Joshley Madison Pt 4: That Pig She Calls Her Husband

[lookinggoodforjesus]

As someone who started playing on the internet when they were six, it definitely seems like a big scary world out there nowadays. I remember when internet security didn't exist, and you could very easily hide. Hacking was a totally different rodeo in the pre-Julian Assange days. Or maybe it's that this was over ten years and I don't remember well? Am I the only one who has noticed these things?

I've been reading all of these threads but haven't been moved to comment until now (was also just camping in Ucluelet but whatever!). I have to say, I'm really not surprised about any of this. I remember a long time ago, I watched a documentary about a psychology PhD student who lived with nudists for a while and eventually wrote about their behaviour. She wrote about how the women in nudist camps commented on men's dicks and the men commented on tits and what not. Apparently afterward they were all terribly offended and lambasted her and defended themselves by saying "we're just like everybody else" and the documentary showed her saying "but that's exactly what I wanted to say and to prove, is that they're just like everybody else. They're completely normal."

I feel like this about the Duggars. Even the weirdest, most twisted cult members, at the end of the day, are just like everybody else. Married man and father of four watching porn? I actually find that more normal than the Jesus-loving 100% faithful white middle-class married father of four. The former seems much more typical. I'm having difficulty thinking of a guy whose sexual habits I know who doesn't watch porn. Now, I don't think perusing around Ashley Madison is good behaviour whatsoever, and in Josh's case it was just bloody stupid, but it's not abnormal. Nothing he has done is abnormal (in his ADULT years). It's hypocritical as all hell, don't get me wrong. But it's not abnormal. For all of their weirdness and bragging about their celestialness, in the end, the Duggars are really normal people. They're greedy, they're lazy, they're selfish, they're vainglorious, they're obnoxious, they're arrogant, the teenagers are horny, the men watch porn, and the married men fantasize about banging strangers. Despite their silly customs and lifestyle, in the end, they are just like us

[LouisvilleGirl]

one has to wonder if Josh has began the process of "normalizing" himself. What does he watch on tv? What does he listen to? Like others have said, does he really WANT a huge ass amount of children? Did DC make him realize what he was missing? What did he see and do there? Was cheating and porn something he learned whilst in a big city? just a few questions and wonderments (new word maybe?!?) I have had while lurking....

[singsingsing]

The thing about Josh is that it's not like he got married, had a couple kids, and then suddenly realized the quiverfull lifestyle wasn't for him. It was pretty obvious even from before he married Anna that he did not want 20 kids. Someone would ask them the kids question, and Anna would enthusiastically exclaim, "We want as many as possible!" Then Josh would quickly say, "But we would be happy with just one or two, if that's all the Lord blesses us with." He always made sure to make that point. He never wanted what Anna wanted. I'm not sure his internal and external selves have matched up in years, if ever.

[DaisyD]

(snip)

So, suggesting that the Duggars have a firm rule about 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls is a bit stretchy. She didn't actually say that. She said they have an abstinence period.

She flat out said she does this. What the fuck is stretchy about it? You remind me of the little girl I caught lying the other day who wouldn't admit to it even when it was proven. You may not be lying, but I wonder why you come to a discussion board when all you want to do is dictate the world according to you at us. Start a blog or something for that shit.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

one has to wonder if Josh has began the process of "normalizing" himself. What does he watch on tv? What does he listen to? Like others have said, does he really WANT a huge ass amount of children? Did DC make him realize what he was missing? What did he see and do there? Was cheating and porn something he learned whilst in a big city? just a few questions and wonderments (new word maybe?!?) I have had while lurking....

I feel like Josh completely polarized himself. He made his image seemingly more bigoted than his parents and threw himself even more in to defending those IBLP beliefs, and yet his behaviour did in fact become more normal. He may very well like watching South Park after his kids go to bed. The guy really must be in a pretty screwed up spot right now.

[thoughtful]

The idea of waiting 40 days after the birth of a boy and 80 after the birth of a girl to have sex is neither common Christian practice or something Michelle made up.

