by and answer what I can from time to time but like I mentioned...I'm still fairly involved in the community so I'm trying to be careful lol (going rogue y'all!) 

I feel the need to insert one of the corny commercial ads from the old films? 

"In a world where former VF kids go rogue....there was a community that welcomed them: FreeJinger. Find it online to save your sanity!"

[Khendra]

8 hours ago, CelticSwanNordicSun said:

@Khendra I'll do my best to answer your questions, though I want to be clear that I was just a child growing up in VF not a parent so my perceptions may not be entirely correct (PS I'm 27 now I left home at 15 and got married the first time at 17).

1. My understanding (and I've seen this in many conservative groups) that there is a belief of "right" and "wrong" Christianity. While they may not say they believe in works, they really do. You must live a certain way to truly be Christian. Ironically, my grandfather was a minister and I inherited many of his lecture books....I don't know a single Christian who lives the way they did during the time the Bible was written but that might be because we aren't in that time anymore

2. As for sexual sin, it comes down to the age old "boys will be boys" concept. Men are considered to be less strong in this area which is odd considering the whole system hinges on men being strong, faithful and leaders.

3. Women on the other hand are delicate princesses. They could never want to do something icky unless they were manipulated (by the Devil). This is actually an area I still struggle with. I was brought up to believe I wouldn't struggle and guess what? I do!

4. Restrictions seem to vary from family to family. I grew up without television for the most part but others did not. I was allowed to read Harry Potter (horrors!) others were not. I would say that VF had some guidelines that some took more seriously than others. That's kind of the nature of humans though, we like rules and expectations because then we can win. Personally, I think this is where any school of thought fails. When an idea, philosophy or belief turns into a competition it's lost it's true meaning. Having known Beall and her children, I don't think they started with the intent of hurting anyone. As time marched on though, what started as a simple idea of wholesome toys and books, turned into a massive following with some truly insane people. On the topic of the groceries though, our family had a garden as did every VF family I knew. Every child had their own tools and were taught basic concepts including how to cook in the kitchen. Much of what I experienced was no different from what I've learned about Montessori or Waldorf educations, but  it's the beliefs that make me nervous. If you came to my house, you'd probably think it still looked like a VF house: I have lots of florals, tea sets, pretty dolls and leather bound books. I still dress in semi vintage clothing (as do my children by my son picks it out lol I never forced him) and many of my activities/hobbies would still be accepted in the community....the difference though are the ideals, the basics of life that I teach my children and live by today.

I hope that helps some, I didn't have too much time to write this all out (my baby has been screaming all morning) but please don't hesitate to comment or follow up with more questions! I'll continue to do my best to shed light as I can

Thanks for sharing.  This was a thoughtful post that confirmed much of what I suspected.

[Othello]

On 2/9/2017 at 6:12 AM, CelticSwanNordicSun said:

@Khendra I'll do my best to answer your questions, though I want to be clear that I was just a child growing up in VF not a parent so my perceptions may not be entirely correct (PS I'm 27 now I left home at 15 and got married the first time at 17).

1. My understanding (and I've seen this in many conservative groups) that there is a belief of "right" and "wrong" Christianity. While they may not say they believe in works, they really do. You must live a certain way to truly be Christian. Ironically, my grandfather was a minister and I inherited many of his lecture books....I don't know a single Christian who lives the way they did during the time the Bible was written but that might be because we aren't in that time anymore

2. As for sexual sin, it comes down to the age old "boys will be boys" concept. Men are considered to be less strong in this area which is odd considering the whole system hinges on men being strong, faithful and leaders.

3. Women on the other hand are delicate princesses. They could never want to do something icky unless they were manipulated (by the Devil). This is actually an area I still struggle with. I was brought up to believe I wouldn't struggle and guess what? I do!

