Bringing Up Bates

[marmalade]

Even if they filmed in September, the timing is really, really tight for two more miscarriages after a March D&C, if that's even physically possible. I guess all things are possible through our savior.

If Erin's reality TV storyline is three miscarriages, shouldn't she have mentioned the THREE miscarriages??? :wtf:

Reality shows play fast and loose with timelines to fit into their "script." I saw plenty of Instagram pics from the Bateses to indicate that filming went well into November, perhaps even early December. Erin could have gone to the doctor that recently; the talking head segments didn't indicate that they knew of Erin's condition, they looked crushed and close to tears several times. For all we know, her last miscarriage happened sometime in October! There is really no way to know this unless Erin tells us.

We know that Whitney's shower was at the end of September, and that was the first "script" presented, illustrating that just like the Duggars, timeframes are blatantly manipulated.

[rosaline]

I don't have much of a sense of Alyssa's personality yet, beyond the belief that she's clearly happy to not be living with so many people. I did find it odd that she told her in-laws and friends about her pregnancy weeks before she told her family, but then I realized that concern for Erin might have had a lot to do with it.

I think that it was because Alyssa wanted to share the news in person, even if she had to keep it a secret for weeks. I did that with my engagement; it was so much more fun to tell people in person than over the phone.

IMO, maybe it was a little weird to tell her friends first, but not her in-laws, given that they are John's family and would be just as excited as the Bates family to hear the news. Someone's family is always going to be told first unless you sit them down together.

[Mama Mia]

I think people are also forgetting that in these scenes where Alyssa is looking reserved or overwhelmed or less that thrilled -- she was also suffering from pretty severe morning sickness. Even with medication and even drawing near the end of it -- not likely to be your most bubbly when you're constantly queasy.

Not that I mind her being less smiley cheerful as the rest. Everyone is different.

I think the 2 other miscarriages could easily have been after March - say one in June and one in August. But after watching the second episode I really didn't see any indication that March was the first one. Whenever they were, I'm glad the Doctor found something that sounds like it might be quickly remedied.

[RosyDaisy]

Kelly and Gil said that purity was still maintained so it did not bother them. But I am assuming that Zach and Whitney felt the need to ask forgiveness because they originally intended to wait until the wedding to kiss. If they had decided ahead of time that they felt kissing was alright for them I am assuming they would not have felt the need to ask forgiveness. And we saw more of Alyssa and John. She got her ears pierced after she married which is something the rest of the family doesn't. Apparently they are all a little more rebellious then we initially thought.

Well Kelly was more or less advertising that Zach was available from the time his courtship with Sarah Rieth was called off until he got engaged to Whitney.

Anyway, we are seeing cracks in the fundie facade. I'm willing to bet it was more than just kissing going on. If so, good for them. I'm beginning to believe the modesty thing is for the cameras only.

[treemom]

Maybe you're right. But by the same token Kelly Jo isn't robo-calling people and filling their heads with lies while preaching hate. And the kids seem to be making their way in world by doing things that interest them, as opposed to what daddy gives them (car dealership) or tells them to do. Say what you will about Erin and college, but the fact remains that she went and she graduated, which is a hell of a lot more than what any of the Duggars have done (extra points for not forcing one of their other daughters to also get a degree from the same school because Erin needed a chaperona a la Jana and her "doula" career). Unlike the Duggars, we've never seen Kelly really teach her kids, but the fact that the older ones are doing SOMETHING leads me to believe that they may not be as uneducated as the Duggars.

As for Gil and Gothard. That does bother me. But I've spent my entire career working with non-profit boards as a staff member and as a volunteer. You have NO idea what information he's being presented with, how decisions are being made and how he's voting. I am not absolving Gil of responsibility, but I am not willing to condemn the ENTIRE Bates family either.

They did participate in getting an anti-choice, anti-medical privacy amendment passed here in TN. And she lied about it on her blog.

[treemom]

A quick google search shows that there are many forums of women discussing pregnancy after a D&C, some before their first cycle post procedure. The 3 month period seems to be the high end of what doctors recommend, others apparently say it's okay to try right away. Just one of the many sites where people discuss their personal experiences (although, I guess they could all be liars, too):

pregnancy-info.net/forums/pregnancy_loss_miscarriage/conceiving_after_d_amp_c/

Chad and Erin are trying to get pregnant, they probably were not using any birth control after the procedure (in line with their beliefs). She's likely taking pregnancy tests every month. I find her having 3 miscarriages wholly believable. I'm sure the one that was announced/documented/requiring a D&C is much more prevalent than the other two lost fetuses, so may be discussed separately in some situations. Also, she did mention three in the second episode of BUB (just watched it last night).

