Why do these women need to be "rescued" by men to be happy?

[luv2laugh]

I have a question. Why do some of you insist that the adults (specifically Jana Duggar and Sarah Maxwell) NEED to be rescued by men in order to be happy? Whether most want to accept it or not, Jana Duggar (24 years old) and Sarah Maxwell(30 something) ARE adult women living in America. Jana Duggar,24, is far less isolated than Sarah Maxwell and Jana has regular contact with Amy. If Jana was so unhappy and really wanted to leave, she would. It also is bothersome that some people here insist that these adult women NEED to be rescued by men marrying them. I think it is very ironic that FreeJinger is against what some, claim are backward ideals of the Duggars that pose a threat to feminism yet insist that the only way these adult women can escape is by having men marry them. Isn't that the same backwards thinking that some of you are so against? Look at Jana Duggar. Some of you insist the only way that she can leave is by having a man marry her. This has gone to the extent of people starting a huge false rumor, "Tim Tebow and Jana are courting! Now she will finally be able to escape!" http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-new ... ys-2014612 . These rumors are harmful to Jana and I wish they would stop.

[singsingsing]

Because for most of them, getting married and getting to move out and start their own household is basically their only opportunity to gain any semblance of independence. Their only other option is to remain at home with the status of children. Their only permitted sexual outlet is through marriage. Their only permitted method of leaving the family household and getting to make some choices for themselves is through marriage. The only way they will ever be perceived as true adults is through marriage and childbearing. I think some people also hope that they will get married, get out on their own away from the constant pressures of the family home, and start to rethink things.

It sucks. I don't like it. But I think that's why people hope for it.

[luv2laugh]

Because for most of them, getting married and getting to move out and start their own household is basically their only opportunity to gain any semblance of independence. Their only other option is to remain at home with the status of children. Their only permitted sexual outlet is through marriage. Their only permitted method of leaving the family household and getting to make some choices for themselves is through marriage. The only way they will ever be perceived as true adults is through marriage and childbearing. I think some people also hope that they will get married, get out on their own away from the constant pressures of the family home, and start to rethink things.

It sucks. I don't like it. But I think that's why people hope for it.

Amy does not share their beliefs, however, the Duggars still love her. Jana sees Amy on a regular basis and could easily leave if she wanted to make that decision. It would be much harder for Sarah Maxwell to do so because she doesn't have anyone in her family like Amy. However, they are both adult women in America and can still make a hard decision if they wanted to. This is not like they are being enslaved in a third world country.

[Kira]

They are women who have no real education or job skills. Many would say these women have been emotionally abused. Leaving is not as simple and easy as you think it is. Women who have left fundamentalism would tell you it's not so easy.

[luv2laugh]

They are women who have no real education or job skills. Many would say these women have been emotionally abused. Leaving is not as simple and easy as you think. Women who have left fundamentalism would tell you it's not so easy.

It would be hard but it can be done if they wanted to. Many women in third world countries are physically abused and enslaved. Those women cannot leave even if they desired so. It is just disturbing that many people feel these adult women need to be rescued by men to leave when in fact, it is very likely that Jana does not want to leave. The false Tim Tebow and Jana Duggar rumor is insane and those rumors are really harmful to Jana.

[Kira]

It would be hard but it can be done if they wanted to. Many women in third world countries are physically abused and enslaved. Those women cannot leave even if they desired so. It is just disturbing that many people feel these adult women need to be rescued by men to leave when in fact, it is very likely that Jana does not want to leave. The false Tim Tebow and Jana Duggar rumor is insane and those rumors are really harmful to Jana.

NO ONE AT FREE JINGER THINKS THESE WOMEN NEED TO BE RESUED BY MEN. WE KNOW THAT MARRIAGE IS ONE OF THE FEW WAYS THEY HAVE OUT OF FUNDAMENTALISM. Why are you mentioning the third world? This is not a competion between abused women.

This rumor is not harmful to Jana. "Women Parents want her to Marry Handsome Quarterback" :roll: The person who posted it on FJ was joking. It is the media fault that this rumor made the news. Maybe Jana does want to stay or she could be staying because her parents have said that the kids will move out when they are married.

