Jill & Jessa specials coming - MERGED

[andagoat]

7 hours ago, mebeforee said:

I like Joe, he's always seemed really good natured and easygoing. He also never struck me as particularly stupid, which I have to say I often thought about JD. Now I think that may be largely from scripting, maybe he just doesn't do well under the pressure of having to remember what he's SUPPOSED to say. Anytime he's tried to speak before at any length it seemed like he struggled to find words to complete his thoughts, and I remember at least in the earliest specials, often Josh would then chime in with a clearer, more charismatic comment. I wonder if part of the difference in attitude is him stepping out from Josh's shadow and rejecting the false agreeableness that Josh perfected and just plain saying what he thinks without trying to self-edit too much.

I never thought JD was not very smart, I always thought he was "so not into this" tv talking heads.  He's got multiple legitimate jobs out there (some helped by Jim Bob) and I feel he has other stuff going on and doing the tv THs was just an obligation he had to do.  And with living at home still, he probably has a good chunk of money to start a life when he gets married.  I think he's a good guy, but just not into the Duggar brand.

[nokidsmom]

9 hours ago, lascuba said:

Random thought: JD is surprisingly well-spoken. I'd never noticed it before, but watching the clips it's especially striking after listening to his embarrassingly inarticulate sisters. Considering how much time they've spent in front of the cameras and doing speaking gigs, it's ridiculous how badly the older girls express themselves. Meanwhile, JD has averaged about half a word per episode and he speaks well on camera. Joseph was pretty good as well...the "whenevers" through me a bit until I remembered that whenever=when, and he stumbled a bit, but still better than his sisters. He'll likely improve with time. 

JD has had experiences outside the Duggar bubble which perhaps taught him a thing or two about communication.  Like having to communicate / relate to people in the real world.  Or maybe he's just naturally better at it.

I am not surprised that he's taken on the role of being the one to look up to.   I hope he's done that of his own accord, not be guilted into it by his parents with the "as the next oldest son, it's your job to be the role model now that our Golden Child has messed up".

Personally I would like to see JD take off in his plane and never come back to that family.  He seems to be an OK guy and I rather hate to see him dragged down by that mess of a family.

[nst]

I think the second scandal really pulled the carpet from everyone.  They were already indoctrinated into their worlds. Had a successful 1st secret - had the show, the power, the money, the experiences, no one knew because it was covered up in a little box, all was forgiven to a degree.  People were leading lives.  Lives they all admitted they loved despite what Jessa said in the Megan Kelly interview.  If that were true - she wouldn't be doing another show - letting the world see her self give birth.  

I also had a thought maybe Jinger was never allowed to express herself the way she should and that is why she is the way she is- there are a lot of molestation survivors out there - who go one way and the others go another way - the fact that her older sisters were able to jump into marriage and babyhood - not just cause they were trained to do so but because they had the tools she doesn't seem to have.  OR maybe because she is at the TTH still and sees how's it affects  everyone (why do you think Jill ran away )  - opposed to Jessa who seems to be there a lot after marriage - but seems so unaffected by it all. 

[Bad Wolf]

JD has shown some un Duggar like initiative. He became a constable, worked for his house and got his pilot's license. Aside from Jill's midwife certificate, no one else in the family has done anything in the real world. I'm not sure how valuable Jill's qualifications are. So I hope JD is living a quiet fundie light life in his own house, an example to his siblings.

[lascuba]

I think that there was a least a little pressure from JB and Michelle for JD to take on the role model job, on top of the internal pressure because of what's he been raised to believe. Which sucks for him. It's just not healthy for anyone to believe that they're required to be a role model and let that dictate their choices. 

[Rescinded and Mended]

On 12/9/2015 at 2:39 PM, halcionne said:

imo Jill looks like she's having a hard time telling her truth, because it's not a good testimony. I can believe she's hurt and pissed but doesn't feel comfortable with those feelings, because they're not allowed in their culture.

