Divorce in Liasland?

[HereticHick]

Until these people apologize and admit that what that stand for is dangerous and hurtful cult and have destroyed many lives, they have nothing to say that I want to hear. I don't cut fundies of any variety any slack (except young children). They don't deserve it. Any spiritual or emotional pain they feel, they deserve. They are evil, hateful, misogynistic people. If that makes you angry CnD, the too bad.

If you don't want to hear it, don't listen. Don't participate in the discussion. But don't tell others that they can't ponder/discuss/wonder/theorise/rationally think about about little changes because they aren't momentous enough to appease your all consuming red-hot hatred.

And no, I'm not doing a disclaimer. Feel free to stand on the sidelines and scream all you want. I'm sure that is an extremely effective strategy in your real life.

[samurai_sarah]

If you don't want to hear it, don't listen. Don't participate in the discussion. But don't tell others that they can't ponder/discuss/wonder/theorise/rationally think about about little changes because they aren't momentous enough to appease your all consuming red-hot hatred.

And no, I'm not doing a disclaimer. Feel free to stand on the sidelines and scream all you want. I'm sure that is an extremely effective strategy in your real life.

Where has RosyDaisy told others what we can or cannot discuss?

[tabitha2]

It is be important to remember PC was middle management, a person who made sure orders went smoothly. He certainly never had power to dictate, control, finance or recruit and most certainly was never upper echelon. Would you ask Doug's secretary or the night janitor or jimmy in accounting to apologize for making a living also?

[browncoatslytherin]

It is be important to remember PC was middle management, a person who made sure orders went smoothly. He certainly never had power to dictate, control, finance or recruit and most certainly was never upper echelon. Would you ask Doug's secretary or the night janitor or jimmy in accounting to apologize for making a living also?

not unless they wrote a blog with all the hateful, condemning things that pc&company did, a blog that most certainly influenced vulnerable couples and families to do things they really should not have done.

if they did, then yes, most certainly. if not, then this doesn't apply.

[tabitha2]

If he does not mean it and we have no indication he makes an apology would be dishonest and pointless; It's like a kid being forced to say sorry by his parents or being sorry you were caught doing something wrong not for doing the wrong in first place. Most likely he is concerned about paying the bill now and putting food on the table, not contemplating or feeling shame for his former employment.

[ladyamylynn]

Kim & Perry most certainly promoted the VF brand and its values FAR beyond what the average employee would have done. They promoted the cult and subjected their kids to a whole lot of harmful nonsense, and actively encouraged others to do the same.

Ok, now they're apparently loosening up a bit, wearing jeans, celebrating Halloween, and listening to popular music. I can see how you could look at that and think they really changed, but it doesn't mean much to me. You don't have to look too far to see Perry's actual views on politics, gender roles, and religion haven't changed much.

[browncoatslytherin]

If he does not mean it and we have no indication he makes an apology would be dishonest and pointless; It's like a kid being forced to say sorry by his parents or being sorry you were caught doing something wrong not for doing the wrong in first place.

something has changed for them. what i'd really like is an explanation of how said changes are suddenly okay, how they're reconciling their life compared to what they used to preach. there has to be something in there that made them change their mind, so what is it? if it's just hypocrisy, then ffs, just own up to it. "yeah, we believe this but we practice that, sorry not sorry." :roll: that would at least be better than radio silence, imo.

being silent about change isn't helpful or even healthy, really. life is all about changing and adapting as you go along, and i'll freely own up to any and all changes i've made for myself over the years. i haven't had anyone come to me and say that they followed my advice and are hurt that i no longer follow in the christian faith anymore, but i don't expect that because i had no sphere of influence to speak of. however, they did, via their blog. they made themselves and their beliefs public by their own choice. if those beliefs change, i should think they owe their readers who follow them for their advice and such should be owed some sort of explanation and apology, if such an apology could be mustered. but an explanation at least would be a start.

[tabitha2]

Ok, now they're apparently loosening up a bit, wearing jeans, celebrating Halloween, and listening to popular music. I can see how you could look at that and think they really changed

They pretty much always did this, at least the jeans and music. I don't think they celebrated Halloween the last several years because the lived in BFE with no close neighbors not because they disagreed with it, though Kim admitted she does not care for it. Now they live in a neighborhood it is feasible.

Disclaimer: I am neither a leghumper or apologist. They believe horrid things but if people are going to dog them it should be accurate. Same goes for Duggars, Maxwells and all of these people.

[Georgiana]

Zsu actually removed her posts about male doctors not seeing a woman's nether regions?