[BlackSheep]

I don't believe that a woman needs to be rescued by a man in order to be happy.

What do the Duggar daughters believe? That God designed each of them to be a wife and mother.

Until that happens, they stay at home, remain under their father's authority, and raise their siblings. If that scenario becomes undesirable to one of them, that's going against God's plan. And you have to keep sweet and keep smiling.

But what if deep down they don't like that situation? Their only other choice is to marry. Which means that a man will essentially "rescue" them from the situation that they don't like. They get to graduate to Wife and Mother, and raise their own children. When they reach that stage, hopefully they like it, because there's nowhere else to go from there. :roll:

[txmommyof4]

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that these are grown women. They are all just little girls in women's bodies. No adult I know would ask for parental permission to text someone. Thinking they could just leave is just as reasonable as thinking a miserable 13 y/o could just walk away.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think the way most people see it, is that the most likely way a fundie girl can escape from under her dickhead father's authority is by marrying a nice guy and going fundie lite. Loads more do that than run away, and it also means they don't just break off and lose their entire family.

Also, especially with Sarah, there is no way she is getting out without help, her soul has been completely and utterly crushed to dust and she has been so badly sheltered that there is no way she could ever make it in the world unless there was someone by her side to show her how things work. Even a regular fundie family would confuse her, cause even they are friends with other ATI families, go to Journey to the Heart and have fun.

Jana has more of a chance of escaping on her own, as she has normal relatives and is allowed to mix with other people, even if those people are fundies. She has also seen more of the world, even though it is from a biased point of view, but theres a lot of brainwashing to overcome.

[VelociRapture]

I have a question. Why do some of you insist that the adult girls (specifically Jana Duggar and Sarah Maxwell) NEED to be rescued by men in order to be happy? Whether most want to accept it or not, Jana Duggar (24 years old) and Sarah Maxwell(30 something) ARE adult women living in America. Jana Duggar,24, is far less isolated than Sarah Maxwell and Jana has regular contact with Amy. If Jana was so unhappy and really wanted to leave, she would. It also is bothersome that some people here insist that these adult women NEED to be rescued by men marrying them. I think it is very ironic that FreeJinger is against what some, claim are backward ideals of the Duggars that pose a threat to feminism yet insist that the only way these adult women can escape is by having men marry them. Isn't that the same backwards thinking that some of you are so against? Look at Jana Duggar. Some of you insist the only way that she can leave is by having a man marry her. This has gone to the extent of people starting a huge false rumor, "Tim Tebow and Jana are courting! Now she will finally be able to escape!" http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-new ... ys-2014612 . These rumors are harmful to Jana and I wish they would stop.

I agree that no normal American woman needs to be rescued - but these aren't "normal" American women that we are talking about. These are women who have been isolated and denied proper educations their entire lives. They are taught that questioning the beliefs they have been taught - including the belief that women are subservient to men - is a horrible sin against God. That kind of brainwashing takes an extremely long time to overcome and can only happen with a great deal of effort, something the Duggar girls (and some other women in their situation) have a severe lack of because they are constantly raising their younger siblings and running a household. . . and when they do find themselves questioning something they smother those thoughts because it isn't Godly behavior.

Could some of the Duggar girls, like Jana, turn to Amy for help? Yeah, they could. Doing so would cause them to lose their entire immediate family though and could result in Amy losing her relationship with them as well. That might be a sacrifice some people are willing to make, but when all your closest friends are your siblings it can be an extremely difficult choice to make. You aren't just gaining your freedom - you are losing your entire family, your friends, and everything you have ever known. Add in the fact that these girls have no adequate educations, which would make finding a job difficult and getting into college tough, and the fact that they may not have access to money. . . well, that makes it extremely difficult.

The only acceptable way for these girls to leave their father's home in their culture is to get married. Is it impossible for them to escape in a way other than through marriage? Yes, but with all the additional factors to consider it is extremely difficult. It's also very possible that these girls aren't that upset over their circumstances and don't mind the way they have been raised.

