Have You Accepted Jesus Christ as Your Lord and Savior?

[Moonbeam]

A colleague asked if I would post this question on my fundie watching forum. He is wondering about when the requirement came about for evangelical Christians to formally "accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior." This is certainly not something that seemed to exist in 18th or 19th century christianity. Does that mean that Martin Luther and his peers are all burning in hell because they didn't say the magic words? Any thoughts or information on how/when this evolved (probably not the best term for this :lol: )

[SunnyAndrsn]

A colleague asked if I would post this question on my fundie watching forum. He is wondering about when the requirement came about for evangelical Christians to formally "accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior." This is certainly not something that seemed to exist in 18th or 19th century christianity. Does that mean that Martin Luther and his peers are all burning in hell because they didn't say the magic words? Any thoughts or information on how/when this evolved (probably not the best term for this :lol: )

The first time I ever had anyone ask me that was 2001, when we moved into our current neighborhood. We were in a new development and as we got to know our neighbors, they brought this up. They would say they are just Christian; I'd describe them as fundie light.

Growing up as a Lutheran, we were more worried about how we'd manage the Friday night fish fries next to those idol worshiping Catholics.

[KittenMitten]

I don't have an answer, but I look forward to hearing from people who know. I enjoy reading children's literature from past. God was presented as a friend who supports you and gives you strength in hard times. I could get behind such a God. The God I grew up with was exacting and punitive with very ridged rules. A scary entity, not very nice.

[SPHASH]

To answer your question, yes I have. But I am going to hell anyway according to the Duggars, Steve Maxwell, and John Shrader cuz I kissed a guy before marriage, love sports and coin collecting, and don't wear frumpers, and am not a Biblical Baptist.

[SharonYvonne]

I don't know the answer to this, and it's something I've never thought about, but now that I have, my curiosity is really aroused, I was raised Southern Baptist, and this idea was a BIG part of my religious training. I was taught that anyone who had not formerly "accepted Christ" was NOT a Christian, no matter whether they called themselves that or not. Entire denominations (especally Catholics) were not included in the definition of "Christian" that I was taught. Didn't matter if you belonged to a church and followed its teachings devoutly. Didn't matter if you had been baptized or if you read the Bible till you were blue in the face. Without this step, none of the other stuff counted.You could not be "saved" (and were therefore headed straight for hell) unless you made a "personal decision for Christ" (another term for the same thing) .

Looking back now, I find this idea really weird, and the idea idea of someone thinking they have the right to pronounce judgment on others strikes me as incredibly arrogant and presumptuous.

I was also taught that once you accepted Christ, you became a "new creature" (per the KJV Bible--I couldn't remember the exact reference so I googled; it's 2 Corinthians 5:17, if anyone is interested). Your life was supposed to be completely transformed, and you were supposed to be filled with joy and with "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding" (Philippians 4:7). Since I never experienced that feeling, I remember wondering what was wrong with me, and being extremely worried about whether I was really "saved." It was horrible!

I would be EXTREMELY interested to know where and when this idea popped up and became entrenched in fundie Christianity.

[formergothardite]

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! :dance: I got baptized and spent most of my life living for the Lord. It ends up, at least according to some Christians, none of it was real because I have asked Jesus to leave my life. Apparently it is easier for some Christians to believe that I was never really one of them rather than accept that real Christians can lose their faith.

I would love to know the history of this too.

[LeatherCouch]

This is a case of picking a scripture you like and making it doctrine. It's based on Romans 10:9-10: "9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

I don't know when it came about, but I'm nearly 40 and it was well in place when I was a child. I remember the adults around me being almost frantic for the children in my church and (Christian) school to "confess their sins and accept Jesus as their Savior".

[BullyJBG]

Yes I have. In my church currently we are talking about just that. Basically, God knows our hearts and whether we sincerely are choosing to live the Christian life for Him, or just going through the motions. Making the choice, telling someone, and then being baptized, (a public declaration of that choice) it's all part of the process. Saying that prayer is only the first step.

Has any of them mentioned; Steve Maxwell, Jimbob Duggar, or John Shrader, about desperately praying for people to be "convicted" of their "different attire"(like women wearing pants), kissing before marriage, doing sports, etc? Or literally telling them if they don't give them up they're going to hell? I could see it for living a lifestyle of sin(living together as a couple but not married) and I struggle with people I know who have been Christians, or say they are, who do this. But those first examples are different convictions, and don't they say this is how God called them to live, but it's not for everyone? There's something in Corinthians about this; how eating meat that was originally sacrificed to idols may be too hard for some people but not for others, so be sensitive to each other.

Good discussion.

