Godless Heathens FTW!

[happy atheist]

Turns out that you don't need religion to be a good person. I've always known that, but it's nice to have some science to back it up.

From Jezebel:

In an op-ed at the Los Angeles Times by sociologist Phil Zuckerman, you can read about a swath of studies that support what everyone who is "between churches" has known forever: Not believing in God isn't synonymous with being amoral. If anything, it can give you a greater clarity about right and wrong, because you're more likely to base it on empathy and decency than a guaranteed spot upstairs come Judgment Day.

http://jezebel.com/godless-parents-are- ... 1682844001

Here's the LA Times piece she references:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

The results of such secular child-rearing are encouraging. Studies have found that secular teenagers are far less likely to care what the “cool kids” think, or express a need to fit in with them, than their religious peers. When these teens mature into “godless” adults, they exhibit less racism than their religious counterparts, according to a 2010 Duke University study. Many psychological studies show that secular grownups tend to be less vengeful, less nationalistic, less militaristic, less authoritarian and more tolerant, on average, than religious adults.

Recent research also has shown that children raised without religion tend to remain irreligious as they grow older — and are perhaps more accepting. Secular adults are more likely to understand and accept the science concerning global warming, and to support women's equality and gay rights. One telling fact from the criminology field: Atheists were almost absent from our prison population as of the late 1990s, comprising less than half of 1% of those behind bars, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics. This echoes what the criminology field has documented for more than a century — the unaffiliated and the nonreligious engage in far fewer crimes.

[eri]

Cue the onslaught of defensive religious FJers claiming "People of faith are good people too!!!" as if it needs to even be said.

[formergothardite]

I know that this doesn't apply to all Christians, but the evangelical Christianity I was raised with did make it hard to have true love, compassion and tolerance. My oldest daughter came home last week and was talking about a new girl in her class who she liked and who is Jewish. If that had been me at that age, I would have had to immediately added her to my prayer list and prayed every night that she would get saved and not go to hell. I would have been made to feel like I couldn't just be her friend, I had to try and "save" her. When you grow up believing everyone who isn't just like you is going to be tortured for all of eternity and that this action is done by an all loving God, it does fuck up your perception of love. The "loving" God I was raised with was jealous and vengeful and we were all such awful creatures that we should be grateful that he didn't torture us all and gave us a narrow way to escape hell. If a person believes that is love, of course it is going to be harder for them to have empathy for people who aren't like them because they have a warped view of love.

[bionicmlle]

Cue the onslaught of defensive religious FJers claiming "People of faith are good people too!!!" as if it needs to even be said.

Huh?

[memabelle]

There is something to be said about being good and kind out of empathy and compassion and not just because it's going to get you into heaven. In my years deep within Catholicism I saw many good and kind people of religion and faith, but I saw a lot of judgment and down-right mean-spiritedness as well. And guess what? You can find both on the outside of religion as well, which I guess just goes to show that maybe being religious and being a good person don't necessarily go hand in hand. I used to be religious and I'd like to believe I was a good person. Now I'm not religious at all, but I still like to think I'm a good person.

[whoviana]

I value good deeds that root in human kindness more than deeds that root in fear of a deity or eternal damnation.

[txmommyof4]

This warms my little atheist heart. I lost my best friend of 32 years (yes, a lifetime) because she converted and said she we tired of casting her pearls before the swine. :roll: My children have had several people over the years refuse to let their children be friends with them once they found out we are atheists.

[whoviana]

I cut ties with a former bestie after she started posting crap about non-christians, unsaved people that are hellbound, creationism and how everything else but creationism was "against God" whatever the heck it means, and that she's praying for those haven't found Christ, her lord and savior, but she doesn't want them in her life. I don't know what happened to her, I knew she used to go to church and stuff, pray and stuff but never did she spew so much crap on people IRL. So I decided to enjoyed being covered in mud with my snout sticking out, happy and fluffy, oinking and try to enjoy life without having the grace and honor of being her friend.

[whoviana]

f casting her pearls before the swine.

OINK!

[feministxtian]

I am a Christian. I attempt to live my life according to a certain passage of scripture. HOWEVER, it doesn't seem to be a popular passage among "Christians". I can't handle the other bullshit rules (i.e. Lori).

