Mormons and Orthodox Jews are facing a "marriage crisis"

[shedemei]

So are the women expected to get jobs then since the men are too busy to get jobs? I remember Anna T complaining about how it was unfair to expect a woman to run a household, constantly having babies and working to support her scholarly husband.

Yes, Yeshivish women are expected to work and support the family. Actually, not only are the women expected to work, in most cases her parents are expected to financially support the couple for a few years and, in some communities, buy them a home. How much her family can afford determines how "good" of a boy they will be able to get. Some kollels pay the men a pittance, or husbands will teach or tutor to bring in more money.

I think Anna T is dati leumi (somewhat analogous to "Modern Orthodox," which is somewhat analogous to "fundie light") and they don't seem to approve the Yeshiva system.

[lilah]

Anna has a lot of counter-cultural opinions, formed in part from reading a lot of stay-at-home daughter blogs and fantasizing about how it would be much more preferable to be the keeper of a home and home school since she's very introverted and low energy. Homeschooling very unusual in Orthodox communities in Israel.

What's interesting though is that it's based on the fact that she just did not want to be a working mother. She seem to think that homeschooling & homesteading would be much easier and then I think has come to realize that it says also takes a lot of energy. I think this is why she took a break from having a baby is for several years

[Cleopatra7]

This doesn't surprise me at all.

With the way most of these communities treat women, it makes sense that they never leave. These women are not taught to think about their choices. They typically don't have any. They are just supposed to get married and have kids. They aren't even typically in charge of the finances, bills, etc.

In many circles they are told they were the root of original sin, and the only way to be forgiven is their religion. They are so beaten down in their culture, but they are also told that no one else will ever be there for them and help them. So why would they ever leave?

Women are also imbued with the whole "kirche kinder küche" nonsense (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder,_K ... he,_Kirche). This tells women that it is "natural" for them to be pious and more spiritual than men. In comparison, piety is considered to be an optional attribute for masculinity. I've heard on conservative Catholic blogs that this is why the priesthood should be male-only, because if they're not in charge they won't want to show up to mass, whereas women will show up regardless. :ew: Therefore, I think it can be difficult for women to shake off the idea that they must be religious to be a "real women". However, the most "militant" atheists that I know in real life are all Southern women, black and white. I think there's something about being an atheist, progressive woman in the South that makes a female particularly pugnacious.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yes, Yeshivish women are expected to work and support the family. Actually, not only are the women expected to work, in most cases her parents are expected to financially support the couple for a few years and, in some communities, buy them a home. How much her family can afford determines how "good" of a boy they will be able to get. Some kollels pay the men a pittance, or husbands will teach or tutor to bring in more money.

I think Anna T is dati leumi (somewhat analogous to "Modern Orthodox," which is somewhat analogous to "fundie light") and they don't seem to approve the Yeshiva system.

Yes, working women are the norm. Some fields are particularly popular with this group, such as speech therapist, occupational therapist, graphic designer, teacher - anything where it's relatively easy to combine work and family life while earning a reasonable income.

The shidduch (Jewish matchmaking) system was originally intended to avoid "love at first sight" in favor of making sure that the couple was religiously compatible and acceptable to each family. The irony is that it's become incredibly superficial, because there is no time or opportunity to really get to know each person on a deeper level.

I think it would actually be really interesting to do an in-depth study on women in this community vs. religious SAHMs. You have some other areas that are really similar, like strong emphasis on religion and early marriage and having large families, but this is one variable that's really different. It would be interesting to see what difference having women with earning power makes.

Re women and religious observance in general:

I've heard of similar issues with liberal denominations, where you wouldn't expect traditional dogma and religious expectations to play a role. Reform Judaism, for example, seems to have done a decent job of keeping women from being alienated by focusing on making things egalitarian, but they found themselves needing to reach out to men who became less engaged: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/natio ... .html?_r=0

[nausicaa]

Because girls are socialized from an early age to get along and put other people's wants and needs first. I'll even dredge up a conversation we've all had or at least heard.

"Where do you want to go for dinner?" <--Any question requiring an opinion that other people might disagree with.

