Real Marriage, By Mark Drizz-Cull

[Trynn]

Exactly. In he book the exact quote indicates that he thinks her sin is specifically having sex with a guy after she and make became dating. He may call it sexual sin elsewhere, but other stuff he says indicates she cheated on him after they started kinda sorta being exclusive.

I'm at work, so I can't do up references for another 5 hours or so.

[jerkit]

Exactly. In he book the exact quote indicates that he thinks her sin is specifically having sex with a guy after she and make became dating. He may call it sexual sin elsewhere, but other stuff he says indicates she cheated on him after they started kinda sorta being exclusive.

I'm at work, so I can't do up references for another 5 hours or so.

This is the quote I was talking about:

One night, as we approached the birth of our first child, Ashley, and the launch of our church, I had a dream in which I saw some things that shook me to my core. I saw in painful detail Grace sinning sexually during a senior trip she took after high school when we had just started dating. It was so clear it was like watching a film — something I cannot really explain but the kind of revelation I sometimes receive. I awoke, threw up, and spent the rest of the night sitting on our couch, praying, hoping it was untrue, and waiting for her to wake up so I could ask her. I asked her if it was true, fearing the answer. Yes, she confessed, it was. Grace started weeping and trying to apologize for lying to me, but I honestly don’t remember the details of the conversation, as I was shell-shocked. Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.

[louisa05]

I don't buy the dream thing for a minute. He found out some other way, I'm sure. Casual conversation with a classmate type of thing probably that went "I remember Grace had a thing with so-and-so on that senior band trip" and ended with "dude, I didn't know you were dating her yet, then; geesh, calm down, it was 20 years ago".

But that would not make us all think he has special clairvoyance about everyone's "sins".

It is just disturbing on so many levels that anyone would be angry at their spouse 20 odd years later about something that happened when they were 17-18 years old. Let alone publish it in a book, guilt her for years, publicly proclaim it was a mistake to marry her and make her be all repentant about it.

Your husband is an asshole, Grace, and you would probably be better off as a single mom. Just saying.

[Firiel]

This is what I always assumed he meant from reading that passage. She cheated on him during a band trip not long after they started dating (it doesn't note if they were exclusive at this point, so "cheated" may or may not be the best term), but that the cheating was more than making out, less than sex. Probably doing hand stuff or something. I imagine if it was sex, he'd be more clear about it and say she slept with someone or had pre-marital sex. Most conservative Christians, even those that aren't no-touch courtship by any means, would consider anything below the belt to be sexual sin. Most fundies aren't weird Ken fundies where anything-but is just fine.

[browncoatslytherin]

i also don't buy the "dream" thing...he found out some other way but is trying to make it seem like it was divinely revealed to him by gawd because marky boy is speshul.

[nokidsmom]

I don't buy the dream thing for a minute. He found out some other way, I'm sure. Casual conversation with a classmate type of thing probably that went "I remember Grace had a thing with so-and-so on that senior band trip" and ended with "dude, I didn't know you were dating her yet, then; geesh, calm down, it was 20 years ago".

But that would not make us all think he has special clairvoyance about everyone's "sins".

It is just disturbing on so many levels that anyone would be angry at their spouse 20 odd years later about something that happened when they were 17-18 years old. Let alone publish it in a book, guilt her for years, publicly proclaim it was a mistake to marry her and make her be all repentant about it.

Your husband is an asshole, Grace, and you would probably be better off as a single mom. Just saying.

I don't believe the "seeing it in a dream" schtick either, it's just another dramatic, narcisstic, overblown way of describing how he found out and making him look extraordinary with amazing psychic powers thrown in the mix.

I personally knew someone who was still mad at his wife for something she did early on in their relationship. They had broken up after a few months of dating and in the month or so while they were broken up, she dated someone else and slept with that person. He had the nerve to still call his wife "damaged goods" some twenty years later. And it still upset her that she had "cheated" on him. Something that should have been put to rest years later was still haunting the two of them. On top of that, IIRC, their three kids also knew about it which I thought was rather sick but they thought of it as being "honest". :cray-cray:

[Rebelwife]

I don't believe the "seeing it in a dream" schtick either, it's just another dramatic, narcisstic, overblown way of describing how he found out and making him look extraordinary with amazing psychic powers thrown in the mix.

I personally knew someone who was still mad at his wife for something she did early on in their relationship. They had broken up after a few months of dating and in the month or so while they were broken up, she dated someone else and slept with that person. He had the nerve to still call his wife "damaged goods" some twenty years later. And it still upset her that she had "cheated" on him. Something that should have been put to rest years later was still haunting the two of them. On top of that, IIRC, their three kids also knew about it which I thought was rather sick but they thought of it as being "honest". :cray-cray:

I can't help but think of the TV show Friends....."WE WERE ON A BREAK!"

[Trynn]

This is the quote I was talking about:

I didn't mean to thank this but my phone won't let me take it back. That's not he quote I'm referring to. I'm referring to how he discusses it in the rest of the chapter which I can't quote because crazy job is crazy job.

[jerkit]

Some quotes for your reading pleasure lol. Based on these, I still think there's more to the story than simply "Grace cheated"

Later in the chapter, Grace talks about and says

Where was the freedom I was supposed to feel after finally telling the truth? Why didn’t we get closer in our marriage after exposing what seemed to be the deepest sin? God still needed to reveal more. He revealed the sin but wanted the heart and underlying motive to be exposed and repented of. He faithfully and miraculously kept us together so we could get to the next layers of pain and repentance, which wasn’t for another seven years.

Then Mark says

I knew Grace loved me, but to hear her admit that she chose in our premarital counseling not to confess the entirety of her past sins because she knew I would not marry her made me feel like a furiously trapped animal…When I discovered her sin against me and that she punished me with resulting years of sexual and emotional denial, I felt like a total fool

Grace again:

Most people who know me now wouldn’t believe I would commit such an act of sin, let alone hide it from my husband for years. Yes, I was instructed to “tell all†in premarital counseling, and the Holy Spirit nudged me to tell the truth, but I blindly believed the lie that it would hurt Mark too much to tell him, and it was just a one-time mistake anyways.

Mark:

I had never cheated on a girlfriend, but I never had a girlfriend who did not cheat on me. And now I knew that included my own wife.

[browncoatslytherin]

i think we need a wanking smiley for these guys. even from her own descriptions, what happened probably wasn't that bad. and if they weren't exclusive at that time, she shouldn't feel guilty. i've had open relationships before, and while we didn't discuss other partners, we were perfectly free to pursue anyone else that we wanted to and the other person couldn't hold it against us.

[Trynn]

Some quotes for your reading pleasure lol. Based on these, I still think there's more to the story than simply "Grace cheated"

Later in the chapter, Grace talks about and says

Then Mark says

Grace again:

Mark:

I see where you're coming from but still think it's a bit of a stretch. I think marky boy really is assholish enough to make Grace feel bad for Fooling around with a boy while they were "exclusive" some odd years ago, and convince her it's the ultimate sin.