I searched for them back when she was getting questioned about it after Boaz's birth, and I couldn't find anything. It used to be pretty easy: just google Zsuzsanna Anderson and pervert and it would bring up all the OB/GYN posts. The only remnant that I can find is this beauty that she seems to have missed from a Q&A back in 12:

My question is - what if you have an emergency during labor (I sincerely hope you won't) and have to be transported to the hospital? There is a good chance that either one or both of the paramedics that transport you will be male. You know that sometimes paramedics end up delivering babies that arrive rather quickly. Do you consider these men perverts? Or, how about an anesthesiologist at a hospital? Let's say that you have to have an emergent C-section (again, I really hope not) and are fortunate enough to have a women OB and women nurses deliver the baby. There is also a chance that the anesthesiologist could be a male. How would you deal with that? Obviously this man is not an obstetrician/gynecologist, but he must be in attendance while you are being delivered. Is he also a pervert in your mind.

I do not believe that receiving medical care in a life-and-death situation is wrong, no matter the gender of the responding physician. The law and commandments were given to protect us.

That being said, our society should have enough decency and propriety to have members of the same gender respond to medical emergencies whenever possible.

Every male OB is a pervert because they see thousands of healthy, "normal" women for "well woman" visits. It is impossible not to be affected by that, just as no man can look at pornography daily and not be affected. A trauma patient is very different in appearance from what would be displayed in dirty magazines.

[ladyamylynn]

They pretty much always did this, at least the jeans and music. I don't think they celebrated Halloween the last several years because the lived in BFE with no close neighbors not because they disagreed with it, though Kim admitted she does not care for it. Now they live in a neighborhood it is feasible.

Disclaimer: I am neither a leghumper or apologist. They believe horrid things but if people are going to dog them it should be accurate. Same goes for Duggars, Maxwells and all of these people.

Fair enough. I think it's the glaring difference between what they promoted on their lucrative blog and certain aspects of their actual beliefs that bother me the most. Like "Hey, God wants you to have as many kids as possible no matter what and then stack them on Costco shelves" isn't the kind of thing you should be able to sweep under the rug. Kim and Perry neglected their kids and bragged about it on a blog that made them money.

[Marian the Librarian]

FWIW (and it may not be worth much), I have a very clear memory of Perry making some pretty snarky anti-Doug/VF comments on his Facebook page in the first few months post-Tool-o-Ween. Trouble is, I can't find them now, and I never took screen shots. But I know I saw them.

Perhaps another FJ-er with superior Facebook-fu skills can unearth something.

[lilith]

FWIW (and it may not be worth much), I have a very clear memory of Perry making some pretty snarky anti-Doug/VF comments on his Facebook page in the first few months post-Tool-o-Ween. Trouble is, I can't find them now, and I never took screen shots. But I know I saw them.

Perhaps another FJ-er with superior Facebook-fu skills can unearth something.

I can't find them either, but Perry was most definitely playing both sides in the early days of the demise of VF. He was posting slightly snarky comments on pages of those criticising DP but also "liking" Doug's Facebook and Instagram posts and posting friendly comments.

To those saying that Perry was just a warehouse manager and thus shouldn't be held accountable for VF theology, he was never just a disinterested employee. He (in his short lived blog and in social media) and especially Kim constantly endorsed and promoted Vision Forum and all its products and offshoots. They weren't employees paying lip service to the agenda of their employers, they were enthusiastic promoters. Kim's blog used to have a pretty large readership and was one of the early popular QF blogs - she influenced many women. The kids used to go to work with Perry quite regularly and they ranted about what a great wholesome family focused workplace it was while the teens worked for free or for some old product that they'd then try to sell on the blog.

While she now says that they always wore pants at home Kim once wrote a few posts about switching to skirts only and how close to God and Perry it made her feel. She's always been an extremely vigorous supporter of patriarchy and the submission of wives and daughters to their husband/father - I actually suspect that she's following Perry down this more permissive path because she sees it as her wifely duty, not cause she personally believes that it's the best direction for her family.

I'm glad that they seem, at least on the surface, to be loosening up, especially for the sake of all those teenage girls. But they were public enough that them doing so without a word and after wiping the blog archives at an extremely opportune time is snarkworthy.

[tabitha2]

Deanna was getting money from somewhere because Kim said she was paying her sisters to do her chores and then went thirds on a car so they had to have paid her-They certainly did not have money to give and they did not believe in handing out money to kids anyway.

[RosyDaisy]

Where has RosyDaisy told others what we can or cannot discuss?

