UPDATED: Josh Duggar Part 13 - No longer missing, Still a Jerk

[infooverload]

I will put my two cents in regarding religious rehabilitation programs. I know someone who was sent to one recommended to them by their pastor who was a graduate of the program. The program is for drugs and alcohol and lasts a year. Six months of in patient treatment, then another six months out of state in a half way type of place. Similar to RU the "counselors" are not professionally trained but former graduates. As for payment they have scholarships, residents work but any pay goes to the facility and there seem to be constant car auctions. These places are also not held liable if something happens when someone is in for treatment. For example if a person reveals, they are gay and becomes suicidal due to pray the gay way and then commits suicide. The family has no legal recourse. The family and patients sign some kind of form stating the facility can not be sued and disputes will be handled Biblically. Basically I think of these places as AA on God steriods. On a side note the history of AA'S origins is interesting.

[socalrules]

I think what the Duggars don't understand, which most people of any faith do, is that you can turn to God and the medical profession for health care. One does not negate the other. If I or someone I love is sick, I will pray, light candles at church, etc. I will still seek or encourage others to seek professional medical care. The Duggars don't seem to have a problem going to a doctor for care of the body, just not the mind. It may be that physical illness they can understand but those related to the mind are scary and confusing because they can't be easily fixed. 

I do agree that they may worry that they will be blamed for how they have lived their lives. They may not understand that Josh may have turned out the way he was regardless of how he was raised. There are people who were raised in wonderful, ideal environments that can turn out to be serial killers, molesters, sociopaths, etc. There is no reason to assume that the other kids, raised the same way, will turn out like their brother. 

[JenniferJuniper]

16 minutes ago, Swamptribe said:

JB and Michelle are narcissists.  They only love their children so far as those children are an extension of JB and Michelle; for how they reflect on JB and Michelle.  For them to get Josh professional therapy, they would also have to admit that the religious path; that selling their family on television, doesn't work. That they way in which they choose to raise their family, was wrong. They will never do that.

 

The sad thing is, if there is hope for Josh to recover from assholeism he needs to work with a good psychologist who can help him sort through how and why he became who he is and how he can use these insights in his life gong forward.  Which is the very last thing his Gothardite parents would ever want him to do.

Sitting in Jesus camp with a Bible and "counselors" who are praying that Satan gets thee behind him is doing nothing for Josh or his wife and kids.  It's only benefiting his grifting parents and siblings who are keeping their black sheep out of the way while they cha-ching away. As much as I dislike Josh, I despise what his parents have done to him - now and in the past.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Swamptribe said:

JB and Michelle are narcissists.  They only love their children so far as those children are an extension of JB and Michelle; for how they reflect on JB and Michelle.  For them to get Josh professional therapy, they would also have to admit that the religious path; that selling their family on television, doesn't work. That they way in which they choose to raise their family, was wrong. They will never do that.

 

I entirely agree.  Indeed, I stated that they are narcissistic and self-absorbed.  My point was that even parents who are not narcissists, parents who genuinely care about their children and want to protect and cherish them, may nevertheless fail to get their children secular help and might have trusted in prayer and repentance instead of what we would consider real treatment.

This point is important because I could see someone like Anna, who seems to genuinely love her kids, failing to protect her her children not out of lack of love but out of ignorance and the mistaken belief that prayer is what matters.  One still has to hold such a parent responsible, but her (or his) failure would not be due to lack of love.

JB and M are another story.  They don't care enough about their kids, so even if they realized that prayer and hard work isn't the only thing that Josh needs, they couldn't admit it.  I jdon't think they realize it, but it wouldn't matter if they did.

[anotherone]

I have what seems to be a different view on Josh.  I actually feel sorry for him and I think he may be the best hope for the first child to break free. 

Now no question he has jerky qualities, and that smug look on his face doesn't do him any favors, but I believe if he wasn't raised in that family he probably would have avoided all those prosecutable offenses.  Let's say that he was raised in a normal family with himself and a few younger sisters.  At grade 1 or 2 he probably would have been the kid to use potty humor all the time.  Later he would have been the kid to say boobies in class to get a laugh.  In 6th he'd be harassing the older middle school girls about their outfits or new figures.  In 7th and 8th he'd be sneaking the National Geographics or Playboys with his friends and trying to grab girls and getting sent to the office on occasion.  In HS he'd be boarded up in his room (his own room with a locked door) obsessively watching internet porn.  In college he'd be trying to get girls drunk to sleep with them. 

