It's Mostly About Staying At Home - Botkins

[Columbia]

http://westernconservatory.com/products ... aying-home

In the name of damage control, the Botkinettes recently posted a talk they gave that addresses the SADH movement and a lot of the pitfalls they find in it. I've listened to the thing at least half a dozen times, and finally sat down to wade through it. There are absolutely no apologies in this talk. Nothing about how they're sorry they taught such dangerous ideas, or they're sorry they didn't speak up when their words were being stretched too far, not even they "I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant" non-apology.

Anna-Sophia, I believe, starts the talk off by referencing a writing she saw from a girl who used to be a stay-at-home daughter who did “all the right things, wore all the right things… avoided all the right things†and then decided she was being a legalist and “dumped it all†and started asking whether or not this was what God wanted for her, and if she knew why she was doing it, or if she had simply been following a trend “And I know that there’s [sic] a lot of people right now, especially after the events of last year, who are probably feeling a little bit shaken about some of the things they were putting their faith in, who are probably asking similar questions and wondering how much of what I believe came from God’s word, and how much of it came from men?†(Can anyone with better interwebz skills than me figure out when and where the Botkinettes gave this talk and the “Good Girls and Problem Guys†talk? I really want to know what other kind of damage control was preached there.)

A-S thinks it’s great to take a step back and restudy the scriptures often. (Lamentations 3:40)

(Elizabeth, I think) “It’s really good to question and test everything that we believe, and make sure it’s true… When we see that we’re off on something, we need to be sure we return to the right Lord, not humanism, not pragmatism, not feminism, not a new peer group, not a new Christian leader, not a new trend, not a new movement.†She says that sometimes when we examine our ways we find out that we weren’t in line with God’s designs, and we need to readjust.

(A-S) “When we say ‘it’s not about staying at home,’ what is the ‘it’s’ that we’re talking about? Is it the stay at home daughter movement? No. Is it a niche movement of modern, white, middle-class, American girls with traditional families? No (I wonder what Ms. Baucham thought of that.) We’re talking about God’s timeless principles for all girls in all countries at all times.â€

She mentions that they don’t like the term “stay at home daughter movement†and claim it was coined by their critics, not by them. “For one thing, I think the acronym is really sad.†I think she’s trying to make a pun here. I didn’t hear anyone laugh. For another, the kind of womanhood we’re talking about is not primarily about staying at home, and for another, it’s actually not about a movement. We do not want a movement… we want Biblical faithfulness.â€

This talk is about taking a new look at principles that should be the backbone of the vision for single young womanhood. (I wonder what talk they’d give for single not-so-young womanhood.) They give us 10 things that the Biblical vision for young womanhood is not about.

[Columbia]

1. It’s not about narrow applications, it’s about principles

- A-S gives us a few examples:

Principle: a woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man

Application: the woman should wear pink and ruffles

Principle: I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly

Application: women should wear tiered floor length calico prairie skirts or denim jumpers

Principle: men and women were given different roles

Application: boys take out the trash, girls wash the dishes

A-S says there’s nothing wrong with the people applying the principles to themselves in these ways, but there’s something wrong in assuming these principles apply to everyone. Principles are non-negotiable, applications are very negotiable and can look different in different families. It’s hard to figure out how to apply the principles to yourself, it’s much easier to follow someone else’s prescribed applications. A-S says that in the 10 years she and E have been teaching this message the main questions they receive are about applications, not principles: “How long a skirt? Are pants okay? Is it feminine to use power tools? Is a girl not staying at home if she’s helping out in the family restaurant?â€

People want others to tell them how to live, until they don’t, then they burn out on their favorite rules, and jump ship and complain about being legalistic.

I’m going to jump in here and say that when your applications of the principles can cause people to wonder whether or not you’re saved, it makes perfect sense to obsess over them. Also, this seems like a really easy way to avoid all the folks who have perfectly legitimate reasons to bail from the SAHD movement (like Lourdes.)

2. It’s not about all the things we don’t do, it’s about all the things God does want us to do. (Elizabeth)

- “We don’t want our mission statement to be: ‘we’re the girls who don’t get jobs, don’t go to college, don’t lead or speak in church, don’t wear immodest clothes, don’t date, don’t discontent, and don’t leave.’†(Don’t discontent? What?)

