Burden to Burundi, Zealous for Zambia

[Palimpsest]

Snipped for space.

I've never had a problem w them or w customs.I've never had anything stopped,and nothing's been contaminated or out of date.the dates posted are always correct.that has been my experience anyway.you have to sign for the package at the door,or either pick it up at the PO.I think this is one of the better online pharmacies.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be rude and you may well be right about this being one of the better online pharmacies. I'm just suspicious of them in general. :)

[apple1]

Home & Health were showing re-runs of 17kac when Josh proposed to Anna and then the one where she went to visit him in Arkansas. They interviewed Ma and Pa Keller, who explained that John didn't have a job when he started courting Esther and that they weren't bothered because God would provide. :angry-banghead: The fact that they don't encourage their daughters to be financially independent really pisses me off anyway but the fact they don't even care if her future spouse can provide for her really takes the biscuit! Esther was doomed from the moment she started courting him!

(I self-identify as a Christian).

I am also a Grandma. It is my experience that, when the going gets rough (and my SIL has a "good" full-time job, and my daughter has a part time job, in addition to being Mommy), God usually provides additional help via Grandma and Grandpa. (and I am not saying that to be cynical or anti-religious; we do it because we actually CARE about our grandkids, and everybody could use a little help occasionally)

Oh, FWIW, I would NEVER allow my grandkids to be dragged around the country living in a popup camper as a "home". I'd call CPS first. On my own family, if that were the case. (I'd also be giving my daughter business cards for divorce attorneys).

[scc12]

Snipped for space.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be rude and you may well be right about this being one of the better online pharmacies. I'm just suspicious of them in general. :)

no problem at all. :)

[scc12]

Home & Health were showing re-runs of 17kac when Josh proposed to Anna and then the one where she went to visit him in Arkansas. They interviewed Ma and Pa Keller, who explained that John didn't have a job when he started courting Esther and that they weren't bothered because God would provide. :angry-banghead: The fact that they don't encourage their daughters to be financially independent really pisses me off anyway but the fact they don't even care if her future spouse can provide for her really takes the biscuit! Esther was doomed from the moment she started courting him!

wow,that's just really dumb of the Keller's.But then again they're in the cult,so what else can they think?

My dad would have wanted to know that,and the first q would have been "CAN YOU SUPPORT MY DAUGHTER?" And are you willing to work hard to do so?

God did say He gives His followers a sound mind so they can make sound decisions.Some just don't use their noggins,it appears.God didn't say 'sure,just dump it all in my lap and don't worry about a thing'.He said to use the brain I gave you.

If the Kellers are again dumping it all in God's lap without thinking,then I agree,the family stands no hope of them standing up for them.Zambia sounds very unhealthy,esp. for a pregnant woman and little children.

[Peukaloinen]

Hi! Is it really so that in the US they recommend using malaria preventives during long term stays also? Where I come from preventives are not considered safe for long term use, like when moving permanently to or staying for several years in malaria risk zone. Instead protective clothing and use of insect repellents and mosquito nets is recommended. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm a new poster.

[Palimpsest]

Oh, FWIW, I would NEVER allow my grandkids to be dragged around the country living in a popup camper as a "home". I'd call CPS first. On my own family, if that were the case. (I'd also be giving my daughter business cards for divorce attorneys).

I wish Ma and Pa Keller thought like this and the bolded made me laugh! I don't think it has much to do with being Christian, it is just plain common sense. The Kellers obviously lack that.

Re. CPS and the Shraders: We've discussed it in the past but I think they are unlikely to intervene with the situation. John could talk himself out of any neglect charges on the basis of religious freedom and claim they are just on a long vacation and have a home in another state. Homeschooling is legal and the children look clean, well-dressed and cared for. Unless something really awful happens to one of the kids CPS probably can't do anything. I do think John moves from state to state so often partly to avoid staying in one place long enough for a report to be filed and investigated though.

That said, IIRC both the Shrader and Rea families spent the winter living in the basement of their sending church in Oregon. Whether long-term residence in a church basement is legal or not, the kids were out of the pop-up camper for the winter at least and perhaps Esther managed to squeeze a little education in there.

[apple1]

... I do think John moves from state to state so often partly to avoid staying in one place long enough for a report to be filed and investigated though.

