TTC

[itsthatonegirl]

Yet another "Why do you snark" thread by itsthatonegirl. Why do you hang around here since you apparently believe we are all a bunch of meanies?

How many threads have you flounced from here? At least three that I can think of. And yes, when you post offensive crap, get called on it and then leave the thread, it is flouncing, even if you say it isn't. Free Jinger doesn't forget people like you.

Oh, brother...

I still come to read at freejinger because I find it interesting. The topics you talk about are topics that interest me, although you approach them from the other side of the fence. So the board interests me, natch. Certain topics, like this one, interest me to the point where I join the discussion.

I do not think everyone is a bunch of meanies. In fact, until your comment, I encountered nothing but politeness on this particular thread. People have responded with intelligent and well thought-out answers to a question I had. I don't think that this thread has become offensive. It's just a discussion. Obviously some of my other threads offended folks. There isn't really a whole lot I can do about that. There's a whole world of difference between me and thee, formergothardite. My path has led me to where I am now, yours to where you are. I find people's paths fascinating, whether they are on the same page as me or not. I enjoy getting to know how people came to their decisions and opinions. I enjoy being asked about my own.

I am frankly getting rather tired of the word flounce. I left a thread one time to go to bed, and I had "flounced". Another time I went to get my kids from the ferry, and I'd "flounced". Over the holidays I had no computer, so of course I had "flounced" then too. There are myriad reasons why someone may need to leave a thread, and calling them out for flouncing every time seems manipulative.

[Avalondaughter]

I'm constantly relieved I live in NYC. People say we have a high cost of living, and we do, but we have decent public transportation and food is actually inexpensive compared to much of the country. (It has to do with being a port, apparently.)

Any weekend I please, I can head to Union Square and pick up a bag of local, not-quite-organic (it's apparently very difficult to grow organic apples in NYS, but they do their best) apples at 3 lb for $1.50. Whenever I hear the prices other people pay for fruit, even in summer, even in states like California (where, until I went grocery shopping there, I assumed produce was cheap!) I thank my lucky stars, individually and by name.

It's funny you should say that. FJ got me googling US food deserts and NYC was on the list http://newsone.com/newsone-original/jot ... d-deserts/

I guess it has a lot to do with whether or not you live in a poor neighborhood. If you live in the worst neighborhoods in the Bronx, you are not likely going to have the opportunity to go Union Square. My MIL lives in Forest Hills and the only supermarket that's convenient to her is a really crappy and tiny Key Food.

I complain often about the supermarkets near me because they offer such a dearth of locally grown produce (unless you want to spend more money at Whole Paycheck). Oddly enough, though I live in Westchester, I can get amazing stuff at an ordinary Shop Rite near my office in Norwalk, CT. I don't know why some markets, even though they are in fairly wealthy areas, do not keep a good produce selection. There are farmer's markets year-round every week in multiple locations, but I swear they are more about pie and cookies and bread than they are about produce!

[Sola]

I didn't mean to imply that applesauce is bad for you. Sorry about that. What I meant to say is that processed foods really shouldn't be less expensive than the food in it's original form. You actually do more work to get applesauce so why is it cheaper?

Aren't there more workers used in the creation of applesauce? Not only do the farmers pay someone to pick the crops but the companies have to pay workers to create the applesauce.

It makes no sense that processed foods should be cheaper.

As far as UK being good, America being bad. Is it easier to eat healthy in the UK? Of course, people choose how they eat but laws on food production probably play a part also.