It comes from Bill Gothard. It is in his Advanced Seminar Textbook, according to several sources (I have never read it). Here is one -- Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism:

So I purchased Gothard’s “Advanced Seminar Textbook,†which was published in 1986 and can be found used on Amazon. I’m not going to blog through it page by page, but I do plan to write some posts on various sections. Today I offer my first of these posts.

In his textbook, Gothard covers his rules for periodic abstinence during marriage, which centers on a woman’s menstrual cycle (pages 175—185). Of all of Gothard’s teachings, this may be the one I’m most unfamiliar with, as it is foreign to anything taught in the evangelical church my family attended. In this post, I will cover the first pages of this section and then finish with a letter Gothard received from a follower.

To start out, here are the rules Gothard lays out as “God’s laws on abstinenceâ€:

What Are God’s Guidelines for Times of Abstinence?

During the menstrual cycle—Ezekiel 18:5-6

Seven days after the menstrual cycle—Leviticus 15:28

40 days after the birth of a son—Leviticus 12:2-4

80 days after the birth of a daughter—Leviticus 12:5

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... -that.html

Not that it has anything to do with why Josh did what he did, of course.

edited for riffle

[chelleinchicago]

The thing about Josh is that it's not like he got married, had a couple kids, and then suddenly realized the quiverfull lifestyle wasn't for him. It was pretty obvious even from before he married Anna that he did not want 20 kids. Someone would ask them the kids question, and Anna would enthusiastically exclaim, "We want as many as possible!" Then Josh would quickly say, "But we would be happy with just one or two, if that's all the Lord blesses us with." He always made sure to make that point. He never wanted what Anna wanted. I'm not sure his internal and external selves have matched up in years, if ever.

I'm feeling a Charles and Diana vibe in your thoughts. He needed to marry a virgin of good breeding so he could produce an heir (and get his parents off his back), but that poor girl fell in love with her prince. Didn't he question in the engagement interview what "in love" really means? It was awful...

I wonder if Josh knows any strippers named Camilla.

[punkiepie]

As someone who started playing on the internet when they were six, it definitely seems like a big scary world out there nowadays. I remember when internet security didn't exist, and you could very easily hide. Hacking was a totally different rodeo in the pre-Julian Assange days. Or maybe it's that this was over ten years and I don't remember well? Am I the only one who has noticed these things?

I've been reading all of these threads but haven't been moved to comment until now (was also just camping in Ucluelet but whatever!). I have to say, I'm really not surprised about any of this. I remember a long time ago, I watched a documentary about a psychology PhD student who lived with nudists for a while and eventually wrote about their behaviour. She wrote about how the women in nudist camps commented on men's dicks and the men commented on tits and what not. Apparently afterward they were all terribly offended and lambasted her and defended themselves by saying "we're just like everybody else" and the documentary showed her saying "but that's exactly what I wanted to say and to prove, is that they're just like everybody else. They're completely normal."

I feel like this about the Duggars. Even the weirdest, most twisted cult members, at the end of the day, are just like everybody else. Married man and father of four watching porn? I actually find that more normal than the Jesus-loving 100% faithful white middle-class married father of four. The former seems much more typical. I'm having difficulty thinking of a guy whose sexual habits I know who doesn't watch porn. Now, I don't think perusing around Ashley Madison is good behaviour whatsoever, and in Josh's case it was just bloody stupid, but it's not abnormal. Nothing he has done is abnormal (in his ADULT years). It's hypocritical as all hell, don't get me wrong. But it's not abnormal. For all of their weirdness and bragging about their celestialness, in the end, the Duggars are really normal people. They're greedy, they're lazy, they're selfish, they're vainglorious, they're obnoxious, they're arrogant, the teenagers are horny, the men watch porn, and the married men fantasize about banging strangers. Despite their silly customs and lifestyle, in the end, they are just like us

I somewhat agree with this- but, and where I think you'll see most of the FJ dislike/skepticism about what you wrote, Josh didn't purport to be normal- he was different; set apart from the heathens. Even if he'd just been just Josh Duggar, son of Fundie royalty jim Bob and Michelle Duggar- I don't think there would be this type of reaction and backlash. It's because he was Josh Smuggar Duggar, son of Fundie royalty jim Bob and Michelle, AND hate/intolerant activist working for the FRC.

