Fundie, fundie-lite, and conservative Christian

[Firiel]

I feel like a lot of times the terms "fundie," "fundie-lite," and "conservative Christian" have different definitions for people who post here. That makes sense, but sometimes I think it leads to confusion. I thought it might be a good idea for us to lay out how we all use these terms. I mean, we won't come to any consensus, I'm sure, but sometimes I think that even seeing the variety of definitions could cut down on some of the confusion. So here's the way I see them.

Fundie: Separate from the world type of extreme. Often stands out in a crowd. Think Duggars in knee length denim skirts. Very legalistic and tends towards courtship and lack of education for women. Vision Forum, ATI, etc. Typically homeschooling only.

Fundie-lite: Their theological views are not much different and they still are very intolerant. But they will wear "normal" clothes, they may date (but still tend to marry young and have a huge focus on purity). Education is more acceptable, but gender roles are still very important. Women should still stay home with kids and give all the sex the man wants. I see Lori Alexander and Mark Driscoll as being in this category. Has no problem with Christian schools for their kids and may send their kids to public schools.

Conservative Christian: These guys might have a similar theology to fundie-lite folks, but the focus will be different. They may think being gay is a sin, but they are not dicks about it and probably feel like it's no different from straight, non-Christian couples living together before marriage. I consider my family of origin in this category. They are very conservative but still respect me even though I am doing things differently. Don't believe in divorce in general but support women/men leaving bad relationships. Don't care if mothers work outside of the home or not, even though they still buy into "women are emotional, men are doers!" type stuff. Support education and critical thinking, for the most part.

So how do you guys define these terms?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yeah, I pretty much go by that definition.

[formergothardite]

I think that you can still dress in pretty normal clothes and be fundie. There are plenty of fundie ATI families that wear shorts, pants and regular bathing suits. I think that sometimes people think that a family wearing pants and shorts means that their beliefs are not as extreme as the skirt-only people but there are some skirt-only people whose beliefs are less extreme than some of the pants wearing ATI families. I know one family that is skirt-only, but encourage their daughters to have careers, get a good education and choose their own husbands.

To me fundie-lite folks are not that different than conservative Christians. They are the ones who claim to believe that the Bible is literal and would probably vote against gay marriage, but at the same time women work outside the home, the kids go to public school and being divorced isn't that huge of a sin. I know lots of these folks.

[Cleopatra7]

To me, there are different degrees of fundamentalism. At the farthest end are separatists who try practice "secondary separation" and try to have as little to do with secular society as possible. I would put homesteaders, the Amish, Gothardists, Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, and the Plymouth Brethren in this category, since they all try to create their own self-contained subcultures and discourage their children from showing any interest in life outside of the sect. Distinctive clothing styles are also used by separatist fundamentalists to emphasize their difference vis a vis the secular world and as a means of enforcing a uniform identity among followers.

Fundie-lites engage with secular culture to some extent, but still insist on following the "fundamentals" of their particular religion. Consequently, fundie-lites may be more dangerous than the separatist fundies, because they are more engaged in actively changing the secular culture and know how to market themselves better. Fundie-lites also tend to be hangers-on of separatist fundamentalists and can give such groups a mainstream gloss by their association. For example, Gothard may have dreamed about "taking back America" with his ATI army, but how far could he really get when he instructs his followers to stay uneducated and living on the fringes of society? However, Gothard has managed to ingratiate himself into mainstream conservatism through his "Cities of Character" front group and his Basic Life Principles seminars which allow fundie lite and conservative Christians to get his core ideas without going all into ATI. The JWs are sort of in-between separatist fundamentalists and fundie-lite, at least in the sense that they deal with the secular world by being "in the world, but not of it." So many JWs have no problem with sending their children to public school or letting girls wear pants, but won't vote, celebrate Christmas, get a blood transfusion, or a salute a flag. While the JWs may stick together, there isn't that impulse to go homestead or leave society altogether that you see in the more "classical" separatist fundamentalists.