FTR: Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage that, if I was some sort of weird-ass fundie, would be my "life-verse". (I never understood that shit)

ETA: I keep getting "suspended" off a certain Christian message board because I call the "fundies" out on their lack of Christianity, and even managed to get blocked off a chat site!

[whoviana]

I am not a Christian (although I believe that there has to be a God that created this Universe although I'm not sure so I'm an agnostic), but I love this one. This is what most "godly" christians do not get. The importance of LOVE. I think this pass should be the very essence of the Bible, that Christianity should revolve around this idea.

1 Corinthians, chapter 13

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As someone who has a tendency of holding grudges and has to deal with anger issues from time to time, I find refuge in this particular pass.

[eri]

Huh?

Dude, several people in this thread have already proved my point.

[browncoatslytherin]

Dude, several people in this thread have already proved my point.

one current christian posting = onslaught. which also equals "several people", too.

gotcha.

for real, though, i never in my life felt more judged or inadequate when i was deep in christianity. i still occasionally have those "off" feelings, but i know i have real friends to help me through, not people that will potentially just turn on me and say they'll pray for me but really do nothing to actually support or help me.

[happy atheist]

I found it really interesting that atheist kids care less about what's cool, and what the "popular" kids are doing. It's certainly true of my sons. They couldn't really care less.

[formergothardite]

I found it really interesting that atheist kids care less about what's cool, and what the "popular" kids are doing. It's certainly true of my sons. They couldn't really care less.

I don't know how it is going to be in the teen years, but my oldest daughter is reaching the pre-teen point and she doesn't really care either. I wonder why, though. What is it about growing up godless that makes kids less likely to care about what is popular?

[happy atheist]

I don't know how it is going to be in the teen years, but my oldest daughter is reaching the pre-teen point and she doesn't really care either. I wonder why, though. What is it about growing up godless that makes kids less likely to care about what is popular?

Maybe they don't care so much what others think because they aren't always trying to please god and the people at church? I've never been a member of a church, but I gather that there's a lot of pressure to conform, and everyone is up in your business all the time, and there's tons of judgment.* So if kids aren't raised in that environment they don't place as much weight on the opinions of others. Maybe?

*Yes, I know that there are churches with nice people in them.

[txmommyof4]

I found it really interesting that atheist kids care less about what's cool, and what the "popular" kids are doing. It's certainly true of my sons. They couldn't really care less.

Same with my boys. They are also quick to rally around another kid if they are being picked on. I know the mean kids aren't showing good Christian values (gotta get that disclaimer in there) but they sure are the ones being raised in Christian families.

[browncoatslytherin]

Maybe they don't care so much what others think because they aren't always trying to please god and the people at church? I've never been a member of a church, but I gather that there's a lot of pressure to conform, and everyone is up in your business all the time, and there's tons of judgment.* So if kids aren't raised in that environment they don't place as much weight on the opinions of others. Maybe?

*Yes, I know that there are churches with nice people in them.

i would second this. in the various churches i was in, there was an undercurrent of trying to be the best christian evar . anyone who didn't quite measure up was obviously having some spiritual struggles, had a weak faith, or other some such demeaning reason. of course, all one could do was pray for them. offer genuine support? pfff, whatever.

so, i can see where this kind of attitude could easily cross over into other areas of life.

and, this may just be me, but when i mixed with non-fundie kids, i always felt separate from them, like even though i was in a group i was all alone. i just wanted to feel like i was a part of something, so for a time i put extra effort into pleasing others. after all, wouldn't it also be a great testimony if i could befriend someone who wasn't a christian/not as christian and persuade them into the lifestyle? that was just my personal experience, though, so i'm not sure if that in particular translates into other individuals.

edited for riffle.

[formergothardite]

There was a lot of pressure to conform in the churches I grew up in. Children are raised to believe that they are fundamentally wicked, that their natural instincts are wrong and that not even their body belongs to them. It seems like that would set a person up to ignore what they really want and go along with what most people tell them they should want.

[August]

I don't know how it is going to be in the teen years, but my oldest daughter is reaching the pre-teen point and she doesn't really care either. I wonder why, though. What is it about growing up godless that makes kids less likely to care about what is popular?