I don't see what's unbelievable about this (or what's unbelievable about W&Z kissing, for that matter -- I'd find it more suspicious if they said they waited.)

I was told to wait one cycle after my d&c

[Denim Jumper]

It's funny because, even after 20 years in NY, I've never dropped my New England accent... except when I get mad! My kids know they're in from it when I start sounding like someone from Mob Wives.

Even if I'm speaking "standard" English, my accent will sneak in...the way I say certain words...it's just the way it is for me. But, I do make the effort to turn it WAY down. In reality, I suffer from "confused accents". I spent my childhood in Philadelphia...then moved to VA when I was about 9 or so...I'm mostly southern but occasionally a northern pronunciation will slip in. My kids know when I'm REALLY pissed though, my southern accent gets VERY thick...

[Fundie Bunny]

Just a question, are we sure that the march miscarriage was actually in march? I think it could have happened earlier, let's say, early february, and they just chose to grieve in private for a few weeks.

[justmy2cents]

Just a question, are we sure that the march miscarriage was actually in march? I think it could have happened earlier, let's say, early february, and they just chose to grieve in private for a few weeks.

Based on Erin's due date of mid October she most likely did have the D&C in late Feb/early March when she was aroundr 8 weeks along. Still, you only need to wait out 1 cycle so it's conceivable that she could have gotten pregnant 2 more times by September. Besides, Kelly said Erin had miscarriages but one or both after the initial one could have been chemical pregnancies in which case they wouldn't have to wait at all and could start trying right away. Hope her next one sticks.

[melon]

Well, I like the Bateses.

I hope Erin will carry a baby to term.

Love,Michael,Michaella!Love how she admitted she hugs everyone and wouldn't hug Brandon any different!No side hugs!!

I don't understand it,but I like how Zach admitted that he and Whitney kissed before they got married.He's human.

I don't intend to come off as smug.

But is it just me or do the Duggars seem to act like" I always do what's right.I never do anything wrong".??

That's why I enjoy the Bates.They seem able to admit wrong(if they have done wrong).

Remember when Jill and her whole family met Derick at the airport.Jill was so excited and she hugged him full frontal??My husband said one of them said have laid a lip-lock on the other.Lol

[Justme]

Can someone give the Cliff Notes version of Erin's problem? She can get pregnant, but a clotting disorder prevents her from maintaining it. Does medicine help? As soon as she's pregnant, can she see the doctor for medicine? Will it effect all her pregnancies or could she carry on her own? Does it effect the rest of her health? Could she bleed more easily than the average person in the event of injury or surgery? Even with medical help, will she be lucky to have just a few children or can she have a supersize family if she wants?

[princessmahina]

I noticed this too. Most guys could probably handle it if their girlfriend told a little white lie and then surprised him w/a visit. But she mentioned twice that she didn't want to be deceitful. I just thought it was a weird. And they sure love themselves some tight front hugging!

This weirded me out big time. He seems like a stickler for the rules. Given his demeanor on this (small) issue, I don't think we'll be hearing about those two kissing before their wedding day.

[Belugaloo]

This weirded me out big time. He seems like a stickler for the rules. Given his demeanor on this (small) issue, I don't think we'll be hearing about those two kissing before their wedding day.

Can someone explained what happened? I still haven't seen the episode.... erggg!!!

[freehannie]

Basically what happened was that when Michaela surprised Brandon, he said she was a good liar (and not in a fun, teasing kind of way). She pointed out that she hadn't actually lied and had been very careful to avoid doing so. He then said something about her saying something about not seeing him for his birthday this year. She clarified that all she had said was that she would see him next year.

[Belugaloo]

Basically what happened was that when Michaela surprised Brandon, he said she was a good liar (and not in a fun, teasing kind of way). She pointed out that she hadn't actually lied and had been very careful to avoid doing so. He then said something about her saying something about not seeing him for his birthday this year. She clarified that all she had said was that she would see him next year.

Interesting... So since I have only FJ to relay this scene over to me, I have a question... When he made the "good liar" comment, was his tone/facial expression sort of "worried", like "oh crap my future wife is a good liar", or did he just seem upset?

[princessmahina]

Interesting... So since I have only FJ to relay this scene over to me, I have a question... When he made the "good liar" comment, was his tone/facial expression sort of "worried", like "oh crap my future wife is a good liar", or did he just seem upset?

He looked really irritated to me. Like, if there hadn't been an audience/camera crews, he would have really scolded her for it. He looked more irked than pleased to see her.

[Belugaloo]

He looked really irritated to me. Like, if there hadn't been an audience/camera crews, he would have really scolded her for it. He looked more irked than pleased to see her.