It's probably easier to buy fresh produce. I was very surprised when I first heard how hard it was to buy fresh veggies in the USA, it seems unbelievable. We do have very strict laws on what can go into processed foods, though laws are even stricter in central Europe! However, even though it might be easier to buy fresh produce, that doesn't mean people will buy them! We still have an obesity problem, even if it isn't quite as bad as the one in the USA. A hell of a lot of people don't know how to cook these days, especially since subjects like domestic science have been dropped from the schools curriculum. Sexist it might have been but at least it taught people how to cook. I think of all the people I know outside my family and I am one of the few people who does cook from scratch. Funnily enough I was talking to my niece about this on New Years, she was on about what she was cooking for new years. She was cooking a roast for New years, but she was cooking a pre-stuffed and prepared roast, frozen roast potatoes out of a bag, packaged stuffing, and pre-prepared veggies. That isn't cooking from scratch to me, but to her it was because it meant the meal wasn't a heat up in the microwave and serve meal. But then she went to school after domestic science was dropped so she has never learned to cook.

[Wolfie]

Because American food laws are so dire that they can put loads of artificial crap in apple sauce and not much actual apple to the extent that it isn't really a portion of fruit. Thankfully it's much better here in England, and most of the really nasty additives are banned: you wouldn't recognise a UK McDonalds, it's so much healthier.

And other than propoganda, how do you know this?

I can't eat apples/applesauce, but I do get annoyed with somebody from someplace else just saying "oh yeah, we're better." Yeah it can have stuff like HFCS, but you can find lots of brands that don't if you look.

The reason that applesauce can be cheaper is that it doesn't have the storage costs of fresh apples.

[Wolfie]

It makes no sense that processed foods should be cheaper.

Okay, so, I have some apple trees, if I want to save the apples for future use as fresh, I have to put them in temp and oxygen controlled rooms to keep them good for the long term. (I read somewhere that people used to put them in air tight barrels and tie them under the ocean a long time ago.) Or, I can use energy now, cook them up, make them a shelf stable product by canning them with a little sugar, and then I don't have to worry about future refergeration and oxygen deprivation. Not to mention that apples for applesauce generally aren't the same "pretty" ones you'd buy in a store. Still food grade, but cosmetically there are issues, so they are cheaper.

The cost simply is a storage cost. It does make you wonder just how long those apples you eat or applesauce have been sitting around, doesn't it?

[Mais Pourquoi]

It seems to me that a lot of FJers are pretty advanced when it comes to cooking for themselves and their families. There are still A LOT of people in the US who rely on packaged food, and to them a Duggar recipe fits right in with dinner. I grew up in a household where "semi-homemade cooking" was the norm, and I rarely ate anything green until I went to college. While I've since learned to make most things from scratch, stick to the outer aisles of the grocery stores and all that, and rarely buy anything frozen unless it's bagged fruit/vegetables, I see many people while I'm out shopping who don't (I live in an area that's middle/working class on the edge of a city known for its food deserts). This is no excuse for recipes like TTC to exist, but it's easy for me to imagine a busy mother (one who doesn't have J'Slaves) making it for her children.

[Daenerys]

And other than propoganda, how do you know this?

I can't eat apples/applesauce, but I do get annoyed with somebody from someplace else just saying "oh yeah, we're better." Yeah it can have stuff like HFCS, but you can find lots of brands that don't if you look.

The reason that applesauce can be cheaper is that it doesn't have the storage costs of fresh apples.

I posted several links on a later post to lists of some of the additives/colourings/flavourings that are banned in the EU but found in a lot of US food produce.

I don't think England is a universally better country but I do think that we have better food laws overall.

[Mais Pourquoi]

I don't think England is a universally better country but I do think that we have better food laws overall.

You do- I wish we had them here in the US. I wish our government wasn't so beholden to huge corporations and mega-farms that we could get some quality food on our shelves and at our fast food places. You even have laws that make your skin care and cleaning products better because certain chemicals are outlawed. We do have some companies here in the US, such as Con-Agra, that don't use BPA in their canned foods because it is banned in Europe, and I'm assuming it's easier for them to just take it out for all of their products instead of producing different ones for each nation. I don't understand why other food conglomerates don't do stuff like this.

[Wolfie]

I posted several links on a later post to lists of some of the additives/colourings/flavourings that are banned in the EU but found in a lot of US food produce.