"Regular conservatives" are those that are theologically conservative, but don't have a problem with engaging with secular culture (at least not those aspects that they themselves enjoy). This group is more difficult to define, since it covers a lot of ground. Some may be really into being committed Christians, while others may simply be Christian because that's what people do in their area and they've never thought to question it. Separatist fundamentalists and fundie-lites tend to find the "regular conservatives" to be too lax and/or compromising with "the world" and often considered them to be part of the problem, as they see it. I think the Wartburg Watch ladies would fall into this category, since they self-identify with the Southern Baptist Convention, but are very critical of many trends within conservative Christianity.

[mango_fandango]

To me, there are different degrees of fundamentalism. At the farthest end are separatists who try practice "secondary separation" and try to have as little to do with secular society as possible. I would put homesteaders, the Amish, Gothardists, Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, and the Plymouth Brethren in this category, since they all try to create their own self-contained subcultures and discourage their children from showing any interest in life outside of the sect. Distinctive clothing styles are also used by separatist fundamentalists to emphasize their difference vis a vis the secular world and as a means of enforcing a uniform identity among followers.

Fundie-lites engage with secular culture to some extent, but still insist on following the "fundamentals" of their particular religion. Consequently, fundie-lites may be more dangerous than the separatist fundies, because they are more engaged in actively changing the secular culture and know how to market themselves better. Fundie-lites also tend to be hangers-on of separatist fundamentalists and can give such groups a mainstream gloss by their association. For example, Gothard may have dreamed about "taking back America" with his ATI army, but how far could he really get when he instructs his followers to stay uneducated and living on the fringes of society? However, Gothard has managed to ingratiate himself into mainstream conservatism through his "Cities of Character" front group and his Basic Life Principles seminars which allow fundie lite and conservative Christians to get his core ideas without going all into ATI. The JWs are sort of in-between separatist fundamentalists and fundie-lite, at least in the sense that they deal with the secular world by being "in the world, but not of it." So many JWs have no problem with sending their children to public school or letting girls wear pants, but won't vote, celebrate Christmas, get a blood transfusion, or a salute a flag. While the JWs may stick together, there isn't that impulse to go homestead or leave society altogether that you see in the more "classical" separatist fundamentalists.

"Regular conservatives" are those that are theologically conservative, but don't have a problem with engaging with secular culture (at least not those aspects that they themselves enjoy). This group is more difficult to define, since it covers a lot of ground. Some may be really into being committed Christians, while others may simply be Christian because that's what people do in their area and they've never thought to question it. Separatist fundamentalists and fundie-lites tend to find the "regular conservatives" to be too lax and/or compromising with "the world" and often considered them to be part of the problem, as they see it. I think the Wartburg Watch ladies would fall into this category, since they self-identify with the Southern Baptist Convention, but are very critical of many trends within conservative Christianity.

Hmm. The Duggars are definitely firmly in the "fundie" category, being both Gothardists and Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, yet they know a lot more about the 'secular' world than the Amish or Plymouth Brethren, although probably only because of the TV show. If they didn't have the show, they'd still be in those shapeless fundie sacks. Of course they don't watch non-religious films nor do they listen to secular music, but I'd put the Duggars (and probably the Bateses too) in their own little subcategory within Fundies. And I wouldn't call them fundie-lite... seeing as public school and pants for girls are a huge no-no. So where do they go?

[eri]

Women are emotional, men are doers.

Lol. I come from a family of emotional men and I have the same temperament as Jessa. I always get my hands dirty with projects like building furniture, fixing plumbing, some car stuff (I'm no car buff, however), and am really into hard science.

I am certain by now that if gender had anything to do with my mental and emotional abilities I would be a totally different woman.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

I guess I don't see much distinction between "fundie lite" and "conservative Christian." Hell, I'm not sure it's even possible to put so many different churches and individuals on a linear spectrum-- the relationship between Mennonites and Presbyterians is way more complex than "one is more conservative."* And individual evangelicals have a grab bag of practices to choose from-- one family might be super modest in dress but send their kids to regular colleges, another may listen to mainstream music but give their kids a totally twisted science education, etc.