- “We don’t want our theme song to be ‘We are the daughters who don’t do anything.’†(Woah, the Botkinettes watch Veggie Tales?)

- E says that when she first did a study through the Bible of all God’s commands to women when she was 15 she was more struck by the negative commands than the positive, but she thinks that’s just because she wanted to do a lot of stuff she wasn’t supposed to.

- E and A-S study the Bible’s commands to women every few years, and E says she’s becoming more struck with the positive commands for women (“strengthening our arms, working with our hands, bringing in a profit, reaching out to the poor and needy, opening our mouths in wisdom, not being silent, washing the feet of the saints, laboring with other believers in the Gospel, being full of good works, relieving the afflicted, lodging strangers, slaying the enemies of the Lordâ€)

-Biblical women are supposed to do a lot of things because we serve a God with a big view of women (she gives the story of Jael as an example), but because we get hung up on the things we shouldn’t do we don’t figure out the things we could or should do and make a plan to carry them out.

-Do we even know why we don’t do the things we don’t do?

- Example: working jobs outside the home

- Making money and working are not problems, doing anything outside the home is not a problem, the Proverbs 31 woman is all over the place, (but primarily based at home), helping people outside the family is not a problem, doing work that’s not exclusively domestic is not a problem,

- We need to be careful of some very specific, narrow approaches to work that violate principles, like a woman making her career and personal affluence of more importance than her husband and family.

- There’s a lot of room for “creative approaches to economic productivity†in the home, and E points out that the one chapter in the Bible dedicated to describing the ideal woman mostly describes her business skills.

-Example: what questions and concerns should we have about college?

- We shouldn’t be opposed to education, learning about “the world’s philosophies,†having our faith or views challenged, “to higher academics, advanced training opportunities, apprenticeships, distance learning (CollegeMinus!), local classes, learning things from people who aren’t our parents. I don’t believe we could make a case that there’s a problem with any of these things.†Boy these girls like lists. Also, they must not be familiar with the more crazy aspects of the interwebs (that poor, crazy woman educating her kids using only the Bible would definitely be able to make a case against all of these.)

- We should have a problem with “the idea that this one very narrow institution-based model of education is the only one, or the best one.†E points out that women going to college will spend a great deal of time and money that they will probably never recoup in their years of work after, “for an experience of being immersed in a defiling and artificial non-real world environment for years on end to get a level of education that’s being proven not as high as it should be, and for an accreditation that’s being proven increasingly ineffective in helping people find jobs.â€

- E mentions that “getting jobs†is probably not what her listeners are interested in being trained for and mentions being prepared for the worst-case scenario: “having to support half a dozen children on your own.†In that situation a woman will want a creative, home-based way of making money instead of plugging into a 9 to 5 job. “And I actually bet that sixty-plus thousand dollars that we didn’t spend on college tuition wouldn’t hurt to have on hand then, either.†How does E think people pay for college? Does she think we all just whipped a wad of Benjamins out of our pocket on day one? Do she and A-S have $60,000 each holed up somewhere?

- Higher education and training are not the problem, but E thinks we can do better in planning for the future, and if we’d focus on trying to find the best ways instead of trying to justify doing it one of the less effective ways, we would probably find one of the better ways.

- “And in case you’re wondering, we don’t think going to college is a sin. And we never have.â€

-Example: limitations on ministry

- E says that women are not to speak or exercise authority over men in the church

- The women in the New Testament church are involved in discipleship and evangelism, and “co-laboring†with the men. No mention of Phoebe the deaconess.

- The problem is that we’re so used to the specific models of ministry, work, or education our culture is used to that we’re unable to let go of specific approaches without letting go of the whole package.

- E jokes about girls complaining that if they wouldn’t get a job or go to college, what are they supposed to do, embroider samplers for ten years? But if you’re trying to figure out the “very best ways†to do all you’re supposed to do you won’t feel restricted on account of a few narrow things you’ve decided you’re not going to do.

[Columbia]

3. It’s not about applying only the pink verses, it’s about applying the whole counsel of God. (Anna-Sophia)

- When God gives specific instructions to a specific demographic we should pay attention, but we shouldn’t forget that our instruction manual is the whole counsel of God. These aren’t the only verses for women to obey.