I don't think England is a universally better country but I do think that we have better food laws overall.

Just because something isn't banned doesn't mean it's in all foods. I read labels and even though it is a little bit more work, I can easily avoid foods with additives that I don't want. Some things aren't banned but also were never commonly used here, or used for a short period of time and then discontinued.

[lizzy]

I agree.

Most processed foods rely heavy on commodity ingredients (corn, wheat, soy, etc.) Those ingredients are heavily subsidized so that they are sold super cheap on the market. A $1.25 box of Kraft Mac & Cheese probably costs at most $0.25 / box to make with most of that going to packaging.

Edited to add: Back on the topic, do you all think the Duggars even know how to cook? If this is the style of cooking they have always done, I doubt any of them know how to do something like roast a chicken.

[Black Aliss]

I didn't mean to imply that applesauce is bad for you. Sorry about that. What I meant to say is that processed foods really shouldn't be less expensive than the food in it's original form. You actually do more work to get applesauce so why is it cheaper?

I suspect the processed foods are generally made from product so disgusting you wouldn't touch it, let alone purchase it, if you saw it in its original state. When the most expensive jar of natural peanut butter in the store is still cheaper than an equivalent weight package of whole peanuts, you know they're not grinding up good peanuts and putting them up in jars.

[pomology]

Look, I like the occasional batch of tater tots as much as anybody else. But I know that they are a less than healthy side dish. The idea of making a less than healthy side dish as the basis for the main course of a substantial meal? That's what I find nauseating. And then there's all the cream of sodium soup. The idea is just so revolting. Tater tots are already less than healthy, why mix them in with other less than healthy stuff? If I'm eating tater tots, they are either an addition to an otherwise healthy meal or they are a comfort food in a time of extreme stress. Not piled in with a ton of other crap and treated like a normal main course.

[Conuly]

I guess it has a lot to do with whether or not you live in a poor neighborhood. If you live in the worst neighborhoods in the Bronx, you are not likely going to have the opportunity to go Union Square. My MIL lives in Forest Hills and the only supermarket that's convenient to her is a really crappy and tiny Key Food.

Absolutely. Three million New Yorkers have poor access to good food, but the city comprises some eight million people. It's a really big city.

[NJMom]

Well, one problem that I had with the TTC is that from the moment we saw it on the Duggar's first special, it was sold as Daddy's favorite and the girls (Jana and Jill were 14 and 13 at the time) were responsible for making all of the meals for the family..I'm guessing this was an easy one that they could handle on their own, so it became a staple. Michelle has done very little cooking on the show, so who knows if she's done any IRL. I do remember seeing TTC served on paper plates with green beans (there was an episode of teaching the little boys how to make it) and again served to Charles Stanley, when he was a guest in their home, again, on paper plates, and he had to go through the serving line. It kind of looks like dog food served that way. A better option, imo, would be homemade Shepherd's pie made with real mashed potatoes, ground beef or lamb, mushrooms, carrots, peas and gravy...that's what my family likes, I don't believe they would care for TTC because of the sodium content and the fact that it has cream soup in it, not a favorite.

[donks]

I see nothing wrong with making friends with a new neighbor who happens to have fruit trees.

When our elderly neighbor, Jerry passed we were obviously sad, hell I had known himm my whole life and my son thought of him as another Grandpa. The thought of his dozen blueberry bushes didn't occur to us.

When everything legallly in his far-flung family was settled and his place sold, it wasn't blueberry season. The new owners were coming around, doing clean up of the yard and were cutting small trees and low-hanging limbs. When they made it around to the side yard (by us, Jerry had planted them as close as possible to us and our never ending supply of nicely composted straw-and-horse manure...aka: Black Gold) I did feel compelled to let them know what the 2 rows of smallish bushes were.

I made new friends that day, secuired the lives of the bushes that not only my family, but my other neighbors as well use. And still have someone to help me use up all the horsey by-product in an environmentally sound way.