4. Restrictions seem to vary from family to family. I grew up without television for the most part but others did not. I was allowed to read Harry Potter (horrors!) others were not. I would say that VF had some guidelines that some took more seriously than others. That's kind of the nature of humans though, we like rules and expectations because then we can win. Personally, I think this is where any school of thought fails. When an idea, philosophy or belief turns into a competition it's lost it's true meaning. Having known Beall and her children, I don't think they started with the intent of hurting anyone. As time marched on though, what started as a simple idea of wholesome toys and books, turned into a massive following with some truly insane people. On the topic of the groceries though, our family had a garden as did every VF family I knew. Every child had their own tools and were taught basic concepts including how to cook in the kitchen. Much of what I experienced was no different from what I've learned about Montessori or Waldorf educations, but  it's the beliefs that make me nervous. If you came to my house, you'd probably think it still looked like a VF house: I have lots of florals, tea sets, pretty dolls and leather bound books. I still dress in semi vintage clothing (as do my children by my son picks it out lol I never forced him) and many of my activities/hobbies would still be accepted in the community....the difference though are the ideals, the basics of life that I teach my children and live by today.

I hope that helps some, I didn't have too much time to write this all out (my baby has been screaming all morning) but please don't hesitate to comment or follow up with more questions! I'll continue to do my best to shed light as I can

Welcome! Occasional poster here, I was more of a ATI and NCFIC as well as VF kid (we got around haha, dedicated to all the likely groups at different points) and didn't leave home nearly as early. Impressed you were able to read Harry Potter haha, no wonder you were corrupted so early I think re: 2., there's also the facet that while nobody was allowed to own any sense of sexuality, since men were the ones making all the rules and writing the materials, they had to admit that sex and stuff existed, couldn't pretend it didn't exist like they do with women's sexuality. Still very repressive but they couldn't completely deny its existence. I think my family was more in denial than most (didn't even get "the talk", beyond a preposterously vague "things will start happening" before puberty), but as with many issues, the culture allows more latitude for men than women; at least that's how it seemed from a guy's perspective, as to why we were more open about 'temptation' and whatnot. Fuck the patriarchy! 

[Columbia]

@CelticSwanNordicSun Than you for all your insights. I have a question for you, if you thin you can answer it. Do you have any idea what the Botkins are up to? They were my gateway family, and I'm very curious as to what they're doing now that they've all but fallen off the map.

[Khendra]

6 hours ago, Othello said:

Welcome! Occasional poster here, I was more of a ATI and NCFIC as well as VF kid (we got around haha, dedicated to all the likely groups at different points) and didn't leave home nearly as early. Impressed you were able to read Harry Potter haha, no wonder you were corrupted so early I think re: 2., there's also the facet that while nobody was allowed to own any sense of sexuality, since men were the ones making all the rules and writing the materials, they had to admit that sex and stuff existed, couldn't pretend it didn't exist like they do with women's sexuality. Still very repressive but they couldn't completely deny its existence. I think my family was more in denial than most (didn't even get "the talk", beyond a preposterously vague "things will start happening" before puberty), but as with many issues, the culture allows more latitude for men than women; at least that's how it seemed from a guy's perspective, as to why we were more open about 'temptation' and whatnot. Fuck the patriarchy!

Hi.  Thanks for your insight also.

Regarding the sex thing, it's the same as it is with secular culture, I'm fine with people stating that men are tempted more often, statistically.  What I am NOT fine with is the assumption that ALL women are somehow ALL immune and completely different, whether due to God or evolution (and yes, there are nontheistic evolutionists who try to argue the same silly perspective).  That's just nonsense, and deep down many people know that -- but when groupthink comes into play, people start agreeing with it even when they contradict themselves elsewhere.  Marcus Schrader, one of the Niednagels' more "mainstream" Calvinist friends, even fell into this trap.  He liked Nathan Daher's post that stated men and women are tempted differently (that men are tempted in the sexual realm, but that women supposedlt aren't), but when I confronted him many months later with Genesis 39 and Potiphar's wife, he said that he had "never heard" that women aren't tempted, and agreed that sexual sin and lust can be a problem for both men and women.

Well, I was glad that he finally admitted the truth, but he apparently conveniently forgot that he had denied such a thing by liking Daher's post long before that.

For those who didn't see my reply on the Orthodox Sex Guru thread, this is a big issue for me because -- prior to exposure from both religious and secular culture's assumptions about this issue, I was happily surfing softcore porn of naked men in my teenage years -- loving all the exposure to the male body, and completely reveling in its form.

(Never mind the further frustration from other camps who think women can only become addicted to pornography due to prior abuse, or due to a desire to make "social connections"!  How many of us ladies just love men's appearances, and we're afraid to come out because of all these assumptions?  Men don't have to deal with all this!  But when a woman admits to loving what a man can look like, it's all these wrong assumptions, and hardly anyone can just take it for what it is.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!)