- Women shouldn’t see wearing modest clothing, or staying at home, or being submissive, or staying pure as the only thing they’re supposed to do with their lives.

- Examples: study apologetics, encourage people, show hospitality to strangers, give cheerfully, evangelize and make disciples

- Are we obeying our parents and loving the home but how good are we at obeying truth?

-These aren’t optional “good daughter†activities. If we aren’t doing these things we’re being disobedient and have no right to claim the title “Biblical daughter.â€

4. It’s not about being “against feminism,†it’s about embracing the view of womanhood we see in the Bible and rejecting every single other view that doesn’t line up with that. (Elizabeth)

- Letting our vision of womanhood be defined in reference to or reaction to feminism, is a kind of following men instead of God.

- We’ve lost some very important concepts that the feminists claimed but were actually God’s idea first, and incorporated some very unhealthy things that the feminists had a problem with for very good reason.

- What is it about feminism that we should have a problem with? “The denial that a woman has to answer to God or to man, that what she says goes, and that she comes first.†Rejection of authority, or that “the woman was created to help the man in the dominion mission in a generally supportive role.â€

- A girl who is “sitting at home doing nothing, or griping about the work her family wants her to do, or insists that her doilies and bran muffins come first is being feministic as well as a girl who is chasing a career on Wall Street.â€

- Something that wasn’t helpful for the stay-at-home-daughter movement (I thought you didn’t like that term) was the idea that we forgot what femininity is, so we need to go back to femininity before feminism. There are good pictures of femininity in history, but there are some very destructive ones, and two of the worst came immediately before first wave and second wave feminism: the Victorian “angel in the home†and the 1950s housewife.

- The tendency to copy these eras has cause a lot of confusion, because their attitude towards women’s work, men’s work, and the purpose of the home created a romantic pretty culture of femininity that had nothing to do with Biblical femininity. It removed women from her context “in the family economy and in the dominion mandate†and had more to do with frivolous activities than with being the man’s assistant in taking dominion of the earth. (I think I’m going to start taking shots each time one of them says “dominion.†They sure like that word.)

- Betty Freidan pointed out a lot of problems with “women spending all day puttering around an empty house.†And when she asked “is this all†she was asking the right question, but she answered it the wrong way.

- We should not be afraid to ask “is what I’m doing right now all God wants me to do?†We have to make sure we’re going to the right place for the answer.

[Columbia]

5. It’s not about staying at home, it’s about how to best apply in your life the principles of authority, protection, and the importance of family and home in a woman’s life. (I’ve lost track of who’s speaking now.)

- Principles: An unmarried woman is supposed to be under authority, usually her parents’. The classic Numbers 30 line about a father being able to annul a pledge made by his daughter is trotted out. When the Bible talks about daughters marrying the language is that the daughter is “given in marriage.†Possible applications of the principle: the daughter is under the authority of her biological father, widowed or divorced mother, uncle, under the authority of someone her father transferred her to (I expected they would say that this is her husband, but they didn’t elaborate on this statement.)

- A daughter who is living in her father’s house but refuses to let him have any say in her life is not a good application.

- Does “under authority†indicate proximity? That is a Biblical pattern, but not necessarily a mandate. For many girls it’s the best, wisest way to apply this principle, but not the only way.

- Principle: Protection A father has a specific responsibility for his daughter’s chastity and safety. Deuteronomy 22: a daughter who was accused of not being a virgin on her wedding night had to have her father vouch for her. If he could not provide evidence she was stoned on his doorstep. Exodus 22: when a girl is seduced the father must see that justice is done for his daughter by deciding if the seducer can marry her and by securing her monetary restitution. What did her father have to do with something as personal as her purity? God has placed the daughter under the father’s care, and he was responsible for knowing that the purity of the bride had been preserved for her husband.

- Bad ways for fathers to apply this principle: never letting the daughter leave the house, sending a daughter to live wherever she wants, giving her a purity ring but not paying attention to who her friends are or how she spends her time

- Good ways: fathers arming their daughters with wisdom and weapons to deal with all kinds of situations, but also staying very involved in her life and her friendships and how she’s doing (“and her mother too, of course†Poor mothers. They have no role in Botkinland.)

