Lourdes and Nolan marry - Lawsuit against DPIAT/R filed

[ILoveJellybeans]

The idea that “the system†she was under kept her too fearful is ludicrous. Whatever definition of patriarchy/biblical submission/authority you use, NO teaching encourages one to follow the authority of someone in sin. There is ALWAYS taught the recourse of obeying God above man–any man. I know her family enough to know that she was not bound by fear or some teaching that would inhibit her from seeking help. Her father loved her dearly and would have protected her without question. Someone asked me if it were my daughter…she knows full well exactly what to do if approached in an unwanted way. And if help isn’t immediate enough, she packs a gun and she knows how to use it. We don’t raise cowards, as assumed. To try to use a “teaching†as a defense, especially when that teaching emphasized the protection of women, is as upside down as it can get.

She still isn't understanding this, is she? How is it so hard to get? If it was that easy, Lourdes would have done it sooner than she did.

Sure, it doesn't explicitly state that you must follow an authority figure if they are in sin (except for maybe the Pearls), but instant obedience drilled into you from birth means you don't have time to think before you obey.

Im sure Lourdes also knew her dad loves her, but there are many reasons she might be afraid to tell him-being afraid of what Doug would do if she told, worrying she wouldn't be believed and losing the love of her family, being ashamed to tell anyone because she felt dirty and had her purity taken away....turns out, he did try and protect her in the end, when Doug tried climbing into her window at night. Theres a big difference in saying "If I was raped, I would scream and kick the guy in the nuts" or "If I was in an abusive relationship, the first time he hit me I would leave and call the cops" and actually doing it.

Also, if she had shot Doug, things would be way worse than they are now for her. Even if she managed to convince the police that it was self defence and he was about to sexually assault her, I think that pretty much everyone she knew would hate her for killing their prophet. She also was a nanny to their kids, so I imagine she got emotionally attached to them, she wouldn't want to kill their dad and cause them so much upset. Violence does not solve your problems. Also why would she be armed, while in bed at night with someone she trusted and didn't know was about to come into her room and assault her. I don't even think Kim Coghlan is armed at night.

[FundieWatcher]

In the 9th grade a boy started touching my between my legs in science class. I let it happen three times before I went to the school resource officer. My 14 yo self thought he wouldn't do it again, I didn't want to a fuss, I didn't want to be the one that got him in trouble (even though he was a nobody), I didn't want my parents to find out(even though it wasn't my fault) etc...I thought I was in control and I could make it stop. I have parents that love me. I have support, just like Kelly says Lourdes has.

What I want to do I probably I can't say on this board, it involves my fist and her teeth though. I really wish I could do is protest that cunts homeschool classes in Washington she is teaching. Bitch doesn't need to teach on how to build a birdhouse, much less how to teach children.

I think she does understand what they are saying on ssb, but her ego won't allow her to she is wrong.

[Curious]

I don't think anyone has posted this yet but Kelly C has graced the SSB comment section with her presence.

spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/04/22/queen-bees-of-homeschooling-stacy-mcdonald-and-kelly-crawford-dont-like-the-victim-word-in-the-lourdes-torres-manteufel-vs-doug-phillips-lawsuit/

You don't have to break links to SSB, for future reference :) I saw this article earlier, but didn't read the comments. I am heading back over there now to do that.

[Dark Matters]

You don't have to break links to SSB, for future reference :) I saw this article earlier, but didn't read the comments. I am heading back over there now to do that.

I don't post that often so I just figured better safe than sorry. :)

[Palimpsest]

You don't have to break links to SSB, for future reference :) I saw this article earlier, but didn't read the comments. I am heading back over there now to do that.

Julie Anne is kicking some serious butt over there. She is not allowing the revictimization of Lourdes and is doing her best to keep the discussion very focused on the systemic issues. I like Julie Anne.

I agree with her (or rather she agrees with me because I said it first here on FJ:wink-kitty:) Bob Sarratt should resign from BCA forthwith. He is a pathetic excuse for an Elder. Apparently no-one trusted him with the facts, he has no spine and, most off all, he is still in thrall to Doug.