You could be right, the text is vague enough, but I really think marky boy really is that narcissistic.

I always wondered what to think about the dream he had as well... I'm actually thinkin it could be a little but true; that someone made an offhand comment about grace on the ski trip senior year which mark didn't fully grasp the significance of at the time the remark was made. Then his mind worked on the problem in his sleep; hence the dream.

Sometimes our subconscious works like hat. Sometimes I'd go to sleep trying to conjugate Spanish verbs, then dream about the answers.

So I think it's kind of a half truth, by that mark is severely embellishing.

Either way, he's REALLY over reacting.

[Firiel]

i think we need a wanking smiley for these guys. even from her own descriptions, what happened probably wasn't that bad. and if they weren't exclusive at that time, she shouldn't feel guilty. i've had open relationships before, and while we didn't discuss other partners, we were perfectly free to pursue anyone else that we wanted to and the other person couldn't hold it against us.

:wanker:

[browncoatslytherin]

:wanker:

omg i didn't see that one! i even pulled up "more smilies" and didn't see it. i'm so glad to know fj has its bases covered when it comes to expressive smilies ;)

[jerkit]

Regardless of what it was: poor grace. She has to live with this being out there the rest of her life :(

[browncoatslytherin]

Regardless of what it was: poor grace. She has to live with this being out there the rest of her life :(

you know, thinking about it, it kinda reminds me of j'chelle's "baggage" that she has because she kissed a boy (or two) before she met j'boob. it's something that is harped on and made out to be more than it is in order to guilt trip the woman into being a "good wife" because of perceived past transgressions.

[Trynn]

Mark Driscoll, Chapter 3

Men and Marriage

This chapter is primarily for men. My tone will be as a man to men. Where I writing to women, my tone would be considerably different. So while women are welcome to read this chapter, they are also forewarned it may get a little rough.

Because how you talk to men is different from how you talk to wome, see. Right. Ever the mysoginist, Marky Boy.

To be fair, he does admit that not every man is “the caricature he critiques throughout this chapter.â€

I wonder, how many men, exactly, are as Mark describes here? I shall write about the chapter, and you shall tell me. Deal? Deal. Let's get started.

For most of human history, a male would go through 2 life phases: boy, man. Here was his life's progression:

1. Leave parents' home

2. finish education or vocational training

3. start a career track job, not a dead end joe job (yes he really does call it that)

4. meet a woman, love her, honor her, court her, an dmarry her

5. parent chidlren with her (Genesis 2:24)

Now there's this thing called adolescence. A parade of fools comes up with it. (Yes those are his actual words.) Mark defines adolescence as “boys who can shave.â€

Well, yeah, their brains aren't quite down cooking yet.

Anyway, adolescene starts in the teen years and sometimes continues indefinitely. The poor guys don;t know when they're ever going to grow up and be men because no pressure is exerted on them to do so.

Is manhood when:

1. we're old enough to legally drive? Vote? Join the military?

2. we're old enough to drink alcohol

3. When we get married?

4. When we have kids?

5. When we buy a home?

No one knows. So a lot of men have a Peter Pan complex.

Even if men do make it to adulthood, they often have this thing called a midlife crisis, which brings them straight back into adolescence. Because midlife crisis never existed before our modern day and age.

That last line was my sarcasm, not Mark.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, but when I became a man, I had to put away childish things.

Wow, that sure makes adulthood sound... like a real snooze fest. No wonder none of these men Marky boy knows want to grow up!

Moms and girlfriends who pay his bills, pick up his mess, and keep him supplied with alcohol and snacks are enablers.

Paul said a man is the image and glory of God. He's supposed to act like Jesus.

I don't really care if you buy man toys

Me: SNORT! Sometimes the jokes just write themselves

or if you play video games or rock out on your guitar. The problem is when those are prevalent, predominant, and preeminent in your life.

Wooooow Marky Boy wants to show off what big WORDS he can use... I think I'll give him a medal so I can stab his chest with it as I pin it on. As long as someone is paying their bills, not neglecting their family (if they have one), and otherwise taking care of themselves, why the hell does it matter if video games or guitar comes first in their lives?

Some of us will argue and say that none of this is a sin. Marky comes back with the idea that some things, while not sinful, are just dumb.

Actually I kind of agree with some of the things on his list of dumb things that aren't sinful:

1. Getting fired because you stayed up all night gaming

2. getting only a part time job so you can have more time for the guitar or frisbee golf

3. Spending all your money on a new car, truck, etc, or gambling.

Does #1 actually happen?

#2 might be ok if you want to try and make a career out of those things. Heck, if you can still pay your bills, why shouldn't you only get a part time job if you've decided you want more of a life? A full time job in today's society sadly no longer means a 40 hour work week. Where I work, salaried persons are expected to put in a minimum of 60 hours per week, but 70 is preferred. I know more than one person who has stepped down from this position because they want a life.

So it would depend on what extreme Mark is taking these things to as to whether or not I agree.

I want pickles. That was random.

Being a man is about being both tough and tender.

Um, so is a woman? I think that's called being a well rounded person?

As men, we are to be tough in defending the weak, and tender in comforting the hurting.

Men who are mainly tough without being tender are commonly tough chauvinists who only understand masculinity in part.

Mark then goes on to talk about “no sissy stuff sam.â€

With all the comments Mark has made on sissy stuff I am SHOCKED he's pulling this out now.

No sissy stuff sam lacks emotion other than anger, because emotions are a sign of weakness.

“Success and status stewart†believes that being a man is about what you have to do rather than you who are and how you serve.

“Give 'em hell Hank†thinks men are only warriors, brawlers, and rough guys. He's a bully... his children feel no close connection to him.

“I'm the boss bob†loves ot be in charge and tell others what to do but hates being under authority himself.

Wow if these aren't all gross stereotypes...

Anyway, Mark says these are all chauvinists. I'm not sure what that word means and I'm too lazy to pull out a dictionary, but I am guessing it's not a good thing.

Now we turn to what Mark considers the oppsite: Tender cowards.

“Little boy Larry†has a Peter Pan complex, he never grew up.

Well, good for him, I say, because growing up SUCKS. That having been said, the behaviors in the paragraph describing him aren't good: he doesn't let responsibilities get in the way of his hobbies, unable to pay his bills or look after themselves, etc. But aside from those, who CARES If his interests are “those of a boy and not of a man?†Is there a rule somewhere that says grown men can't play with legos? Because if that's the case, then I know a lot of responsible people who are immature and childish according to Mark's definition.

“Sturdy oak Owen†is physically present but emotionally absent. He goes to work, comes home, mends the fence, cuts the grass, and then turns on the tv.

Sounds like my kind of husband! If I ever got married, honestly, as an aromantic asexual, this is kind of what I'd want; a live in room mate. Where is sturdy oak owen and can I marry him?

Sturdy oak Owen is also a coward afraid of being emotional.