- “I believe a girl living in her father’s household is usually the very best, most effective way to follow this principle.†But if he’s a criminal, physical threat that’s probably bad. If your father is dangerous, find a Godly older couple who will provide protection and counsel.

- Principle: God sees being in a family as better than being solitary. This is true for men as well as women. A young woman is in a much better place in a family than on her own, though it doesn’t necessarily have to be her biological family.

-Principle: The Scripture talks about the home as a woman’s primary base of operations. Biblically the wife is supposed to build the house, and not the daughter. “Scripture doesn’t say how much of a daughter’s life or time has to be in the home.†A daughter should love the home and family and see it as the blessing God sees it. If she wants to be a wife she should make herself ready for all the duties of home management, and being at home would be a good way to apply this, but not the only way.

- (Elizabeth) Do all these principles and patterns add up to one application that looks the same for every girl? They don’t think so. There’s freedom for a girl to serve in a family that’s not her biological family (just be careful who you nanny for!), to get focused training in a way that goes along with and compliments these principles, to be sent out like an arrow by her father to serve in a situation where these would be in place. A father who tossed his daughter out or is dangerous to live with, or who couldn’t care less where she lives or what she does has abdicated his authority, and it would be right for a girl to find more legitimate protection.

- Fundamental principles regardless of situation: you need to be under authority, your safety needs to be found within the authority God has delegated to protect you, you need to see being in a family as a blessing, you need to understand the importance and power of the home and all it means in a Godly woman’s identity

- Home does not mean house. It could be your father’s workshop or your mother’s market garden or the family restaurant. Anything inside the family’s domain.

-The modern American home is not what it’s supposed to be. The Industrial Revolution split men’s and women’s spheres as men left home to work in factories and women adjusted to having the “house†sphere. Men and women weren’t a team anymore, and all the industry, ministry, and education that occurred in the home were removed. Women’s role in the home changed from being their husbands’ helpers to being the Victorian “angel in the home.†For a woman to be based in the home made sense when the home was where everything happened. In a post industrial society homes are centers of nothing but housework and entertainment. Daughters staying at home doesn’t make sense unless she’s creative and willing to try to make her home become what a home is supposed to be and bring the right function back into the home. Here Elizabeth mentions a talk they gave a few years ago called “Developing Your Gifts Within the Family Economy.â€

6. It’s not about hiding from the world but engaging the world.

- One of the main reasons a daughter should be at home is because it’s one of the best places to engage the world. No daughter should be “holed up at home away from the battlefield.†Poor applications of a woman’s need to be under authority or guardianship cannot eclipse the principle that we need to go out into the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation and make disciples.

- There are tons of evangelism and ministry opportunities in the home, but we can’t adopt the idea that simply being in the home is preaching the gospel, or that pursuing a counter-cultural lifestyle is being light. We need to be careful that we don’t let a statement like “that might endauger my purity†or “I don’t think it would be right for a girl to do that†cover a selfish, unwilling, or unloving heart.

- There are many kinds of dangers in the world, and Jesus doesn’t want us to hide from them but to confront them (“Be as wise as serpents and as innocent as dovesâ€.) Innocence is mentioned as something that would help us fight, not as a liability, because the things that make the world dangerous are the things that would entice our hearts. (Worldly lusts, idle chatter, etc.) We can chase all these things at home on the internet.

[Columbia]

7. It’s not about making your dad the center of your world, it’s about making God the center of your world and understanding both your father’s and mother’s proper place in your life after that.

- Frequently accused that girls are putting their fathers in the place of God and seeking to build the kingdoms of men rather than of God.

- Our fathers are not mediators between us and Christ, they should not speak as substitutes for God, their agenda should not be a substitute for God’s interests. “Saying otherwise could be blasphemous, which is why we never have.â€

- Bringing this point up because it can be a temptation for girls to find something that is easier to obey or please than God. It’s easier to seek a person’s will than God’s will. It’s easier to dismiss the feeling that God might be calling us to do something differently be saying that our dads are fine with everything we’re doing. But our dads aren’t going to stand before us on judgment day as our advocates. We have to give an account of everything we did and whether we obeyed.

