Michael Bates Courting!

[Ralar]

Yep, I had a roommate from Germany named Christin but she pronounced it as Christine. Her replacement happened to be another German girl named Kristin. She also pronounces it as Christine.

When I studied in Israel (a Jewish program, sponsored by "The Jewish Agency"), there was a woman from Switzerland named Christian (pronounced Kristee-ann or Kristee-ahn). She claimed to be Jewish, sometimes by birth sometimes via conversion, but no one believed she was Jewish. Her husband was the most secular person on our program and admitted they came to the program as a way take an extended trip to Israel. Wow, that was a segue. The point I intended to make was, I once knew a Swiss woman named Christian.

[HereticHick]

A note on Brandon Keilen and his family--

I am always discussed by how EXTREMELY anti-higher education Gothard/ATI followers like the Bates and Duggars have become. Jim Bob Duggar went to a real accredited college (but did not finish), and the Bates both graduated from a real accredited college. Chad Paine's father has a medical degree. Alyssa Bates is engaged to John Webster, whose father is a United States Member of Congress with a degree from a highly regarded engineering university.

But for the next generation, these ATI parents will only allow extremely religious and unaccredited Crown College, and most of their children receive no college/university training at all. Some take (often/usually unaccredited) online course, but they often do not get a degree. We see many examples, especially with the Duggars, of their actively, vocally, discouraging their children from attending any sort of higher education away from their home.

Anywho, here's another example-- Brandon Keilen is courting Michael Bates. His grandfather, Darrell Pope, died in 2009. According to numerous obituaries published in Michigan and Florida newspapers, Mr. Pope:

--Was a State Policeman and had "Masters Degree in Criminal Justice from Michigan State University and taught Criminal Justice at Michigan State University and Lansing Community College."

--"In 1984 Darrell was asked to come to Pensacola Christian College to develop/launch their Criminal Justice Program"

--"He accepted and he and his wife Jeri moved to Pensacola, FL to begin the program where he would continue on as a Professor of Criminal Justice for 23 years."

So, to summarize--Brandon Keilen's grandfather had a graduate degree and was a Professor at Pensacola Christian College (PCC) for decades.

But as far as we can tell, Brandon and his many siblings have not attend any sort of college/university. Isn't it strange that he and others have NOT been sent to Pensacola Christian??

[by the way, after years of resisting government accreditation, PCC is now actually accredited: https://www.pcci.edu/Academics/Accreditation.html)

It continues to amaze me that these ATI families choose to take big steps BACKWARDS in terms of education.

[Georgiana]

A note on Brandon Keilen and his family--

I am always discussed by how EXTREMELY anti-higher education Gothard/ATI followers like the Bates and Duggars have become. Jim Bob Duggar went to a real accredited college (but did not finish), and the Bates both graduated from a real accredited college. Chad Paine's father has a medical degree. Alyssa Bates is engaged to John Webster, whose father is a United States Member of Congress with a degree from a highly regarded engineering university.

But for the next generation, these ATI parents will only allow extremely religious and unaccredited Crown College, and most of their children receive no college/university training at all. Some take (often/usually unaccredited) online course, but they often do not get a degree. We see many examples, especially with the Duggars, of their actively, vocally, discouraging their children from attending any sort of higher education away from their home.

Anywho, here's another example-- Brandon Keilen is courting Michael Bates. His grandfather, Darrell Pope, died in 2009. According to numerous obituaries published in Michigan and Florida newspapers, Mr. Pope:

--Was a State Policeman and had "Masters Degree in Criminal Justice from Michigan State University and taught Criminal Justice at Michigan State University and Lansing Community College."

--"In 1984 Darrell was asked to come to Pensacola Christian College to develop/launch their Criminal Justice Program"

--"He accepted and he and his wife Jeri moved to Pensacola, FL to begin the program where he would continue on as a Professor of Criminal Justice for 23 years."

So, to summarize--Brandon Keilen's grandfather had a graduate degree and was a Professor at Pensacola Christian College (PCC) for decades.

But as far as we can tell, Brandon and his many siblings have not attend any sort of college/university. Isn't it strange that he and others have NOT been sent to Pensacola Christian??

[by the way, after years of resisting government accreditation, PCC is now actually accredited: https://www.pcci.edu/Academics/Accreditation.html)

It continues to amaze me that these ATI families choose to take big steps BACKWARDS in terms of education.