With all these outlets he probably would have avoided groping his sisters and paying for prostitues.  Or cheating on a wife because he wouldn't be married till he got all this out of his system.  I'll bet if you put a lot of normal boys in that crazy duggar household they'd crack too.  Apparenty many have because JB said it was common in that kind of religion

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, anotherone said:

I have what seems to be a different view on Josh.  I actually feel sorry for him and I think he may be the best hope for the first child to break free. 

Now no question he has jerky qualities, and that smug look on his face doesn't do him any favors, but I believe if he wasn't raised in that family he probably would have avoided all those prosecutable offenses.  Let's say that he was raised in a normal family with himself and a few younger sisters.  At grade 1 or 2 he probably would have been the kid to use potty humor all the time.  Later he would have been the kid to say boobies in class to get a laugh.  In 6th he'd be harassing the older middle school girls about their outfits or new figures.  In 7th and 8th he'd be sneaking the National Geographics or Playboys with his friends and trying to grab girls and getting sent to the office on occasion.  In HS he'd be boarded up in his room (his own room with a locked door) obsessively watching internet porn.  In college he'd be trying to get girls drunk to sleep with them. 

With all these outlets he probably would have avoided groping his sisters and paying for prostitues.  Or cheating on a wife because he wouldn't be married till he got all this out of his system.  I'll bet if you put a lot of normal boys in that crazy duggar household they'd crack too.  Apparenty many have because JB said it was common in that kind of religion

I tend to agree. But getting girls drunk to sleep with them is not that different from raping them, and I think the Josh-in-a-mainstream-family that you describe would use prostitutes also..  A Josh raised in a feminist family might do better: Yes: dirty jokes, Playboy (before they took the centerfold away) and porn. No getting girls drunk, more empathizing and being "skilled" to get laid,  

Nevertheless, though Josh is a victim himself, that doesn't let him off the hook for victimizing others.  But it is really sad.

[nst]

2 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 

Sitting in Jesus camp with a Bible and "counselors" who are praying that Satan gets thee behind him is doing nothing for Josh or his wife and kids.  It's only benefiting his grifting parents and siblings who are keeping their black sheep out of the way while they cha-ching away. As much as I dislike Josh, I despise what his parents have done to him - now and in the past.

and this is wherein lies the problem with the girls new tv show - we all know what they said and how they said it - can I get an amen for a pregnant lying Jessa - the girls are benefiting the only way they know how - through gifting like their parents -(and the fact that they married grifters is hilarious)  and the parents are not being accountable for anything. Instead they are re-creating what they did - but with skeletons that are not out of the closet or are they ? once Josh can come home and I truly think he will be there longer because they can't control him anymore it looks like the parents will never change despite what they said 

 

[anotherone]

Yes, then let's just say putting himself out there at some party where there are a lot of willing girls (skip the drunk part, too close to crossing a line).  My point is you can get a lot out of your system sexually by doing those things yet not crossing the line.  He possibly could have been a normal though rather jerky kid otherwise.

I would hope that he is staying longer in rehab because he just doesn't want to go "home."  The best thing he could do for anyone is send Anna and her kids over to her brother's, who volunteered to take care of them.  And offer to do whatever he could to get a job to pay for them.  And then just go off on his own, get therapy, live his life, make amends to everyone, and try to be a good example to his younger siblings.

[Bushes of Love]

11 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Yes, then let's just say putting himself out there at some party where there are a lot of willing girls (skip the drunk part, too close to crossing a line).  My point is you can get a lot out of your system sexually by doing those things yet not crossing the line.  He possibly could have been a normal though rather jerky kid otherwise.

Far from putting words in your mouth, I feel the picture of university age Josh was less of the getting girls drunk and more a general douchebag. The sort that says they they are in touch with their feminine side and try to impress you then get pissy when you don't immediately put out. I could see him being that guy.

[gustava]

1 hour ago, anotherone said:

I would hope that he is staying longer in rehab because he just doesn't want to go "home."  The best thing he could do for anyone is send Anna and her kids over to her brother's, who volunteered to take care of them.  And offer to do whatever he could to get a job to pay for them.  And then just go off on his own, get therapy, live his life, make amends to everyone, and try to be a good example to his younger siblings.

