Joshley Madison Pt 4: That Pig She Calls Her Husband

[Hot Dog Fingers]

The idea of waiting 40 days after the birth of a boy and 80 after the birth of a girl to have sex is neither common Christian practice or something Michelle made up.

It comes from Bill Gothard. It is in his Advanced Seminar Textbook, according to several sources (I have never read it). Here is one -- Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... -that.html

Not that it has anything to do with why Josh did what he did, of course.

edited for riffle

This was surprising to read. The Duggars and their cult are sooooo obsessed with having sex, but they don't have sex for about 2 weeks each month? (during period and a week after). I have no idea why that blows my mind. I guess I just pictured JimBoob and Michelle going at it every night :ew: :ew: :ew:

[MakingLaundrySoap]

I don't think they were using BCPs when she miscarried. She had a miscarriage and a doctor told her previous use of BCP could do this. If she had waited at least one cycle I really don't see how. However, in their grief and guilt they bought into that and took every subsequent pregnancy as a direct high-five from God.

Ah... Thanks. I live near a fundielite megamess - Church, School, Coffee Bar :wink-kitty: They are slowly going into the proported abortifacient properties of any hormone based BC. Ya do that when Hobby Lobby loves ya and all. I'm a little skered.

[DawnJosie]

FYI "You're not obligated to do anything about an erection just because it was created in your honor." Is going into the sex talk I will eventually have with my daughter. Just like "If a girl says she can't get pregnant, run!" went into my son's. (Not from here. That one comes from personal experience...)

This is also going to be reworded when we discuss sex with our now 5 year old son.

[Maggie Mae]

FYI "You're not obligated to do anything about an erection just because it was created in your honor." Is going into the sex talk I will eventually have with my daughter. Just like "If a girl says she can't get pregnant, run!" went into my son's. (Not from here. That one comes from personal experience...)

Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and you don't think your son should only be with someone who he can get pregnant. Women who are infertile deserve love too.

[ClaraOswin]

Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and you don't think your son should only be with someone who he can get pregnant. Women who are infertile deserve love too.

I am guessing what she means is that if a woman says "oh, you don't need to use a condom...I can't get pregnant." There's a chance that could be a life.

Maybe I am reading it wrong though.

[Maggie Mae]

I am guessing what she means is that if a woman says "oh, you don't need to use a condom...I can't get pregnant." There's a chance that could be a life.

Maybe I am reading it wrong though.

Oh that makes more sense with the context. Thanks.

[DaisyD]

I have known a scary number of women (I should say girls) who would encourage a (boy) not to wear a condom by saying she couldn't get pregnant. This was a trap. The statement above was part of the conversation about it being his job to not get a girl pregnant, no matter if she's on the pill or not. Fertility has nothing to do with it.

[theilnana]

Oh OH! This just makes it all that much better. I didn't see the first post, just a quote. Now, I actually see that not only did you jump someone's shit, DeFrauder, but you jump a freaking FIRST TIME POSTER.

The very thing you have been endlessly harping against, you do yourself? I don't want to EVER see you say a freaking word again about "veterans vs newbs." I am absolutely serious!

Notice what happens if you lurk and read? You actually know things like pesky facts about the people you are posting about.

OMG, I'm SO angry right now that you jumped a first time poster!

Welcome theilnana!

Have a ferret :)

[attachment=0]welcome-ferret.jpg[/attachment]

Thanks so much Curious! It's nice to be welcomed. You ladies and gentlemen know so much and I just love the FJ community. Hope I have more to contribute in the future.

[Sunshine1491]

If scandals tend to run in clusters...are we placing bets on what the next one will be? I've got fifty cents and a pepsi riding on Secret Love Child.

Any takers? :wink-kitty:

[Clementine]

This was surprising to read. The Duggars and their cult are sooooo obsessed with having sex, but they don't have sex for about 2 weeks each month? (during period and a week after). I have no idea why that blows my mind. I guess I just pictured JimBoob and Michelle going at it every night :ew: :ew: :ew:

No wonder the women get knocked up all the time. After two weeks of abstinence they go at it the week before ovulation, when the risk / chance of getting pregnant is highest. People who use natural family planning avoid having intercourse that week.