Had he become more like Daniel Keller (Anna's brother), who fled the Fundie lifestyle and arcane values, married someone his parents didn't approve of, and supported his unmarried out of wedlock sister and her baby- when all of this Ashley Madison info came to light, I think it would have been newsworthy, but nothing at all like this. It's because he was openly and continuously preaching hate and about the "right" morality. It actually, truly is the hypocrisy of his very public lifestyle in contrast to his personal choices. It's like, don't tell me, in every possible available platform there is, that gay marriage is a threat to "regular" marriage and then pull the type of shit he pulled.

[nelliebelle1197]

I feel like Josh completely polarized himself. He made his image seemingly more bigoted than his parents and threw himself even more in to defending those IBLP beliefs, and yet his behaviour did in fact become more normal. He may very well like watching South Park after his kids go to bed. The guy really must be in a pretty screwed up spot right now.

I think he is a mental mess. He wanted to be a lawyer and his parents set him up to be a... used car salesman? Guy wanted girlfriends and education. He got courtship and Switched on Schoolhouse/Wisdom(less) Booklets.

I don't care what anyone says. Josh Duggar is the product of emotional and spiritual (and likely physical) abuse from his crazy parents. His groping of his sisters is squarely on his parents. His current misery is directly rooted in the weak foundation his parents built for him. Not a single Duggar chidult - even John David - can do anything without Mommy and Daddy bankrolling and approving it.

I cannot image the pressure on Josh growing up. The oldest. A boy in a patriarchical culture. A new baby taking all the attention every few months. Wanting normal kid stuff but stuck in Mommy and Daddy's Army of God. Being the perfect example for 18 younger kids.

The Duggars parents are grifters at heart, looking for the next long con. But their game always relies on the image of this perfect, giant family. Josh was the poster boy for the Duggar game. He had no chance to just be Josh. I just can't fathom living like that.

[HarryPotterFan]

She flat out said she does this. What the fuck is stretchy about it? You remind me of the little girl I caught lying the other day who wouldn't admit to it even when it was proven. You may not be lying, but I wonder why you come to a discussion board when all you want to do is dictate the world according to you at us. Start a blog or something for that shit.

Yeah, just because they have an abstinence period doesn't mean they don't have sex while abstaining!

Wait, what?

[YoshiCat]

The thing about Josh is that it's not like he got married, had a couple kids, and then suddenly realized the quiverfull lifestyle wasn't for him. It was pretty obvious even from before he married Anna that he did not want 20 kids. Someone would ask them the kids question, and Anna would enthusiastically exclaim, "We want as many as possible!" Then Josh would quickly say, "But we would be happy with just one or two, if that's all the Lord blesses us with." He always made sure to make that point. He never wanted what Anna wanted. I'm not sure his internal and external selves have matched up in years, if ever.

And yet neither one of them apparently heard the other. This is really something you should discuss before marriage. Then again, plenty of non fundie couples get married without having a conversation about the number of kids they want. Or the one who wants more figures they'll get the other one to change their mind.

As for the women who are apparently urging Anna to take responsibility for Josh cheating and stay with him---have they thought about how they would feel in her place? Do they really think that's how they would feel? Do they think it can't happen to them because they're keeping their men satisfied? Do they have any idea how they really feel, since they're always told how they feel?

edited for riffles

[SportsgalAnnie]

I wonder if Josh had an outlet like playboy if his needs could have been met to a certain degree

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

I wonder if Josh had an outlet like playboy if his needs could have been met to a certain degree

I certainly feel the gift of masturbation would have helped the guy out. However, there's a lot going on here. Also not being pressured to marry young and have a clown car of children would have also been a game changer.