Then we have “Hyper Spiritual Henry,†the guy with the christian t-shirts, bumpers stickers, etc. I know the type and I'm sure you do too. Not much is said about this type, except that he's embarrssing. For once, Mark Driscoll and I agree on something. I think I need another shot or 2 or vodka to calm down after that.

“Good time Gary,†super fun, the life of the party, a really nice guy.... everybody likes him but nobody respects him. He turns everything into a joke and doesn't realize that his life is the joke. He can't hold a job, pay his bills, etc.

None of these guys are the kind of men Jesus wants us to be... apparently Jesus is the key to understanding masculinity.

Jesus wore (what we would consider) a dress. Juuuuuust sayin'.

More talk about how Jesus was the perfect man.

If you are tough and tender at the right times and take responsibility for yourself and others, then you are truly a man's man, a godly man, being made into a man like the perfect god man, Jesus christ.

I think I just threw up a little. *sips more vodka*

The next section is entitled: a wife's perspective

lots of men are really just boys who can shave. This often makes marriage terrifying for a woman. 1 Peter 3:1-6 talks about wives' fears of marriage... hang on, really? How come I don't remember reading this on my zillion read throughs of the NT? Googles.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

I think Mark is stertching a bit. I can see why this passage would terrify women who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, but I don't see it as addressing the fears of the women, and how it's normal for them to be afraid. I think Drizz-cull is taking things out of context. Again.

And don't worry, this won't be the last time we see this verse, by a long shot. We're just getting started on the crazy, after all.

When a woman gets married, she's trusting that man for the rest of her life not to:

1. hit her

2. cheat on her

3. rape her

4. kill her

5. that he'll work hard and pay the bills

6. Love the kids

So, does #3 mean that Mark believes in marital rape? That would be the ONE redeeming quality this guy has.

Mark didn't undersatnd this fear until he had daughters, because apparently he never sat down and listened to Grace spell it out for him.

Mark is afraid of handing his daughters off to a man and trusting that that man will love and protect them like he should. This gives him “fear and great concern.â€

It's the husband's responsibility to obey God so these fears don't happen. That's why in 1 Peter 3:7 it says “Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife as to the weaker vessel, and as being heris together in the grace of life, that your prayres may not be hindered.â€

Husbands must alleviate the wives' fears in a way that shows the women honor.

Mark then talks about how a husband must honor his wife:

Physically:

--women are the weaker vessel

--Do you ever hit your wife? If you do, this is not honoring your wife.

--you honor your wife by being physically safe for her to be around

--in a cage fight a man will always win

Emotionally:

--some men think they aren't emotional andodn't need to connect, but this is a lie. Men and women have the same emotions, they just express them in different ways.

--your wife needs intimacy, she wants to know you. You should open up to her.

--talk about love langauges... you need to speak your wife's love language.

Verbally:

--how do you speak to your wife? Do you raise your voice, threaten her, call her stupid in front of the kids (ok Mark didn't say that one, I added it because that's exactly what dad did, does, to my mom.)

--basically don't verbally abuse her, like my father did. (Trynn's father, not Mark's.)

Financially:

--many men hit rough times due to unemployment. They may have a hard time finding a decent job.

I'm glad Mark admits this. My father hit such a patch, and he's very proud of the fact that he kept trying to find work instead of... not. I can truly say he has always provided.

--these men need encouragement to keep seeking employment and the humility to take wahtever jobs they can to feed their families.

Me: I don't really remember what dad had to do to feed us, I was 4, what did I know? All I knew was that suddenly daddy lost his job. I told him we'd go to the store and buy him a new one, but for some reason he didn't take me up on that offer.

--Mark brags about getting through tough economic times without debt. Congratulations Marky boy, again, do you want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? If debt is what it takes to get a family out of poverty, then... then... then fuck you Mark Drizz-cull.

--The bible says if any man doesn't provide for his household, he is worse than an unbeliever and has denied the faith.

--in Genesis 3, the womens' curse was related to marriage and children. This means a woman will be stretched and sanctified as a wife and mother. Her joy and satisfaction will come from her husband and children.

--the man's curse, however, was providing for his family. A man will always find it very difficult not to idolize or demonize his work... huh?

--men have to work harder and smarter than other men if you want to feed your family. If you want any men to respect you, you pay the bills.

--Mark thinks that women who work before getting married, or before the kids are born, or who finds a way to make money from home without neglecting her husband and children, is acceptable. But it is the primary job of men to make the money and feed their family. Not the woman's.

--studies show that even feminists are happier when men are the ones providing the big bux.

--Mark claims that men today don't want children because it means they'd have to grow up, provide for said children, and stop acting like children themselves.

Just because you become a grown up and have responsibility doesn't mean you stop acting like children, right dad? Dad! Get that bow off your head! I know little Suzie thinks it's funny and it's making her laugh but.... sigh. Yes, my dad is an overgrown child. But he always still provided for us. What do you make of that Marky boy?

--There's apparently nothing sadder than a woman who wants to be a mom (and loves Jesus) but the husband says he's the head of the house and he doesn't want children. This is sad because the husband is commanding the wife to sin, because this is denying a woman's maternal instincts.

Now, I do agree that a man and a woman have to be on the same page in regards to bearing children but.... but... the man who wants children is a sinning sinner who sins... just.... darelwhrt;oegiutwef;eowerighuehrfhu

Ahem.

More ranting about women who want to work outside the home, nothing new, just him repeating himself with different phrasing. Oh and stay at home dads are also sinning sinners who sin, because BYE-BULL.

--a man can't just make money, he must also be a good steward of said money. He needs to have a budget.

--a few sentences of guilt trip about moms who leave their children at day care... because day care can't come close to what a Godly mother could do, and it would just cost extra money anyway, and outweigh the benefit of the woman working outside the home, because the child care money would eat away all her salary.

Technologically.

Yes, apparently you can honor your wife by... technology?

--are you always checking your phone?

--do you spend hours surfing the net?

--do you bring your phone/laptop/tablet to the table?

--do you spend your date nights watching a movie?

Turn the device off and bond with your spouse already.

Oh god, I'm going to need more vodka to get over the fact that I agree with Mark Drizz-cull. Not about date nights not being movie nights, but just in general the oh my god turn off your phone/tablet/computer and PAY ATTENTION TO ME DAMMIT.

The next section is entitled covenant Marriage.

Understanding contract vs covenant is essential in marriage.

--contract marriage: two people with 2 lives negotiate the terms of their marriage. This makes marriage more like a business deal, and if at any point one spouse thinks the other isn't keeping up their end of the deal, divorce could happen!?!?!?!?!

--Covenant marriage, on the other hand, Mark doesn't define very well. He just goes on and on about covenants being biblical and lasting forever and has Mark never read the parts of the bible where God doesn't follow through on his end of a covenant because the other party didn't either? Like, all throughout the old testament? Has Mark ever actually read the bible?

A christian woman once told me Mark Driscoll is a much better speaker, by leaps and bounds, than he is a writer. Yeah, because he sucks at writing.