- “If you love me you will keep my commandments.†One of the commandments is to obey your parents. Honoring them and embracing their guidance is one of the ways we live out our obedience to God. We accept God’s will for our lives by accepting the parents he has chosen for us and we show honor to God by honoring them.

- Doesn’t mean unquestioning obedience. (Quote from Rushdoony reinforcing this.) To render unquestioning obedience is a sin. If parents have some convictions or rules that violate scripture you have a right to entreat your parents and bring scripture to them.

8. It’s not about preparing for marriage or waiting for marriage, it’s about living abundantly the life God has given you now.

- The idea that marriage and motherhood is a woman’s highest calling is wrong.

- Being a wife and mother is a high calling and should be praised and upheld, but it’s not a higher calling than being an unmarried woman who is anxious about the things of the Lord (1 Corinthians 7)

- Marriage is good but the single state can allow us to have a more undivided focus on the things of the Lord. One is not better than the other, but we need to understand the different challenges and opportunities that come with both and make the most of whatever gift the Lord has given us.

- Those spending years being anxious about being single are wasting an important gift.

- A-S has a new perspective on married life now that three of her brothers are married. Her sisters-in-law would admit that they have less time for ministry now that they have homes and children to take care of.

- A-S admits that the reason she’s giving this talk and not at home taking care of children herself is because she’s single and has freedom. While she has this freedom she’s going to use it and be grateful for it. She’s not avoiding marriage because she likes her freedom. When she meets a man with whom she knows she can bare more fruit married than unmarried then she’ll be happy to get married.

- We should desire and work towards a fruitful life as opposed to a married life. Children are not the only fruit that God counts from women. (good works, showing hospitality, caring for the afflicted, washed the feet of the saints) These are things we can be doing especially well right now.

9. It’s not about exclusively serving your family, it’s about serving a lot of people

- They often get questions like: “Can a girl’s gifts and interests be invested in anything other than her family? Can she do anything on her own?â€

- Principle: our duty to follow and serve Christ is above our duty to follow and serve our family. We should honor our parents, but our ultimate marching orders come from a higher commander. A girl also has duties to her church family.

- The family should be all about reaching out. The family institution is given the duty to care for the widow and the orphan. One of the best ways a daughter can serve in the kingdom is by helping to strengthen and mobilize a powerful family unit. Pursuit of a skill not already in the family can give it more branches and outlets. The family doesn’t have to be about one thing. The Botkins started as a film making family and have developed book writing, publishing, film score producing, audio book producing, and web design branches.

- The Proverbs 31 women spearheaded several family enterprises, but she’s not an independent career woman leaving her family and husband behind.

- A woman can’t do everything, and we need to be careful and deliberate about how we prioritize and organize our time. There will be a season in our lives when holding things together is all we have time for, the Botkinettes admit they’ve had seasons like that.

[Columbia]

10. It’s not about legalism, Phariseeism, earning our way to heaven, or being a better Christian girl than everybody else. It’s about becoming like Christ.

- As much as we might wish, God’s plan for women isn’t a system or a formula.

- There are two ways to approach God’s instruction: as God’s children wanting to please their father, or as Pharisees.

- What did the Pharisees do that made Christ so angry? They weren’t trying too hard to please God, and they didn’t care too much about God’s commands. They preferred little ceremonial sacrifices to the weighty commandments of the law. They like telling people to do something while they don’t do it. They care about how holy everyone thinks they are. They don’t really care about pleasing God.

- Christ told his disciples to beware of hypocrisy. A girl could be checking all the right boxes (modesty, chastity, domesticity) and still be full of hypocrisy and lawlessness like the Pharisees.

- If we are being Pharisees, how do we stop? A lot of the people who leave the SAHD movement say they were doing all the right things, but then realized they weren’t doing the for the right reasons, so then they stopped doing all the right things. “I stopped doing all the right things.. and spent time in the world to get all those bad legalism toxins out of me, and I stopped copying all the right people, which is why I now look exactly like Britney Spears, because I realized that copying people and making idols out of them is bad!†But until this girl repents of idolatry she will keep moving from one idolatry and one legalism to another.

- Luke 18, the rich young ruler who wants to be saved. When the ruler tells Jesus he’s “done all the right things†Jesus doesn’t tell him to stop doing all the right things because he’s a legalist. Jesus tells him to give up every earthly thing he cares about and follow him. The young man was crushed because he thought he wanted eternal life, but he realized he wasn’t willing to do that.