That said, IIRC both the Shrader and Rea families spent the winter living in the basement of their sending church in Oregon. Whether long-term residence in a church basement is legal or not, the kids were out of the pop-up camper for the winter at least and perhaps Esther managed to squeeze a little education in there.

I agree completely with the bolded.

I also am glad they actually spent the winter in a church basement (considering the alternative).

Aside: I have seen more than a few church basements. The thought of children having their relatively-long term home in one makes me sad (no snark here).

[Justme]

Did they ever own a home, or did they just rent? Why couldn't they stay there while he begged for money?

[Palimpsest]

Hi! Is it really so that in the US they recommend using malaria preventives during long term stays also? Where I come from preventives are not considered safe for long term use, like when moving permanently to or staying for several years in malaria risk zone. Instead protective clothing and use of insect repellents and mosquito nets is recommended. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm a new poster.

Hi and welcome to FJ!

That is a very good question and my answer is -- I don't know! I've looked at a lot of different US websites and travel advisories and they've all recommended taking malaria preventives for stays up to a year long. At least all the ones I've looked at so far do. Given the side-effects of many of the preventives I can see why they aren't recommended for long-term use.

We have discussed insect repellants and mosquito nets a bit. Do you live in a malaria risk zone? Can you share more information, please?

When I grew up in Africa (back when dinosaurs roamed the hills and John Shrader was a mere twinkle in his father's eye) we did take preventives long-term when in malaria zones in W. Africa. In those days it was Daraprim. We also had mosquito nets and spritzed every room in the house every single evening with DDT. No-one knew how carcinogenic and destructive to the environment DDT was then. It was still the miracle insecticide and people really resisted rumors about it being unsafe well into the 70s.

When we moved to the highlands of E. Africa we only took Daraprim if we planned to travel to malarial regions. There were fewer resistant strains and variants of malaria then, but I only ever had one mild bout of malaria and lived in Africa on and off for over 16 years.

[nausicaa]

Did they ever own a home, or did they just rent? Why couldn't they stay there while he begged for money?

I'm guessing the reason they couldn't stay living at home is because the churches he needed to visit for potential donations were far flung, and just Esther staying home with the kids wasn't an option since a) she is under his authority and therefore isn't believed to be competent enough to make many decisions on her own (as would be required in a long distance relationship), b) showing off all the kids encourages people to donate more money, and c) I don't think it has ever occurred to John that other people are not just extras in his own life and that he might need to consider what is best for them.

[Palimpsest]

Did they ever own a home, or did they just rent? Why couldn't they stay there while he begged for money?

John is very proud of the fact that he was once a home-owner. He is such a wonderful provider! :cracking-up:

He seems to forget that when he bought the house he posted publicly about how very grateful he was for the financial help they were given by family members. He certainly couldn't have managed it on his earnings. We also don't know whether he bought it debt-free. I doubt it.

Of course, that post is now deleted along with lots of other embarrassing stuff!

Apparently part of this IFB missionary "deputation" thingie is that selling your home and going on the road is required. Perhaps to demonstrate that you are willing to fund a part of your mission yourself? Perhaps to prove that you really trust God to provide? I don't know.

The house was in the Dalles, Oregon. I think people here who know the area decided that he didn't make much from the sale, but it was enough to buy the first minibus and pop-up camper. He has since successfully grifted a newer more reliable vehicle. I have to give John credit -- he is a truly talented leech.

[uber frau]

I'm guessing the reason they couldn't stay living at home is because the churches he needed to visit for potential donations were far flung, and just Esther staying home with the kids wasn't an option since a) she is under his authority and therefore isn't believed to be competent enough to make many decisions on her own (as would be required in a long distance relationship), b) showing off all the kids encourages people to donate more money, and c) I don't think it has ever occurred to John that other people are not just extras in his own life and that he might need to consider what is best for them.

This times eleventy.

I've always suspected the sale of the house came about because he couldn't keep up the repayments what with him being unwilling to work and all.

[Palimpsest]

I just remembered that a poster called klavierspieler had some very good background information and insights into IFB deputations and Bobby Bonner/I AM Ministeries in Zambia earlier in the thread. She hasn't posted here for a while though.

If you are interested, her posts start here on page 8 -- scroll down the page for her name. There are 3 longish posts in total.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18815&start=140

[Peukaloinen]

Thank you Palimpsest for welcoming me, and thanks also for your very interesting answer!