*I don't know enough about theology to really comment, but I know that Fred Clark at slacktivist writes often about how the words "conservative" and "liberal" can mean totally different things to different people when it comes to religion.

[RosyDaisy]

Nobody has mentioned this, but be careful when talking about Evangelical Christians. There are liberal ones out there whose main goal is to show Christ's love by providing humanitarian aid and/relief, not expecting anything in return, preaching and throwing in Bibles in people's faces, and by continuing friendships made.

[nelliebelle1197]

I guess I don't see much distinction between "fundie lite" and "conservative Christian." Hell, I'm not sure it's even possible to put so many different churches and individuals on a linear spectrum-- the relationship between Mennonites and Presbyterians is way more complex than "one is more conservative."* And individual evangelicals have a grab bag of practices to choose from-- one family might be super modest in dress but send their kids to regular colleges, another may listen to mainstream music but give their kids a totally twisted science education, etc.

*I don't know enough about theology to really comment, but I know that Fred Clark at slacktivist writes often about how the words "conservative" and "liberal" can mean totally different things to different people when it comes to religion.

I totally agree, but I think categories just to get your head around it are actually useful.

I think if you combine Cleo and FG's definitions you get it:

Separatists (see above plus some of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish and faux-Jesus-Jew sects)

Fundies- IFB, Gothard, Pentecostals, traditional Catholics, VH, Covenant Presbyterian, Orthodox Jews, etc. FG is right that with fundies you can't go by clothes. That is why some of who have lived in these cultures get a bit bent out of shape when when people start proclaiming that putting on a pair of jeans means you aren't fundie anymore.

Fundie light/conservative Christian - I am not sure how you would draw a line - this is the same thing. But I think anyone who is really observant but more modern with education, gender roles and pop culture falls into a fundie light category - Conservative Jews, major conservative mainstream Christian denominations.

[Firiel]

I totally agree, but I think categories just to get your head around it are actually useful.

I think if you combine Cleo and FG's definitions you get it:

Separatists (see above plus some of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish and faux-Jesus-Jew sects)

Fundies- IFB, Gothard, Pentecostals, traditional Catholics, VH, Covenant Presbyterian, Orthodox Jews, etc. FG is right that with fundies you can't go by clothes. That is why some of who have lived in these cultures get a bit bent out of shape when when people start proclaiming that putting on a pair of jeans means you aren't fundie anymore.

Fundie light/conservative Christian - I am not sure how you would draw a line - this is the same thing. But I think anyone who is really observant but more modern with education, gender roles and pop culture falls into a fundie light category - Conservative Jews, major conservative mainstream Christian denominations.

I think the fundie-light/conservative Christian category is the hardest one to draw the line for. But I think there is such a huge difference between people like Lori and the conservative folks I grew up around that I just can't place them in the same category. Lori puts her beliefs above people all the time, whereas the conservative Christian environment in which I grew up typically put people above their beliefs. I tend to think of fundie-lite folks as those who discourage critical thinking and convince themselves that the world is black-and-white. Conservative Christians, IMO, are more okay with at least some shades of gray. I feel like for me maybe this distinction is something that is hard to make unless I am familiar with the people involved.

[nelliebelle1197]

I think the fundie-light/conservative Christian category is the hardest one to draw the line for. But I think there is such a huge difference between people like Lori and the conservative folks I grew up around that I just can't place them in the same category. Lori puts her beliefs above people all the time, whereas the conservative Christian environment in which I grew up typically put people above their beliefs. I tend to think of fundie-lite folks as those who discourage critical thinking and convince themselves that the world is black-and-white. Conservative Christians, IMO, are more okay with at least some shades of gray. I feel like for me maybe this distinction is something that is hard to make unless I am familiar with the people involved.

Like anything, it is a spectrum. And you never know how people who actually know Lori feel or how others would perceive the people you grew up with.

[descovy]

Fundie: Stays separate from us worldly heathens. Skirt wearing, anti government, anti education types. No music with a beat, even Christian music. The kind that need an accountability chaperone to go to Walmart.

