Burden to Burundi, Zealous for Zambia

[Palimpsest]

Seems like you were just looking to put down what I posted.

The point I had was answering scc12's question. I agree with you about him not being able to "afford" to vax. And even though anti-malarials are not perfect, the US military, for example, gives them to personnel who are put in regions where malaria is endemic. So they at least have some benefit - and yes, probably, that would be another cost he didn't account for.

But then he hasn't accounted for the costs of basic food and shelter for his brood, either.

I'm not trying to put anyone down, but take it that way if you want. :shrug:

We have had long discussions over several threads about the need for multiple vax and using anti-malarials, and the ongoing cost and efficacy or lack thereof of anti-malarials. And John's refusal to respond to questions about immunizations.

That includes discusssion just a few pages back. So I was trying to save time, perhaps too tersely. We've had many anecdotes about people getting malaria while on preventives and many of those preventives cannot be taken by small children or during pregnancy.

I guess it shows that I've spent way too much time worrying about John's children over the course of many Shrader threads! I grew up as an MK in Africa myself and know it can be done safely, so I rather take John's irresponsibility towards his children personally.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think John is mentally ill, I hope he doesn't take them to Zambia where there are no family members to step in if his selfish, stupid ideas harm Esther or the kids. They could die out there.

[salex]

I think John is mentally ill, I hope he doesn't take them to Zambia where there are no family members to step in if his selfish, stupid ideas harm Esther or the kids. They could die out there.

Has anyone ever stepped in while they were here?

[ILoveJellybeans]

No, but I hope someone does if he goes any further. At home, if he did something that could kill his kids, surely someone he knows will step in and say its a bad idea, or call CPS...but in Zambia theres nothing anyone can do.

[Earthshine]

Hey John: If you can't afford vaccines and anti-malarials, you can't afford to be a missionary in Africa. Your wife and children aren't supposed to be sacrificial lambs upon the altar of your ego. If you believe your children are gifts from god, why do you treat them in such an uncaring manner? If you wouldn't have your wife abort a fetus, why would you risk your children in such a way? They are your responsibility. You need to take that very seriously.

[PennySycamore]

I don't know about those other malaria meds, doxycycline is crazy expensive. I think I paid $120 for a 10 supply last year at the Target pharmacy to treat Lyme disease.

[Miggy]

I agree with Earthshine: if you can't afford to vaccinate, you can't afford to go. I'm surprised any missionary group would let a family go to Africa unvaccinated.

[already hungover]

So I just finished reading The Mosquito Coast after seeing it mentioned in this thread. I'm pretty much speechless because I can see it happening to the Shraders but with a much worse ending.

[church_of_dog]

So I just finished reading The Mosquito Coast after seeing it mentioned in this thread. I'm pretty much speechless because I can see it happening to the Shraders but with a much worse ending.

Yes, a highly disturbing story.

And if you liked the book you would probably also like the movie. Harrison Ford at his best! Excellently done (and I'm still trying to figure out how to make a ceiling fan that will work like theirs…) :lol:

[niagarahauls]

Have we ever confirmed if the Schrader children receive the standard childhood schedule of vaccinations? It would seem difficult to remain compliant with multiple pediatrician visits a year with their vagabond lifestyle. If not the children would also be at risk to contract illnesses like polio, tetanus, diphtheria and measles.

[Palimpsest]

Have we ever confirmed if the Schrader children receive the standard childhood schedule of vaccinations? It would seem difficult to remain compliant with multiple pediatrician visits a year with their vagabond lifestyle. If not the children would also be at risk to contract illnesses like polio, tetanus, diphtheria and measles.

No, we have never confirmed that. We have always suspected that the Shraders are anti-vax because so many of that crowd are. He has asked people to pray for his sick children and Esther's deliveries, but pediatricians have never been mentioned, IIRC.

Shrader has consistently ignored people questioning him about immunizations on Facebook. We aren't the only people worried!

[tkr322]

Did anyone see his latest post? That a missionary friend's kid has malaria? Maybe that will scare him into getting the pills for his own children.

[formergothardite]

Did anyone see his latest post? That a missionary friend's kid has malaria? Maybe that will scare him into getting the pills for his own children.

He seems rather hopeful that one of his kids will die, so I don't think that he can be scared into buying them. I think the only way he will is if he is forced.

[Palimpsest]

I don't know about those other malaria meds, doxycycline is crazy expensive. I think I paid $120 for a 10 supply last year at the Target pharmacy to treat Lyme disease.

Rather off-topic: By sheer coincidence I was pricing doxycycline yesterday. There was a major shortage of both doxy and tetracycline last year due to manufacturing problems and the prices skyrocketed. Per the CDC, that crisis was resolved for doxy in January 2014 and the prices are going down again. Tetracycline is still on the "shortages" list though.

If you need doxy again, the cheapest I found it yesterday was the generic at Costco - with my membership discount and a AAA discount. I need it because one of my dogs just had a low positive titer for a Tick Bourne Disease (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever :shock:). My pup is asymptomatic so far and has probably just been exposed rather than having active RMSF, thank goodness, but we are giving him a course of doxy just in case.

My dogs definitely get better care than John Shrader's kids. :(

[scc12]

Rather off-topic: By sheer coincidence I was pricing doxycycline yesterday. There was a major shortage of both doxy and tetracycline last year due to manufacturing problems and the prices skyrocketed. Per the CDC, that crisis was resolved for doxy in January 2014 and the prices are going down again. Tetracycline is still on the "shortages" list though.