"I don't care, where do you want to go?" <--I've heard woman say this far more than men.

It's not because women don't care about where they eat dinner, it's because the wants of the group outweigh the desires of the woman.

Which will lead to teenagers and young adult woman ~not~ rocking the boat and leaving their culture because it would hurt their families and putting themselves first is a selfish, selfish thing to do.

Yes, that explains why women leave their respective religions at much lower rates than men, but it doesn't explain why, as ADoyle90815 says, it is more difficult for women to "see through the bullshit." One can see through the bullshit but still remain active in one's religion because of societal/filial pressures. I was curious as to why ADoyle90815 thought women didn't see through the hypocrisy and issues with organized religions, and if he/she was making an argument that women's brains are wired differently.

[anjulibai]

Yes, Yeshivish women are expected to work and support the family. Actually, not only are the women expected to work, in most cases her parents are expected to financially support the couple for a few years and, in some communities, buy them a home. How much her family can afford determines how "good" of a boy they will be able to get. Some kollels pay the men a pittance, or husbands will teach or tutor to bring in more money.

I think Anna T is dati leumi (somewhat analogous to "Modern Orthodox," which is somewhat analogous to "fundie light") and they don't seem to approve the Yeshiva system.

I've got to be honest, that sounds like a Ponzi scheme long term, considering the high birth rate in a lot of Orthodox families.

If the parents are supporting their kids well into adulthood, and they've got 5 or 6 of them, then what happens when the kids have kids? How do couples that rely on support from their parents support their own children, who will learn to expect that support?

It's just not setting the later generations up very well. Something has to give at some point.

[nausicaa]

I've got to be honest, that sounds like a Ponzi scheme long term, considering the high birth rate in a lot of Orthodox families.

If the parents are supporting their kids well into adulthood, and they've got 5 or 6 of them, then what happens when the kids have kids? How do couples that rely on support from their parents support their own children, who will learn to expect that support?

It's just not setting the later generations up very well. Something has to give at some point.

My understanding as well is that many young ultra-Orthodox couples often have parents who are not as religious, so the parents have been able to work more lucrative jobs and had fewer kids. Therefore they are able to help support their children and grandchilden (albeit, sometimes begrudgingly). As the ultra-Orthodox's children have children, this type of security will not be around, and it will be interesting to see what happens.

We talked about this awhile ago, in relation to Israel specifically. Someone posted a really interesting article, and I'll go see if I can find it.

ETA: Found it! viewtopic.php?f=158&t=20611&hilit

Also, while searching for this thread I inadvertently stumbled upon the "incel" guy discussion thread. :pink-shock:

[anjulibai]

My understanding as well is that many young ultra-Orthodox couples often have parents who are not as religious, so the parents have been able to work more lucrative jobs and had fewer kids. Therefore they are able to help support their children and grandchilden (albeit, sometimes begrudgingly). As the ultra-Orthodox's children have children, this type of security will not be around, and it will be interesting to see what happens.

We talked about this awhile ago, in relation to Israel specifically. Someone posted a really interesting article, and I'll go see if I can find it.

I think I remember that discussion, but it's been a while.

It seems like an amped up version of what's been happening in secular society, where young adults aren't really leaving the nest and just relying on their parents well into their 20s.

Except, here there's more people involved, what with marrying younger and have more kids.

[Cleopatra7]

I've got to be honest, that sounds like a Ponzi scheme long term, considering the high birth rate in a lot of Orthodox families.

If the parents are supporting their kids well into adulthood, and they've got 5 or 6 of them, then what happens when the kids have kids? How do couples that rely on support from their parents support their own children, who will learn to expect that support?

It's just not setting the later generations up very well. Something has to give at some point.

I've often thought the same thing too, about ultra-Orthodox being kind of like Ponzi schemes. They are sort of like inverted triangles, where a diminishing number of elderly people (who actually did have real jobs when they were younger) are supporting an ever increasing number of non-working descendants who are teaching their own children that the ideal man is studies Talmud and Torah 24/7. It reminds me a bit of these Protestant fundie men who all have their own "ministries" (i.e., grifting operations), rather than work a regular 9-5 job. However, because ultra-Orthdox Jewish life requires quite a bit of money for kosher food, private yeshivas, extravagant Old World weddings, fur hats, etc., I'm not sure how these communities can stay solvent if so many of the men remain work-shy.