Unlike Julie Anne, I didn't go so far as to say that BCA should disband, but she has a good point there too. The organization has been wallowing in dysfunction and Doug's corruption for too long.

[theresa]

I still find it very wierd that not one post has come through Patriarch's Wives Digest (run by Stacy McDonald) regarding the situation with DPIAT/R (don't know if I got that right). It's been super slow on there, hardly any digests come through. I've been on there for years when I used to hold to all they believed in. I'm so glad I started reading here, it opened my eyes a lot to the hypocrisy and craziness of it all. I never stopped subbing to them though. I hope the no posting there is a sign of people waking up to the horrors of patriarchy. I'm just sickened by Stacy's comments on SSB. She's a bitch!!

[Maxwell]

From James McDonalds FB page, which is public:

www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1/posts/ ... eam_ref=10

Warning - rant alert...

When I went into ministry, I answered the call of God, gladly leaving behind a six-figure salary as a corporate executive, yearly bonuses, stock options, the best hotels, fine dining, travels to exotic countries, and first class seating.

I happily embraced being home with my family, a greatly-reduced pastor’s salary, a 15-passenger van, and family road trips to homeschool conferences.

But I also inherited critics who hate my guts, defame my name, twist my doctrinal positions, question my motives, attack my wife, and gossip about my children online. Because, after all, I’m in the ministry for personal, financial gain and glory.

Yes, I’m self-serving like that.

** Edited to provide a more concise link **

[jaelh]

From James McDonalds FB page, which is public:

http://www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1 ... eam_ref=10

From the same page:

A beautiful day for two covenant baptisms. Come worship with us!

I've heard of covenant weddings, but covenant baptisms? What? is it in the same vein as the weddings (ie: it's going to be somehow harder to get our of your professed belief) or something else? cause every baptism involves covenants, but... ?? what on earth does he mean here?

[CloakNDagger]

From James McDonalds FB page, which is public:

http://www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1 ... eam_ref=10

** Edited to provide a more concise link **

That's probably largely in part because of Nolan posting one of his "cult alerts" about him...

CULT ALERT

Earlier today James McDonald posted this prayer here on FB.

"Gracious Father, give us a deeper sense of Your eternal plan for our lives Help us to see that we are not to simply live for the moment, but we are to be growing in faith and maturity so that we might be a blessing to others in the future. To that end, I thank You specifically for women who are committed to the cause of Jesus, women who do not see their role laid out in Scripture as a curse, but who embrace it with joy, recognizing that it is a call to spiritual warfare. Father, help us to support and encourage all women who engage in this battle, and may You raise up more aged women of God to teach the younger ones to hold fast to Your word regardless of the pressures of the age.

In Jesus’ name, amen!" -- James McDonald, Pastor

1) JM is not exalting Christ, he is using Him. JM is not exalting the name of Christ according to the Bible. JM is using the name of "Jesus" to hold people's attention while telling them *stuff*.

2) JM is using "Scripture" to distract people's attention away from the victory Christ won. JM is implying "Scripture" has a unique "call to spiritual warfare" for women. JM is referring to a "battle" that needs our engagement. TEACH US, JM!!! What battle should distract us from Christ's victory?!

3) JM may be a hypocrite. Does he genuinely desire to grow "in faith and maturity"... or is he an vain talker? Let's watch.

You're welcome, JM.

To which he did actually leave some responses.

Wow. Thanks Nolan. Maybe you should listen to the sermons I preach and then show me where I am wrong.

Rickey - have you listened to my sermons? This is a false charge. Sad.

I'm not Scott Brown or Bob Sarratt. And, I haven't listened to their sermons. But, every one of the sermons preached at Providence Church are online. Feel free to give them a listen. You will find that the pulpit of Providence elevates the final and complete work of Jesus.

Listen to any sermon you want, Nolan. They speak for themselves. Grace and peace to you.