[Miggy]

This was surprising to read. The Duggars and their cult are sooooo obsessed with having sex, but they don't have sex for about 2 weeks each month? (during period and a week after). I have no idea why that blows my mind. I guess I just pictured JimBoob and Michelle going at it every night :ew: :ew: :ew:

My fundy-in-laws follow the two weeks after the start of the cycle before a woman is "clean" and also the 40/80 day thing. They have quotes from the Old Testament to justify but I've never checked the references. They are Coptic Orthodox. My SiL could not attend church for the 40/80 days either as she was unclean and there's a ritual they do when you are readmitted after that time.

[NeverQuivered]

Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and you don't think your son should only be with someone who he can get pregnant. Women who are infertile deserve love too.

I think it's referring to certain girls who say this so the guy doesn't worry about birth control and then "surprise", they are pregnant.

[bostonista]

I know this has been pseudo-mentioned in other threads but I hope someone around Anna (maybe her siblings???) tell her that she needs to get tested for a wide range of things. Do they go to the doctor for check ups or is it something they only do for a real medical emergency/illness/pregnancy?

I guess I'm wondering if her GP would say, "look- I've seen the reports and I have to recommend you get tested for STDs!" Or would a doctor pretend not to know and just let her leave? That seems irresponsible...

[Anonymousguest]

Yes it's from the old testament. I know some Messianic Jews who do the same. It's common with orthodox Jews as well. The only Protestant Christians I've heard of doing this are Gothard followers. I don't think it's common "fundie" practice outside of ATI. Though the more time I spend on FJ, the less sure I am of the definition of fundie. (Also a long time lurker here!)

[Janes Heir]

The facts are that bronze age health guidelines had a functional purpose. Having a rest from coitus after giving birth is healthy because the mother's tender bits are tender. Refraining from coitus during menstruation is desired by many women because their bits are tender during that time. Such rules were to the benefit of women even though the religious reasoning behind them is ridiculous.

True, but some women are more aroused during menstruation. One (fundie-lite?) publication I saw lately stated that that part of the Levitical code was to prevent prolapsed uteri and endometriosis resulting from the contractions of orgasm sucking uterine lining upward. (I think that was the explanation.) Friend Google gives me nothing to support this. Do any of you know if there is the slightest substantiation for this?

[gemma]

If scandals tend to run in clusters...are we placing bets on what the next one will be? I've got fifty cents and a pepsi riding on Secret Love Child.

Any takers? :wink-kitty:

That wouldn't surprise me, but I think it'll be official lawsuits we'll hear more about first....the 5th molestation victim, perhaps the DJ....... There's just so much already that they've kept hidden. Maybe a Jessica Hahn type will appear and tell all on a talk show about Josh's "performance". The Keller family is already outraged and a few are verbalizing that outrage publicly....maybe they'll retaliate with some secrets. I have a feeling there is so much more and they public will delight in exposing them as much as possible because they have been presenting themselves as holier than thou for so long. Only time will tell.....

[FrontHuggingWhore]

If scandals tend to run in clusters...are we placing bets on what the next one will be? I've got fifty cents and a pepsi riding on Secret Love Child.

Any takers? :wink-kitty:

I'm holding my breath that the next part of this saga involves him pressuring a woman to have an abortion (whether or not she did doesn't matter to this wet dream of mine). I need that to be the next bombshell. I neeeeed it.

[LilyRose]

I don't think they were using BCPs when she miscarried. She had a miscarriage and a doctor told her previous use of BCP could do this. If she had waited at least one cycle I really don't see how. However, in their grief and guilt they bought into that and took every subsequent pregnancy as a direct high-five from God.

I think she went back onto birth control after they had Josh, then had an unexpected pregnancy and miscarried.

When they went to the doctor (who clearly got his medical license from a packet of cornflakes) told them that the way The Pill sometimes work is to allow the women to get pregnant and then trigger a miscarriage. So JB and Michelle thought that they had killed their baby- and I think that's what triggered the descent into craziness.

[DeFrauder]

Yeah, just because they have an abstinence period doesn't mean they don't have sex while abstaining!

Wait, what?

Umm? Yeah...wait, what??... is right.

Is this really what you took from what I said?

It is the norm to abstain from sex after giving birth. 8 weeks is usually the minimum. That is about 40 days. Some people need longer. I assume everyone is aware of that.

The ancient Hebrews were aware of it too---which is why they talk about it in Leviticus.

