Paternalism even more extreme than our Fundies

[Ralar]

The King of Saudi Arabia is keeping four of his daughters captive in his grand palace, their mother told the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), the Sunday Times reported Sunday. Under Saudi law, King Abdullah has the right to force his daughters to stay inside the palace, as he is legally allowed to limit their travel. All females must have a male guardian, usually a father, brother or a husband.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Not-like-a-fairy-tale-Saudi-princesses-reportedly-locked-in-castle-by-king-for-13-years-344763

[Fallgirl30]

I read that earlier today, wow. About 20 years ago, I read all of the books by Jean Sasson. She told the story of a Saudi princess, in a series of books, about someone named Princess Sultana, who blew the lid off of the lives in the royal family, and specifically wrote about how women are treated. It was a fascinating eye opener. It made my blood boil.

[debrand]

"We slowly watch each other fading away into nothingness," they said, adding that their sister Hala had told them "that her mind is slipping away ... that the life is being sucked out of her," they wrote.

Under Saudi law, King Abdullah has the right to force his daughters to stay inside the palace, as he is legally allowed to limit their travel. All females must have a male guardian, usually a father, brother or a husband.

Very heartbreaking

[SPHASH]

Sadly the Christian patriarch movement would approve of this.

[samurai_sarah]

Sadly the Christian patriarch movement would approve of this.

ITA. Isn't that what they're working towards? :?

[DGayle]

Yesterday I pissed off a couple friends of mine. They're moaning about how it's a human rights violation that employers can limit visible tattoos and piercings while on the clock, and even insist on a natural, non-neon hair color. They think that all choices a person can make should be legally protected in the work place, and that any employer who doesn't, if violating their human rights. I told them I had no sympathy to spare for them when most states still let employers refuse to hire gay people, or fire them if they find out later, when being gay isn't a choice.

I'm always amazed at how people think they're the victims in situations when they have choices. These princesses don't have choices, and their dad is a bastard who should be suffocated in his sleep.

[EmiGirl]

It sounds a lot like what Cabinetman describes what he does to his wife and children. Except they get a cabin in the woods, not a palace with servants.

[DGayle]

It sounds a lot like what Cabinetman describes what he does to his wife and children. Except they get a cabin in the woods, not a palace with servants.

If the princesses are bringing the groceries, maybe they don't get servants, or are the servants.

[Primadonna]

That's truly heartbreaking! this is the king that is supposed to be more liberal?

[salex]

Didn't someone say the Bodkin sisters undid their daddy's shoes at night? While they are princesses in their movement, they also aren't given much true freedom.

I have long believed that all fundamentalism is more or less the same, and that fundamentalism is one of the greatest dangers in the world.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That's truly heartbreaking! this is the king that is supposed to be more liberal?

It's a relative term. This king is still 89 years old, and the absolute ruler of a country that is insanely repressive. It's not just these princesses - no women can drive, all women need permission of a male guardian to do the most basic things, etc. In this context, even the tiniest baby steps are considered reforms - like allowing women to finally vote in municipal elections in 2015, or actually making domestic violence illegal in 2013.

[hoipolloi]

Didn't someone say the Bodkin sisters undid their daddy's shoes at night? While they are princesses in their movement, they also aren't given much true freedom.

I have long believed that all fundamentalism is more or less the same, and that fundamentalism is one of the greatest dangers in the world.

+1. There's really not much difference between fundy Christians, ultra-Orthodox Jews or Wahhabi Muslims (the Saudi kind), especially in their views of women and others who don't share their religious belief.

[Mama Mia]

Didn't someone say the Bodkin sisters undid their daddy's shoes at night? While they are princesses in their movement, they also aren't given much true freedom.

I have long believed that all fundamentalism is more or less the same, and that fundamentalism is one of the greatest dangers in the world.

A gigantic difference is that if the Botkin girl decided to move out of her Dads house there is nothing that could legally be done to stop her. That is hugely different than a legal system that would return the adult princess to her father ( or worse) because she is breaking the law by defying the orders of her guardian.

[RosyDaisy]

Yesterday I pissed off a couple friends of mine. They're moaning about how it's a human rights violation that employers can limit visible tattoos and piercings while on the clock, and even insist on a natural, non-neon hair color. They think that all choices a person can make should be legally protected in the work place, and that any employer who doesn't, if violating their human rights. I told them I had no sympathy to spare for them when most states still let employers refuse to hire gay people, or fire them if they find out later, when being gay isn't a choice.

I'm always amazed at how people think they're the victims in situations when they have choices. These princesses don't have choices, and their dad is a bastard who should be suffocated in his sleep.

This is when I pretend to be too busy to participate in the conversation. And during lunch and breaks....out comes my tablet and earphones. I do not participate in that kind of office badmouthing.

[Primadonna]

It's a relative term. This king is still 89 years old, and the absolute ruler of a country that is insanely repressive. It's not just these princesses - no women can drive, all women need permission of a male guardian to do the most basic things, etc. In this context, even the tiniest baby steps are considered reforms - like allowing women to finally vote in municipal elections in 2015, or actually making domestic violence illegal in 2013.

Oh! I get it now. I remember reading an article about one princess wanting to drive, Do we know if the king did indeed gave her permission? I hope one day us women get all the rights we need in every country of the world.

[nelliebelle1197]

It sounds a lot like what Cabinetman describes what he does to his wife and children. Except they get a cabin in the woods, not a palace with servants.

Can someone link to the Cabinetman stuff? I think it is on SSM's "blog", but I cannot bear to search that place. My sensibilities are delicate ;)

[nausicaa]

ITA. Isn't that what they're working towards? :?