He's the only one I know of to actually answer one of Nolan's charges.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I still find it very wierd that not one post has come through Patriarch's Wives Digest (run by Stacy McDonald) regarding the situation with DPIAT/R (don't know if I got that right). It's been super slow on there, hardly any digests come through. I've been on there for years when I used to hold to all they believed in. I'm so glad I started reading here, it opened my eyes a lot to the hypocrisy and craziness of it all. I never stopped subbing to them though. I hope the no posting there is a sign of people waking up to the horrors of patriarchy. I'm just sickened by Stacy's comments on SSB. She's a bitch!!

I kind of wonder if the whole list is broken or something. One of my fundie cousins is on there and she said that she's sent in prayer requests and other posts that never show up on the list, and she claims one of her ffriends on there complained about the same thing. I'm not on that list so no idea what the politics of it are as from pro-patriarchy.

[FundieWatcher]

That's probably largely in part because of Nolan posting one of his "cult alerts" about him...

To which he did actually leave some responses.

He's the only one I know of to actually answer one of Nolan's charges.

On the plus side, I think it shows Nolan carries some weight in that world. The McDonalds care what he thinks about them.

And, is that bragging about having money and nice things in the past modest? I don't see how. Although I don't engage fundies in debates about the Bible since I haven't studied it myself.

[FJismyheadship]

For the gay panic lady

[Maxwell]

That's probably largely in part because of Nolan posting one of his "cult alerts" about him...

To which he did actually leave some responses.

He's the only one I know of to actually answer one of Nolan's charges.

I wouldn't know as Nolan has black balled me from his FB page. :cry: (hoping someday Nolan will see this and unblock Mr. Slarti Bartfast ;) )

I assumed that it was just a general rant about all the recent happenings triggered by the on going flame session over at SSB. You can usually tell when you've hit on something by the ensuing reaction... sounds like Nolan hit a nerve. And that the fact that Nolan was picking apart the quote from JM and his comments are solely about the quote but JM responds in reference to his sermons?? Yeah... ummm... Mr. Manteufel wasn't commenting on the sermons.

[GothardsLap]

All I can think when reading the Wilsons, Crawford, McDonalds et al is:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Actually, I don't even "believe" most of them or at least the women really "believe" what they peddle. I see primarily mercenary activities tied to espousing these views. To attract attention in order to more successfully market themselves they create ever more fringe ideas as "biblical". There's no money in telling people to read their Bible and follow what Jesus said which is a lot about loving enemies, not loving money and serving one another humbly in love. So, they create a niche, a "holier than the rest" niche, where they are the only ones telling you the hard truths about ___________ (insert shtick). The sheeple then spend all their time and money listening to the tapes, buying the materials, reading the blogs and gathering with the like minded to hear more wisdom from the same speakers who have created a sub-culture full of "christians" who live isolated and in fear of the broader world to which they are encouraged to feel superior.

Lourdes was a sheltered child when DPIAT/R began grooming her. She was no match for him nor could she ever be in the system she was indoctrinated into. Anyone who knows anything about human interpersonal dynamics can see the incredible power imbalance. But worse than that, he was her spiritual leader too. The idea from Stacy, Kelly et al that these things happen all the time in corporate America is not true these days. I know from personal experience with a large company how harassers are treated these days. Companies lost lots of money over these kinds of suits and I only hope Lourdes follows in the footsteps of Catholic plaintiffs who were given substantial awards. But Lourdes situation goes way beyond the Catholic priest scenario into something more like a Stephen King novel. I'm glad she's married to Nolan who seems like a strong support but she will definitely need some serious therapy to get over the incredible violations she was subjected to. She is very brave to be bringing this suit. I really hope the system is adequate to deal with this kind of abuse. Gibbs has set out a good foundation with the background and total control explanation.

I think it's good that she has a lawyer intimately familiar with the beast involved here. I know some speculated whether he would "throw" the case or whether he could be trusted. Believe me, no lawyer with half a brain would do that. They would be disbarred so fast and lose their livelihood. I hope he truly was incensed by Dougie's various offenses and wants to bring him to justice. Maybe it can take the whole shell game down. All the names involved worked to build a system designed to create female victims whether that was their actual intention or not. It was the natural and forseeable consequence of their actions.