[Jana814]

I've never been ask this. If I see preaching on the streets I just walk the other directing.

[samurai_sarah]

The only thing my google-fu could come up with is an old threat from the straightdope:

New York Herald, 1870.

A story about various churches in NYC at that time. The quote came from a sermon at Calvary Baptist Church.

In the same thread the same poster is also saying that s/he couldn't come up with mentions before 1870.

boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245716

[latraviata]

A colleague asked if I would post this question on my fundie watching forum. He is wondering about when the requirement came about for evangelical Christians to formally "accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior." This is certainly not something that seemed to exist in 18th or 19th century christianity. Does that mean that Martin Luther and his peers are all burning in hell because they didn't say the magic words? Any thoughts or information on how/when this evolved (probably not the best term for this :lol: )

Certainly not!

[3DMommy]

I was in 6th grade so sometime in 2001-2002. We had weekly Wednesday chapel at our Baptist school and we had an alter call, and were also invited to share our stories of being saved. Most of the kids who shared their stories were saved between 6-8 years old. My best friend and I were "saved" that day, we looked at each other and agreed to go together, Not that we felt like we were given much of a choice.

She was a Catholic, and my family were "Methodists" at the time. (I stopped drinking the kool aid at 8 or 9) We agreed to not tell our familes about it, but our cover was blown a few weeks later at parent teacher night by our math teacher. Her parents were upset that she felt pressured, they pulled her out at the end of the year and she went to catholic school from then on. My family however was so proud they enrolled me the next day in the baptism class at our church.

Being "Methodists" (I'm not honestly sure how Methodist our church was what with it being so racist and insane) I remember alter calls as early as the mid 90's both in the main service and Sunday school.

[fundiefan]

No, I haven't, Jesus ain't my thing. If I go to some mythical hell for that, oh well.

[Loveday]

Not sure just when this question first surfaced in Christianity. But I first heard it in junior high school, and followed through when I was 15, at a Young Life weekend retreat. When I came home and picked up my Bible, it opened to the page with 2 Corinthians 5:17. To me, it was a sign.

But I wasn't baptised until many years later, when I joined the Catholic church. So to all the fundies we discuss here, I'm not a *real* born-again Christian, I'm the wrong brand. :roll:

[Hane]

I grew up as a "born-once" Catholic. It was always understood that the Biblical injunction to be "born again" was meant for people who hadn't even been Christians in the first place--so, anyone born into the faith and raised that way was a de facto Christian. The attitude was that God knows you down to the depth of your soul, and is fully aware of your intentions, and thus is not going to condemn you for doubt or disbelief, just as long as you try your best to be a decent and ethical person. (I sum this up, when I think of the fundies, as "My God is smarter than your God.")

One thing that troubles me about our fundies: What's to stop a "higher-up" from saying to one of them, "You think you're 'saved'? Well, *I* think you aren't, because you don't act/do [whatever].'

Nowadays, I'm a theistic-leaning UU who isn't sure whether Jesus existed as a historical being, though I totally get behind the teachings attributed to him in the Christian scriptures (aka the New Testament).

[Cleopatra7]

I've often wondered where the "Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior" thing came from as well. I can't imagine the medieval church, much less reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, or Menno Simons using that kind of language. I can't even imagine the Wesley brothers saying it. Perhaps in the days of Christendom, it was taken for granted that Christ was already king over everything, do saying he was your personal lord and savior was redundant. The idea of a personal lord and savior is a very individualistic notion of salvation, which is also very modern and very American.

[Flyinthesoup]

I have questioned some of this over the years as well, but have not studied it. When I first heard this phrase, about 8 years ago, I was a little shocked.

A quick search on "Lordship Salvation" will bring up links for you. Here is one from Wiki, but the article obviously needs more documentation, but it offers up some interesting information. http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_salvation_controversy

I believe many of these types of terms "Jesus Christ as Your Lord and Savior" and "ask Jesus into your heart" stem from wanting to distinguish the "real Christian" with someone who just "claims to be Christian". There's even the movement to use the word "Believer", rather than "Christian", because of how people feel the word "Christian" has been cheapened.

I can think of a few verses that might be at the base of all this, but I still think these phrases are more detrimental and cause confusion.

[formergothardite]

Yes I have. In my church currently we are talking about just that. Basically, God knows our hearts and whether we sincerely are choosing to live the Christian life for Him, or just going through the motions. Making the choice, telling someone, and then being baptized, (a public declaration of that choice) it's all part of the process. Saying that prayer is only the first step.