(Though he would still be that douchey guy from high school that you add on FB for sheer curiosity only to realize he hasn't changed at all)

[Wingnut]

TODAY Moms asked, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar answered.

2. But give it a rest sometimes. It's not all sexytime at the Duggars. They abstain when Michelle has her period, and also after childbirth: 80 days before sex if it's a girl, 40 days after a boy. (The timeline for abstinence after childbirth is loosely based on Old Testament traditions, but is more about what works for their marriage than about observing religious law, the Duggars say.) A bit of abstinence, they've found, does make the heart grow fonder.

today.com/parents/duggars-7-tips-keeping-your-marriage-sexy-even-after-lot-2D12106530

The bolding is mine.

:whistle: Just saying........

[SportsgalAnnie]

I certainly feel the gift of masturbation would have helped the guy out. However, there's a lot going on here. Also not being pressured to marry young and have a clown car of children would have also been a game changer.

(Though he would still be that douchey guy from high school that you add on FB for sheer curiosity only to realize he hasn't changed at all)

yep, ack :disgust:

[Odd1Out]

Unfortunately, for Anna I don't think it would be easy to leave, even if she has siblings or other family to live with and financial means. Her whole identity is wrapped up in being Anna Duggar. It always looked to me like she really enjoyed being one of them so turning from their lifestyle, media attention (the better kind), and all the family members would probably be a difficult transition for her. Hopefully there will be a way for her to ease into it and eventually get out of the cult.

[corkee1213]

Just a thought. .. not sure if anyone else said this.. but what if Anna already knew about all this? Josh is a scumbag for sure. . I guess I wouldn't put it past him to let her find out previously on purpose. As far as the fundie rules go.. it's not like she could have done anything about it anyways. So sickening :think:

[Cates]

As part of the great newbie invasion of 2015, with this, my first post, I'm going to go against the grain here and risk the wrath of the board.

While I'm sure she's a fine woman, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Anna. I do think she should dump that dolt's sorry ass but I agree with others, she's unlikely to.

The reason I don't feel sorry for her is that by her own admission, she knew he molested his sisters 2 FULL YEARS before marrying him. And knowing she would very likely have many daughters with this man, she still married him? WTF?

And how in love could she really have been with him 2 years before they married anyway? When he confessed his indiscretions as a zit-faced 15-year-old, she should have run in the other direction.

I watched the show (streamed it, anyway) and really enjoyed it--in a circus, side-show kind of way--but I always got the idea that Anna was more in love with being a Duggar (and basking in the glow of the Duggar limelight) that she ever was in Josh.

<>

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

As part of the great newbie invasion of 2015, with this, my first post, I'm going to go against the grain here and risk the wrath of the board.

While I'm sure she's a fine woman, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Anna. I do think she should dump that dolt's sorry ass but I agree with others, she's unlikely to.

The reason I don't feel sorry for her is that by her own admission, she knew he molested his sisters 2 FULL YEARS before marrying him. And knowing she would very likely have many daughters with this man, she still married him? WTF?

<>

That's assuming she knew what the molestation was. Could have been told inappropriate touching of girls. Or inappropriate behaviour. But doubt she was told the full truth. And even if she was she was raised by a funny prison ministery dad who believes heavily in redemption & wifely submission. She was the perfect girl for Josh to chose.

[MakingLaundrySoap]

Maybe this is off topic. I'm new, get getting started and on a learning curve. :shifty: I see the Genesis - if you will - of this CRAZY Train as the pregnancy loss after Josh's birth, attributed to the use of BCP's. I have mused as to the cause of that happening, as in, she could have missed dose(s), not followed up if a different type was needed, etc. Back in the day, as Josh is close to my child's age, it was also advised to wait 2-3 cycles on before counting on them for birth control. While women do become pregnant on BCP's... There's a number of factors for that failure besides, well, just pure failure. Oh, how things may could have been different... Maybe.

Thank y'all, btw, for the forum and your inputs. No one in my Circle of Influence gives a rat's nasal hair about all this. I can't get enough.

