Catholic Charismatic Incld:tongues, prophecy, faith healing

[mrs]

This morning NPR aired a segment on the Catholic Charismatic movement. It is a movement that is growing among Latino Catholics. I believe the movement is embracing some Christian/fundamentalist behaviors like; speaking in tongues, prophecy and faith healing.

According to the NPR article,

For members of the Charismatic Catholic movement, worship centers on establishing a personal connection with God.

According to a recent survey conducted by NPR, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Harvard School of Public Health, about one-third of Latino Catholics in the U.S. identify as Charismatic. For non-Latino Catholics, this number is closer to one-tenth, according to an earlier poll by the Pew Research Center.

You can read the article and listen to the segment here: http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/201 ... ommunities .

(I wonder if Abigail has heard of this movement?)

[Coconut Flan]

It's been around for a long, long time. It makes for a very interesting mass. Oddest mass I ever attended was done by a charismatic Jesuit priest.

[mrs]

It's been around for a long, long time. It makes for a very interesting mass. Oddest mass I ever attended was done by a charismatic Jesuit priest.

I come from a very conservative Catholic family. I had never heard of the movement. A few years ago I remember hearing about a "plain Catholic movement."

I might have to check out a mass! :D

[Coconut Flan]

There happens to be an entire charismatic Catholic church about five miles from my house. They hold at least one or two charismatic masses or prayer services a month at other churches. I wish you luck finding one. They're interesting.

[mockingbird]

I grew up pretty mainstream Catholic and have never heard of this... sounds really interesting though because it's so opposed to what you traditionally experience during a mass and from the Church in general - like it's usually all about tradition and authority, and not a lot of "personal relationship with Jesus" type stuff. But, I can see how this could fit in without technically going against Catholic beliefs. Like, the "faith healing" - we already have the Anointment of the Sick, so it kind-of fits in there (though I hope this movement doesn't go down the "don't believe in medicine" rabbit hole). I find it really intriguing that Pope Francis "endorsed" the movement.

There is a Traditional Catholic church near me that I'm kind-of interested in attending once just to witness a Latin Mass... I definitely don't want to be associated with that movement in any way, though, so I'm a little afraid of being seen there lol. I'd be interested in checking out a charismatic mass too, but I doubt we have any...

[Coconut Flan]

It appears the priest who was leading the charismatic parish has been reassigned but the charismatic group is still holding regular services around the county. This website might help you locate a service or lead you to a local group: nsc-chariscenter.org/

It was educational and interesting to attend a few of the services and oddly at the healing mass I was told I would need surgery and less than a month later I was indeed seeing the surgeon.

[fun2beme]

I grew up pretty mainstream Catholic and have never heard of this... sounds really interesting though because it's so opposed to what you traditionally experience during a mass and from the Church in general - like it's usually all about tradition and authority, and not a lot of "personal relationship with Jesus" type stuff. But, I can see how this could fit in without technically going against Catholic beliefs. Like, the "faith healing" - we already have the Anointment of the Sick, so it kind-of fits in there (though I hope this movement doesn't go down the "don't believe in medicine" rabbit hole). I find it really intriguing that Pope Francis "endorsed" the movement.

There is a Traditional Catholic church near me that I'm kind-of interested in attending once just to witness a Latin Mass... I definitely don't want to be associated with that movement in any way, though, so I'm a little afraid of being seen there lol. I'd be interested in checking out a charismatic mass too, but I doubt we have any...

Beware of the type of Latin Mass that's being celebrated if you go to one. I went once out of curiousity and was totally unaware that they were having a "high mass" - 1.5 hours with a 90 year old fire-and-brimstone pastor. He said the chances were great that we were going to hell and I swear he specifically looked at me, the only female w/o head covering (godless heathen that I am). My mom asked if I'd take her there for old times' sake and changed her mind really quickly when she remembered how long the high masses were.

I also went to a charismatic Catholic mass out of curiousity. I was expecting the stereotypical shouting and tremors (I am not trying to be offensive, my sincere apologies if I'm coming across that way) but it ended up to just be a bunch of mostly elderly women who occasionally said "amen" out loud, walked around the church at the sign of peace, and sang "peppier" songs than normal.

[Coconut Flan]

The ones I've been to had speaking in tongues and prophesying. It was quite restrained though and contained within the normal elements of the mass.

[mockingbird]

Beware of the type of Latin Mass that's being celebrated if you go to one. I went once out of curiousity and was totally unaware that they were having a "high mass" - 1.5 hours with a 90 year old fire-and-brimstone pastor. He said the chances were great that we were going to hell and I swear he specifically looked at me, the only female w/o head covering (godless heathen that I am). My mom asked if I'd take her there for old times' sake and changed her mind really quickly when she remembered how long the high masses were.

Oh, geez. That's kind-of what I'm also afraid of, especially since the Catholic community here is very conservative, in general. I would probably get some sort of satisfaction out of being the only one without a headcovering though :lol: If I get up the nerve, I have a friend who'd probably be willing to go with me (and who isn't conservative Catholic so wouldn't be pushing anything on me either). I love Easter Vigil mass, so I don't think the length would bother me if I knew about it ahead of time and could plan for it.