Has any of them mentioned; Steve Maxwell, Jimbob Duggar, or John Shrader, about desperately praying for people to be "convicted" of their "different attire"(like women wearing pants), kissing before marriage, doing sports, etc? Or literally telling them if they don't give them up they're going to hell? I could see it for living a lifestyle of sin(living together as a couple but not married) and I struggle with people I know who have been Christians, or say they are, who do this. But those first examples are different convictions, and don't they say this is how God called them to live, but it's not for everyone? There's something in Corinthians about this; how eating meat that was originally sacrificed to idols may be too hard for some people but not for others, so be sensitive to each other.

Good discussion.

This is what I taught growing up. It was also used to explain away Christians who left the faith. It was always "We thought they were Christians and they went through the motions of looking like a Christian, but God knew their heart and they weren't sincerely choosing the faith." I always believed it. Now that I am on the other side of the fence I know that it isn't true. I was sincere with my faith and I WAS a real Christian.

The crazy thing is that we were also "once saved, always saved" so a person could have a period of "living in sin" but as long as they eventually came back to the faith they were "true Christians".

[salex]

I was in 6th grade so sometime in 2001-2002. We had weekly Wednesday chapel at our Baptist school and we had an alter call, and were also invited to share our stories of being saved. Most of the kids who shared their stories were saved between 6-8 years old. My best friend and I were "saved" that day, we looked at each other and agreed to go together, Not that we felt like we were given much of a choice.

She was a Catholic, and my family were "Methodists" at the time. (I stopped drinking the kool aid at 8 or 9) We agreed to not tell our familes about it, but our cover was blown a few weeks later at parent teacher night by our math teacher. Her parents were upset that she felt pressured, they pulled her out at the end of the year and she went to catholic school from then on. My family however was so proud they enrolled me the next day in the baptism class at our church.

Being "Methodists" (I'm not honestly sure how Methodist our church was what with it being so racist and insane) I remember alter calls as early as the mid 90's both in the main service and Sunday school.

That is interesting, since I was raised a Methodist in small town Kansas through the 60s and the late 70s. and we didn't ever have altar calls....we didn't use the term "saved" or talk about born again or read Revelation. We got a little "jesus people" influence when my older cousin came back with some Jesus People Friends, but the church itself was leaned left... more left than my parents, but they were certainly not fundie.

[3DMommy]

That is interesting, since I was raised a Methodist in small town Kansas through the 60s and the late 70s. and we didn't ever have altar calls....we didn't use the term "saved" or talk about born again or read Revelation. We got a little "jesus people" influence when my older cousin came back with some Jesus People Friends, but the church itself was leaned left... more left than my parents, but they were certainly not fundie.

It's calls Windsor village united Methodist church. This is a very large, membership is close to 20,000 (predominately black, ok all black when I attended) church in Houston. They are still Methodist (although in the early 2000s there were talks about leaving. When we left the church they no longer celebrated Christmas (possibly because of the evil white Santa), but did celebrate kwanza (we didn't).

It was very awkward for me being (obviously) half white (which alone created it's own problems during church camp) and the whole African pride thing made me uncomfortable. Although my adoptive mother never seemed to notice or care. It's probably what made me start questioning the church so much at such a young age. By the time we left alter calls happened at every service.

[salex]

It's calls Windsor village united Methodist church. This is a very large, membership is close to 20,000 (predominately black, ok all black when I attended) church in Houston. They are still Methodist (although in the early 2000s there were talks about leaving. When we left the church they no longer celebrated Christmas (possibly because of the evil white Santa), but did celebrate kwanza (we didn't).

It was very awkward for me being (obviously) half white (which alone created it's own problems during church camp) and the whole African pride thing made me uncomfortable. Although my adoptive mother never seemed to notice or care. It's probably what made me start questioning the church so much at such a young age. By the time we left alter calls happened at every service.

I think it is interesting how even the "branded" denominations can vary wildly between churches.

[doggie]

a true Christian is like a true pizza or a true hamburger or a true hotdog. no such thing. To watch christians arguing over who is truly saved and who is not and who has the true faith is sad but entertaining. Christianity the one true faith in 10,000 flavors and all of them are different.

this is from a article about marriage equality but it really describes religion and what people choose well.

I know what you're probably thinking right now: Kyle, you're cherry-picking little bits and pieces of the Bible to make a ridiculous argument.

The thing here is that everyone is cherry-picking.

Religions are grocery stores with many shelves, and you get to pick what you put in your cart. If you want to shop for junk that's going to make you sick, that's your prerogative. If you want to stick to the outer aisles where most of the unprocessed, healthy things are, you can do that, too.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7)

So I'm going to put that in my basket, and when I get to the checkout line, if I see a few same-sex couples here and there who want to get married, I'm going to be happy for them and wish them the best.