Under the fundie's current patriarchal belief system, isn't this technically allowed? The father is the headship, has final say in the daughter's life, and she is supposed to defer to his wisdom. So if a man decided that the world was just too dangerous for his unsullied rose, he would be allowed to keep her at home for years on end. The only thing others could do would be to "exhort" him with Bible verses. The difference is, as stated upthread, that in Tennessee or Arkansas if the daughter escaped there would be no legal recourse (except possibly against the father).

I've always thought that in a few years we'll hear about an extreme story like this happening somewhere in the US with some sort of Christian fundamentalist adherents. There are just too many unbalanced men who are attracted to patriarchy. They most often live in rural places and their belief system only feeds their paranoia and sense of infallibility.

[2xx1xy1JD]

A gigantic difference is that if the Botkin girl decided to move out of her Dads house there is nothing that could legally be done to stop her. That is hugely different than a legal system that would return the adult princess to her father ( or worse) because she is breaking the law by defying the orders of her guardian.

Exactly. Things that would be practiced by isolated extremists or cults in North America are actually written into law in places like Saudi Arabia. Even if a particular family was more liberal, the women would still need to be completely covered with abaya and niqab to go out in public, they would still not be allowed to drive, they would still need permission of their male guardian to travel or do other basic things, morality police would still enforce rules even if their family didn't care. I know someone who was desperate to get her daughter out of Saudi Arabia after she became pregnant out of wedlock while working there - such pregnancies are considered "illegal".

More information: http://www.refworld.org/docid/47387b6f2f.html

Finally, before we feel too superior, consider the fact that Saudi Arabia is considered to be an ally of the United States.

[debrand]

Although parents can't legally force their adult children to return home in the US, some of the more extreme fundies we cover make it very unlikely that a daughter will be able to support herself outside of their home. On the now erased site, 7XSunday there were fundies discussing whether they had to give their kids birth certificates. I don't know how their kids would get driver's licenses or enroll in school without a birth certificate. We know also that some of these families only concentrate on teaching their daughters homemaking skills. How do you become self supporting without job skills? For some of these girls, marriage is their only ticket out of their parents' homes.

Women in Saudi have it worse but some fundie families create a life for their daughters that is also very difficult to escape.

[snarktastic]

Petty technicality :D niqab is not legally required in Saudi. Even hijab isn't although the morality policy can arbitrarily decide otherwise.

Another fun fact, Saudi statutory maternity leave is better than that offered in the US.

Apart from that, not entirely a paradise for women.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Petty technicality :D niqab is not legally required in Saudi. Even hijab isn't although the morality policy can arbitrarily decide otherwise.

Another fun fact, Saudi statutory maternity leave is better than that offered in the US.

Apart from that, not entirely a paradise for women.

I found an official Saudi government site, which says that the abaya (long body covering) is mandatory for all, and all Saudi women are required to cover their hair (hijab). You may be right that niqab is not required by law.

http://www.saudiembassy.or.jp/DiscoverSA/TC.htm

[Mama Mia]

Although parents can't legally force their adult children to return home in the US, some of the more extreme fundies we cover make it very unlikely that a daughter will be able to support herself outside of their home. On the now erased site, 7XSunday there were fundies discussing whether they had to give their kids birth certificates. I don't know how their kids would get driver's licenses or enroll in school without a birth certificate. We know also that some of these families only concentrate on teaching their daughters homemaking skills. How do you become self supporting without job skills? For some of these girls, marriage is their only ticket out of their parents' homes.

Women in Saudi have it worse but some fundie families create a life for their daughters that is also very difficult to escape.

Yes it is difficult to make it independently without job skills or an education or a birth certificate, but if they really wanted to they could find a way. There are several million undocumented people in a similar situation, often with the additional barrier of not speaking English, and they manage to eek out a living. Plus millions of young people who just did lousy in school and received no vocational training, who also end up getting jobs and getting by. I don't buy that marriage is fundamentalist girls only option if they actually really want to go. I think the primary barrier, if they aren't happy, is that they aren't so unhappy that they are willing to potentially lose their family and friends and have a (possibly) lower standard of living.

[Rebelwife]

Yes it is difficult to make it independently without job skills or an education or a birth certificate, but if they really wanted to they could find a way. There are several million undocumented people in a similar situation, often with the additional barrier of not speaking English, and they manage to eek out a living. Plus millions of young people who just did lousy in school and received no vocational training, who also end up getting jobs and getting by. I don't buy that marriage is fundamentalist girls only option if they actually really want to go. I think the primary barrier, if they aren't happy, is that they aren't so unhappy that they are willing to potentially lose their family and friends and have a (possibly) lower standard of living.

You can't discount the genuine fear of going to hell for "doing it wrong" though. That kind of brainwashing can be a tough thing to break through, no matter how unhappy you are.

[acheronbeach]

Petty technicality :D niqab is not legally required in Saudi. Even hijab isn't although the morality policy can arbitrarily decide otherwise.

Another fun fact, Saudi statutory maternity leave is better than that offered in the US.

Apart from that, not entirely a paradise for women.

Most Saudi women I've met - despite the hardcore patriarchy there - are very well educated and have worked outside of the home.

Not to threadjack, but doesn't the US have one of the world's worst parental leave laws?

[salex]

Most Saudi women I've met - despite the hardcore patriarchy there - are very well educated and have worked outside of the home.

Not to threadjack, but doesn't the US have one of the world's worst parental leave laws?

We have a parental leave law? Oh, you mean this?? No paid parental leave; a maximum of 12 weeks' unpaid parental leave for mothers and fathers

probably countries exist with worse... or not... Swaziland appears to be the same as here.... and it looks like most other countries offer at least something.

.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_008009/lang--en/index.htm