I'll say that, personally, the only thing I hope for these girls is that they are happy and healthy. If they find that through marriage, great. If they find that by being home with their family, awesome. And if they find that by striking out on their own one day, then I completely support that as well. So long as they are happy and healthy that is all that counts.

[RosyDaisy]

And there's the very real possibility that the "rescuer" is more abusive and controlling than the woman's father. At the same time, these ladies do have some marketable skill (nanny, housekeeper, hostess, waitress, nurse's aide, etc). The problem lies in having someone to help them so they can save enough to take care of themselves.

[Rescinded and Mended]

And if anyone needs a better example of how deeply embedded the brainwashing is, just have a look at Jill. When Jill was very young, Michelle handed Joyanna, James, and Jennifer over to her to raise. She has "jokingly" referred to Joyanna as her baby doll. She is seen with them CONSTANTLY, even after her marriage to Derick.

Does anyone think here that Jill would honestly tell Jim Bob and Michelle to flake off, that she and Derick would be willing to leave fundamentalism in exchange for their freedom and total autonomy over their own lives? Jill would lose access to the three children that she didn't give birth to, but raised as her own! That's an extremely high price to pay for the luxury of walking away.

[DGayle]

Amy does not share their beliefs, however, the Duggars still love her. Jana sees Amy on a regular basis and could easily leave if she wanted to make that decision. It would be much harder for Sarah Maxwell to do so because she doesn't have anyone in her family like Amy. However, they are both adult women in America and can still make a hard decision if they wanted to. This is not like they are being enslaved in a third world country.

How could Jana support herself with a jr high education, at best, and no marketable job skills? She can't leave as easy as you think.

[DGayle]

It would be hard but it can be done if they wanted to. Many women in third world countries are physically abused and enslaved. Those women cannot leave even if they desired so. It is just disturbing that many people feel these adult women need to be rescued by men to leave when in fact, it is very likely that Jana does not want to leave. The false Tim Tebow and Jana Duggar rumor is insane and those rumors are really harmful to Jana.

The women who do that go live in hovels. It's not like they're escaping, and going on to live nice, comfortable lives. They're escaping hell to go to a different kind of hell on the run.

[alba]

Amy does not share their beliefs, however, the Duggars still love her. Jana sees Amy on a regular basis and could easily leave if she wanted to make that decision. It would be much harder for Sarah Maxwell to do so because she doesn't have anyone in her family like Amy. However, they are both adult women in America and can still make a hard decision if they wanted to. This is not like they are being enslaved in a third world country.

Let me ask you a question. If a woman was being abused by her husband, and when her friends tried to encourage her to leave she insisted she loved him, would you say that she, too, could "easily leave if she wanted to"? Because make no mistake, Jana and Sarah are being abused by their parents. They've been so brainwashed that they might not even want to leave because they don't know that they're being used and stifled.

Yes, if Jana wanted to leave, all she'd have to do is go to her grandmother (who seems more likely than Amy to be able to help her get the training and experience needed to find a job and stand on her own two feet) and ask for help. To do that, though, she needs the opportunity to question what she's been taught and acknowledge that her parents do not hold the keys to salvation.

[MatthewDuggar]

How could Jana support herself with a jr high education, at best, and no marketable job skills? She can't leave as easy as you think.

There are plenty of jobs in the service and or manufacturing industries that she could get. While working something like that she cold go to school part time for whatever she wants. (she could quickly become a CNA, then nurse) She may have to live with distant family or a roommate, but it's not impossible. She doesn't need a 40,000 a year job to support herself and she's not some sort of bumbling idiot.

[calimojo]

The Duggars don't even teach their children to be on time for things, let alone show them the work-a-day ethic that is required for someone to have a real job.

Plus what I think OP fails to realize is that these girls have been taught since birth, that their path to salvation is through their father. He is God's right hand man, in that family and defy him is to risk being damned to hell.

It may sound silly and trivial to us, but to true believers it is frightening to risk being damned to hell and cut off from all those you love.

Jana and the others are more resourced than many fundie SAHD, because through the show they have traveled and met many non-fundies etc who could help them out. I imagine even members of the shows film crew etc would help her out if she came to them privately.