Oh! And they are welcome to come visit our apple trees whenever the mood strikes them!

[emmiedahl]

While health concerns are definitely part of all this, it's mainly a combination of frugality, plus a strong aversion to the way most pre-made foodstuffs taste and smell--they really gross me the hell out. I can make my own delicious macaroni and cheese from basic ingredients (including multiple cheeses) in no time flat, so why buy a box of the nuclear-orange stuff, or pop open cans, or settle for shit like Velveeta (which, last time I checked, wasn't a whole lot less expensive than real cheese)?

Plus, I just plain like food. I respect food. I'm grateful for it. And for me, life is far too short to eat bland, ultra-processed crapfood when I have a choice to do otherwise.

Velveeta is actually more expensive than real cheese. It is generally around 4-5 dollars a pound; you can buy a block of cheddar for less.

The reason I find TTC snark-worthy is that it (and other fundie favorites) betray a lot of hypocrisy. The fundies claim to train their daughters to be homemakers, but my 9 yo daughter could out-cook them. Everything comes from a box or a can. They don't know how to make a simple, cheap chicken and rice dinner with a green salad, for example. At the heart of being a good cook is the ability to turn raw ingredients into a healthy and tasty meal; none of the fundie daughters or even mothers seem capable.

They claim to be frugal while consuming very expensive foods. No one really wants to acknowledge that eating crap is actually more expensive; it takes away a common excuse for buying it. But it *is* more expensive. Per ounce, it is outrageously expensive compared to the whole versions of these foods.

Many fundies claim to be health nuts, but they eat food that is appalling. Zsuzsu, for instance, posts her meal schedules so we can see that all of her crap about healthy eating is indeed crap.

[Jenesis Jexodus]

I'm a bit curious as to the amount of snark the Duggar's tater tot casserole receives. Is it their specific recipe that disgusts everyone, or would it be anyone's TTC? And if it is their recipe only... what is precisely so bad about it? I have their recipe open on another tab- ground turkey? Why is that gross? The cream soups I understand, kind of... they're processed, etc. I personally don't use cream soups in recipes anymore but instead replace them with a mix of dry milk and spices. Evaporated milk... tater tots... they seem fairly innocent.

Okay don't get me wrong, I enjoy eating healthy and feeding my family healthy. I'm not fanatical about it, but I do try to avoid MSG, HFCS, food coloring, and hydrogenated oils, among other things. I read labels and choose the brand with five ingredients instead of 25. I try to cook from scratch AMAP. In fact, the reason why I haven't been able to get too enthusiastic about couponing, as many people around my area have, is because so many of the coupons are for unhealthy brands. So I get wanting to be healthy. I get, too, that the Duggars might make too many unhealthy choices too much of the time. (I would never have a soda fountain in my house!) But I don't get the seemingly universal dogging on this one individual recipe. These are normal American ingredients that most families probably use.

So my questions are, 1- What, specifically, about TTC turns your stomach? And 2- What types of eaters are you? Do you avoid fast food, chips, sodas, etc.?

*edited just to write a bit better :)

For me it has to do with the source. If someone I liked and admired came up with the recipe it wouldn't bother me. Being that it comes from the Saint Duggars, who are all holier than you(?) and me, I have a duty to make fun of it. When someone puts themselves on lofty UNEARNED pedestals above others it's only natural to want to knock them down.

[DarkAnts]

What I meant to say is that processed foods really shouldn't be less expensive than the food in it's original form. You actually do more work to get applesauce so why is it cheaper?

Why is processed food cheaper then fresh food?

1) Processed food contains low end ingredients. If the food item has produce in it then its made with bruised and oddly shaped produce. Its basically the stuff that we wont eat because its not pretty. If meat is involved then its made with tough cuts of meat and its low grade meat.

2) There are subsidies for many of the ingredients in processed food including high fructose corn syrup.