--The husband is the head of this particular marriage covenent, because

1. God called the race “man†(Gen 1:26)

2. By naming Eve, Adam was exercising authoirty over her as god commanded (Gen 2:23)

3. even though the woman sinned first. God came calling for Adam and held him responsible (gen 3:8-9) because he failed to protect Eve.

4. It's Adam's sin that is given to the entire human race, because he is our head.

5. The bible repeatedly declares that husbands are to lovingly and sacrificially lead their homes and wives are to submit. He lists too many bible verses for me to copy and I'm too lazy.

However, the husband is not the ultimate authority. God is.

--a husband and wife are equal with complementary roles, like a left hand and a right hand.

I'm ambidextrous, Marky boy, what do you think about THAT?!

--wives are to submit to husbands as Jesus does to God the Father...

--despite sin, the husband is still the boss of the family.

--a good head will not abuse his responsibility.

--being the head of the family doesn't mean he does everything. If the wife is a better accountant than you are, SHE should be in charge of the check book, not you. Men might end up doing most of the cooking if they are the better cook.

--there is a myth that divorce and adultery are the same between christian couples and secular couples. This is nonsense, because those Christians weren't REAL Christians, and the study didn't make sure of that.

Things that help a marriage go well:

1. get involved in a good churche

2. agree on what the bible says

3. worship together at home.

Getting invovled in a good churches

there are many benefits of a husband being involved in a bible believing, Jesus loving, conservative Christian church.

So, no benefits for men who are involved in a.... LIBERAL church? So noted.

--men who go to church are more positive toward their wives

--evangelical married men have the lowest rates of domestic violence (wilcox, soft patriarchs, 182)

--Godly men make the best fathers

Everyone on Planet Adventist thinks my father is sooooo godly because he projects a good outward appearance. They didn't live with the verbal/emotional abuse that I put up with for YEARS. Mark driscoll can suck my.... popsickle.

--couples who regularly attend church are happier and have better marriages. Mark does give a citation but I HATE it when authors throw all their citations at the end of the book instead of at the end of each chapter like sane authors do. It makes it harder to look shit up. Even without seeing the source I call bullshit.

--couples who attend church together are less likely to separate

Fear mongering much Marky boy?

--too often the wife is the one who is choosing the church, because it meets her and the children's programming needs. This leads to the husband not wanting to go because he sees it as more of a church for women and children...

I've been to a lot of churches in my life, and honestly I don't know of one that could be construed as “primarily for wives and children.â€

I do agree, however, that a woman and a man must choose a church TOGETHER. That's what my parents always did. On time, they even consulted my opinion. Actually I don't remember if they did or not, but I gave it to them anyway; my best friend goes to this church every week, can we go to this one every week too? I like this church. My little brother was a 1 year old at the time, so he didn't get a say in the matter.

Back to Marky boy:

--the husband needs to be the one to pick the church. A man chooses a church based on the pastor, because men want to follow good godly leaders.

--once you're in a local church, don't just go anonymously, get involved and connected to the members.

I dislike this idea. I'm more of an introvert; I always loved going to big churches where no one talked to me. My parents, unfortunately, are the exact opposite. This did not lead to good experiences growing up.

Agree on what the bible says

--you and your wife must agree on your theology of marriage.

I agree, actually. It's always good for a husband and wife to be on the same page with these things.

--couples who don't do the hard work of studying what the bible says about marriage may believe in God, but they'll fail to enjoy the oneness that God wants.

--couples who are part of the same denomination are 42% more likely to be happy than couples who are not.

Only 42%? Jeez, that's not even half! That being said, I sort of agree, particularly in a religion like seventh day adventism, where it is so different from say, being a baptist, that, even if one is a seventh day baptist, it would be VERY hard to mesh the two. But I don't get the impression that most Christian denominations are that different from each other, depending?

--theological conservativism is associated with happier marriages.

--theological agreement is more important than an equal sharing of chores in the home. Tell THAT to the person who has to do the dishes AND remove the lazy spouse's snotty tissues from said dishes because no matter how many time zie tells hir not to, zie does it anyway.

–Mark talks about egalitarian marriage. And here is wear I'm going to start banging my head against the keyboard.

Citation for the following paragraph: Gary Thomas, sacred marriage: what if god designed marriage to make us holy more than to make us happy?

This book, sadly, was published in my home state. I'm embarrassed for us.

--the evidence concludes that whether or not a wife works outside the home, she still does most of the chores.

--Then this quote from the above source:

the researchers studying egalitarian marriages find no support for the theory [of egalitarianism]…..promotes wife's marital quality. It is more important for wife's marital happiness [yes, they really do phrase it like that: they do not say “*A* wife's personal happiness] that husband and wife have shared ideas about marriage, that they both commit to the institution of marriage, that they are integrated into an institution (like the church) that also has these same ideas about marriage, and that the marriage and the husbands are emotionally invested in marriage.

While it is very important that husband and wife agree, I see no reason an egalitarian marriage can't work if the husband and wife both agree to make an egalitarian marriage work.

--couples who agree on their biblical rolls will embrace them and find meaning.

--as long as the husband expresses gratitude for her work in the home, the wife does not usually feel slighted.

– the husband embraces the breadwinner position as a god given duty.

Worship Together At Home

--the bible expects husbands to function as pastors.

--the bible commands women to take theological questions to their husbands, trusting that their husbands will know their bibles.

--if couples frequently engage in worship in the home, their marriage is more likely to succeed.

A few tips for the guys:

1. as a family leader, model humility, honesty, study, and worship.

2. make sure everyone in your family has a good, age appropriate bible that they regularly read.

At least Mark isn't KJV only then.

3. Make sure you have some basic bible study tooks available for your family and that everyone learns to use them.

4. Buy good Christian books for everyone in your famiy to read. Include christian biographies.

I read these as a child. Some were ok, most were pretty stupid.

5. Choose good books that you and your wife can be reading together. Including books of the bible. Discuss what you are learning.

Actually, if I ever had to get married for whatever reason that does sound like a cool idea, but this is because I'm a bibliophile, not a Christian. Reading and discussing books with someone together sounds positively thrilling to me. Of course, I'm more likely to pick a star trek novel to read with any room mate I did this with, but one room mate wasn't having any of that, so we picked a nice, thick book on nutrition.

6. If there are bible based classes offered in your church, attend with your family.

Only ones I can think of are baptismal classes, only offered to baptimsal candidates.

7. Redeem your commute

Seriously? Who talks like this?!

(continuing) by listening to good sermons and classes, many of which you can download for free. Mark has a citation of where you can get some but I think most people know how to work google so I'll skip that.

8. Have dinner together with your family most nights, and use that time to pray, read a portion of the bible and talk about it together.

Oh my. If I had to interrupt my eating to read the bible... I'd be piiiiiiissssed.

9. pray for each family member every day and let them know you are praying for them.

Can you imagine how this would go with the duggars?

Nutshelle: And dear Lord I pray for, um, oh darn, what was that boy's name? You know that little boy with the blond hair and blue shirt Lord, I just pray for him that, um....

ahem.