[shedemei]

I've got to be honest, that sounds like a Ponzi scheme long term, considering the high birth rate in a lot of Orthodox families.

If the parents are supporting their kids well into adulthood, and they've got 5 or 6 of them, then what happens when the kids have kids? How do couples that rely on support from their parents support their own children, who will learn to expect that support?

It's just not setting the later generations up very well. Something has to give at some point.

Yup. I think we're going to see Yeshivish society staring to implode very soon if it hasn't happened yet.

[anjulibai]

I've often thought the same thing too, about ultra-Orthodox being kind of like Ponzi schemes. They are sort of like inverted triangles, where a diminishing number of elderly people (who actually did have real jobs when they were younger) are supporting an ever increasing number of non-working descendants who are teaching their own children that the ideal man is studies Talmud and Torah 24/7. It reminds me a bit of these Protestant fundie men who all have their own "ministries" (i.e., grifting operations), rather than work a regular 9-5 job. However, because ultra-Orthdox Jewish life requires quite a bit of money for kosher food, private yeshivas, extravagant Old World weddings, fur hats, etc., I'm not sure how these communities can stay solvent if so many of the men remain work-shy.

Yeah, I knew a Conservative woman who said she and her husband spend $1000 each year just to restock their pantries for Passover. That's just the two of them, and doesn't count the extra they spend regularly on Kosher food.

I can't imagine what a large family would have to spend, and do it every single year, plus everything else to costs money. It's expensive to be Jewish!

So why encourage your children to not get educations and good paying jobs?

[anjulibai]

Yup. I think we're going to see Yeshivish society staring to implode very soon if it hasn't happened yet.

I would hope for the sake of the many children involved that the leaders of these communities would get together soon and start agreeing that it's time to only encourage the best to pursue full time Torah study. Everyone else can do it in their spare time while maintaining jobs to support themselves and their families.

That seems like a fair compromise.

Of course, I also imagine it would make the marriage market even more competitive....

[mstee]

Regarding women "seeing through the bullshit"- I have a friend who is very religious. I am not, so she feels more comfortable sharing doubts with me. While she doesn't doubt God etc., she has doubts about certain rules within her church and things her pastor preaches. She would never share these doubts with anyone in the church, though. I asked her why she doesn't leave to find a church that has similar beliefs, and she said 1) the church is her world. Her social life, her friends, her activities. And 2) judgment from other church members. She doesn't want to be seen as anything less than your church-going godly woman. She plans to marry within her church, so that's important. So I'm sure part of it for a lot of women is the sense of community (and the fear of losing it) and how they are seen. Men seem to slide by rules easier in religion (for example: virginity. It's a woman's worth, while its not as big of deal for men).

[shedemei]

So why encourage your children to not get educations and good paying jobs?

It will pollute their pure souls. But I do think that's changing amongst the "modern Yeshivish" or "Yeshivish but with it" crowds (ie the ones that are more open to the secular and gentile world).

You can read some stories on imamother and other sites:

imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51586

https://www.google.com/search?q=kollel+ ... mother.com

[sea_gale]

Judging from no less a Jewish historical record than the Fiddler on the Roof movie, the kollel lifestyle is definitely a new innovation. Tevye partly wanted to be rich so that he could study Torah full time.

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[Cleopatra7]

Judging from no less a Jewish historical record than the Fiddler on the Roof movie, the kollel lifestyle is definitely a new innovation. Tevye partly wanted to be rich so that he could study Torah full time.

[bBvideo 560,340:ypymyjuf]

[/bBvideo]

When European Jews lived in shetls, everybody worked out of necessity, and only the smartest young men studied full time. When the Haskalah or Jewish Enlightenment occurred, along with the Emancipation of the Jews, many men who would have studied Talmud and Torah left to study secular subjects and to intergrate into mainstream European society. This is why many ultra Orthodox consider the Haskalah to be even worse than the Holocaust, because the latter killed physical bodies while the former killed the souls (in their opinion).