So she does have resources, experiences and has a broader world view because of the show, however, that doesn't change the fact that she has been taught that it is her duty to submit her heart and soul to her father and mother, until the time comes, that they decide it is appropriate for her to start courting. Then, the prospective courting gentleman has to be "ok'd" by JB and M, before anything can even happen.

I think we all hope that JB is as dim as we think he is, and a few "ringers" will get past him and at least some of the girls will marry men who are not a part of the cult. We want them to end up with a husband who will see them as an equal and will support their efforts to pursue their desires, to question their upbringing, etc.

I would even be supportive of a sham marriage that was just intended to fool JB and M long enough to help the girls escape. A "Trojan" horse of a courtship.

Obviously the whole Tim Tebow thing was never happening, but the part of that that I liked was not so much Tim himself, but if Jana had married him, by association, the other kids would have had the chance to meet other people outside of their normal circle of friends.

And Tim would be secure enough financially and maturity wise, hopefully, that he wouldn't kowtow to JB. He would afford his own home, and wouldn't have to be JB's little toilet cleaning bitch.

At this point, if Derick wants to move away from the QF style, all JB has to do is threaten to evict them, and cut off their TLC money, and Derick is back in line. Even with a decent job, I doubt he makes enough as the sole wage earner to support a stay at home mom and a bunch of kids.

I would like the kids, all of them, to find mates that will be true life partners with them, who will share the burdens of earning money, raising kids, and will support each other to pursue education and other interests. I want them to find mates who will raise some serious questions about the crazy teachings of ATI, Gothard, Phillips, etc.

[Sailing on Europa]

Also, especially with Sarah, there is no way she is getting out without help, her soul has been completely and utterly crushed to dust and she has been so badly sheltered that there is no way she could ever make it in the world unless there was someone by her side to show her how things work. Even a regular fundie family would confuse her, cause even they are friends with other ATI families, go to Journey to the Heart and have fun

Reading this made me realize how much Sarah might enjoy Journey to the Heart. Not that I would wish journey to the heart on anyone, but to her that would be more freedom than she is normally allowed. She might love it. It's so bizarre that she can't have friends - even super fundie ones.

[CorruptionInc.]

The Duggars don't even teach their children to be on time for things, let alone show them the work-a-day ethic that is required for someone to have a real job.

Plus what I think OP fails to realize is that these girls have been taught since birth, that their path to salvation is through their father. He is God's right hand man, in that family and defy him is to risk being damned to hell.

It may sound silly and trivial to us, but to true believers it is frightening to risk being damned to hell and cut off from all those you love.

Jana and the others are more resourced than many fundie SAHD, because through the show they have traveled and met many non-fundies etc who could help them out. I imagine even members of the shows film crew etc would help her out if she came to them privately.

So she does have resources, experiences and has a broader world view because of the show, however, that doesn't change the fact that she has been taught that it is her duty to submit her heart and soul to her father and mother, until the time comes, that they decide it is appropriate for her to start courting. Then, the prospective courting gentleman has to be "ok'd" by JB and M, before anything can even happen.

I think we all hope that JB is as dim as we think he is, and a few "ringers" will get past him and at least some of the girls will marry men who are not a part of the cult. We want them to end up with a husband who will see them as an equal and will support their efforts to pursue their desires, to question their upbringing, etc.

I would even be supportive of a sham marriage that was just intended to fool JB and M long enough to help the girls escape. A "Trojan" horse of a courtship.

Obviously the whole Tim Tebow thing was never happening, but the part of that that I liked was not so much Tim himself, but if Jana had married him, by association, the other kids would have had the chance to meet other people outside of their normal circle of friends.

And Tim would be secure enough financially and maturity wise, hopefully, that he wouldn't kowtow to JB. He would afford his own home, and wouldn't have to be JB's little toilet cleaning bitch.

At this point, if Derick wants to move away from the QF style, all JB has to do is threaten to evict them, and cut off their TLC money, and Derick is back in line. Even with a decent job, I doubt he makes enough as the sole wage earner to support a stay at home mom and a bunch of kids.