10. place a hand the head of each of your children every day and pray over them. Then kiss them on the head and make sure they often get a loving hug.

You know, some children just aren't huggers. That's ok, as long as you still go out of your way to make sure they know that they are loved.

11. while either snuggling or holding hadns, pray with and for your wife every day and remember to include the reasons you are thankful to God for her that day.

If these things are lacking in your home, it's likely your family really really wants them and will tahnk you for including them.

Your wife gets to be umpire on the content of this chapter. If it helps, buy her a referee shirt to wear to bed.

That honestly sounds really uncomfortable, I'd rather wear pajamas, thanks.

Mark says that a husband may think he's loving and leading well, but it is the wife who gets to make that final call.

Ephesians 5, wives submit, but husbands love your wives.... verse 21 tells them to submit to one another. This means she gets to decide if you are loving and leading well and you get to decide if she is being submissive enough.

I think I need a shower after typing that out.... shudder.

Men bear a great burden before God to be responsible to their families. Mark hopes you found this chapter challenging instead of condemning.

I hope you found my recaps at least somewhat interesting.

Tune in next time to hear all about the respectful wife! I've read this chapter before and folks, this is going to be a DOOZY.

[browncoatslytherin]

fuck, i actually agreed with a couple of things in there. i guess it just proves that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Sobeknofret]

fuck, i actually agreed with a couple of things in there. i guess it just proves that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

That's really the problem with people like Driscoll: they say just enough things that really make good sense to make people think that *everything* they say makes sense.

[Trynn]

I totally agree. Mark makes juuuuust enough sense that sometimes you miss the WTF moments.

Also, I seriously doubt Grace wrote this chapter. She says she did, but her writing style is so similar to that of Mark I honestly don't think she did. Maybe she outlined it and Mark wrote it... or something.

Real Marriage Chapter 4

The respectful Wife

Grace is writing this Chapter, so I'm probably going to interject with DAMN YOU GRACE a lot. But it's Mark's fault too for allowing this drivel to be published, soooo him too I guess.

The chapter opens with the story of Queen Esther, and how she neither backed down from her husband, but she still respected him throughout the ordeal. The story of Esther somehow removes any excuse we have for disrespecting their husbands.

I agree that you should respect your husband. I think you should respect 98% of the human population (the other 2% are child molesters and assholes). However, I believe Grace is taking respect too far.

Some of you were probably hoping Grace wouldn't address the issue of female submission. Most books she's seen written on this topic were written by men, so she wanted to address it.

That's odd. Most I've seen have been written by women. I digress.

Men and women were created equally but have different roles. Separate but equal didn't work in the 50s ('60s? When was the civil rights movement again? Before I was born, so, there were dinosaurs.) and it doesn't work in the 21st century.

Grace says that she is not a naturally respectful wife. I'm not sure what she means by the word, “Respect.†She gives a definition, but it's pretty broad:

to respect is to notice, regard, honor, prefer, defer to, encourage, love, and admire. (bolding mine)

Most of the items on this list I don't disagree with, but the one in bold worries me. I don't have to defer to my friend Justin in order to respect him if, say, we are deciding what restaurant to go to. It's not disrespecting him to say, “I hate that place.†In fact, I'm sure if I went anyway because I felt he'd not find me respectful enough, he'd be a little offended.

What dictionary is Grace pulling this out of, anyway? She doesn't cite her source. Here is the word “respect†as defined by Miriam Webster.

:

1.a feeling of admiring someone or something that is good, valuable, important, etc.

2.a feeling or understanding that someone or something is important, serious, etc., and should be treated in an appropriate way 3. a particular way of thinking about or looking at something

That definition makes more sense to me, and it's a bit more narrow. Respect as defined by Gracie just doesn't seem healthy to me.

There are 3 ways to disrespect your husband, apparently: Head, heart, and hands.

Heads of Respect

Respect or disrespect start in our brains. When you think things about your husband like, “that was a dumb decision he made, I can do better than that.†“I'll just fix all the things he does wrong,†“when he is out of town, life is easier.†That is disrespect of the head.

Grace quotes 2 Corinthians 10, wherein it says to bring every thought into capitvity to the obedience of Christ.

Then she quotes Phillipians 4:8-9, which is the verse that tells us to think about whatever things are good. I have this verse memories in English and Spanish, because I speak Spanish and in High School Spanish we were allowed to get extra credit by memorizing bible verses. That used to be one of my main hobbies anyway, so eventually my Spanish teacher cut me off after like, 3 verses and 2 chapters. Meanie.

Most of us are inclined to disagree that respect is necessary and vital.

I don't know anyone who thinks that, really. Unless we're using Gracie's murky definition, the part that says “to defer to†in which case, hell yeah I'm bristling.

Unfortunately the submission thing has been used to demean women from the pulpit.

In the same paragraph, Grace starts rambling about how we've experienced things in our lives that cause us to build emotional walls. She didn't realize she was doing this, because she had no brothers and didn't understand guys. Some of you might not have had a father. 4 out of 10 kids go to bed fatherless. Citation needed.

A fatherless girl is almost always more vulnerable to ungodly men because she has no idea of what a godly safe man is like.

New theory: Grace's father died when she was young. That is why she married Mark and considersh im a good husband.

If we have bitterness, we need to repent and ask God for respectful thoughts.

Grace closes this section with telling women that to begin to cultivate a respectful attitude towards one's husband, one should focus on the positive things he's doing and not so much on the negative.

Which in theory I would agree with, but Grace is carrying it to an extreme. If there are things about your husband that really bother you, that needs to be addressed. It's not disrespect to tell your husband “hey, behavior X is really bothering me. Could you maybe do Y behavior instead?â€

Make a list of what you appreciate about your husband.

Grace says Mark enjoys verbal and written encouragement, so she does that a lot. That is a way of respecting your husband.

I can get behind speaking your husband's love language. Grace doesn't use those particular words but ehh.

Hearts of Respect

Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Words flow from our hearts. If we have respectful hearts, we will not speak disrespectfully.

Do you usually respond to your husband with criticism or with silence? When you talk about him in public, do you tear him down or build him up?

Grace is clearly of the “thou shalt never speak ill of thy husband†school of thought. I personally don't think it's a problem unless it gets excessive and there isn't abuse involved. Sometimes people just gotta vent, but if every word out of your mouth about him is bad, that's probably a problem. But I don't think Grace is talking about extremes here. I think she's talking about Woman x telling woman Y “I hate it when my husband forgets to put down the toilet seat.†and Woman X nodding along saying “yeah mine does too oh look, SQUIRREL.â€

She also says you shouldn't talk about issues with your husband to “female accountability relationships that degenerate into gossip, busybodying, and disrespecting our husbands in the name of ministry.†Whatever that means.

Is she talking about female accountability relationships in general, or only the ones that degenerate into excessive ammounts of gossip? Does she think all female accountability relationships do this? It's not clear.