I believe this is exactly the truth of it. The first time I saw Jill crying on the Megyn Kelly interview, she did have actual tears running down her face. She couldn't quite catch all of them with the tissue. I don't know about the other times she's been shown crying on camera, but I can easily believe she was (and is) resentful and unhappy about a terrible event in her life that she thought was laid to rest in the past, until the media found out about it and ran with it.

This doesn't excuse her defense of Josh, or her intent to grift money from the public due to this situation, but she's still entitled to feel bad over the public release of a private event in her life that caused her so much pain, no matter what her upbringing might be.

[vienna]

I have to say the interviews TLC released so far are very interesting. I think the kids in this interview are only in 90% repeating the wisedom booklets and we finally get so see a bit of true feelings and independent thoughts. Jinger has been the most interesting one. First her relationship with Jessa seemed not go when they went shopping for the chair. Maybe she disagrees with what Jill and Jessa told Kelly about the molestation? But second, compared to the other siblings statements Jinger was in my opinion the one with independent thoughts (DANGER!) She really is too smart for this family. The second scandal might just be what she needs to allow herself to ask more questions.

[picklepizzas]

57 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

JD has shown some un Duggar like initiative. He became a constable, worked for his house and got his pilot's license. Aside from Jill's midwife certificate, no one else in the family has done anything in the real world. I'm not sure how valuable Jill's qualifications are. So I hope JD is living a quiet fundie light life in his own house, an example to his siblings.

I wonder if we'll suddenly see JD get much more involved in the fundie lifestyle now that he feels he has to take on this role. Perhaps he was leaning fundie lite but will now feel pulled by guilt into being the golden example that josh was supposed to be. I wonder if we'll suddenly see a courtship/marriage from him...

[socalrules]

What I find so strange about Josh being their role model is that none of them ever seemed to like Josh and he didn't seem to particularly like them. Even before the molestation scandal came to light, many on FJ mentioned how noticeable it was that Josh didn't seem to be close to any of his siblings. I never got the idea that they looked up to him or wanted to be like him. It was even obvious that Jim Bob much preferred JD, who I always thought was the golden boy.

I will never be able to get over the fact that they think the molestation was harmless and understandable but that cheating on your wife is almost unforgivable. 

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

I think that there was a least a little pressure from JB and Michelle for JD to take on the role model job, on top of the internal pressure because of what's he been raised to believe. Which sucks for him. It's just not healthy for anyone to believe that they're required to be a role model and let that dictate their choices. 

It does suck for him.  Namely because IMHO, it sucks (no pun intended) him back into the mess that is his family.  He's been the one who has been a bit more independent, more detached from the dog and pony show, and seems to be the better for it.  Now he might be experiencing guilt trips by his parents over taking on the role model and frankly at his age, he's doesn't need to do that.  He's an adult who can go out and forge his own life rather than possibly compromising his hopes and goals  to satisfy his parent's expectations for a "role model".   As if it's his responsibility to offset his parents' and his brother's stupid decisions.

Maybe he should have been held as the role model all along, but nobody paid attention because he wasn't the oldest or more quiet or whatever.  Still not his responsibility that his idiotic parents woke up to that fact too late.

[BackseatMom]

I think they know that they have to let a little more show or they won't be able to keep up interest (and ratings).

[VixenToast]

What's the drinking game for tonight? I think I may honestly try it. I don't have to work until 11 tomorrow.

I'll start with some, but please add more!

Take a drink:

- every time someone mentions sin.

- every time JimBoob + MEchelle are shown.

- every time someone says devastating.

- every time Jill cries.

- every time Jessa yells in labor.

- every time Joe says whenever.

[vienna]

9 minutes ago, VixenToast said:

What's the drinking game for tonight? I think I may honestly try it. I don't have to work until 11 tomorrow.

I'll start with some, but please add more!

Take a drink:

- every time someone mentions sin.

- every time JimBoob + MEchelle are shown.