- Holiness is hard because it’s easy to do all the external things, but it’s hard to repent and live entirely for someone that’s not ourselves. If we’re willing to do all the right things, but we can’t let go of inner sin and self interest and how we look to everyone around us, we need to ask God to change our hearts daily.

- We need to pursue a womanhood that is all about serving, pleasing, and losing our lives for God.

[BrownieMomma]

I always always wonder how every single Christian is supposed to study the Scriptures to know if some preacher or minister has "got it right."

Who has the authority to determine what the Scriptures mean? Why would it be up to every single individual to be responsible to correctly interpret Scripture?

[socalrules]

If daddy wants his daughter to go to a real college and get a job outside the home, does she obey him or find an older couple to mentor her in the ways of the world? Since women are not supposed to usurp the authority of Men, specifically daddy, how can they disobey him and go find these old couples that will help them?

[gustava]

Honestly, it's time Elizabeth and Anna-Sophia get laid.

[docmom]

Honestly, it's time Elizabeth and Anna-Sophia get laid.

i kinda think they feel that too

[DGayle]

I think they've become discontent with their lives. I never thought I'd see them say that careers are okay, for the very reason we've been saying. Who will support a family if a husband/father dies? I've seen fundies say the church should step in for widows. These girls are saying it's okay for moms to have careers. I wonder if the next step is for them to say it's okay for single girls to have their own lives.

[MamaJunebug]

Holy moley. What's that Scripture about "their many words" being vainly said because the speakers really have nothing to say?!?!?

OP, I so appreciate you giving of your precious time to report on their mishmash. I'll try to read it more closely, soon.

Free Jinger!

Date the Botkinettes!!!

[Columbia]

In their defense (I never thought I'd defend the Botkinettes) they never outright said "there's nothing wrong with having a career" the same way they said "going to college isn't a sin." All their talk about working and making money was based around the notion of a home-based business. Which sounds nice, but honestly, how many people are there out there who have a home-based business that could easily support 7 or 8 kids? Does anyone know of a fundie, either widowed or divorced, who has a decent job run from home that supports her and her parcel of kids? Or what about a young adult who has a promising business? All I can think of is the girl who runs Garlands of Grace, and Olivia over at Fresh Modesty who's going to start selling her skirts soon.

I really think this was a very shrewd move on their part. Nowhere do they admit that their teaching could have been taken out of context, that some of it was dangerous or unhealthy. The whole thing, especially the ending about legalism, is designed to tell these girls who ate up their books that "you're coming at this with the wrong spirit. Try harder." For those who are on the fence it might put the Botkinettes in a better light, but for those who have already swallowed their teaching hook, line, and sinker, I think it only reinforces what they've already been pursuing. The line about "we don't believe going to college is a sin" was particularly smooth. "We're going to tell you all the reasons why going to a brick and mortar institution is a terrible idea, but don't worry, at least you won't go to hell for it."

[DGayle]

It's step in a direction I wouldn't expect them to take.

[Columbia]

The thing that really blew me away was their section on how "actually the feminists had a point." I must have listened to that section 3 or 4 times. I never, ever would have imagined them even coming close to admitting something like that.

[morfydd]

Did...did the Botkins really reference Betty Friedan? Mind. Blown.

Also, I will mock their silly ideas about college all day long, and put my college-educated earnings against any home-based business earnings any time.

However, it does sound like they're...waking up, maybe? I wonder how Daddy Botkin feels about this newfound lack of deference to the wisdom of the father.

Thank you, Columbia, for the synopsis!

[morfydd]

The thing that really blew me away was their section on how "actually the feminists had a point." I must have listened to that section 3 or 4 times. I never, ever would have imagined them even coming close to admitting something like that.

Actually, I can see them reading "The Feminine Mystique' and really having it resonate with them. Friedan wasn't talking to most women; she was really talking to a specific set of women who had been well-educated and given a sense of aspiring to greatness...and then stuck in bourgeois meaninglessness, and that loss of purpose driving them to madness (and Valium).