Fundie-Lite: Homeschool, but probably go to a college like Liberty University, KJV only type Baptists, let girls wear pants, maybe listen to contemporary Christian music. May or may not allow dancing. (Ex: I used to hang with some Nazarene college students who would tease each other for looking like they were dancing... not allowed!, while ice skating)

Conservative Christian: See the Texas suburb I live in :lol: Hobby Lobby Crosses all over the walls, "Non Denominational" churches that try to convert my kids to their typed of Christianity during VBS. Listen to Christian Rock all the time. When you meet them, they ask what church you go to. Seem sweet to my kids (ELCA Lutheran heathens) but really feel morally superior.

God blessed Amurica ( and only Amurica!!!) and all that :nenner:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I would also look at:

- ethnic diversity (I hear about really whites fundies but the most religious ones I know IRL are Asian or black)

- emphasis on controlling what others do. There are some groups that have very strict rules for members which also discourage political involvement and/or have strict pacifist views. Amish and JW would be in this category.

[Cleopatra7]

I would also look at:

- ethnic diversity (I hear about really whites fundies but the most religious ones I know IRL are Asian or black)

- emphasis on controlling what others do. There are some groups that have very strict rules for members which also discourage political involvement and/or have strict pacifist views. Amish and JW would be in this category.

I think the difference with non-white fundies is that their main concern is policing the boundaries of their own communities, not changing American society as a whole (and I would put ultra-Orthodox Jews in this category as well). Regardless of what non-white fundies may think about prayer in school, homosexuality, or any of the "culture war issues," very few of them are going to team up with white conservatives who want to "take America back" because they understand that they are the people that said conservatives are trying to take America back from. Many white fundamentalists still look down on "music with a beat" (code for "black music") even if it's gospel music. 11AM on Sunday is still the most segregated hour in America, to quote MLK, and it's difficult for fundies of different races to overcome their cultural differences. All you have to do is see how uncomfortable the Duggars were at the integrated church in Little Rock with the contemporary Christian music, which makes me wonder if that church was chosen by the producers rather than JB. Surely, there had to have been a "Bible-believing" IFB church in Little Rock that would have met the Duggars' requirements. :think:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I did a bit of background reading on this re Christianity, and noticed a few parallels with Judaism and Islam.

So, to start, we often have the old basic beliefs of a faith. Then, modern life happens, those basics get challenged.

Some stop being religious altogether.

Some re-interpret the basic beliefs in a more critical or liberal way, and these become the liberal denominations.

Among those who stick to the old basic beliefs:

Some increasingly see their beliefs as being under attack, and adopt an increasingly hostile view of outsiders/modern life. They may be critical of the outside culture, secular education, etc. As a result, there may be a degree of withdrawal/separatism.

In addition to this physical separation, there may be a spiritual purging - the group may focus on more beliefs than just the old basics, and may insist on total belief and lack of questioning. These become the fundamentalists.

Among fundamentalists, there are those whose focus is solely or primarily inward, and those who focus on enforcing their views on others - at one extreme, even through violent means.

Some of those with the old basic beliefs got turned off of the fundamentalists direction. They kept their beliefs, but engage with the world. Some do so just on a practical level, as necessary. Some do so on a spiritual level too, trying to reach out to others. For some, engagement with the world will also mean engaging in social action, political action, with a goal of creating what they see as a more moral society. The definition of "more moral" will vary, depending on the particular beliefs and political leanings of the group. This is the evangelical group.

Within this group, there will be those that place a very high emphasis on drawing in "lost sheep". You can get leaders who will reach out and welcome anybody - but who won't accept all beliefs. This is particularly appealing to those who are on the margins, who haven't really found their place religiously before, and who are looking for both an open door and religious certainty. Some beliefs may be the same as the fundamentalists, but they will draw in a different crowd. This group will point to the number of people they attract, while the fundamentalists will point out that these people may be less disciplined in belief and practice.

On the more liberal evangelical wing, you get those who don't reject everything in the outside world as evil, and who will incorporate modern ideas and values so long as they don't contradict the basic beliefs. They may look for ways that the two can work together or complement each other.