I don't live in the malaria risk zone - as a matter of fact I live pretty much as far from it as one can get, in Finland. But I have a BA in African studies and have friends who have lived in Afica for extended periods of time. I am by no means an expert on anything, since nowadays I'm not as involved in Africa-related matters as I used to be, but that's my background and I guess it also explains why I find Shader's project interesting.

Daraprim, as you probably know, is no longer considered an effective preventative in sub-Saharan Africa because P. falciparum has developed a resistance in many places. I suppose resistance is the key thing here, as many of the previous preventives can no longer be used, and the new ones are not deemed safe to use for extensive periods. With regards to the mosquito netting and insect repellents the recommendation they give here is pretty much to bathe oneself, one's clothes and one's surroundings with repellent that has 30-50% concentration of DEET. Obviously it is also recommended to stay mostly indoors after dark and when necessary to go outdoors to cover oneself from head to toe with DEET-saturated clothing.

The thing with the Shrader case is I guess the fact that most of the available guidelines with regards to malaria prevention are not made with a case like theirs in mind. The guidelines are meant for cases where the person moving to, say, Zambia is an adult with a normal immune system and basic health, who has a sound nutritional background and an eventual access to medical care of some standards. The Shrader children do not fit into this picture and I guess that's what makes it hard to figure the whole thing out.

[gustava]

Thank you Palimpsest for welcoming me, and thanks also for your very interesting answer!

I don't live in the malaria risk zone - as a matter of fact I live pretty much as far from it as one can get, in Finland. But I have a BA in African studies and have friends who have lived in Afica for extended periods of time. I am by no means an expert on anything, since nowadays I'm not as involved in Africa-related matters as I used to be, but that's my background and I guess it also explains why I find Shader's project interesting.

Daraprim, as you probably know, is no longer considered an effective preventative in sub-Saharan Africa because P. falciparum has developed a resistance in many places. I suppose resistance is the key thing here, as many of the previous preventives can no longer be used, and the new ones are not deemed safe to use for extensive periods. With regards to the mosquito netting and insect repellents the recommendation they give here is pretty much to bathe oneself, one's clothes and one's surroundings with repellent that has 30-50% concentration of DEET. Obviously it is also recommended to stay mostly indoors after dark and when necessary to go outdoors to cover oneself from head to toe with DEET-saturated clothing.

The thing with the Shrader case is I guess the fact that most of the available guidelines with regards to malaria prevention are not made with a case like theirs in mind. The guidelines are meant for cases where the person moving to, say, Zambia is an adult with a normal immune system and basic health, who has a sound nutritional background and an eventual access to medical care of some standards. The Shrader children do not fit into this picture and I guess that's what makes it hard to figure the whole thing out.

Hi and Welcome....

Last spring, I had the pleasure of visiting in Helsinki with another Finnish FJer. You might pop over to the FJ meetup page, and see if the two of you are near each other.

[Peukaloinen]

Really? Thanks, I'll do that!

[klavierspieler]

I just remembered that a poster called klavierspieler had some very good background information and insights into IFB deputations and Bobby Bonner/I AM Ministeries in Zambia earlier in the thread. She hasn't posted here for a while though.

If you are interested, her posts start here on page 8 -- scroll down the page for her name. There are 3 longish posts in total.

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewto ... &start=140

I'm still around. I work strange hours and it's sometimes all I can do to keep up with reading, so I don't post much, but I'm usually around somewhere. :)

[scc12]

I thought it was posted somewhere..or maybe I read it somewhere..that family members from both sides of the family...Kellers inc.,got together and helped john buy the house.Idk if it was 100% paid for,but iirc,he did have some help.

I'm wondering why he couldn't work as a pastor,or asst. pastor.I think he was one at one time?

[SisiL78]

I recall seeing The Shrader house in a post on FB a long time ago. It was a basic manufactured home on some sort of cinderblock foundation. I'd guess 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, 1200 square feet.

THe property was clearly on the outskirts of something, no neighbors and nothing that looked like landscaping. Looking on Zillow I'd guess that their house was worth 120k tops, maybe quite a bit less b/c the houses on zillow looked like they had someone tending to the landscape and renovating the interior (you can renovate a mobile home and do things like put in an updated kitchen).