In the beginning, their argument had a point:

College is NOT for everyone

It's silly to incur tons of debt for a college education that you're getting only because you're expected to do so.

Jobs in trades are valuable, lucrative, and should be considered as viable options for young people.

However, it has morphed into:

College is bad and a waste of time

Education is not important

Trades are the only acceptable option for careers.

It isn't necessarily "backwards" if children of highly educated people choose not to pursue education. We don't expect all doctors' children to be doctors themselves. My parents both have grad degrees, and 2/3 of their children are pursuing trades. College just wasn't right for my brother or sister, and I didn't want to do grad school.

It is, however, hypocritical if highly educated people deride higher education and ignore the value it has brought to their lives. But I cannot say that I view the Fundie way of anti-education as any worse than the people who encourage their children to accumulate so much debt that they're up to their eyeballs for a degree they aren't even passionate about.

EDIT: I also think much of the "No College!" fundie mantra is a response to homeschooling and no debt. Most (almost all) do not educate their children well enough for those children to realistically pursue an accredited education. If college was "acceptable", then more people might be tempted to not homeschool in favor of actually giving their children a chance at college. Plus, they can't take out loans, so how will they pay? I think the fundie lifestyle prevents college from being a real option, and rather than admit that, they just pretend they don't want it.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think they are scared to introduce their children to anyone who does not believe like them, because once you meet someone (say, a gay person) and see that they are actually just human beings that you may like, you change your perspective. I live in Southern CA and I know people of all races and religions and sexual orientations and I love diversity, but I can see how a person raised in a rural baptist church would be scared of their children befriending or becoming heathens and burning in hell for eternity...

[Dandruff]

I thought Brandon was supposed to graduate soon from some seminary in Texas, but that actually adds to the question of why he didn't attend Pensacola Christian.

[marmalade]

Doesn't (or didn't) Brandon attend that same Gothard "university" that Chad Paine's brother "graduated from last December? It's not really college (or very college-like from what I recall of the program, other than lasting for a year or thereabouts). I thought I remember Kelly saying that Brandon didn't start the courtship until he'd graduated from this "program."

...the Bates both graduated from a real accredited college...

Small correction here: Yes, Gil and Kelly graduated from college. However, when they attended, it was more along the lines of Clown College. It only became accredited in the past decade or so.

[MissBitters]

Actually, Carson-Newman College (now University) has been accredited since the 1920s. It was issued a warning to lose its accreditation due to financial issues in 2010 but it was dropped in 2011. I grew up in the county it is located so I am pretty familiar with the school & know quite a few of my high school classmates chose to go there. I've heard it's a really good school but I never had a desire to attend due to the Southern Baptist connection.

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure some of his siblings have college degrees. I believe some of them went to Michigan State and some, including his sisters, have actual careers. There seem to be just a few of them who have delved really deep into ATI.

[HereticHick]

Thanks for the clarification MissBitters--I grew up just over the NC line from Carson-Newman and so of course had high school classmates who went there too. I always assumed that it was an accredited college, no different from other small Southern Baptist colleges-- I never considered it to be a bible college.

And let me clarify a little--its not that I think all the ATI kids should go to university, but the anti-higher education stance of Gothardism runs so deep that not many of them are getting to pursue an ACCREDITED technical education either. Very few of them (Ben Seewald is an exception, & frankly it doesn't look like he's taking his education very seriously right now) attend technical or community colleges. NOT ONE of the Duggar or Bates kids have been allowed to attend a community or technical college in person. If Josiah is interested in accounting, why isn't he taking courses at his local community college? And since the Gothard crowd is so politically conservative, I bet they think labor unions are satanic and would never let their kids be involved in any sort of union-sponsored apprenticeship program.

[divadivine]

Thanks for the clarification MissBitters--I grew up just over the NC line from Carson-Newman and so of course had high school classmates who went there too. I always assumed that it was an accredited college, no different from other small Southern Baptist colleges-- I never considered it to be a bible college.

And let me clarify a little--its not that I think all the ATI kids should go to university, but the anti-higher education stance of Gothardism runs so deep that not many of them are getting to pursue an ACCREDITED technical education either. Very few of them (Ben Seewald is an exception, & frankly it doesn't look like he's taking his education very seriously right now) attend technical or community colleges. NOT ONE of the Duggar or Bates kids have been allowed to attend a community or technical college in person. If Josiah is interested in accounting, why isn't he taking courses at his local community college? And since the Gothard crowd is so politically conservative, I bet they think labor unions are satanic and would never let their kids be involved in any sort of union-sponsored apprenticeship program.