3) Its cheaper to transport a can of produce because you dont need refrigeration. You can also transport more cans of food vs produce because you can stack cans and not worry about damaging the produce.

4) Processed food is always in season.

5) Processed food contains fillers that are less expensive then a product that contains 100% non-fillers. Fillers bulk up the weight of the product. Most fillers are found in meat products.

[MaroonMandy]

As someone who has happily eaten both chicken spaghetti and tater tot casserole, I feel a little bad calling the Duggars out on their eating habits but I sure as hell wouldn't brag about eating this stuff to anyone I know. And I definitely wouldn't brag about how healthily I eat then serve this to someone.

Side-note to make myself feel less like a freak: I may eat one of these dishes about once a year and it's for total comfort food reasons. Even though I may eat chicken spaghetti and TTC, I do tend to stay away from the canned soup and make my own instead. I can't imagine adding a lot of veggies to the casseroles, because that just doesn't feel authentic to me. I do, however, usually eat them with a green salad and another veggie side :D . We also have our own cows so the TTC does have high-end ground sirloin.

I agree with the hypocrisy in acting like this is a cheap way to cook and it's a suitable regular rotation meal for a family.

[shangrila]

Why is processed food cheaper then fresh food?

1) Processed food contains low end ingredients. If the food item has produce in it then its made with bruised and oddly shaped produce. Its basically the stuff that we wont eat because its not pretty. If meat is involved then its made with tough cuts of meat and its low grade meat.

2) There are subsidies for many of the ingredients in processed food including high fructose corn syrup.

3) Its cheaper to transport a can of produce because you dont need refrigeration. You can also transport more cans of food vs produce because you can stack cans and not worry about damaging the produce.

4) Processed food is always in season.

5) Processed food contains fillers that are less expensive then a product that contains 100% non-fillers. Fillers bulk up the weight of the product. Most fillers are found in meat products.

THIS

[emmiedahl]

And other than propoganda, how do you know this?

I can't eat apples/applesauce, but I do get annoyed with somebody from someplace else just saying "oh yeah, we're better." Yeah it can have stuff like HFCS, but you can find lots of brands that don't if you look.

The reason that applesauce can be cheaper is that it doesn't have the storage costs of fresh apples.

I just checked my applesauce. It is the cheapest brand on the store shelf and it has apples and water for ingredients.

With rare (and notable, and tragic) exceptions, Americans absolutely can find produce and whole foods that fit even the cheapest budget. In fact, the fresher, less processed foods tend to be cheaper. Again, there are exceptions; frozen peas are the cheapest peas you will find, but no one died from eating frozen peas. The only consistently cheap, processed food that I can think of is ramen.

Some people choose convenience foods because they like the taste, others because they do not have time to cook, others because they don't know how to work with whole foods. But most of these people pay dearly (in money) for these foods. Demand drives availability and some neighborhoods have less fresh choices because there is little demand. I read a study that found that making cheap, fresh foods available in food deserts did not have a meaningful impact on the residents' diets. Some people for whatever reasons prefer boxed or tinned food. Like the Duggars, for example.

[MaroonMandy]

Some people choose convenience foods because they like the taste, others because they do not have time to cook, others because they don't know how to work with whole foods. But most of these people pay dearly (in money) for these foods. Demand drives availability and some neighborhoods have less fresh choices because there is little demand. I read a study that found that making cheap, fresh foods available in food deserts did not have a meaningful impact on the residents' diets. Some people for whatever reasons prefer boxed or tinned food. Like the Duggars, for example.

I think it's because those are the foods they've grown up eating and what their taste buds and appetites have become accustomed to. When I was teaching I noticed that the students tended to eat the foods they were most familiar with, regardless of other choices. When we would go on trips and have to eat out, they would always want fast food places or ethnic restaurants they were comfortable with. I'd usually take them somewhere that was "exotic" to them. More often than not, they'd happily eat it, once they weren't as scared of change.

