It's Mostly About Staying At Home - Botkins

[DefraudedByPlaid]

Did...did the Botkins really reference Betty Friedan? Mind. Blown.

Also, I will mock their silly ideas about college all day long, and put my college-educated earnings against any home-based business earnings any time.

However, it does sound like they're...waking up, maybe? I wonder how Daddy Botkin feels about this newfound lack of deference to the wisdom of the father.

Thank you, Columbia, for the synopsis!

But would Daddy Botkin have allowed it to go out under the family auspices if he wasn't fully in support? Or are the Botkin women more in control of their own contributions to the family biz than has been supposed?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

If daddy wants his daughter to go to a real college and get a job outside the home, does she obey him or find an older couple to mentor her in the ways of the world? Since women are not supposed to usurp the authority of Men, specifically daddy, how can they disobey him and go find these old couples that will help them?

Every so often you can find a post about this from a helpmeet's POV. Basically a woman got sucked into fundiedom and is super-enamoured of the whole "you follow your husband, he leads, be submissive, homeschool" lifestyle, only to find out that Husband isn't actually so into it (at least the lifestyle part) and his commands for his wife are "go out and get a job, we need the money, and we'll send the kids to public school."

It kinda lays bare in some ways the problem with the whole "if your dictator just happens to want you to do what you already want to do, it's awesome, and we just won't consider any other scenarios" candy-coating of the lifestyle.

Also, I will mock their silly ideas about college all day long, and put my college-educated earnings against any home-based business earnings any time.

I know, right?

They're seriously thinking that a home-based business of the sort we see fundies peddling all the time is going to be better than an actual steady paid gig? Particularly the sorts of jobs you can get with a good solid college degree in certain "non-womanly" fields? Craziness.

If you had a home business before, already, and it was an actual competitive home business (that presumably your husband was also involved with) and it's to the point where you might even hire people into it, that's one thing, but the usual "sewing a few things from my house" is not quite it.

[Sundaymorning]

This whole "working from home" or "home business" is such a sham from the fundie world.

Often, if fundies are asked how a stay-at-home mother with no education but eleventy kids could ever provide for her family in case her husband died or became sick, the answer is often: well, just work from home or have a home business.

I know lots of people who would prefer working from home or having a home business. For various reasons. And most of them aren't successful. Even nowdays, with all this technology, home businesses rarely truly work.

Maybe, in a few years, companies will actually be more willing to let people work from home, but then, you still would have to be employed by a company and they usually require some kind of education.

[dairyfreelife]

Definitely.

Many years ago someone on FJ posted about how arranged the marriages within fundie-dom look. But since they're never officially touted as "arranged" the girl could, in theory say "no I don't want to marry him," and get out of her marriage. But no one ever does because what if that's the only chance you get, and besides how horrid would that look to your community? What good Christian girl turns down the first marriage she gets? And then when she comes back to her parents and says "you forced me into this horrid marriage," they can turn right around and say "no, you could have backed out at any time."

I'm not entirely certain why, but the Botkinettes' description of girls coming to them asking for details on how to live out the "applications" of SAHD-hood as opposed to the "principles" brought that to mind. When everyone is obsessed with your applications, and judges the validity of your Christianity by them then of course you're going to be walking on egg shells trying to get them right. And then, when everything starts to fall apart because of DPIATR and you look to your glorious leaders for help, they say "well no, we never told you that you had to do it that way in the first place."

In Christian fundie world, saying no is probably hard because it is not intense on doing what daddy says. My bf's sister had an 'arranged marriage', but she had a lot of say in the decision of which man she liked and had full power to say no at any point during the process.

[Sundaymorning]

In Christian fundie world, saying no is probably hard because it is not intense on doing what daddy says. My bf's sister had an 'arranged marriage', but she had a lot of say in the decision of which man she liked and had full power to say no at any point during the process.

Well, I think it depends on the time the girl says no and her relationship with her father. If her father has an ounce of respect for his daughter and a bit of decency, he will ask her opinion if a man approaches him to ask for a courtship. If she says no, he can get the man down easily and maybe offer some other reason. This can be done quite discreetly and no one has to lose his face.

By the time however, that a courtship becomes "official" and the other community members aka cult people are in the know, breaking off a courtship is probably really difficult.

It's very scary how these courtship and fundie rules basically force young people (especially girls) to chose their partner for life! (divorce is not an option after all) in such a short time and with such little information about the other person. Cause it's not like you really know someone after a few meetings with many other people around. Even in the courtship, the couple can never be alone and really get to know each other.