- every time someone says devastating.

- every time Jill cries.

- every time Jessa yells in labor.

- every time Joe says whenever.

Every time they mention forgiveness 

Every time they speak of " the first thing" and "the second thing" 

Special challenge: double shots when one actually uses the word adultery or cheating.

 

[Nonyabznoch]

7 minutes ago, VixenToast said:

What's the drinking game for tonight? I think I may honestly try it. I don't have to work until 11 tomorrow.

I'll start with some, but please add more!

Take a drink:

- every time someone mentions sin.

- every time JimBoob + MEchelle are shown.

- every time someone says devastating.

- every time Jill cries.

- every time Jessa yells in labor.

- every time Joe says whenever.

Lol, you must have an iron liver!  I'd be hungover for a month

[hollywood]

1 hour ago, socalrules said:

What I find so strange about Josh being their role model is that none of them ever seemed to like Josh and he didn't seem to particularly like them. Even before the molestation scandal came to light, many on FJ mentioned how noticeable it was that Josh didn't seem to be close to any of his siblings. I never got the idea that they looked up to him or wanted to be like him. It was even obvious that Jim Bob much preferred JD, who I always thought was the golden boy.

I will never be able to get over the fact that they think the molestation was harmless and understandable but that cheating on your wife is almost unforgivable. 

That's what I think too! I sometimes forget he is even one of the 19 kids because he has been out of the house on the show so long. None of them seem close to Josh. He is like the odd child (molester) out.

[halcionne]

I'm loving all of the JD and Joe character analysis. We really haven't had much to go on before now, and these clips are so much more revealing than the usual Duggar propaganda. I did notice JD in the flamingo painting episode--I got the impression that he had good ideas about how to get that job done, but that noisier people's opinions drowned his out. #introvertcurse

Silly Myers-Briggs pondering ahead:

I'm always compelled to run things like this through my MBTI filter, especially my obsession with INTJs (I admit that I see them everywhere, and it may just be wishful thinking because I love them so much), and now I wonder if he and Jessa both are INTJs. I think a lot about how MBTI interacts with gender roles and social expectations, and of course the fact that every individual is unique (let's not forget that there are many, many other factors at play that make people behave the way they do). This hypothesis could explain why Jessa dumbs down her THs (I'm convinced she's smarter than she lets on), since fundies value sweetness and compliance over assertiveness and confidence in their women. JD, as a man, has a different set of expectations, so he is allowed to be more IXTJ-like (I see introversion and extroverted thinking for sure; I'm less confident--but still somewhat confident--that he's using introverted intuition as opposed to introverted sensing, which would make him an ISTJ) than Jessa. 

But I could be way off base here. 

[JenniferJuniper]

3 hours ago, socalrules said:

What I find so strange about Josh being their role model is that none of them ever seemed to like Josh and he didn't seem to particularly like them. Even before the molestation scandal came to light, many on FJ mentioned how noticeable it was that Josh didn't seem to be close to any of his siblings. I never got the idea that they looked up to him or wanted to be like him. It was even obvious that Jim Bob much preferred JD, who I always thought was the golden boy.

 

I couldn't say for sure if Dim Bob prefers (guess that's "preferred" now) John over Josh, but I totally agree with you that it seemed Josh wasn't too connected with any of his siblings, and at times some of them have shown disdain for him.  Could have stemmed from the time of the molestations.   Then again, he was a self-involved, arrogant dick when we met him as a teenager, despite the fact that the molestation investigation happened shortly before.  Possibly just a perfect storm of being an entitled first born (ha, typed " first porn" first) in a fundie family, maybe some unresolved resentment over being partially dethroned when the post-Caleb miracle twins were born, and the fact that he just has a shitty personality.

I hate the fact that they are doing this show and making Josh's siblings discuss this on television.  And I hate the fact that I can stop myself from watching the train wreck.  

For some reason I'm curious to see if Josiah is interviewed and if so, what he has to say.  