This new situation where all men study Talmud and Torah is a post-Holocaust innovation. What happened was that ultra Orthodox Jews were disproportionate killed compared to secular Jews. While some secular Jews were able to flee or in some instances hide due to their familiarity with non-Jewish ways, the ultra Orthodox looked visibly Jewish and lacked the means to escape. In a particularly egregious case, the Satmar rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum, told his followers not to worry about the German invasion of Hungary, because their piety would save them. However, once it became clear that the community was slated for destruction, his followers raised a huge sum of money to get Teitelbaum on the Kastner train to Switzerland, while most of them eventually died in concentration camps. After the Holocaust, the goal of the ultra Orthodox was to replace their lost numbers through militant fecundity and to replace the community of religious scholars by making every male a scholar, whether he was suited to it or not. I think the "every male a scholar" thing was supposed to be a temporary situation that got out of hand. Ultra Orthodox institutions have gotten much more conservative in the past forty years and the refusal to work is part of this growing conservatism (see "Sliding to the Right: The Contest for the Future of American Jewish Orthodoxy" by Samuel C. Heilman for more information).

[sea_gale]

When European Jews lived in shetls, everybody worked out of necessity, and only the smartest young men studied full time. When the Haskalah or Jewish Enlightenment occurred, along with the Emancipation of the Jews, many men who would have studied Talmud and Torah left to study secular subjects and to intergrate into mainstream European society. This is why many ultra Orthodox consider the Haskalah to be even worse than the Holocaust, because the latter killed physical bodies while the former killed the souls (in their opinion).

This new situation where all men study Talmud and Torah is a post-Holocaust innovation. What happened was that ultra Orthodox Jews were disproportionate killed compared to secular Jews. While some secular Jews were able to flee or in some instances hide due to their familiarity with non-Jewish ways, the ultra Orthodox looked visibly Jewish and lacked the means to escape. In a particularly egregious case, the Satmar rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum, told his followers not to worry about the German invasion of Hungary, because their piety would save them. However, once it became clear that the community was slated for destruction, his followers raised a huge sum of money to get Teitelbaum on the Kastner train to Switzerland, while most of them eventually died in concentration camps. After the Holocaust, the goal of the ultra Orthodox was to replace their lost numbers through militant fecundity and to replace the community of religious scholars by making every male a scholar, whether he was suited to it or not. I think the "every male a scholar" thing was supposed to be a temporary situation that got out of hand. Ultra Orthodox institutions have gotten much more conservative in the past forty years and the refusal to work is part of this growing conservatism (see "Sliding to the Right: The Contest for the Future of American Jewish Orthodoxy" by Samuel C. Heilman for more information).

Wow, that's fascinating!

I sometimes worry about misjudging the tone of my comments on here, so I came back to reread this one as it was kind of dumb. I'm glad I posted it now as I learned something :D

[ADoyle90815]

Regarding women "seeing through the bullshit"- I have a friend who is very religious. I am not, so she feels more comfortable sharing doubts with me. While she doesn't doubt God etc., she has doubts about certain rules within her church and things her pastor preaches. She would never share these doubts with anyone in the church, though. I asked her why she doesn't leave to find a church that has similar beliefs, and she said 1) the church is her world. Her social life, her friends, her activities. And 2) judgment from other church members. She doesn't want to be seen as anything less than your church-going godly woman. She plans to marry within her church, so that's important. So I'm sure part of it for a lot of women is the sense of community (and the fear of losing it) and how they are seen. Men seem to slide by rules easier in religion (for example: virginity. It's a woman's worth, while its not as big of deal for men).

This is why fewer Mormon women see through the bullshit, as the church is their world since it's what they were raised in. From birth, girls are taught that their main goal is to marry a former missionary in the temple, and instead of being told they're smart, many Mormon girls are told how cute they are. The way I see it, Mormonism can be considered a subculture much like the way the Amish and other groups are, since the church influences every aspect of their lives.