Oh and your description of the charismatic mass was pretty funny. It just seemed like the perfect Catholic stereotype of interpreting "charismatic" - can't get too crazy with those modern worship songs now, can you? :lol:

ETA: What is weird to me is that we have this church that only does Latin Mass here, but where I grew up, you are not allowed to do the Latin Mass without special permission. It's considered going against the rulings of the church, basically (Vatican II) and I think they also think it makes the mass less accessible to everyone (you can have sign-language interpreters, masses in languages other than English, etc. but not the Latin one). One of the priests at my parents'/my childhood church wanted to hold a Latin Mass (high mass) for the historical experience since he was really into church history, the language of the mass, etc. but he wasn't able to get permission. I don't know how the charismatic mass would be considered, in either place.

[PennySycamore]

I personally find the charismatic renewal to be weird and the more extreme parts of it to be a gateway into more fundamentalist beliefs. There can be a big emphasis on prophecy which I don't believe in at all and I think can lead people astray. It used to be that the more fundamentalist churches didn't hold with the charismatics at all but some of them may have softened that opposition a little.

A charismatic Mass is usually just freer in worship than a more conventional Mass. There may be dancing, lifting hands, more songs (but "praise songs" not regular hymns) and speaking in tongues, words of knowledge and prophecy. As I've said, it wouldn't be my cup of tea even if I still went to church.

[Coconut Flan]

I've never been to it, but I've been told our diocese Latin rite parish hands out loaner mantillas for women who arrive without a headcovering.

Benedict loosened the reins on the Latin mass so it's easier to get permission.

[mockingbird]

I've never been to it, but I've been told our diocese Latin rite parish hands out loaner mantillas for women who arrive without a headcovering.

Benedict loosened the reins on the Latin mass so it's easier to get permission.

Maybe my priest tried to do it before Benedict... I can't remember. He was definitely talking to me about it after Benedict became Pope but I'm not sure how long ago he had tried to get permission. I did read something recently though about how a church back home was trying to have Latin Mass once a month or something, and got denied. I honestly didn't think I lived in that liberal of a place, but I guess so. haha

And yeah, the loaner mantillas would make sense (though I would hope they'd be paper and not ones you "borrow"... lice :? ). To go totally off-topic, on one hand wearing a headcovering or using the loaner one seems like the respectful thing to do as a visitor. In Italy, the big churches all had paper coverings if you weren't wearing sleeves (but for men too!). On the other, it's kind-of a symbol of that whole Traditionalist movement, which from what I have read is pretty fundy and anti-women, so I wouldn't want to show that I am okay with that or part of the movement...

[julihoop]

Heh. My mother's family was big into this, in the 70s & 80s, in the old country (by which, I mean, Latin America). It's not at all a new thing. I've been to quite a few, and my experience is similar to fun2beme - lots of peppy singing with base & electric guitar, arm waving, going around the Church to say peace. The liturgically important parts of the mass were all there; it was only the style that was different. I think it's appealing in Latin America where the culturally, upbeat music, dancing and openness are all common themes.

My aunts and uncles were very involved in the Church groups (marrieds, singles, etc) but I have no idea about their teachings, as my own mother thought it was all weird and didn't join.

[duplessis3]

David du Plessis was a Pentecostal who became very big on ecumenicism. He helped get the charismatic movement into more mainstream Christian churches, and was at Vatican 2 to talk about the charismatic experience

(This is.pretty huge because he didn't think Catholics weren't Christians!) He was a very interesting man. (And nothing to do with my user name)

[theologygeek]

It's been around for a long, long time. It makes for a very interesting mass. Oddest mass I ever attended was done by a charismatic Jesuit priest.

I used to go 25 years ago. Mass was a blast. I really had a lot of fun. But the priest left and the church closed. Haven't found any Charismatic Catholic churches since. No one spoke in tongues, but I don't see anything wrong with it if it's not faked. I consider real tongues a gift, same as prophecy and faith healing.

[theologygeek]

I grew up pretty mainstream Catholic and have never heard of this... sounds really interesting though because it's so opposed to what you traditionally experience during a mass and from the Church in general - like it's usually all about tradition and authority, and not a lot of "personal relationship with Jesus" type stuff. But, I can see how this could fit in without technically going against Catholic beliefs. Like, the "faith healing" - we already have the Anointment of the Sick, so it kind-of fits in there (though I hope this movement doesn't go down the "don't believe in medicine" rabbit hole). I find it really intriguing that Pope Francis "endorsed" the movement..

Catholics don't call it "faith healing." That is a Protestant term. I'm curious how you grew up Catholic and never heard of Catholic priests who have healing ministries. Fr. Ralph DiOrio is one of them, and is endorsed by the Vatican. As a matter of fact, he talks about what the Vatican put him through to make sure he was legit. He went through a lot.