How interesting... And unfortunate. I hope it was just a bad situation rather than a glimpse of how he is all the time... All the married Bates children have seemed to make out well with the partner they chose. I would hate for Michael to be the exception and end up in an unhappy marriage**!

[Ursula]

Around 50% of marriages eventually end in divorce. Statistically, 50% of the Bateses (and Duggars, and all other fundie families, etc.) will end up in unhappy marriages. But there will be no divorce, ever. Well, maybe not ever, but definitely not while these families are still well in the public eye. The Duggars probably always will be to an extent and depending on how well this show does, as well as the Bateses connections to the Duggars, they probably will always be a more well known fundie family as well. Even if one of their daughters (or sons!) ends up in a horrible marriage, unless it involved domestic violence, they're STUCK (and I'm not entirely sure even domestic violence would be an acceptable reasons for divorce in some of these families).

With regards to Girl Michael and Brandon, I haven't seen the episode yet so I can't offer an opinion on their interaction after Girl Michael's little white lie. Based on descriptions here it could either be a HUGE red flag or nothing at all. Brandon is completely new to TV exposure, he could have been flustered from the genuine surprise, and we should also remember that he wasn't even supposed to have a girlfriend at all while still attending his Clown College of Got-Hard. Obviously his relationship with Girl Michael wasn't a secret or anything but I would assume one of the reasons Got-Hard forbids relationships during "schooling" is because it's a distraction and having her there in person is a much greater distraction than them just Skyping on the weekends. Maybe he thought he would get in trouble by her showing up, who knows.

OR he could be a sadistic controlling psychopath who will make Girl Michael's life a living hell once he puts a ring on it. But, if that happens (and I hope it doesn't), we will never know because only their happiest of faces will be put on public display :(

[nelliebelle1197]

I am watching right now and I didn't think Brandon was all up in arms - you couldn't see his face when he said the liar phrase. I would be the first or second to jump on these people but I just didn't get any menace or judgement. Seemed like he was more shocked and embarrassed than anything. Sadly, Brandon is a Pecan-level dork, though. His speech and mannerisms instantly screamed massive nerd getting shoved into a locker after 3 period to me.

College pics of Kelly- she was likely more lovely then than her girls are now. Looks like multiple babies and Dress Barn fashions are not doing her any favors.

Alyssa is definitely a major victim of Resting Bitch Face. And bizarre eyebrows. But According to John, God always comes first for them. Always.

This is Erin's clotting disorder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasminoge ... nhibitor-1

And this is the other

http://www.atlanta-mfm.com/Thrombophili ... ng-Factors

[Rachel333]

Around 50% of marriages eventually end in divorce. Statistically, 50% of the Bateses (and Duggars, and all other fundie families, etc.) will end up in unhappy marriages.

It's not quite that grim! It's actually never been that high for married people. This explains why the statistics are misleading, and it's also important to remember that divorce rates are inflated by people with multiple divorces. They might have 3 marriages ending in divorce, compared to a couple that stays married only having 1 successful marriage, so the statistics look worse than it really is.

It has also been decreasing a lot in recent years. Divorce is common, yes, but most people who get married will never get divorced.

[Ursula]

Thanks! Those were great reads and I'm happy to learn that 50% stat is just an urban legend of sorts. I mean, it's depressingly high if it were true.

Still though, both those links basically state a third of all marriages will end eventually and 33% is still six Bates/Duggar kids ending up unhappily married and stuck. But like I said, we'll likely never know when that does happen.

[colors_outside15]

I'm confused, you just defended her and her actions, but then you totally back tracked and called her a stuck up, uneducated, inexperienced teenager for feeling how you'd feel in her situation... So, do you see yourself as a stuck up, uneducated, inexperienced teenager? If not, then why are you so quick to attack her?

Personally, I think that Alyssa, whether she wanted to escape or not, found herself in a much calmer, quieter environment and enjoyed it. But then she found herself swarmed by people who haven't had that luxury and who don't know anything but the chaos of having 19 kids between 2 parents, and it's just overwhelming. I can't say if she thinks herself better than the rest of her family or not, but I find her reactions to be more "oh my god I can't deal with this much stimulation at once anymore" and maybe a bit of an emotional/mental claustrophobia type deal.

Not to mention, if Kelly's statement about the rules existing for the house means that the married children must revert to the rules they were subjected to when they were unmarried, I could also understand why Alyssa wouldn't be thrilled to be around her family. Here she is defining herself without "guidance" from her parents, but she has to leave herself behind when she goes home for a visit? That would be infuriating.