It's also not clear what the difference is between the head of respect and the heart. They seem to be kinda the same thing.

Grace talks briefly about how women use words as a form of control because they don't know how to /don't want to have healthy conversations with their husbands about their frustrations. So, at least she's a step above Debi Perl in that she believes in comunication about some things instead of only submission, so, half credit?

Follow the golden rule, pray for your husband... some common sense stuff about how to respect people, like not interrupting (unless of course, the roof is on fire), not cutting them down (“You're so stupid!â€) etc.

Apparently a woman's battle with words goes all the way back to the garden of eden, because Eve sinned by using words to tempt Adam.

Well jee, what was she supposed to do, play charades? Physically overpower it and shove it down his throat? This passage doesn't... make.... sense.

Hands of Respect

God created women to be helpers. This is a reflection of God's character.

Pretty shitty character if you ask me.

Grace quotes this depressing passage:

1 corinthians 11:7-9 man is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for man.

When I was a Christian, this verse depressed the shit out of me.

upon marriage, a woman's life changes as she joins her husband in his life's course.

Notice how the man's life doesn't change as he joins with the woman's in HER life course. Or THEIR lives don't change as THEY join EACH OTHER in THEIR lives' course.

No wonder I couldn't finish this book back when I was a Christian. This book is depressing. I'm going to need some more vodka for this.

Grace has a list of Hands of Respect:

1. Hands that pray.

If you only pray for your husband to change, you won't see your sin too. When Mark is stressed, Grace offers to pray out loud for him.

This... actually isn't bad advice for Christians.

2. Hands that touchin

*whacks inner 12 year old with a hammer.*

Physical affection is the key to intimacy. If he enjoys touch, you probably can't go overboard on this one, but if he is more reserved, you can give neck rubs and.....

Wait, what?

I just glanced back. That's not a mistype on my part. She really does say that you shouldn't go overboard if he enjoys touch, but you should slip it in wherever you can if he is “more reserved.†Isn't that... I dunno, backwards? Unless Grace is trying to prevent women from giving their husbands blue balls, this doesn't make sense. And I doubt that's the case because elsewhere in the book they get super graphic, so I can't see them holding back here.

Sex for the purpose of oneness doesn't just happen, you have to stroke it all throughout the day. I'm an asexual virgin, So I don't know if that really sounds right to me. Wouldn't that just result in the aforementioned blue balls?

2. Hands that Feed

Take time to menu plan, grocery shop, cook, etc. Grace gives some websites for healthy meals. Allrecipes.com is actually a really good website I use frequently. Not sure about the others, never heard of them.

3. Hands that Hunt and Fish

I actually do want to try my hand at bow hunting, but other than that I'm a vegetarian and don't want to do either of those things because I have no idea who would eat what I killed, and I don't like hunting for sport. I've gone fishing before, but it was the type where you threw the fish back.

Why is hunting and fishing important, anyway? I thought women were supposed to cook and clean, not hunt and fish.

Grace likes to fish. Mark doesn't hunt. The point of this was to find mutual interests and do them together.

Which seems like an odd label then, why not just say something like, “hands that join his†or “hands that do things he likes to do?

Mark likes basketball, so Grace has attended plenty of games with him and learned how basketball works.

Kudos to her because I could never figure that out.

In return, Mark takes her shoe shopping.

4. Hands that open the bible

It will be impossible to serve and respect your husband if you don't get to know Jesus. Therefore you must read all about him.

The bible gives many principles to respectfully help our husbands, but not many methods. Women are prone to ask other women what to do in certain situations, or to read books. But these are all wrong. You should start by asking your husband.

A paragraph about how important comunication is to a relationship. It's actually nothing I disagree with.

The next sub section under this chapter is:

Disagreeing Respectfully

Oh boy. I have a feeling it's going to be different from my definition of “hey person X, behavior 8 bothers me, could you maybe do behavior 5 instead?â€

Grace and Mark fight. Apparently she gets asked that a lot. They've never known a couple who agreed on everything, unless they were in denial.

If you're not in an abusive relationship, viewing your husband as a friend should help you be respectful of your husband.

At least she makes an exception for abuse, so, half credit?

Two types of extreme women during disagreements:

1. Silent, compliant wife

2. loud, contentious wife.

The first wife thinks she is practicing holy submission, but is instead making an idol of her husband. Apparently a woman who sits by and lets her husband make foolish decisions is a bad thing. This woman is giving into the sin of fear of man, rather than of God.

The loud contentious wife tends to fight back with cutting remarks when faced with conflict. Many bible verses on contentious women.

Angry arguments are “ball breakers†and put their husbands in no win situations. These women often complain men won't lead, but that's really just because the women won't let them. Underneath a controlling attitude is usually something big she needs to work through, like past trauma or a huge fear. A neglectful father is also on this list.

Apparently using the excuse “it's just my personality/the way I am†is a no no. You're supposed to let god change you into either quiet or bold submission.

What fears do you have about your husband? What fears do you have about letting God change you? What fears do you have about the future?

Only the last question actually applies to me.

Women often rush to control their husbands when the fear gets overwhelming. Women who succeed in doing this through disrespect eventually come to despise those whom they try to control.

We cannot allow our husbands to control us, nor should we control them. Instead we should all be controlled by the holy spirit.

If you've talked through an issue and still don't come to an agreement:

Option 1:

the husband prays, discusses it with his wife, patiently waits for either the wife to change her mind through her prayer, or God changes his mind and sees her wisdom. This is how most differences are settled in a healthy marriage.

Whoa... Grace thinks this option is HEALTHY? Oh Gracie, honey! If you weren't propogating this nonsense to other women, I'd feel sorry for you.

It just seems so... passive aggressive. “Hey honey, has god changed your mind yet?â€

Option 2:

the husband appeals to a higher authority, such as a pastor or bible based counselor who isn't a relative or biased friend. The mediator then makes a decision they should both obey.

Option 3:

The husband makes a decision and the wife follows it. The wrong party needs to admit it if the decision is wrong.

The closest option that comes to being healthy is option 2, but I would reserve it for only the most serious of issues. I think that if the couple has talked and talked and talked it out and still can't agree... maybe they should talk some more? Maybe the party to whom it matters most should decide. Maybe they should flip a coin?

The next sub section is titled: Counseling Respectfully.

And no, she's not talking about a therapy session. Grace is talking about giving our husbands counsel, ie “advice.â€

As helpers, women are to be wise counselors to husbands. Not the only one, though, cuz men need other men as well.

But women can't talk about issues to other women...

damn you Grace Driscoll!

This role of wives as counselors requires wisdom and how to share it with your husband.

Now, I don't know about the rest of you folk, but I'm incredibly blunt. If I had advice to share, I'd probably just blurt it out (though possibly in private.) Yes, I am that person: if you ask me if the dress makes you look fat, I'm going to tell you, “yes.†I don't beat around the bush, and I'm pretty no nonsense.

Yes, tact is something I need to learn. I never said I was perfect.