My post was directed at fundies and CnD for being wishy washy. I'm not telling anybody to shut up. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

[Jess]

I don't like her but I don't think she is hiding anything or changed. First, her old posts have been back on the blog for months since last spring. If you scroll down on the right hand side there is an achieve and below that is the category search vf is still a category with like 144 posts in it. Her views seem the same. She used to say her view was "mostly skirts most of the time" then before vision forum closed she did a post basically admitting that they gave it up because it was hard. They always allowed mainstream music and television. Now if she starts saying abortion is okay or even birth control is fine I'll say her views so changed. I would love for them to send one of those girls to college but I don't see that happening. We don't know why her daughter got divorced it might have been for an acceptable reason like adultery or maybe he divorced her because he didn't want to be married at 20 and she got no say in it and they have decided she is going to live at home as a sister mom for the rest of her life because her remarriage would be wrong. Theynhavent said enough for us to know if it's a view change. Sorry was typing this on my phone and its hard to correct.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I'm not the world's biggest fan of the LIAS blog, but I really don't feel like I'm in any position to judge them either. From what I've seen online, I think they're probably processing a lot from the fall of VF and whatever may be happening with their daughter. I've been in a very controlling, legalistic church that went down some crazy paths and I still remember how I got from who I was back then to who I am now.

It can be hard to explain to someone who's never lived in a fundie church, but the path out of that lifestyle doesn't always go in a straight line. You can't (or at least I couldn't) just flip a switch one day and undo years of programming and thinking. As a result, questioning things like church, God, purity culture and all that stuff about how life should work can sometimes be a messy process, and your thoughts are just all over the place. If I had been on the internet back in the days when I was first starting to question some of what went on in the church where I grew up, you would probably have said nasty things about me, too. I try to remember that when I read cringeworthy things from the LIAS crowd and others I see starting to question the lifestyle because I know that the period where you're in transition and could go in any number of directions is hard to live, and I hope these folks can just get to a better place rather than falling back into VF-style legalism.

[CloakNDagger]

CnD, put up or shut up. Stop telling us we are wrong without explaining why. You are losing credibility.

Can't. Sorry. But I stick to my opinion.

[samurai_sarah]

My post was directed at fundies and CnD for being wishy washy. I'm not telling anybody to shut up. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

I get that, no worries. I didn't get why HereticHick said that you shouldn't tell others what to discuss, when you weren't saying that.

[PrairieGirl]

FWIW (and it may not be worth much), I have a very clear memory of Perry making some pretty snarky anti-Doug/VF comments on his Facebook page in the first few months post-Tool-o-Ween. Trouble is, I can't find them now, and I never took screen shots. But I know I saw them.

Perhaps another FJ-er with superior Facebook-fu skills can unearth something.

I don't have anything to add to the LIAS discussion, as I never followed her blog at all.

But I must say that "Tool-O-Ween" is the most hilarious word ever! Really, we need to make it a holiday here at FJ, complete with lavish parties, food, gifts, etc. :banana-dance: :character-beavisbutthead: :ymca:

Doug Phillips is a rapist/tool.

[Marian the Librarian]

I don't have anything to add to the LIAS discussion, as I never followed her blog at all.

But I must say that "Tool-O-Ween" is the most hilarious word ever! Really, we need to make it a holiday here at FJ, complete with lavish parties, food, gifts, etc. :banana-dance: :character-beavisbutthead: :ymca:

Doug Phillips is a rapist/tool.

:lol: Re: "Tool-O-Ween" - I believe credit for coining that might go to Twin2, but I can't remember for sure. It's lost in the mists of FJ time for me. No matter, Tool-O-Ween it is, and Tool-O-Ween it ever shall be.

[PrairieGirl]

:lol: Re: "Tool-O-Ween" - I believe credit for coining that might go to Twin2, but I can't remember for sure. It's lost in the mists of FJ time for me. No matter, Tool-O-Ween it is, and Tool-O-Ween it ever shall be.

Ah yes, Twin2 was always Dougie's nemesis wasn't she? :)

[ladyamylynn]

Looks like the divorce is final as of March 2nd, and Deanna has officially changed her name back to Coghlan.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

^ will they ever acknowledge the divorce? It's like the elephant in the room.

[eri]

And your attitude towards them makes me angry... I guess saying too much about why I feel that way would be a little more that I want to post right now, but I really, really think you are overly judgmental on them.

Agreed. It is really disappointing how personally offended, catty, and childish the responses to your comment are. Your comment is a voice of reason, but that's not allowed much in these parts. ;)

[ladyamylynn]

Agreed. It is really disappointing how personally offended, catty, and childish the responses to your comment are. Your comment is a voice of reason, but that's not allowed much in these parts. ;)