[Percy]

maybe Josh read the recent studies that showed men who had more than 20 partners in their lifetime reduced their risk of prostate cancer by about 20 percent. He was just being health conscious ! ( other studies suggested 21 or more orgasms a month also contributed to reducing the risk)

[OodOnTheLoo]

Maybe this is off topic. I'm new, get getting started and on a learning curve. :shifty: I see the Genesis - if you will - of this CRAZY Train as the pregnancy loss after Josh's birth, attributed to the use of BCP's. I have mused as to the cause of that happening, as in, she could have missed dose(s), not followed up if a different type was needed, etc. Back in the day, as Josh is close to my child's age, it was also advised to wait 2-3 cycles on before counting on them for birth control. While women do become pregnant on BCP's... There's a number of factors for that failure besides, well, just pure failure. Oh, how things may could have been different... Maybe.

Thank y'all, btw, for the forum and your inputs. No one in my Circle of Influence gives a rat's nasal hair about all this. I can't get enough.

I don't think they were using BCPs when she miscarried. She had a miscarriage and a doctor told her previous use of BCP could do this. If she had waited at least one cycle I really don't see how. However, in their grief and guilt they bought into that and took every subsequent pregnancy as a direct high-five from God.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

maybe Josh read the recent studies that showed men who had more than 20 partners in their lifetime reduced their risk of prostate cancer by about 20 percent. He was just being health conscious ! ( other studies suggested 21 or more orgasms a month also contributed to reducing the risk)

The last thing I read about prostate cancer was that men who ejaculated seven times a week had the lowest risk of developing it. ;)

[lilwriter85]

one has to wonder if Josh has began the process of "normalizing" himself. What does he watch on tv? What does he listen to? Like others have said, does he really WANT a huge ass amount of children? Did DC make him realize what he was missing? What did he see and do there? Was cheating and porn something he learned whilst in a big city? just a few questions and wonderments (new word maybe?!?) I have had while lurking....

I think around 2010, there were signs of Josh "normalizing himself" and becoming less fundie. First sign, I noticed was an episode, in which Josh bought a big screen TV at some auction. On the show, he and Anna said something they were only going to use the TV to watch certain kinds of DVDs. Then we saw Josh getting involved in social media(twitter and ig). He would post more about watching pro sports and stuff about movies. It was known that before they moved to DC, they had a satellite installed on their house. I wouldn't be surprised if Josh was sneaking certain shows when Anna wasn't around or was busy with the kids. I know others who are kind of that way. For example, my mom will watch premium cable shows in another room because my dad despises some of those shows, due to content.

I have a friend who is ex JW. Her mother came from a JW family, but her father was from a Catholic family. The mother wanted the kids raised JW and the father agreed, even though he disagreed with some of the JW beliefs. He used to allow my friend and her siblings to watch certain shows when the mom wasn't around and he even used to give the kids secret treats on holidays. My friend's mom and siblings are also no longer JW.

With Josh, there were signs of him not wanting to completely follow the fundie lifestyle before the move to DC. The first AM account was made before they moved to DC. Maybe, after the move to DC, he might have longed to have a more mainstream conservative Christian lifestyle. But again, he was working for ultra conservative FRC and was a beloved celebrity in fundieland. I still think Josh, Anna, along with the rest of the Duggars loved being fundie royalty. The family made money off that image and that could have led to Josh being conflicted.

As for Josh and family size, I don't think he wants a very large family. Years ago, on the TLC/Discovery, someone there claimed to know the Duggars and that person said something that Josh only waited three or four kids. That person could have been lying. On the show, there were some signs of Josh being annoyed with large family sizes. There were times, he didn't seem too happy when all of his siblings were around. I wouldn't be surprised if baby Meredith is the last one for Josh and Anna.

[Hot Dog Fingers]

I wouldn't worry to much, I'm sure InTouch and the others are working on it right now. Especially InTouch - they probably want a trifecta.

InTouch wasn't lying when they said there were more Duggar scandals still to come! (I know they didn't know about the AM stuff, but still :lol: )