I was doing a search and came across a paper:

Religiosity, Christian Fundamentalism, and Intimate Partner Violence Among U.S. College Students

http://courses.ttu.edu/jkoch/Research/Koch%20Ramirez%20Religion%20and%20Partner%20Violence%20Final%20Feb%2009.pdf that I found interesting. The paper indicated "normal" christianity/religiosity was

was not associated with violence approval, psychological aggression, or intimate partner violence. However, Christian fundamentalism was positively associated with both violence approval and acts of intimate partner violence...

There were a number of other research articles but this seemed the most recent.

She still isn't understanding this, is she? How is it so hard to get? If it was that easy, Lourdes would have done it sooner than she did.

Sure, it doesn't explicitly state that you must follow an authority figure if they are in sin (except for maybe the Pearls), but instant obedience drilled into you from birth means you don't have time to think before you obey.

Im sure Lourdes also knew her dad loves her, but there are many reasons she might be afraid to tell him-being afraid of what Doug would do if she told, worrying she wouldn't be believed and losing the love of her family, being ashamed to tell anyone because she felt dirty and had her purity taken away....turns out, he did try and protect her in the end, when Doug tried climbing into her window at night. Theres a big difference in saying "If I was raped, I would scream and kick the guy in the nuts" or "If I was in an abusive relationship, the first time he hit me I would leave and call the cops" and actually doing it.

Also, if she had shot Doug, things would be way worse than they are now for her. Even if she managed to convince the police that it was self defence and he was about to sexually assault her, I think that pretty much everyone she knew would hate her for killing their prophet. She also was a nanny to their kids, so I imagine she got emotionally attached to them, she wouldn't want to kill their dad and cause them so much upset. Violence does not solve your problems. Also why would she be armed, while in bed at night with someone she trusted and didn't know was about to come into her room and assault her. I don't even think Kim Coghlan is armed at night.

[darkplumaged]

Actually, I don't even "believe" most of them or at least the women really "believe" what they peddle. I see primarily mercenary activities tied to espousing these views. To attract attention in order to more successfully market themselves they create ever more fringe ideas as "biblical". There's no money in telling people to read their Bible and follow what Jesus said which is a lot about loving enemies, not loving money and serving one another humbly in love. So, they create a niche, a "holier than the rest" niche, where they are the only ones telling you the hard truths about ___________ (insert shtick). The sheeple then spend all their time and money listening to the tapes, buying the materials, reading the blogs and gathering with the like minded to hear more wisdom from the same speakers who have created a sub-culture full of "christians" who live isolated and in fear of the broader world to which they are encouraged to feel superior.

:clap:

The perfect analysis of all of these fundie shills--from VF and ATI, to the Maxwells (who may actually be true believers, but who are still profiting from being holier than thou), to the lesser-known helpmeets selling e-books and essential oils.

[Curious]

I don't post that often so I just figured better safe than sorry. :)

No problem. I wasn't scolding. I just try to mention so people are aware what kinds of links don't have to be broken without everyone having to get their graduate degree in SEO ;)

[OkToBeTakei]

I couldn’t find much of a bio on Kelly. She is a homeschooling mom of 10. She is a speaker and blogger who once had Vision Forum affiliate ads on her blog’s sidebar. Let’s read what she has to say on Lourdes as “victimâ€:

This person does not know Kelly 2 Chicken breasts of Generation Starvation? For shame :lol:

[browngrl]

Kelly "two chicken breasts" Crawford wants to put the onus of responsibility onto Lourdes but she is completely wrong. The fault sits squarely on the shoulders of the tool. This is because he was in a position of authority. When ever there is a discrepancy in power there is an inherent bias and the person in authority has a duty to take extra care to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. The fact that he abused the trust he was given is heinous. It makes no difference that she was adult for part of the time she was abused. It would make no difference if at any time she said she "consented" or even if she responded physically to the abuse - the difference in power taints any consent to such an extent that careful measures need to be in place to get proper consent. With power comes responsibility. The tool abused his power and he should be held accountable.