I don't recall even seeing garage or other outbuilding on their property.

Even if they walked away from the house with 80-100k (which is doubtful) I'd guess that John has blown through it all, or is hoarding it somewhere away from Esther and the kids. His level of greed and laziness would make me believe that he would never spend it on his family's well being.

[anjulibai]

Say, because I'm weird and like patterns, I wrote down how often Esther has a baby, and it seems that she has 2-3 in back to back years, then skips a year, then has babies back to back again. If she repeats this pattern until she's in her early 40s, she'll have 6 more after the baby she's pregnant with now (more if she goes into her mid-40s). That's 15 kids at least.

Are they really going to be living like this for the next 10 years? Are they going to raise 15 kids in Zambia?

I keep thinking about this, and wondering if they've really thought about the logistics of what they are doing. I mean, I know they don't think things through and they don't prepare well, but it can't have escaped their notice that they will likely end up with umpteen kids.

Can it?

[Trynn]

No silly, they don't expect to RAISE 15 kids... They expect some of them to die first.

[anjulibai]

If that is truly their plan, then.....well, I'm not even sure what to say to that though. :(

[Ellimenopy]

Say, because I'm weird and like patterns, I wrote down how often Esther has a baby, and it seems that she has 2-3 in back to back years, then skips a year, then has babies back to back again. If she repeats this pattern until she's in her early 40s, she'll have 6 more after the baby she's pregnant with now (more if she goes into her mid-40s). That's 15 kids at least.

Are they really going to be living like this for the next 10 years? Are they going to raise 15 kids in Zambia?

I keep thinking about this, and wondering if they've really thought about the logistics of what they are doing. I mean, I know they don't think things through and they don't prepare well, but it can't have escaped their notice that they will likely end up with umpteen kids.

Can it?

Honestly, - and I feel lurid even saying this - I'm kind of surprised there aren't more psychotic episodes in fundie-ism. I cannot imagine anything more depressing than raising dozens of kids in these kinds of conditions. I just... I don't know where these women get the strength to trudge through another damn day. I have ONE toddler and he's kicking my ass. But I have a husband who's considerate, a home that's stable, we know that soon our baby-making days will be done, and this is just a season of our lives. I cannot imagine waking up to that day after day, adding more babies... for TWENTY YEARS. That is absolutely fucking insane. Why do we not see more anxiety disorders? Psychotic breaks? Are they there and just not blogged about?

[anjulibai]

Honestly, - and I feel lurid even saying this - I'm kind of surprised there aren't more psychotic episodes in fundie-ism. I cannot imagine anything more depressing than raising dozens of kids in these kinds of conditions. I just... I don't know where these women get the strength to trudge through another damn day. I have ONE toddler and he's kicking my ass. But I have a husband who's considerate, a home that's stable, we know that soon our baby-making days will be done, and this is just a season of our lives. I cannot imagine waking up to that day after day, adding more babies... for TWENTY YEARS. That is absolutely fucking insane. Why do we not see more anxiety disorders? Psychotic breaks? Are they there and just not blogged about?

I averaged it out and Esther has a baby every 17 and a half months. I can't imagine adding another baby that often. I would drive me crazy....I mean, I genuinely think I'd have to be admitted.

[uber frau]

I think it just becomes the way life *is* for them. I think it's a bit like when you start working full time. At first it feels like a massive deal and you come home physically exhausted. But after a few months you hit your stride and adapt and getting out of the house at seven every morning isn't so hard after all.

I have three kids and I care for other ppls kids regularly (nothing in comparison to the fundies but a whole different ball game from just one or even two). But this is how it seems to look to me: When you have one kid it's hard because its different and it's something you've never had to do but it's actually physically possible to meet everyone's needs and that tends to become your standard. When you have the second it's hard because suddenly you have to learn to triage. But you still have one hand for each kid. And it's still possible to keep everyone's major needs met for the most part. When you hit three or more you're officially outnumbered, you've worked out that you will never, ever sit down again and that you will only ever meet the most major needs. By the time you get to three it makes no difference to have another few. It's always chaotic, there's always at least two kids needing you NOW and there's always at least three things that need to be done at any one time to keep them all fed and clothed. It's a change of mindset and a change of standards.