Well said.

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, Bushes of Love said:

Far from putting words in your mouth, I feel the picture of university age Josh was less of the getting girls drunk and more a general douchebag. The sort that says they they are in touch with their feminine side and try to impress you then get pissy when you don't immediately put out. I could see him being that guy.

No, no, you wouldn't be putting words in my mouth... I would agree.  But at least he would have had a chance to get some feedback and possibly adjust his behavior based on people's reactions.  Now he has no chance.  That's why I feel bad for him and hope even he can escape.

[ksgranola1]

I feel certain he's out, just not where we can see  him. I'm hoping he went directly to Big Sandy say, & will send for Anna in due time. I can't see him going back to TTH. I'll bet if he's learned anything, it's that married at 20, father of 4 by 27 is not a good plan. I can't see him staying in the fundie lifestyle. He would always feel "judged" & that's a lot of pressure for even a normal guy.

[CyborgKin]

On 05/03/2016 at 3:00 PM, Dandruff said:

Why are there exactly five candles on that cake?

Sorry, sorry, sorry...

It looks like 4.5 candles actually, as four of them have burned down slightly.

[season of life]

Think they had an actual celebration for Josh's birthday? Like cake and dinner and presents? 

[CorruptionInc.]

Think they had an actual celebration for Josh's birthday? Like cake and dinner and presents? 

I doubt there were presents. He cost them their show...

[season of life]

@CorruptionInc., What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in the Duggar house. I feel awkward just thinking about how Josh's birthday celebration went down, if he did indeed get one.

[CoveredInBees]

17 hours ago, socalrules said:

I think what the Duggars don't understand, which most people of any faith do, is that you can turn to God and the medical profession for health care. One does not negate the other. If I or someone I love is sick, I will pray, light candles at church, etc. I will still seek or encourage others to seek professional medical care. The Duggars don't seem to have a problem going to a doctor for care of the body, just not the mind. It may be that physical illness they can understand but those related to the mind are scary and confusing because they can't be easily fixed. 

This reminds me of a joke (told in church, back when I was God Squad) which illustrates the point that you don't just ignore earthly help because Jesus will save you:

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

Doesn't it occur to Josh that being controlled by your parents at 27 is kind of ridiculous.

[FlamingFundie]

I bet they had an entire celebration sans Joshley because "brotherly love." I can picture them bringing the cake out after supper, lighting candles, awkwardly glancing at each other as they try to silently decide who will blow them out. Then they decide to collectively blow together, and then they all circle around and pray.

[DuggarWatch]

54 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

Doesn't it occur to Josh that being controlled by your parents at 27 is kind of ridiculous.

Actually, he's 28 now.  And the father of four.  

[Darwinesque]

23 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

I bet they had an entire celebration sans Joshley because "brotherly love." I can picture them bringing the cake out after supper, lighting candles, awkwardly glancing at each other as they try to silently decide who will blow them out. Then they decide to collectively blow together, and then they all circle around and pray.

I completely agree. I think this was done for the M kids in "honour" of their daddy.

[SilverBeach]

18 hours ago, anotherone said:

I have what seems to be a different view on Josh.  I actually feel sorry for him and I think he may be the best hope for the first child to break free. 

 

I appreciate the fanfic, but never in a million years would I feel sorry for him. The only adult fundie getting my pity is Priss. Just about every criminal in prison had a sorry childhood, but my pity is reserved for their victims. I felt badly for the sisters when everything came out, but that was short lived because they minimized their own molestation.

Josh. Ugh.

[quiverofdoubt]

Do any of the m kids have birthdays right about now? Any of them turning 4 or 5? I don't know the M kids ages.  Some families put an extra candle on the cake for luck/growth/faith whatever.

[DuggarWatch]

10 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Do any of the m kids have birthdays right about now? Any of them turning 4 or 5? I don't know the M kids ages.  Some families put an extra candle on the cake for luck/growth/faith whatever.

Josh is the only one in the whole clan with a March birthday.

[JenniferJuniper]

44 minutes ago, DuggarWatch said:

Josh is the only one in the whole clan with a March birthday.

No M or J kids turning 4 or 5 around now.  Josie's already 6 I think and I believe Michael was born in the summer.

But it might have been for one of their friends.