Israel to start conscripting ultra-Orthodox

[Cheetah]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world ... .html?_r=0

While I can't pretend to know much of anything about Israeli politics, this is interesting at least from the perspective of fundamentalist branch of a given religion losing a special exemption. Comments on this article and others I've seen on the same matter tend to run mostly along the lines of "it's about time."

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There was a big gathering in Jerusalem about this (as mentioned in the NYTimes article), and a question from some woman about "are you/your family going to it?" sparked a huge 15-page thread over on imamother last week, it was pretty interesting to see different takes and angles on both the law and the idea of holding that gathering itself.

For many of the "anti" fundies, their main objection is that the culture of the army is incompatible with what they view as religious requirements. Having a woman soldier sing at an official army function was a big issue a while ago, and one of the "see, it would be impossible" examples often brought up. People point out that one of the functions of the Israeli army IS to provide some certain common culture to all Israelis, and certain of the ultra-religious have a problem with that.

Additionally there was some of the usual discussion over if studying Torah is also protecting the country just like serving in the army is, as expected there is a range in just how literally some people take that - one of the snarks that often gets from (also very religious, but state-supporting) national religious types is "well then, try studying on your hill without the army then if you are that confident."

It also ties into a sort of larger question about just how appropriate it is for certain communities to expect that ALL of their kids (growing up into men) would be long time religious learners (rather than just studying some at home while having normal jobs). It's kinda like a community expecting all kids to go on to graduate school, and so people (even some in those communities) are starting to say, well, maybe we should promote those kids that really show an aptitude for it, have some selective place that if you get in there then sure, defer your service (or exempt it utterly or whatever else) for however many years while you're in there, like a PhD program, but to expect ALL kids to do that, or allow all kids, even the "benchwarmers" to get an exemption, isn't sustainable.

Anyway it was an interesting discussion.

[Cleopatra7]

I'll be curious to see how this will be implemented. Many haredi sects are anti-Zionist and won't relish the prospect of dying for an entity they don't recognize. Also many speak Yiddish as their first language and think it's blasphemy to speak Hebrew on the street. It may be hard to integrate them into the army, especially if there is this much resistance.

[Talitha Cumi]

I'll be curious to see how this will be implemented. Many haredi sects are anti-Zionist and won't relish the prospect of dying for an entity they don't recognize. Also many speak Yiddish as their first language and think it's blasphemy to speak Hebrew on the street. It may be hard to integrate them into the army, especially if there is this much resistance.

Haredim in Israel are anti-Zionist? That seems... odd.

[crazyforkate]

Honestly, a few people in Israel told me that they think these sects will eventually outnumber those who want Israel to remain a state, and will dissolve it on their own - and that's how Israel will end, not by war. Seems a little far-fetched to me, but they were pretty convinced.

[gustava]

Apparently, implementation will not be for another few years, during which time a new government may be voted in that will overturn the law.

[Benk]

Haredim in Israel are anti-Zionist? That seems... odd.

Yup. It is pretty hard to wrap your head around, but true nonetheless. Basically the haredi who think this way believe that there will be a Jewish state in this part of the world when the messiah comes, and that it's wrong to try and hasten that with a human effort in the same direction. It is a outlier view even among the Haredi though. More of them are okay with their being a Jewish state, but just want it run in accord with their view of Jewish law.