I don't think these girls would even imagine if life were different. Doing so is a sin.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Reading this made me realize how much Sarah might enjoy Journey to the Heart. Not that I would wish journey to the heart on anyone, but to her that would be more freedom than she is normally allowed. She might love it. It's so bizarre that she can't have friends - even super fundie ones.

Yeah, if she can get over missing her parents like the average small child on their first time staying away from home, I bet she would. I think she is too old now, I think there is an upper limit on these things, all the other girls we see on the group pictures are under 25.

Although it is hellish for the rebellious girls sent there as a punishment, I bet the really super fundie girls enjoy it, even if it is a strict, brainwashing camp, cause they get to meet other girls their age and be away from caring for their parents children.

[Four is Enough]

That Jana/ Tim Tebow thing was on my Comcast news feed this morning.

[DGayle]

There are plenty of jobs in the service and or manufacturing industries that she could get. While working something like that she cold go to school part time for whatever she wants. (she could quickly become a CNA, then nurse) She may have to live with distant family or a roommate, but it's not impossible. She doesn't need a 40,000 a year job to support herself and she's not some sort of bumbling idiot.

Say you're a boss. You have a position open at the entry level. A has a solid 5 years of work history and is working on night classes at the local community college. B has a bachelor's degree, and is struggling to find work to pay the loans. C has some sporadic history with work, but no red flags. D has nothing. No work, no college, no real high school. Are you telling me you'd pass up A, B, and C to take a chance on D? She would be a bas risk for someone who doesn't know her personally. Chances are a lot of us here know her better than a random employer getting an application from her.

She can't quickly become a CNA when her science education denies evolution exists, and is all bible. She needs to redo a lot of science classes to get to a senior-year level of science knowledge that would make becoming a CNA easier. She's so far behind that she's realistically years from being able to consider nursing school, if she even really wants to go into another caretaker job.

[FloraDoraDolly]

For anyone who wants to know what it's like for adult daughters to leave this type of environment, look at the Jeub girls. At least they have each other. But they lost contact with the younger siblings, plus there's still ongoing drama with their dad. I doubt Jim Bob or Stevehovah would let one of their kids go without multiple attempts to pull them back in. I also don't think Grandma or Amy would help Jana if she tried to escape. I mean, what exactly could Amy do? She's not exactly a paragon of stability. And Grandma would most likely try to smooth things over in order to preserve the family brand. Jana's best luck would be to try the relatives on Michelle's side of the family or sell her story for $$$$. The Keller kids who got away might also be willing to help.

Sarah has fewer options. She was much more sheltered than Jana and she claims that she liked not having any friends. I don't know what kind of a relationship, if any, that she may have with extended family. But she does have her Moody books, a tangible product she can show to prospective employers. Sarah should also have her own $$$ from those books, but would any of us be surprised if Steve has control over her bank accounts? Jana should also have $$$ from the TV show and from the book she wrote with her sisters. But again, does anyone here believe she has free access to that money?

[roddma]

What's Jana gonna do? escape in the family car with no money. no place to stay. I think the only ones who may lend a hand is Michelle's side, but they live in Ohio and I don't know how close Jana is to any of them. I don't have any fmaily that is Fundie and while I would try to help them, at the same time have concerns about causing a riff between the parents and me. As others on here say, it isnt easy in these situation. Comparing them to the third world countries is comparing apples and oranges IMO. No one thinks the oppression can happen in America. No one was actually saying they need a man to be rescued. If they are happy in their situation, then I am happy for them. You will never know their true feelings because like others say they have been raised to take one path in life and anything else is wrong..You cant go by a heavily edited reality tv show. I suggest the OP visit recoveringgrace.org and Hilary McFarland's blog QuiveringDaughters. You will see why it isnt easy for them to leave.

And since the Duggars put themselves on TV, it subjects them to all kinds of rumors and speculation. Most are no worse than spread about any other public figure.There's no reason to get your panties all in a knot over it when it's part of the package.

[Toothfairy]

The only other way to leave is get up pack whatever they have and walk out the door. But where would they go? They would be disowned by their own families. At least with marriage they have a home and some sort of income then maybe can escape. Unless they have a plan marriage is their only way out without consequences.