I read it in the 90s and felt so sorry for those young women of the 60s feeling so stifled, but didn't feel it applied to me, with my expectation of a good career. The Botkins reading it, though? That could be deeply personal for them.

[gustava]

In their defense (I never thought I'd defend the Botkinettes) they never outright said "there's nothing wrong with having a career" the same way they said "going to college isn't a sin." All their talk about working and making money was based around the notion of a home-based business. Which sounds nice, but honestly, how many people are there out there who have a home-based business that could easily support 7 or 8 kids? Does anyone know of a fundie, either widowed or divorced, who has a decent job run from home that supports her and her parcel of kids? Or what about a young adult who has a promising business? All I can think of is the girl who runs Garlands of Grace, and Olivia over at Fresh Modesty who's going to start selling her skirts soon.

I really think this was a very shrewd move on their part. Nowhere do they admit that their teaching could have been taken out of context, that some of it was dangerous or unhealthy. The whole thing, especially the ending about legalism, is designed to tell these girls who ate up their books that "you're coming at this with the wrong spirit. Try harder." For those who are on the fence it might put the Botkinettes in a better light, but for those who have already swallowed their teaching hook, line, and sinker, I think it only reinforces what they've already been pursuing. The line about "we don't believe going to college is a sin" was particularly smooth. "We're going to tell you all the reasons why going to a brick and mortar institution is a terrible idea, but don't worry, at least you won't go to hell for it."

Good reading of the subtext.

[treemom]

This doesn't actually sound different than what they have always been saying. Just repackaged differently and more palatable after the DPIArt thing.

The only difference I actually see if that if your father is not in line with God you can entreat and show scripture or find a new authority

[Columbia]

The only difference I actually see if that if your father is not in line with God you can entreat and show scripture or find a new authority

Before DPIATR I don't think they ever would have denied that, but I also don't think they would have said it out loud. Now they have to say stuff like this so people can't accuse them of setting up an unhealthy, unsafe, controlling system.

[treemom]

Yep, but it ultimately boils down to the same stuff

[Columbia]

Definitely.

Many years ago someone on FJ posted about how arranged the marriages within fundie-dom look. But since they're never officially touted as "arranged" the girl could, in theory say "no I don't want to marry him," and get out of her marriage. But no one ever does because what if that's the only chance you get, and besides how horrid would that look to your community? What good Christian girl turns down the first marriage she gets? And then when she comes back to her parents and says "you forced me into this horrid marriage," they can turn right around and say "no, you could have backed out at any time."

I'm not entirely certain why, but the Botkinettes' description of girls coming to them asking for details on how to live out the "applications" of SAHD-hood as opposed to the "principles" brought that to mind. When everyone is obsessed with your applications, and judges the validity of your Christianity by them then of course you're going to be walking on egg shells trying to get them right. And then, when everything starts to fall apart because of DPIATR and you look to your glorious leaders for help, they say "well no, we never told you that you had to do it that way in the first place."

[Rhetorica]

Right on, Columbia! Plausible deniability. It's nauseating.

[hoipolloi]

Thank you, Columbia. What a load of codswallop to sit through.

The Botkinettes' kinda-sorta agreeing with Friedan is unexpected but it still seems to be so much eyewash.

In other words, the tl;dr version of their 57-minute lecture is: "You've been doing it wrong so don't blame us."

[Marian the Librarian]

Coming late to this thread - it's been that kind of week... :pink-shock:

Columbia, you deserve a large quantity of whatever you enjoy most (organic chocolate? wine? sea salt caramels?) for slogging through these Botkin-produced heaps of Dominionist dung. They were definitely created as damage control, in response to the fall of Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. I'm betting the entire family is still suffering whiplash from the swift backing-away.

Re: when and where these addresses were originally delivered - Tool-o-ween happened in October 2013. I have a reasonably clear memory of reading about these appearances on someone's blog a few months after that; I want to say they happened at a homeschooling conference, or possibly one of those "family economics" conferences spawned by Kevin Swanson and his ilk. I tried doing a little Google-fu last night, but can't find it.

The irony, of course, is that the Botkinettes are staying at home. Still. Anna Sofia is closing in on 30, and Elizabeth is only a couple of years behind. Latest sightings show them doing exciting things like playing dress-up and posing for pictures in WWII reenactments.