I don't know about others, but I'm trying to instil an internal sense of morality in my kids. I never ever use external authority or rule as a yardstick for what to do. There's always a reason. I think it's called situational utilitarianism? I also talk about the bystander effect, and how hard it can be to go against the herd. I see a lot of religious stuff as being very " because I sad so, that's why". Religion is built on blind acceptance of contradictory rules.

So then, as a teenager or adult instead of just accepting that we do xyz just because we do, I hope they'll be able to rationalise every situation and do what's right. We'll see - they're like that now, but we don't have full on hormones yet.

[August]

Sorry, this is a huuge C&P, but really makes the point about morality and religious or atheist people (yes, many religious people operate at a higher level of morality than their religion would like, because they're following their internal orality, not the religion.) But most good religious are at Stage 3, which is all about bowing to peer pressure.

KOHLBERG'S MORAL STAGES

Kolberg's theory specifies six stages of moral development, arranged in three levels.

Level I: Preconventional/Premoral

Moral values reside in external, quasi-physical events, or in bad acts. The child is responsive to rules and evaluative labels, but views them in terms of pleasant or unpleasant consequences of actions, or in terms of the physical power of those who impose the rules.

Stage 1: Obedience and punishment orientation

Egocentric deference to superior power or prestige, or a trouble-avoiding set.

Objective responsibility.

Stage 2: Naively egoistic orientation

Right action is that which is instrumental in satisfying the self's needs and occasionally others'.

Relativism of values to each actor's needs and perspectives.

Naive egalitarianism,orientation to exchange and reciprocity.

Level II: Conventional/Role Conformity

Moral values reside in performing the right role, in maintaining the conventional order and expectancies of others as a value in its own right.

Stage 3: Good-boy/good-girl orientation

Orientation to approval, to pleasing and helping others.

Conformity to stereotypical images of majority or natural role behavior.

Action is evaluated in terms of intentions.

Stage 4: Authority and social-order-maintaining orientation

Orientation to "doing duty" and to showing respect for authority and maintaining the given social order or its own sake.

Regard for earned expectations of others.

Differentiates actions out of a sense of obligation to rules from actions for generally "nice" or natural motives.

Level III: Postconventional/Self-Accepted Moral Principles

Morality is defined in terms of conformity to shared standards,rights, or duties apart from supporting authority. The standards conformed to are internal, and action-decisions are based on an inner process of thought and judgement concerning right and wrong.

Stage 5: Contractual/legalistic orientation

Norms of right and wrong are defined in terms of laws or institutionalized rules which seem to have a rational basis.

When conflict arises between individual needs and law or contract, though sympathetic to the former, the individual believes the latter must prevail because of its greater functional rationality for society, the majority will and welfare.

Stage 6: The morality of individual principles of conscience

Orientation not only toward existing social rules, but also toward the conscience as a directing agent, mutual trust and respect, and principles of moral choice involving logical universalities and consistency.

Action is controlled by internalized ideals that exert a pressure to act accordingly regardless of the reactions of others in the immediate environment.

If one acts otherwise, self-condemnation and guilt result.

[Maggie Mae]

Couldn't some of the "doesn't care about fitting in/what's cool" come from being raised by parents who are less likely to "fit in" in the first place? The parents who raise their kids without God are most likely first generation non-believers or second generation non-believers (in the States, at least openly). So there, they are more likely to be independent thinks just based on the environment, and possibly influenced by genetics as well.

I'm actually more surprised at the anti-authoritarian comment. On the surface, it makes sense, but it doesn't match with voting patterns. IMO, of course.

[whoviana]

I think there is a huge difference between general human kindness and people pleasing and people pleasers just simply suck up to whomsoever they perceive as dominant, and all this under peer pressure and out of fear of being mistreated, left out, etc, and they easily throw anyone under the bus who's perceived as "uncool" by their peers. This isn't what human kindness is all about.

[eri]

one current christian posting = onslaught. which also equals "several people", too.

gotcha.

for real, though, i never in my life felt more judged or inadequate when i was deep in christianity. i still occasionally have those "off" feelings, but i know i have real friends to help me through, not people that will potentially just turn on me and say they'll pray for me but really do nothing to actually support or help me.

Uh, yeah, just one . . .

[RosyDaisy]

One does not need religion to be compassionate or moral says this liberal evangelical Christian.