[MamaJunebug]

4 hours ago, Khendra said:

How many of us ladies just love men's appearances, and we're afraid to come out because of all these assumptions?  Men don't have to deal with all this!  But when a woman admits to loving what a man can look like, it's all these wrong assumptions, and hardly anyone can just take it for what it is.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!)

Well said, @Khendra. Growing up in the '50s & early '60s, I was taught over & over, "Women just don't think 'that way!'"

Bee to the ess. 

[smittykins]

Like the old saying "Men use love to get sex, women use sex to get love."

[Khendra]

Yeah I'm sure that's in the Bible somewhere. and stated as a universal, inviolable principle and fact of life.  Not.  lol

[Palimpsest]

On 2/8/2017 at 5:11 PM, Hane said:

The WHAT? I once saw an innocuous-looking comment from Jen on Lourdes' FB feed!

Eh, you have to remember the history, go back to the big scandal reveal and Jen's Gems alliance with TW Eston (Peter Kershaw) to see the knife in Lourdes's back clearly. Jen also knifes other attractive women.  "Mrs Robinson," for example.

Jen is a very troubled person.  She did genuinely document how badly DPIAT and BCA dealt with her troubled and abusive marriage.  I give her that.  I also think she was the parishioner from hell.  She wanted to rise to the top.

Her alliances (yes, she is a Kinist) and belief systems are really troubling, however, and she is an awful opportunist.  I read everything Jen says very carefully - with a bushel of salt on the side.

[Hane]

Yes, @Palimpsest--what you said. I read the Jen's Gems stuff a while ago. I got a headache trying to wrap my head around her as she actively sought out DPIART's patriarchal, fundie church, but obviously felt she was the super-special woman who deserved to be treated like one of the guys in that ultra-"Christian" boys' club. 

Was she reaching her icky feelers out to poor Lourdes in an attempt to bond over "He was meeeeeeen to me, too"? I hope the psycho leaves Lourdes alone. Lourdes is getting an education and developing the kind of social life a young woman deserves.

 

[DomWackTroll]

16 minutes ago, Hane said:

I hope the psycho leaves Lourdes alone. Lourdes is getting an education...

But it's an ebil STEM education! How will she ever know that the earth is flat? They're keeping it from her! They're keeping it from ALL of us!

 

[Palimpsest]

13 minutes ago, Hane said:

Was she reaching her icky feelers out to poor Lourdes in an attempt to bond over "He was meeeeeeen to me, too"? I hope the psycho leaves Lourdes alone. Lourdes is getting an education and developing the kind of social life a young woman deserves.

 

Jen is all over the place.  She has tried to suck up to Lourdes (having thoroughly thrown her under the bus).  She has sucked up to Nolan too and apparently had some, I hope temporary, success there.

She also regularly tries to suck up to Beal!  I swear if DPIAT lifted his little finger Jen would be back worshiping his Patriarchal butt in a nano-second.  

 If there is a choice - Jen seems to jump to the dark side every. single. time.

As I said, troubled.

 

 

[DomWackTroll]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Jen is all over the place.  

You can say that again! She's a Universalist now, of all things. Temporarily, I'm sure, but still... I really didn't see that one coming. 

[Othello]

6 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

But it's an ebil STEM education! How will she ever know that the earth is flat? They're keeping it from her! They're keeping it from ALL of us!

 

All the comments on that post are *killing* me. "Zen Don: well, where are the damn satellites? Michael Erickson: Do you think they are backed up like rush hour traffic or something?" Also "Jen Fishburne: There is no gravity. That is a major myth as well. And no has EVER observed a CURVED sea. Ever. Go outside and look around. Use your five senses to truly observe."

Dying laughing haha. Comedy gold; I'd forgotten people could be this hilarious.

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

She's a Universalist now, of all things. Temporarily, I'm sure, but still... I really didn't see that one coming. 

I take it she's a "Christian" Universalist and NOT a Unitarian Universalist!

[DomWackTroll]

5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I take it she's a "Christian" Universalist and NOT a Unitarian Universalist!

Well, she believes that all people *eventually* wind up in heaven, but I can't imagine her going to a Unitarian church with all the "Trump haters."

She also now adores prosperity charlatans like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer. She's "worshiped" at Osteen's church several times and raves about it.