Also, just because you came from some place doesn't mean you have to always be in that place or conform to the ideals you had/were forced to have while you were there. And, redefining yourself doesn't mean you forgot your roots, it just means that you are more than your roots.

Oh my goodness gracious ... yes to the bolded. When I went "home" (no - it's no longer home for me) for what is now the last time, I literally felt like I couldn't breathe. I know that sounds ridiculous because I grew up in a large family, but then I escaped/left. Being back in was stifling and loud just so.freaking.loud. When I watched that happen to Alyssa on youtube, I had to plug my ears. Yes, I've had roommates, and had them when I went "home". But roommates, when you can shut your door, is entirely different than being the center of attention, just came home, what is your news that fits our agenda, we're all going to scream at you for various happy and angry reasons is more overwhelming than I could ever possibly describe. You cannot close doors, you cannot have privacy, and you cannot be you.

I remember so clearly wanting one night to do something that seemed simple - watch a meteor shower while on the phone with friends from where I was currently living (aka not at "home"). It turned into a power struggle and an insistence that females are not "safe" outside the house (in the backyard!!!) when it's dark. I was dragged inside and told I could "feel" the (fill in the blank unrelated to science that a meteor shower actually is :angry-banghead: ) presence and be grateful for that inside the house. Yup. Grateful.

It's far easier to live as a dog on a leash than to live with the leash, find life without a leash, only to then have a rough collar and short leash quite honestly and literally forced around your neck again.

Team GO ALYSSA!

[colors_outside15]

All I could think while watching this episode is "what do they do all freaking day". Both girls admitted to being bored. I totally understand them being committed to staying home once they have babies, but in the meantime, volunteer maybe? Something! A healthy 20 something young woman should never be bored all day.

I find that to be selfish and lazy to not contribute in some way, hidden under some bullcrap Jesus wants me home ideal.

I mostly agree with you, but isn't your 20s kinda all about figuring life out for yourself and deciding who you're going to be? I'm sure they're bored to some degree, but that's what leads to finding hobbies, which they weren't allowed to do growing up beyond playing the piano. It takes time to gather the courage to leave alone, unchaperoned, and find out what you like. When you are taught that the world is scary and evil from the time you are born, you believe it. But then again, it's entirely possible that both young women are beginning to question how they were raised, which they cannot say on television. Erin's miscarriages and Alyssa's love of freedom/less noise are not really "allowed". Yes, Erin has a medical condition, but that might not cut it for her family. And Alyssa wearing pants and wanting a smaller family (which may or may not happen) also not really "allowed". So perhaps, they are questioning those views that they are so entrenched in while realizing it's not working perfectly for them and if that's true ... what does that mean?

When I was spending a lot of time trying to figure out my head and my life and what to make of my upbringing and who I wanted to be and what I could contribute based on the "experiences" I had within the confines of a rigid (to put it kindly) household ... I told people I was bored. Was I bored? Well, I had a lot less work to do because I wasn't raising my childsiblings, but I also had really hard work to do in examining my life and figuring a way forward and if not forward, a way backward into the fold.

The bottom line is that boredom, although it seems to be simple, means something different to everyone. Erin and Alyssa might very well be bored - it seems plausible to say definitely partially bored - in the traditional sense. However, boredom could very well also include thinking that *isn't allowed* (e.g. it's hot, I want to wear shorts, I love my family, but they would be against this thought/decision. What would wearing shorts do to my relationships within my family? Are shorts worth those consequences? Am I someone who wears shorts and if so, do I want to be that person?). How do you sum that up for a religious family tv show? You have more free time than you're used to so you're bored. You can't say the foundation for your beliefs is cracking in certain ways and you don't even know what you do or don't like or what emotions you feel or don't feel. It's late and this might well not make sense (I'll lave editing until I'm awake in the morning), but admitting to being bored is a lot easier than admitting you're having doubts and developing interests that don't fit into the family brand and tv show angle.

[Peas n carrots]

Poor Erin. I hope she isn't going to put her body through multiple pregnancies. It sounds as if her body isn't receptive to carrying many pregnancies to term. I hope her and Chad are able to have one or two and call it done - it seems dangerous to try to have more than that with her condition.

[kbohn23]

Just watched the second episode. I am glad to see that the kids are allowed to branch out from the house rules a bit once married, even if it is just watching TV and getting their ears pierced. I was also happy to see Kelly and Gil say that their rules are for their house...pretty typical parents "under our roof you'll do as we say". They may not like it if the kids decide to do differently once they're married but at least they are stating the possibility of change vs. the Duggars who seem to think their kids will follow all of their rules till the end of time.

Just my opinion, but the Bates do seem much more down to earth/realistic than the Duggars. And so much more likeable!!!!!