When Michelle quotes some scripture and then in the next breath says that its not a rule for "New Testament Christians" she is saying that its not a rule. She IS SAYING that she abstains after giving birth for a minimum of 40 days because that is what works for her and that she believes that its a good idea because she read that advice in the bible.

She is not saying that 40 days for a boy and 80 days for a girl is THE RULE that Christians must follow. She actually said the exact opposite of that.

So no--Anna is not fast approaching day 80 and her grace period is up or whatever. No--girl babies do not make Duggar women ritually unclean like it did the ancient Hebrews. Thinking that the Duggars believe that is a gross misinterpretation of her statements on what she does for birth control (since this was the answer she gave when she was asked about what she does in terms of family planning).

[16strong]

As part of the great newbie invasion of 2015, with this, my first post, I'm going to go against the grain here and risk the wrath of the board.

While I'm sure she's a fine woman, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Anna. I do think she should dump that dolt's sorry ass but I agree with others, she's unlikely to.

The reason I don't feel sorry for her is that by her own admission, she knew he molested his sisters 2 FULL YEARS before marrying him. And knowing she would very likely have many daughters with this man, she still married him? WTF?

And how in love could she really have been with him 2 years before they married anyway? When he confessed his indiscretions as a zit-faced 15-year-old, she should have run in the other direction.

I watched the show (streamed it, anyway) and really enjoyed it--in a circus, side-show kind of way--but I always got the idea that Anna was more in love with being a Duggar (and basking in the glow of the Duggar limelight) that she ever was in Josh.

<>

Going to have to disagree here. Yes, she was and is an adult responsible for her own actions, and that should have dictated her behavior. However, we have no idea how the information about Josh was presented to her, whether she knew the full extent of the abuse, etc. Without knowing how much information she was privy to, it is hard to determine just how much responsibility she should shoulder. She might even be lying and was never told at all.

All of this said, I was a naive ignoramous at 18/20 that made some very poor relationship choices, and willingly chose to overlook some less than stellar information about the guys I was dating. Keep in mind that I grew up in a very liberal family that emphasized common sense above everything. I also went to public school.

Anna, on the other hand, not only grew up as a sheltered fundamentalist, but also as the daughter of a prison minister. There would have been a special allure to marrying a "reformed" guy. In her circles, it essentially would have been a point of pride. "My dad rehabilitated this guy who did such bad things, and now he's leading a Christ-filled life and has a Godly marriage... with me! Check out our success story!"

For a young girl such as Anna, there would have been no bigger draw than a guy like Josh. I'm sure she wanted to believe in the power of redemption, the power of what her family believes in. She wanted to be a walking testament to what her family does, and a "savior" to Josh. His public presence also would have also added to that feeling of achievement. It's so easy to say that she should have recognized his lack of marriageability, but she is from a culture that encourages marriage at a young age, and discourages dating and interpersonal relationships as a form of learning and growth.

[DeFrauder]

maybe Josh read the recent studies that showed men who had more than 20 partners in their lifetime reduced their risk of prostate cancer by about 20 percent. He was just being health conscious ! ( other studies suggested 21 or more orgasms a month also contributed to reducing the risk)

Really? I haven't seen anything about that, yet :lol: :lol:

I thought that eventually ALLL men get prostate cancer if the manage to live long enough.

I would buy that more orgasms are better for health---but I don't get how different partners would matter.

[Lewy]

I am guessing what she means is that if a woman says "oh, you don't need to use a condom...I can't get pregnant." There's a chance that could be a life.

Maybe I am reading it wrong though.

I'm infertile and that's how I read it.

I've heard many women use that line to try and get 'miracle surprise' pregnant. I always use condoms in early stages of relationships, later on when things are exclusive/std checked, they can be ditched since I can't get pregnant.

[DeFrauder]

True, but some women are more aroused during menstruation. One (fundie-lite?) publication I saw lately stated that that part of the Levitical code was to prevent prolapsed uteri and endometriosis resulting from the contractions of orgasm sucking uterine lining upward. (I think that was the explanation.) Friend Google gives me nothing to support this. Do any of you know if there is the slightest substantiation for this?

Yes--some women do like sex during menstruation and others say that sex and orgasm eases menstrual cramps.