[nst]

I posted something and then deleted it 

I believe I was trying to say that JD obviously feels the weight of everything 

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, AlysonRR said:

<snip>

She seems to think there are things for which she needs forgiveness, based on what we've seen on the show. I remember feeling that way when I was a young teen being abused by an older teen...

We are not supposed to speculate on who were the other two sisters that Josh molested or how sustained the abuse may have been beyond what was admitted to the police (much less bring up the names of the unnamed sisters) so I will just say:

The encounter in the laundry room was a lot less clearly explained in the police report than the incident where a younger child was touched inappropriately in the genital area by someone who was reading to her.   So I deduce  that the laundry incident may have been especially traumatic for whoever was the eight year old victim.

Aside from what may or may not have happened, an older child might be more susceptible to feelings of shame about inappropriate touching because she would have a heightened awareness of what is/isn't acceptable.  (Consider for example how, in the real world, a five year old is going to be a lot less conscious of showing her panties than an eight year old.)

[AlwaysExcited]

41 minutes ago, halcionne said:

I'm always compelled to run things like this through my MBTI filter, especially my obsession with INTJs (I admit that I see them everywhere, and it may just be wishful thinking because I love them so much), and now I wonder if he and Jessa both are INTJs.

What? There are other people with MBTI filter and INTJ obsession? My day is made.

Anyway, I have always thought of Jessa as INFJ or INTJ. I'm leading towards INFJ, but can't really explain, why.

[unforgiving]

I'm going to go ahead and admit that I've always had a soft spot for JD. He reminds me of my older brother, who is in his mid-forties now. He's never married and never wanted to. He's just the quiet sort who is happy in his own company doing what he likes to do, and feels awkward when put on the spot. Works hard and helps out whenever someone asks, but he's just a bit of a lone wolf and he likes his life that way.

I'm sure JD will marry one day as expected by his fundie parents, but I often wonder if he wouldn't choose the life my brother has if that was acceptable in his circle.

I don't think JD should be feeling any additional pressure to be a good role model to his younger siblings, because IMO he already has been a good role model for a very long time, being the hard worker of the family that he is. It's been pretty obvious that Joe has always looked up to JD and those howler boys would do well to follow Joe's lead on that.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

It does suck for him.  Namely because IMHO, it sucks (no pun intended) him back into the mess that is his family.  He's been the one who has been a bit more independent, more detached from the dog and pony show, and seems to be the better for it.  Now he might be experiencing guilt trips by his parents over taking on the role model and frankly at his age, he's doesn't need to do that.  He's an adult who can go out and forge his own life rather than possibly compromising his hopes and goals  to satisfy his parent's expectations for a "role model".   As if it's his responsibility to offset his parents' and his brother's stupid decisions.

Maybe he should have been held as the role model all along, but nobody paid attention because he wasn't the oldest or more quiet or whatever.  Still not his responsibility that his idiotic parents woke up to that fact too late.

Considering that Josh as role model wasn't expected to do much except be virtuous and successful, maybe JD will not have to do much except be himself. (The pressure to marry may get stronger though.)

I don't think we should make too much about how Josh was "looked up to," by the other boys.  It may be no more than that he was articulate, favored by parents, and the first one to "grow up" and be a married man.  The fancy sounding job in DC may also have been something the other boys admired/envied.

It doesn't mean they liked him.  It is more like they were impressed.

[lascuba]

I love it when @halcionnegeeks out on MBTI.

[JenniferJuniper]

25 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

What? There are other people with MBTI filter and INTJ obsession? My day is made.

Anyway, I have always thought of Jessa as INFJ or INTJ. I'm leading towards INFJ, but can't really explain, why.

She doesn't seem all that intuitive to me. (Me being an INTP with hardly any Sensing abilities.)

Definitely a T and a J.   If I can't tell for certain whether someone is an I or an E, I default to E.

So - I'll go with ESTJ

[BunnyBee]

INTJ's UNITE