A guide to Hell for small children

[Hane]

When I was in Catholic CCD classes 50+ years ago, we were taught that any baptism performed by a Catholic layperson was legit, though not documented by the parish.

[FundieFarmer]

In the bible, every Christian was a convert! Jesus never said anything about bring saved through Christian parents. Calvinists baffle me.

That's definitely some of the more creative Calvinists. I attended a church where the preacher blasted that argument to bits. There's this whole group that believes in family lines everyone is saved. Uhhuh.

[Four is Enough]

This is a recent thing, and perhaps diocese to diocese. But it is true in the Archdiocese of Baltimore. You must provide proof of confirmation. I stood as godmother to a friend's child in 2007. It was true then.

[JaChelle Sugar]

Ugh. I've known some hardcore Calvinist men who believed very strongly in original sin and preached against the idea of an 'age of accountability' citing how that idea is just works-based doctrine in disguise.

I didnt bring up the numerous miscarriages their wives suffered. The families would name the miscarried fetus and count it as a child in heaven. I didnt ask why they assumed all the fetuses were conveniently elect.

[Lady Grass Lake]

Raised Catholic now Christian but not sect specific. My grandmother spent years praying my Grandpa into heaven. I always imagined Purgatory as this dreary room filled with benches and all the people had counters over their heads counting down until they got to 0 and went to heaven. Each mass said in his name or lit candles our prayers made the counter decrease. She paid for a weekly mass for him. I now think it was a way to suck even more money from the faithful.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Slightly OT, but what is the appeal of Calvinism to people? I first heard about it in university, when they needed to explain it so we'd understand the Protestant Reformation, growth of capitalism and modern European history. It didn't make any sense to me back then, although I suppose socialist political science profs aren't preachers and can't be expected to make it sound appealing.

So, if you believe that everything is predestined and you can't even decided to be good or bad - where does morality come into play? Why bother to make an effort? Why care about other people?

[Firiel]

So, if you believe that everything is predestined and you can't even decided to be good or bad - where does morality come into play? Why bother to make an effort? Why care about other people?

Honestly, I think this is the "bingo" right here.

It removes personal/social responsibility. The world is in a bad state because of original sin, not because of our social or political choices. The lawbreakers are evil because of an inherent problem with themselves, not with society. We can't do anything about it. The poor are poor because of God's plan, so why should we attempt to make things better? And the kicker-- I am somehow special because God saved me. I never have to worry about not being special because my salvation is secured.

It's a theology where YOU are safe and where OTHERS are beyond help. Talk about easy (IMO).

I've got some half-formed ideas about the Calvinist beginnings of capitalism and the way that interacts with the Evangelical, free-will movement that also played a defining role in the socio-religious landscape of the US.

[Zoria]

Well I learned something new today.

What the fuck. That's so sick. A God who would punish babies... Why would anyone believe in such a cruel God? I wonder if Zsu does.

[Firiel]

What the fuck. That's so sick. A God who would punish babies... Why would anyone believe in such a cruel God? I wonder if Zsu does.

They are VERY anti-Calvinist, so I doubt it.

Historically, Baptists are not Calvinists, though some Baptist groups have gone that way more recently.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Ben Seewald is a Calvinist baptist.

Zsu and PP loathe Calvinism.

[nomoxian]

According to what I was taught, people like that also go to Heaven automatically. I know not everyone agrees, though.

I was raised LDS/Mormon and from what I was taught, they go to heaven, as well as anyone who dies under the age of 8. Anyone who died before learning about the gospel can also go to heaven if they accept the teachings after they die, and after they are baptized (in proxy by a living person in the temple)

[nomoxian]

A lot of reformed people do believe babies and kids go to hell. Although, I must say, I asked Michael Seewald about this in his blog and he said he did not believe babies go to hell. He did not comment on kids going to hell. And he's pretty reformed. He probably believes if any babies die they were elect. People like to just make up their own rules...

I think the Duggars believe the same thing since they talk about how they will see Jubilee after they die... no talk about J-caleb, at least that I recall hearing. Who knows what they talk about off camera though.

[Firiel]

I think the Duggars believe the same thing since they talk about how they will see Jubilee after they die... no talk about J-caleb, at least that I recall hearing. Who knows what they talk about off camera though.

AFAIK, the Duggars are not Calvinist (except Ben and I guess by proxy, Jessa). I believe ATI holds to an Arminian theology instead. So while the Duggars likely do believe all babies go to heaven, it's not because the babies were predestined but rather because the babies died before they had the mental capacity to understand and choose grace/salvation.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

AFAIK, the Duggars are not Calvinist (except Ben and I guess by proxy, Jessa). I believe ATI holds to an Arminian theology instead. So while the Duggars likely do believe all babies go to heaven, it's not because the babies were predestined but rather because the babies died before they had the mental capacity to understand and choose grace/salvation.

And yet, they also believe people who have never heard of Jesus will also go to hell, hence the need for missionaries. Salvation is a tricky thing.

[Hane]

When I was a little kid in the '50s, a common theme of Saturday daytime TV was "darkest Africa," complete with cannibals (which scared the bejeebers out of me and gave me nightmares). I once asked my mom (our family was Roman Catholic but not obsessive about it) if cannibals would go to heaven. "Yes," she said, "because they don't know any better." A running point of my religious formation was that God knows what you're thinking, and can tell whether you're really trying your best to be a good person. A priest I once met told me he believes that God thinks most well-meaning people are too damn hard on themselves.

Re Calvinists and predestination: What is the point of choosing a religion that makes you feel WORSE instead of better?

[Burris]

The acceptance of predestination creates a situation where there is no point at all in trying to proselytize those who don't subscribe: For the Elect, the desire to follow religious edicts would be in-born, even while there would be no desire by the reprobate to take religious observance seriously.

Beyond their effort to prove they're among the Elect, there is no reason for women in that belief-system to have children at all since some portion of those children could be sent to hell - tortured forever - for the crime of having been built by god merely as a demonstration of how the creator is capricious, cruel, and hungry for the fearful worship of its subjects.

I've asked a few Calvinists online to explain why anyone not among them should observe Christian traditions at all, and have never received a sensible answer.

[Geechee Girl]

Ex-Southern Baptist & SDA. Hell is for those who reject the Truth^TM and/or refuse to be Saved^TM after hearing the Word. Only the unSaved after the Second Resurrection & Millennium will be cast into Hell with Satan. I was taught this meant dead children & babies will have the opportunity to live and come of age during the Millennium, therefore they will have to chance to accept the Word or reject it like everyone else.

[salex]

Re Calvinists and predestination: What is the point of choosing a religion that makes you feel WORSE instead of better?

I would guess that all the deep hard core Calvinists assume they are among the elect, so they can be happy and smug about their salvation.

[elizasc]

My PCA grandmother certainly believed that