That's interesting about the prolapsed uteri and endometriosis explanation. I can't see how bronze age people would figure something like that out, though. It is also not how a prolapse occurs. Women get a prolapse from a weakening pelvic floor caused by obesity, constipation, childbirth...those types of things. I don't know much about endometriosis but Dr Google suggests orgasms push the blood out rather than suck it up.

[Lewy]

Going to have to disagree here. Yes, she was and is an adult responsible for her own actions, and that should have dictated her behavior. However, we have no idea how the information about Josh was presented to her, whether she knew the full extent of the abuse, etc. Without knowing how much information she was privy to, it is hard to determine just how much responsibility she should shoulder. She might even be lying and was never told at all.

All of this said, I was a naive ignoramous at 18/20 that made some very poor relationship choices, and willingly chose to overlook some less than stellar information about the guys I was dating. Keep in mind that I grew up in a very liberal family that emphasized common sense above everything. I also went to public school.

Anna, on the other hand, not only grew up as a sheltered fundamentalist, but also as the daughter of a prison minister. There would have been a special allure to marrying a "reformed" guy. In her circles, it essentially would have been a point of pride. "My dad rehabilitated this guy who did such bad things, and now he's leading a Christ-filled life and has a Godly marriage... with me! Check out our success story!"

For a young girl such as Anna, there would have been no bigger draw than a guy like Josh. I'm sure she wanted to believe in the power of redemption, the power of what her family believes in. She wanted to be a walking testament to what her family does, and a "savior" to Josh. His public presence also would have also added to that feeling of achievement. It's so easy to say that she should have recognized his lack of marriageability, but she is from a culture that encourages marriage at a young age, and discourages dating and interpersonal relationships as a form of learning and growth.

I have to agree with this.

We don't know what Anna was told other than what was said in that statement following the molestation scandal and I'd be willing to bet cash that Anna didn't write that statement herself and it was written for her by the Duggars. For all we know, she knew nothing until that scandal broke and was told the 'whispers' of it were just hateful rumours from those ebil atheists on the internet.

But if she did know something? Well, if Pa Keller approved the union, Anna had no reason to doubt him because she was a brainwashed 19/20 year old fundie who was taught that Daddy knows all and she should submit to Daddy's authority. If Daddy thought he was a good match for courtship/marriage, who was Anna, a brainwashed teenager who has literally never been encouraged to have an opinion and programmed to 'keep sweet' to disagree. And after all, they do prison ministry and reform people, so their line of thinking would be Josh can be reformed and deserve forgiveness and blah blah fricking blah. And it didn't hurt that the Kellers were poor and not a prominent ATI family but now had a chance to marry a daughter off to Fundie royalty. Pa Keller was probably perfectly happy to overlook it all if he knew.

Anna never got to have a private conversation with Josh. Anna was likely not told the whole story. Anna was raised in a culture where child molestation is shoved under the rug and 'forgiven'. Anna was raised in a family that did prison ministry with the whole 'anyone can change' mentality. Anna was raised in a culture where you do NOT question your parents.

It's much easier for someone like me (mainstream schooled/college educated/late twenties/raised with feminist values/secular family where I was encouraged to have opinions and permitted to respectfully disagree with my parents) to spot the red flags that were there.

But Anna? What hope did the poor girl ever have really.

(And for having a much more reasonable upbringing, I still sit here in my late twenties thoroughly relieved I didn't marry and/or have children with any of the guys I dated/slept with when I was 19-22ish.)

[Toothfairy]

I posted this on the duggar pastor thread, but to answer your question, no- women never, ever get a free pass. Yes, if their husband commits adultery, they have a free pass for a divorce, but not for remarriage.

In the Fundie biblical universe men can get remarried if their wife commits adultery, but a woman can't get remarried if her husband commits adultery. (Otherwise the new marriage is viewed as an adulterous one; only death can end a woman's marriage.) And to get technical with you about the definition of adultery- a married man does not commit adultery if the woman he screws isn't married- only if that woman is married. But, a married woman, regardless of whether or not the man she screws is married- commits adultery either way. Two umarried heathens doing it well are only fornicators!

I'm not shitting you guys!! These are actual fundie biblical truths that have some rather obscure validity per the Letters of Paul.

All these bullshit rules are men dominated. Women are basically there to breed and be a sex toy.