[DomWackTroll]

Stacy is posting up a storm about patriarchy and authority on Facebook, and one of her FB friends actually replied, "there is always a polite way to say no to the things that cannot be submitted to." Stacy "Liked" it.

facebook.com/stacy.mcdonald/posts/10202841231063968?stream_ref=10

So now I guess Lourdes shouldn't have even cried out. She should have sent Doug a response on engraved and sealed stationary saying, "I respectfully decline your kind invitation to forcibly ejaculate on my face." Because lady.

[Chowder Head]

Stacy is posting up a storm about patriarchy and authority on Facebook, and one of her FB friends actually replied, "there is always a polite way to say no to the things that cannot be submitted to." Stacy "Liked" it.

facebook.com/stacy.mcdonald/posts/10202841231063968?stream_ref=10

So now I guess Lourdes shouldn't have even cried out. She should have sent Doug a response on engraved and sealed stationary saying, "I respectfully decline your kind invitation to forcibly ejaculate on my face." Because lady.

Do they have any concept that "no" only works when the other person respects it?

[debrand]

Do they have any concept that "no" only works when the other person respects it?

Apparently, being polite and gracious creates an invisible wall of protection around a woman that abusive people can not break.

It is the kind of thinking that leads to young women not feeling that they have the power to speak out against an abusive person in power....like what happened with Lourdes. In a way it is good that these people post such asinine comments and views. Perhaps Lourdes' lawyer can screen shot them and use them as proof about how this group views women and abuse.

[Joan of Snarc]

Actually, I don't even "believe" most of them or at least the women really "believe" what they peddle. I see primarily mercenary activities tied to espousing these views. To attract attention in order to more successfully market themselves they create ever more fringe ideas as "biblical". There's no money in telling people to read their Bible and follow what Jesus said which is a lot about loving enemies, not loving money and serving one another humbly in love. So, they create a niche, a "holier than the rest" niche, where they are the only ones telling you the hard truths about ___________ (insert shtick). The sheeple then spend all their time and money listening to the tapes, buying the materials, reading the blogs and gathering with the like minded to hear more wisdom from the same speakers who have created a sub-culture full of "christians" who live isolated and in fear of the broader world to which they are encouraged to feel superior.

Yes. It's as if they created a successful business designing and manufacturing electric cars, but at home they drive a gas-guzzler.

[church_of_dog]

Kelly "two chicken breasts" Crawford wants to put the onus of responsibility onto Lourdes but she is completely wrong. The fault sits squarely on the shoulders of the tool. This is because he was in a position of authority. When ever there is a discrepancy in power there is an inherent bias and the person in authority has a duty to take extra care to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. The fact that he abused the trust he was given is heinous. It makes no difference that she was adult for part of the time she was abused. It would make no difference if at any time she said she "consented" or even if she responded physically to the abuse - the difference in power taints any consent to such an extent that careful measures need to be in place to get proper consent. With power comes responsibility. The tool abused his power and he should be held accountable.

So… Doug Phillips is a Power Tool? :tools-hammerdrill: :tools-hammerdrill:

[J'ean Skirt]

I kind of wonder if the whole list is broken or something. One of my fundie cousins is on there and she said that she's sent in prayer requests and other posts that never show up on the list, and she claims one of her ffriends on there complained about the same thing. I'm not on that list so no idea what the politics of it are as from pro-patriarchy.

There has been a bit of change in the email space that's breaking a lot of mailing lists over the last few weeks. The details are fairly technical but list mail for gmail, aol, yahoo and hotmail addresses, as well as comcast and a few other providers is not working well at the moment. If you search for DMARC or p=reject you'll find some info on it.

It could be this has caused posts not to show up.

[Arete]

Remember that when the scandal broke wide open in November that dear Sister Stacy went over to Jen's Gems to hand slap everyone for not minding their own business. Doug was to be judged by the local church only, no one had the entire story, he was repentant etc

Fast forward to the day before yesterday on SSB, where the lady was protesting that she had NEVER defended Doug, and that Julie Anne should "look at a database" of supposed mentally ill people before accepting certain comments.

Twat.