It just seems like my way of doing things is better than trying to tiptoe around the issue all in the name of respect. Some people tell me that's why I'm the one they take me clothes shopping, even though I'm also the type of person who thinks orange plaid pants and a pink shirt is a GREAT outfit.

Grace recommends we ask our husband how we can give him counsel, and if he doesn't like the idea then pray for God to open his heart.

Encouraging Respectfully

People really need a whole 2 pages on this topic? It's ENCOURAGEMENT, ok? Not that hard to do respectfully. Even a tactless blunt person like me can figure that out. I'm tempted to skip this segment.

We need to be encouraging to our husbands. Wow, what a shocker.

Nagging him like a child is not encouraging. Nor are “backhanded compliments†whatever that means.

Everything, for a man, is viewed as respect or disrespect.

Nothing is ever neutral for men, hear that men? That means you're black and white thinking.

God's kindness leads us to repentence, so if we are kind towards our husbands, he will repent too.

Submitting respectfully

Submission is often a misunderstood term. Ebul feminists lie to us when they tell us that a woman's worth decreases when she submits to her hubsy.

Woman's value comes from being created in God's image, not from what we do.

Grace's 5 children don't lessen their value when they submit to her as a parent.

Really? You're going to compare a child submitting to the parent to one grown ass adult submitting to another? Apples to oranges, Gracie.

A husband does not have ultimate authority over his wife. She must not sin when he asks her to. She is to submit to God first.

A husband is not automatically more valuable just because he's the head. A husband is not always right.

The bible never commands women to submit to men in general. Grace agrees with me that this would lead to “horrendous abuse.†You only submit to your husband, pastor, or government official.

Apparently the natural outcome of godly male headship is female fulfillment. This protects women from abuse by other men.

Husbands must love their wives like Jesus does the church...

Women trying to grow in submission must look to Jesus, because Jesus was submissive to God the father. Jesus is equal to God, yet he submits. It's the same way; women are like Jesus and men are like God the father, equal, but practicing submission. And now I have images of Jesus being God the father's submissive.

I'd whack my inner 12 year old with a hammer but I am REALLY tired of playing whack-a-mole with her and am just going to roll with it.

If your husband isn't fulfilling his part by being loving, you're still called to do your part by being submissive. Know that God hears your prayer and honors your obedience and I need chocolate or I shall gag.

If there is abuse or harm you shouldn't endure it. Jee, how's a woman supposed to even know in a situation like that?

You should have regular conversations about what submission and respect mean.

Grace talks about one woman who said she was

in my own sin, I chose to falsely flatter that which wasn't honorable in my husband, selfishly hoping I'd get a better experience. My sin of giving way to fear led me to submit dutifully while becoming more enslaved in my husband's self focused desires rather than the lord's desires.

sounds like a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. You must submit, but if you do submit to your husband's unholy desires, you are a sinning sinner who sins. Ugh. The mental gymnastics these people have to go through must leave their brains too thin to function.

Grace again wants to emphasize the importance of respect. Some marriages she's seen are because the woman is unwilling to realize she's being disrespectful.

If we don't respect our husband, we make him vulnerable to having an affair.

Grace talks about having “work spouses.â€

A work spouse is a co worker of the oppsite sex with whom you have a close platonic relationship. In many ways, these relationships resemble a marriage.

Oh jeez... seriously? No having platonic relationships with opposite sex people, or you'll end up in an AFFAIR?!?!?!!?!?

Nevermind the fact that this totally ignores the fact that GAY/LESBIANS EXIST TOO!

Women who work outside the home need to be aware of this temptation. Really? Like men don't?

Our goal should not be to change our husbands, or even to save our marriages. Our goal should be to glorify God by submitting to our husbands, trust that his commands are those of a loving father... the husband's commands or God's?

Look, I love my dad. Before he went off the religious deep end, I even used to respect him. But even so, I don't submit to him. Even when I was a child, there were things I thought he was wrong about. Once dad had calmed down, he was usually willing to listen to me about it, and at times I didn't have to submit to him. As an adult, of course I don't submit to him! He gives me advice, which I listen to respectfully, and then I either take it or I don't. It is not disrespecting my father not to take his advice, and I think the same could be said of a husband.

Finaly done with that awful chapter. Ugh! I could write multiple posts on this chapter but I'm getting tired (and drunk), so I'll stop here for now. Maybe on my blog I'll do more posts on it later but I kinda want to go through the rest of the book first.

Have a good night.

[jerkit]

Grace's father died in 2013.

(WHY do I know so much about these people?!)

[Trynn]

Grace's father died in 2013.

(WHY do I know so much about these people?!)

It wasn't a real theory, anyway.

I'm gonna divide this chapter into parts because, this is taking a lot out of me to do it all at once. So I'll try to get through half a chapter.

Chapter 5: Taking out the Trash

Just like every house accumulates trash that needs to be taken out regularly, we humans have sin that we need to repent of regularly.

All couples fight. The only couples the Driscolls have seen that don't fight are either lying or living emotionally distant lives. When you get married, you WILL fight.

Maybe married people can give me more feedback: is this true or false? It has the ring of truth to it but it's Driscoll, so that doesn't mean much.

the question is, will you fight well to the glory of god and the good of your marriage?

Lol whut? What does this even MEAN? I have no idea. Is this where you fight about how best to worship God? Maybe some married people could help me out here because I honestly odn't get it.

There are 4 horsemen of marital death. I don't think this is coming from Mark, I think he's paraphrasing Dr. John Gottman, who he says is a marriage expert.

So, what ARE the 4 horsemen of the marital apocalypse? Someone please write a fanfiction about 4 horsemen of the marital apocalypse because that would be more interesting.

Horse man #1: Criticism. See, when you criticize your spouse, your attacking the person, not the problem.

Because Marky boy has never heard of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, apparently.

Horseman #2: Contempt. Contempt is showing disgust for your spouse. This can include behavior such as constant eye rolling, mocking, etc.

Horseman #3 is defensiveness. This occurs when people give nonpologies, or back down from the conflict. It is the excusing of behavior.

Horseman #4: Stonewalling. This is when we stop working toward oneness and instead settle for 2 parallel lives.

Because heaven forbid you be your own person, kiddies.

Stonewalling is when you have separate financial, social, and spiritual lives.

I actually don't see a problem with this? I mean if you and your spouse have NOTHING in common, sure. But like, my mom, for example, has a separate checking account from my dad. Also, there are certain bills that are in her name only and not my dad's. My eyes kinda glazed over when she was explaining this, but it was something to do with "in case something happens to your father." I guess it looks better if some bills are in her name for some reason at that point?

So, in some cases, isn't it GOOD to have a separate financial life? I even think it's a good thing to have your own spiritual life, because your spirituality should be between you and God, and no one else. I'm not saying you can't pray and read the bible together, but like, it just seems off to me that your relationship with God would include a 3rd person of necessity.

I also don't see a reason against having some friends that aren't mutual. One of my adult friends was explaining that her husband hangs around a certain group of friend sometimes, and she doesn't like them. But she knows it's important to her husband to hang out with them, and so her husband goes and does his thing and she does her thing, and then other times they visit with mutual friends.