Erin goes to classes at Clown College. On the campus.

[klavierspieler]

[by the way, after years of resisting government accreditation, PCC is now actually accredited: https://www.pcci.edu/Academics/Accreditation.html)

Quick side note: PCC only has national accreditation, not regional. It's better than nothing, but will still hamper people getting jobs/further education with some degrees. They only finally got around to doing it because after the economy tanked, they were hemorrhaging students.

Interestingly enough, it looks like Crown is working on getting accredited through TRACS as well: http://www.tracs.org/TRACS_Members_all.html I had no idea Crown was even seeking accreditation. I know when PCC received their accreditation it included all degrees issued up to a year (maybe two, but I think it was only one) before the accreditation became official. Depending on how long it takes Crown to finish up, and if they get to do something similar, I wonder if that means that Erin will actually wind up with a degree that's accredited in some way.

[gustava]

If it doesn't have accreditation by a mainstream agency, it's bogus. The end.

[HereticHick]

Kelly Bates says in a comment on her blog today that Brandon "graduates in November"-- does anyone know what he is graduating from?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Kelly Bates says in a comment on her blog today that Brandon "graduates in November"-- does anyone know what he is graduating from?

He goes to the ATI Ministry School:

ati.iblp.org/ati/students/opportunities/imi/

Which is $2100/semester and recently began allowing women and offers a "bachelors degree" in Biblical Studies

And has this totally normal quote:

Our Web site and brochures are purposely vague, because we cannot communicate the heart of IMI in print. Students need to know what they will experience at IMI, and that is best shared through personal interaction. To request further information or an application, please call us at

[NotALoserLikeYou]

And here's a bit about his "school"

recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/the-disease-catalogue/

[HereticHick]

Thanks, NotALoserLikeYou! That ATI school is in Texas, yes? So I am surprised that Brandon keeps visiting from his family home in Michigan. I believe one of the Paine boys is also going to the that school.

I like that Kelly seems to be implying that Michael & Brandon may not marry (if they do) until after he graduates. Good for them for taking their time. She did confirm that they aren't engaged yet.

[Ralar]

How is Brandon getting around this rule:

No courtships, engagements, or marriages are allowed during a student's enrollment in IMI. While these events may spring from friendships formed at IMI, they cannot and will not occur while one is a student here. We desire that all students focus on God and their relationship with Him during this time of training.

[Georgiana]

How is Brandon getting around this rule:

Special dispensation to date a daughter of a board member?

I wonder if Gil/Kelly were getting worried about ever finding someone for Michael and jumped at the chance? A quieter, less flashy girl like Michael is not well suited to an environment where men must love them from afar and then be moved to pursue them as she prefers not to stand out/be in the limelight. And she has a different look than Erin/Alyssa. She's much less beauty-queen-ish in her dress/hair.

In a normal environment, where people could meet and get to know her through various activities, she wouldn't have any trouble. But there's so little opportunity for of age men/women to interact in ATI/Gothardism that people probably overlook Michael.

[Ellimenopy]

How is Brandon getting around this rule:

I assumed that meant no pursuit of relationships on campus, since it is now co-ed. They can't really prevent people from waiting for each other at home.

[HereticHick]

I don't know-- this rule is ambiguous. Good catch, Ralar

[Joan of Snarc]

I don't know-- this rule is ambiguous purposely vague. Good catch, Ralar

FTFY

[isarhenne]

I'm confused! Is Michaela still courting?? Because they removed her "courting" from the family list in the wikipedia article! It was there until a few weeks ago.

Does anybody know what happened?

[singsingsing]

Just someone screwing around with Wikipedia, I guess. She is still courting (or at least was as of Kelly's blog comments a couple days ago).

[Formosa]

It's just someone messing with Wikipedia, saying blogs are no acceptable source of information, not even the official family blog. Silly of course.

[Seren Ann]

The people editing the wikipedia pages for the duggars and the bates are very annoying. Pris's wedding was filmed and broadcast on the show, yet they insist on removing any mention of it or her husband and son from the article about the show. O.o Whatever.

And what other sources than blogs are there about the Bate's lives ? *smh*