Because the definition of marriage is between two people. They define what it means to them the same way couples may write their own wedding vows -- without any editing from the government.

[KittenMitten]

I was also taught that once you accepted Christ, you became a "new creature" (per the KJV Bible--I couldn't remember the exact reference so I googled; it's 2 Corinthians 5:17, if anyone is interested). Your life was supposed to be completely transformed, and you were supposed to be filled with joy and with "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding" (Philippians 4:7). Since I never experienced that feeling, I remember wondering what was wrong with me, and being extremely worried about whether I was really "saved." It was horrible!

.

Welcome SharonYvonne.

This. THIS. I was actually brought up Methodist, not overly strict. Early Sunday School classes were lovely stories and sweet crafts. But there were bullies in the youth group who described just the above. I was like you SharonYvonne. I didn't feel this joy and rapture, pun kind of intended. I kept asking Christ into my heart but never happened. Not transformed, no peace (like teens feel much peace). Not a new creature. But in 4th grade we were given a comic book about the Rapture, which was pretty specific. You had to be the right type of Christian to get Raptured. Little boy in story was a good little boy but didn't always go to Sunday School. He was left behind. I was like that little boy. Good kid, but not the right Christian. Yes, it was horrible and I was terrified for years. Time past and I grew away from Christianity and eventually became atheist. Was able to banish the last voice in my head about going to hell in the past 6 months or so. Thanks freejinger and other sites. Funny thing though, I was always a quiet and reserved little kid and never shared my thoughts. A few months ago I discussed this with my mom, who still goes to the same Church. I told her about the comic book and asked her what she thought about Rapture. Her response: What the hell is Rapture? :angry-banghead:

God, I felt stupid, but that was the final release I needed.

So, I'm not saved. Like others, I'd prefer hell to that God's heaven. I described heaven to my atheist kid. His comment? It sounds boring and could use some upgrades and mod packs. Yes, he's a gamer.

I too, would like to know where this belief came from.

[Sobeknofret]

I attended a Church of Christ briefly in the mid-80's and never once heard anything like that phrase. Certainly, in my Catholic church it would never have been said, and now that I'm a Quaker definitely not.

[Cleopatra7]

I was in 6th grade so sometime in 2001-2002. We had weekly Wednesday chapel at our Baptist school and we had an alter call, and were also invited to share our stories of being saved. Most of the kids who shared their stories were saved between 6-8 years old. My best friend and I were "saved" that day, we looked at each other and agreed to go together, Not that we felt like we were given much of a choice.

She was a Catholic, and my family were "Methodists" at the time. (I stopped drinking the kool aid at 8 or 9) We agreed to not tell our familes about it, but our cover was blown a few weeks later at parent teacher night by our math teacher. Her parents were upset that she felt pressured, they pulled her out at the end of the year and she went to catholic school from then on. My family however was so proud they enrolled me the next day in the baptism class at our church.

Being "Methodists" (I'm not honestly sure how Methodist our church was what with it being so racist and insane) I remember alter calls as early as the mid 90's both in the main service and Sunday school.

Back during the radical phase of the Reformation, Anabaptists made the shocking declaration that infant baptism was illicit, since babies were too young to make a conscious decision about the matter. This was shocking because being baptized was not just a religious ceremony, but denoted membership in the political and moral community (baptismal records were used as de facto birth certificates, for example). The only unbaptized people in Reformation era Europe would have been the Jews, whom most Christians considered to be fringe as it was. Since the Catholic church and the Reformers taught that unbaptized babies went to Hell, teaching that infant baptism was itself wrong was considered to be doing damage not just to children but the very foundation of society. However, the Reformation Anabaptists believed that something as serious as baptism should not just be a routine ceremony that everyone does by virtue of living in Christendom, but something that a mature, rational believer should engage in with the intention of becoming a committed follower of Jesus.

This made a lot of sense when I first read about the Anabaptist philosophy, but it seems like many people who grow up in environments that practice non-infant baptism still get "saved" or baptized as children or teenagers because that's what's expected of them (here I'm thinking about mainstream Southern Baptists and the like) or because if they don't get baptized they won't be allowed to stay with their families (here I'm thinking of Amish and Mennonite communities that only allow baptized adults in their communities). In practice, it's no different than infant baptism, where people get their babies baptized because that's what the community expects of them. For example, I remember reading on the Bates family website about one of the younger boys getting "saved" at seven or eight. If this boy hadn't grown up in a family that stressed the importance of "getting saved" 24/7, I doubt that the idea would have come to him. Gil and Kelly Bates expect that their children will "get saved" and would probably get worried if one of their brood had failed to do so before becoming an adult.