So in some cases and in moderation I disagree that these things are bad.

Oh, and apparently husbands do 85% of the stonewalling. Citation needed.

The reason the 4 horsemen exist is sin, and I bet you can guess what the answer to that is! Or do I rreally need to tell you?

Mark then goes on to describe repentance. He presents to us the story of a woman who couldn't afford to buy things she wanted, so she got a secret credit card and attempted to pay it off without her husband knowing. Except she kept buying more stuff, accumulating more debt, etc.

Finally she sat her husband down and confessed.

I... don't really see how any of this was a sin? Yeah it was dumb to keep buying things she couldn't afford, but wasn't Marky-boy talking a few chapters ago how some things are not sins, but aren't a good idea either? In fact, IIRC, one of the examples he used was a guy who spent every single penny on a new car. Mark said the man was stupid, but he wasn't sinning.

Based on this, I'm guessing that the woman's sin wasn't living beyond her means, but rather, daring to have a financial life outside of her husband's.

I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit here in the chapter, because Mark brings the story up again when he talks about forgiveness.

As an act of repentance, the wife (no, we don't get a name, not even a fake one) cut up the credit card in front of him and promised never to do it again. Her husband forgave her, and admitted that her keeping it all a secret from him had hurt worse than her spending the money.

I'm not saying it's a good idea to keep secrets like that from your spouse, especially if you're in trouble. But OH GOOD GOD DRISCOLL!

It is OK if a wife wants her own credit card separate from her husband. Why is it a sin for her to get a secret credit card and blow money on things she doesn't need, but it wasn't a sin for the man to blow every penny on a car 2 chapters ago? Double standard much? Jezus Krist man!

To the husband in the story's credit, he never mentioned the incident again because he didn't want to shame his wife. the only reason Marky-boy knows about it is because the wife talks about it non stop.

Well, at least the husband tried, theoretically, not to shame her.

Alright, back to repentance. Mark rambles a bit about how Jesus never repented because he never sinned, so we can't learn from him on this. Mark then makes a long list about what repentance is NOT. Let's take a look:

1. About getting caught, but confessing.

What does your spouse not know about you?

So, it's a sin to keep ANY secret from your spouse? Great. Reason #5,321 I never got married. There's just some things I don't want to share.

2. Denying our sin

what sins are in your life that you have simply not accepted as sin that has to be dealt with honestly?

3. diminishing our sin

What have you partially confessed about?

4. Managing our sin

what sins are we trying to keep under control so that no one we respect sees them?

5. blame shifting our sin

What ways have you blamed others for YOUR sin?

6. someone else's sin

Do you bring up someone else's sin, instead of focusing on your own?

7. manipulating God or other people for blessing

Have you ever faked repentance in order to try and manipulate God and or other people?

8. worldly sorrow

See, non christians feel bad about their sin, but they don't see it as an offense to god, and they don't hate their sin for what it does to God and others (bolding mine.)

Here that all you heathens? you can't ever repent, because you don't care about what your sin does to other people!

9. Merely grieving the consequences of your sin, but hating the sin itself

I (Trynn) think this one is pretty self explanatory, and Mark doesn't do a good job of explaining it anyway. It's basically where you hate the fact that your best friend doesn't talk to you anymore because you gossiped about her, rather than the fact that you hurt your friend when you gossiped.

10. Mere confession

you can't just say you're sorry, you have to really change.

so, after that megalist of what repentance ISN'T, are you ready to read about what is? Are you ready to feel excluded because you're not a Christian? Good.Here is Mark's list of what Repentance is:

1. Confession.

Confess before God that you've sinned. Confession includes both mind and mouth.

2. Contrition

When you feel what God feels about your sin. This involves both emotions and expressions. your heart is affected, not just your words.

3. Change

Stop sinning and start worshiping. Change includes your will and your works.

Here that all you heathens? Not only do you have to stop sinning, you have to start worshiping.

He doesn't say in this sentence WHAT I have to worship, however. Can I pick my dog? I love my dog. She's so cute. Here's a picture.

Sorry. I needed emergency dogs, apparently.

And that's it. After his super long list about what Repentance is not, we only have 3 definitions of what it actually IS.

The next section is on forgiveneness, but for sanity's sake I need to save it for another day. Actually, that's a little bit untrue, I'm just running out of vodka.

[jerkit]

Mr. Jerkit and I only truly fight a few times per year. We definitely disagree on the regular but it isn't really fighting. We also might have a very quick squabble over something silly more frequently than we fight. Fighting all the time sounds abnormal.

I think "fighting to the glory of god" means fighting in a way that is productive, helpful, and loving. But that's just a guess.

[louisa05]

Mr. Jerkit and I only truly fight a few times per year. We definitely disagree on the regular but it isn't really fighting. We also might have a very quick squabble over something silly more frequently than we fight. Fighting all the time sounds abnormal.

I think "fighting to the glory of god" means fighting in a way that is productive, helpful, and loving. But that's just a guess.

We are the same. In five years, we've had maybe three true fights. We don't always agree, but we let it go or compromise like grown ups. I find it odd that all the evangelicals and fundies I know talk about constantly fighting. They are also the people I know who talk about marriage being "hard" and so much "work" and how it is supposed to "test you" and "make you better". There is definitely some notion within certain brands of Christianity that marriage is just downright unpleasant and something to be endured.

In terms of finances, we have separate checking accounts and separate credit cards. We were both over 30 when we got married with established finances and didn't really merge them. We have one shared credit card and a shared savings account. The rest is separate. And a few helpful evangelical friends have informed me that this will ruin my marriage. Five years later, we're just fine, thank you.

Trynn, your mother may have her name on some bills for the sake of her personal credit rating.

[DGayle]

He had sex with his wife. I don't know how Mark knew that.

Probably because fundies are some of the most-sex-boasting people out there.

My husband's step-dad's family is out family just as much as his biological father. Nothing extended about it. Family isn't zero-sum.

She had put a mom's need for convenience over being a wife. She wept.

God damn you, Mark. How about the convenience of shorter hair means more time for her to serve her lordship? No wonder she didn't feel loved.

And what the hell? If they had JUST STARTED dating, there may not have been an exclusivity agreement. I did the same thing as Grace. Just started dating my husband, it was casual, had sex with an ex, now-hubs and I talked about being exclusive, never saw another man naked again. I did make out with a girl, but my husband and her boyfriend thought it was sahweeeeet, because, you know, stright guys like that stuff. :)

Well, not to see if Friends With Benefits is there yet.

[DGayle]

Although his wife should not have been contacting her mother daily

Depends. Is this replacing conversation with her husband? I talk to my mother-in-law almost every day while my husband's at work. It doesn't replace talking to him, and is really just a bonus to my days. Talking to her adds something and doesn't replace or take away from anything else.

Sadly, it sounds like Grace talked to her mom so much because she needed the support.