[FoxyMoxie]

Honestly, it's time Elizabeth and Anna-Sophia get laid.

Ummm why? That's a really shitty comment to make. I don't like the Botkinettes but saying that there's something wrong with them because they haven't had sex is really gross. Nobody is obliged to have sex just because society says they should do so. There are many happy asexual and/or celibate people, and from the sounds of things I think A-S and E are rather enjoying their freedom.

[FoxyMoxie]

I agree with them that American culture's models of ministry, work and education are far too restrictive and narrow - and college costing $60k is obscene - but they only seem to think it's restrictive when it comes to women. Somehow those models are just fine for men.

Section 8 is something I would largely agree with (though the list of fruit God wants from women seems a bit narrow to me - what does washing the feet of the saints mean in this context?) but it's nothing that's not been said by plenty of Catholics....

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I agree with them that American culture's models of ministry, work and education are far too restrictive and narrow - and college costing $60k is obscene - but they only seem to think it's restrictive when it comes to women. Somehow those models are just fine for men.

Section 8 is something I would largely agree with (though the list of fruit God wants from women seems a bit narrow to me - what does washing the feet of the saints mean in this context?) but it's nothing that's not been said by plenty of Catholics....

Actually, I'm pretty sure they don't recommend college for men either. They encourage entrepreneurship/self-employment.

[FoxyMoxie]

Actually, I'm pretty sure they don't recommend college for men either. They encourage entrepreneurship/self-employment.

Sorry, I don't just mean college, I mean employment/education generally. I realise they're speaking to women, but they're not suggesting that young people in general should look at employment/education generally in a different way. Men are still going to be expected to work outside the home in a suitable job, which for men includes being a pastor or other church worker.

[FloraKitty35]

The Botkin sisters fundie doms equivalent of Miss Havisham.

[FoxyMoxie]

But they're not. I mean Lord knows I'm really not a fan of the Botkins - I'm a socialist feminist so uh no - but even within fundiedom, they're hardly in the same league as Sarah Maxwell or even Sarah Mally. They're stylish, attractive women with a successful business and (one guesses) a full and active life. I'm not sure how that makes them the equivalent of Miss Havisham - and in any case, I don't see how it benefits anti-fundies to use misogynistic ideas like that of Miss Havisham against them.

I strongly suspect that they give lip service to the idea of marriage and realise how much less power and opportunity they'd have if they married. They'd get to do talks at conferences for married women - those are ten a penny in Christian circles, there's no shortage of pastors' wives. The older single SAHD is a much more niche market, and one that's not going to go away for fundies.

Before the handslapping sets in, the Botkinettes are not my pet fundies and I'm not making allowances for them. I wholly disagree with their theology and hope their dominionist cause fails. But using misogynistic arguments against them only fuels the idea that feminism is ultimately harmful to women.

[RosyDaisy]

They are trying way too hard to justify being single. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ben single. Who knows, they may find their future spouse later in life.

[Sundaymorning]

But they're not. I mean Lord knows I'm really not a fan of the Botkins - I'm a socialist feminist so uh no - but even within fundiedom, they're hardly in the same league as Sarah Maxwell or even Sarah Mally. They're stylish, attractive women with a successful business and (one guesses) a full and active life. I'm not sure how that makes them the equivalent of Miss Havisham - and in any case, I don't see how it benefits anti-fundies to use misogynistic ideas like that of Miss Havisham against them.

I strongly suspect that they give lip service to the idea of marriage and realise how much less power and opportunity they'd have if they married. They'd get to do talks at conferences for married women - those are ten a penny in Christian circles, there's no shortage of pastors' wives. The older single SAHD is a much more niche market, and one that's not going to go away for fundies.

Before the handslapping sets in, the Botkinettes are not my pet fundies and I'm not making allowances for them. I wholly disagree with their theology and hope their dominionist cause fails. But using misogynistic arguments against them only fuels the idea that feminism is ultimately harmful to women.

I think so too. They do live a very comfortable life compared with most fundie women who are busy all day and night with a household and eleventy kids all while being pregnant half of the time.

I wouldn't be surprised if they never got married. And if they do, I doubt they will be able to "submit" completely to their husband, they spent way too much time telling other people what to do and generally seem to be quite bossy to me.

I consider them as "career women" who ironically made a career out of promoting how women shouldn't have a career.

[treemom]

We do have some evidence in the past that AS at least was not (and likely is still not) happy with her current situation.

I also don't usually believe people when they are trying to sell some shtick. So, no I am not convinced that these two are happy. Could someone be happy And single? Well of course. But I actually don't think AS is, and I have doubts about E as well.