[mockingbird]

Catholics don't call it "faith healing." That is a Protestant term. I'm curious how you grew up Catholic and never heard of Catholic priests who have healing ministries. Fr. Ralph DiOrio is one of them, and is endorsed by the Vatican. As a matter of fact, he talks about what the Vatican put him through to make sure he was legit. He went through a lot.

So I guess I kind-of thought the article was saying this was a movement that specifically adopted Charismatic terms and practices.

Umm well I think I've vaguely heard of DiOrio... not really healing ministries as a "thing" though (like, maybe a mention with Padre Pio but I could be totally making that up)... ? :? Seems like kind-of a niche area to me, not something that would routinely come up at the pulpit or PSR/elementary-level theology, though.

Edited: rewording

[PennySycamore]

I haven't heard of Father Ralph diOrio in years!

I don't think it's a bit strange that Mockingbird hasn't heard of priests who have "healing ministries". They're still pretty fringe, IMHO. Faith healing is still considered more a Protestant/evangelical/Pentecostal thing and, quite frankly, they're not particularly reputable. Benny Hinn, anyone?

Penny the atheist

[theologygeek]

I haven't heard of Father Ralph diOrio in years!

I don't think it's a bit strange that Mockingbird hasn't heard of priests who have "healing ministries". They're still pretty fringe, IMHO. Faith healing is still considered more a Protestant/evangelical/Pentecostal thing and, quite frankly, they're not particularly reputable. Benny Hinn, anyone?

Penny the atheist

People like Benny Hinn give the good ones a bad name. Fr. DiOrio is a very humble man who doesn't even like media attention. The media goes after him and he complies, but he doesn't seek them out. I believe he has a gift. I've seen him in person and I know someone who was healed at one of his services.

[yetanothermeg]

I grew up in a parish that was more "charismatic" than most with the hand clapping, lots of people raising their hands and swaying, the congregation kind of acted like what you would see at an evangelical church, however, it was a regular mass. This was in the 80s and 90s. I had no idea it was different than any other Catholic church until I went to college and everything was very staid and stiff.

We also had a priest who was briefly with our parish but then went on to have a full-on healing ministry. He would come back periodically to perform a healing mass at our parish. I never attended but I know my mom and other people's parents did and it would be packed. Father Pat Crowley is his name. Checked and he even has a blog. It says he has been performing healing masses since 1972.

healinglightministry.blogspot.com

Also, I know Franciscan University of Steubenville is big with charismatic stuff.

franciscan.edu/news/Catholic_Charismatic_Conference

[mirele]

It's been around for a long, long time. It makes for a very interesting mass. Oddest mass I ever attended was done by a charismatic Jesuit priest.

A couple of decades ago, I remember tagging along with my boyfriend to a Charismatic mass just to make sure nothing weird happened to him. It was at a church in a heavily Hispanic part of Austin. The church had built a new sanctuary, which was noticeably stripped of all the really cool statuary and suchlike...and had signs telling people not to light candles before the two remaining statues (Sacred Heart and Virgin Mary and Child) in both English and Spanish. The mass, not so weird. The scene of trying to snuff out aspects of Hispanic Catholic faith bothered me A LOT.

[Mice]

My parents were big into the charismatic renewal starting in the early 70s through the mid 80s. I remember that there was lots of music, lots of hands in the air, much praying over people and a huge emphasis on all manner of social justice. Masses were fun. Very personal and caring with a tremendous amount of acceptance and community. For a long time I thought that is how it was for everyone when they went to church.

[fun2beme]

A couple of decades ago, I remember tagging along with my boyfriend to a Charismatic mass just to make sure nothing weird happened to him. It was at a church in a heavily Hispanic part of Austin. The church had built a new sanctuary, which was noticeably stripped of all the really cool statuary and suchlike...and had signs telling people not to light candles before the two remaining statues (Sacred Heart and Virgin Mary and Child) in both English and Spanish. The mass, not so weird. The scene of trying to snuff out aspects of Hispanic Catholic faith bothered me A LOT.

I've gone to many Catholic churches and all the older ones were filled with statues and tons of candles (some to the point of being cluttered and tacky). I find that newer churches (like the one you referenced) are very minimalistic. I've been to churches in predominantly white areas, some in ethnically diverse areas, and one that was traditionally Caucasian but had an increasingly large Hispanic segment. In all these instances, I ran into the same "old church - lots of candles, et. al" and "new church - almost bare" scenarios so I never made the ethnic association. I don't know about the mindset of the people where your boyfriend went, so I'm curious as to why it was a way to reduce the Hispanic influence. Oddly enough, many of the churches I've been to offered a Mass in Spanish except for the one where the pastor himself recently came to the US from Mexico and was still trying to master the language. For some unknown reason, he felt very strongly about keeping the Masses English only.

[PennySycamore]

I think there may have been something of a split between factions of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the 70s/ early 80s. There was the faction centered on the Word of God community in Ann Arbor, Michigan and a more moderate faction based more at Notre Dame and at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh. The Word of God/ Mother of God in Maryland and University of Steubenville were extremely conservative and, IMO, the Word of God and Mother of God communities devolved into cults as did the People of Hope in New Jersey.