[Witsec7]

How hard is it for these folks to clean a pile of root veggies drizzle them with EVOO and roast them along with some chickens? Or to make a big grain salad that can be used in wraps for lunch? Or simple deserts like brown rice pudding with dried fruit and nuts? Or a baked pear salad with balsamic vinegar?

The problem with the duggars menus is that they must be simple enough for young kids to prepare. No one ever talks about eating leftovers either. Being a single most times I prepare something its for multi meals. I will plan out a weeks menu around a whole chicken or something like that. When I get tired of stuff, I freeze it for later.

The whole mystique of fundy cooking really vanishes when we deconstruct the menus and look at them on a per serving cost, and weigh the nutritional benefits. The fact that they have a wonderful kitchen burns me. I left my 5 burner, double oven, dual fuel range when I exited my marriage in Sept. I'm in a tiny galley kitchen now, with a horrid cook top, but eh, I manage. These folks have stuff, like a commercial kitchen, just to say they have it (pride).

Their reliance on ground meats is kinda icky to me. I don't mind ground meat (if I do it myself, or have a trusted butcher grind a roast). But the dependence on food without texture, makes me spit up in the back of my throat.

[formergothardite]

Oh, brother...

I still come to read at freejinger because I find it interesting. The topics you talk about are topics that interest me, although you approach them from the other side of the fence. So the board interests me, natch. Certain topics, like this one, interest me to the point where I join the discussion.

I do not think everyone is a bunch of meanies. In fact, until your comment, I encountered nothing but politeness on this particular thread. People have responded with intelligent and well thought-out answers to a question I had. I don't think that this thread has become offensive. It's just a discussion. Obviously some of my other threads offended folks. There isn't really a whole lot I can do about that. There's a whole world of difference between me and thee, formergothardite. My path has led me to where I am now, yours to where you are. I find people's paths fascinating, whether they are on the same page as me or not. I enjoy getting to know how people came to their decisions and opinions. I enjoy being asked about my own.

I am frankly getting rather tired of the word flounce. I left a thread one time to go to bed, and I had "flounced". Another time I went to get my kids from the ferry, and I'd "flounced". Over the holidays I had no computer, so of course I had "flounced" then too. There are myriad reasons why someone may need to leave a thread, and calling them out for flouncing every time seems manipulative.

You were one of the people who wanted to make abortion illegal and had to ponder what you would do with women who had abortions and you decided to ignore all the facts thrown at you. You don't enjoy being questioned about your opinion when reality doesn't match what you already believe, the last thread showed that.

[emmiedahl]

I think it's because those are the foods they've grown up eating and what their taste buds and appetites have become accustomed to. When I was teaching I noticed that the students tended to eat the foods they were most familiar with, regardless of other choices. When we would go on trips and have to eat out, they would always want fast food places or ethnic restaurants they were comfortable with. I'd usually take them somewhere that was "exotic" to them. More often than not, they'd happily eat it, once they weren't as scared of change.

Right, I think people just become accustomed to certain foods. I think poor people are more accustomed to them in part because of the school lunch program. I grew up eating free lunch and it was always salty, carb-y stuff. My children's school district does a great job comparatively, but the meals are still high in calories and have a lot of processed foods.

I don't say this to poor-shame: the eating habits of the poor in America come from a lot more than just cost and availability. The average American poor family has access to cheaper healthier food than what they are eating, but there are other barriers that are much more difficult to deal with. Time, for example, and personal tastes built over a lifetime, and the knowledge of how to turn beans and rice into a meal. A lot of poor people do not understand that a 50 cent apple is the same cost as a 50 cent candy bar and gives more actual food. The economics of those decisions has not been taught to them. We are making steps in the right direction, though. WIC is being changed nationwide to include less cheese vouchers and more fresh produce and whole grain vouchers, for example. A lot of poor families will add those foods to their diet simply because they are free, and then they will be more likely to buy them when they age out of the program.