If you need doxy again, the cheapest I found it yesterday was the generic at Costco - with my membership discount and a AAA discount. I need it because one of my dogs just had a low positive titer for a Tick Bourne Disease (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever :shock:). My pup is asymptomatic so far and has probably just been exposed rather than having active RMSF, thank goodness, but we are giving him a course of doxy just in case.

My dogs definitely get better care than John Shrader's kids. :(

https://www.inhousepharmacy.biz/p-143-d ... cline.aspx

is this any less? I order from them all the time for different things,for many yrs,and they've always been prompt and reliable.no script needed,either.I hope John reads here.

[Trynn]

He seems rather hopeful that one of his kids will die, so I don't think that he can be scared into buying them. I think the only way he will is if he is forced.

Well, if I was overwhelmed by 8 1/2 children, and wasn't particularly find if them, maybe I'd want... No, no I wouldn't, but I can see how someone who feels powerless in such a situation might.

This folks, is why birth control is a good idea. And I don't feel too sorry for them, since they are, after all, in a first world country with access to at least rudimentary forms of BC such as condoms.

[Rebelwife]

https://www.inhousepharmacy.biz/p-143-d ... cline.aspx

is this any less? I order from them all the time for different things,for many yrs,and they've always been prompt and reliable.no script needed,either.I hope John reads here.

You can order doxy and other antibiotics without a prescription? That's kind of scary to me, to be honest. Overuse of antibiotics is a huge thing of mine, though, especially because I'm allergic to 3 classes of abx and I'm always scared that there won't be something I can use if I need it. I won't even buy anti-bacterial soap. (I'm also the total opposite of a germaphobe, though - hygiene theory all the way!)

[nellautumngirl]

Well, if I was overwhelmed by 8 1/2 children, and wasn't particularly find if them, maybe I'd want... No, no I wouldn't, but I can see how someone who feels powerless in such a situation might.

This folks, is why birth control is a good idea. And I don't feel too sorry for them, since they are, after all, in a first world country with access to at least rudimentary forms of BC such as condoms.

Oh yes, John must be so overwhelmed with these children his wife feeds, clothes, teaches, probably tries to think of cheap ways to occupy all day while he acts like an overgrown boy with his flight lessons and his crazy, dangerous ideas. Esther would have a reason to be overwhelmed, not him.

[Justme]

In the comments section, Johnny said he posted an update. I don't see one. Perhaps he posted it "private". :roll: Sure, get every one upset about the little kid's illness, ask for prayers, then keep the progress private....

[scc12]

You can order doxy and other antibiotics without a prescription? That's kind of scary to me, to be honest. Overuse of antibiotics is a huge thing of mine, though, especially because I'm allergic to 3 classes of abx and I'm always scared that there won't be something I can use if I need it. I won't even buy anti-bacterial soap. (I'm also the total opposite of a germaphobe, though - hygiene theory all the way!)

yes,you can order from overseas places and it's legal in the US,as long as it's for personal use,and for no more than a 3 mo. supply.

I'm not advocating anyone order arbitrarily w/out a script,only that it might be a less expensive way to get what is needed.The poster didn't state the price of doxy,so idk.Just putting it out there.

In John's case,script or no,I would rather see this family protected somehow,as long as he studies up on what the proper dose is for malaria.but I think his case is exceptional.I think most parents of small children wouldn't even think of taking them overseas w/out the proper protection.

[Palimpsest]

yes,you can order from overseas places and it's legal in the US,as long as it's for personal use,and for no more than a 3 mo. supply.

I'm not advocating anyone order arbitrarily w/out a script,only that it might be a less expensive way to get what is needed.The poster didn't state the price of doxy,so idk.Just putting it out there.

In John's case,script or no,I would rather see this family protected somehow,as long as he studies up on what the proper dose is for malaria.but I think his case is exceptional.I think most parents of small children wouldn't even think of taking them overseas w/out the proper protection.

I'm with Rebelwife on the over-use of antibiotics and anti-bacterial soaps! I'm allergic to penicillin and related drugs, but luckily there are plenty of other antibiotics that I can take.

AFAIK, ordering drugs from outside the US is more quasi-legal than legal. There is definitely a loophole for the personal use/3 month supply bit but you are "supposed" to have a prescription on file at the supplying pharmacy (so-called "rogue" pharmacies don't require that) and the incoming drugs have to go through customs. I'm not saying the link Scc12 gave is rogue per se, but many sources are not reliable. As prices for drugs increase in the US and people want drugs not approved in the US or for off-label use, more and more people are ordering them from overseas and customs is getting overwhelmed.

It is a risk though. I know people who have ordered from overseas and either the drugs don't arrive at all or they aren't the right drug, the drugs are contaminated or out of date, or they are stopped at customs. The doxy prices at the link Scc12 gave are less than half the price per pill than Costco with my discounts certainly, but I only need a ten day course for my pup not a 3 month supply! I think it is too risky personally, but it might work for Shrader.

[Palimpsest]

In the comments section, Johnny said he posted an update. I don't see one. Perhaps he posted it "private". :roll: Sure, get every one upset about the little kid's illness, ask for prayers, then keep the progress private....

The update was posted on Doug Hammett's FB and John gave a link to Hammett. I'm rather glad John's flounce was so short. I like keeping track of him.

Just to show that John Shrader is not alone in his delusions, meet the Barnhouse family, missionaries in Kitwe, Zambia and connected to the Bonner's dogfood IAMs Mission. It was their youngest child, 5 year old "Tiny" Barnhouse, who had malaria (they think a resistant strain) and also pneumonia. He seems to be recovering.

I will say that David Barnhouse made 5 preliminary trips to Zambia and seems to have had a better basic plan than John, but he spent a year dragging his 4 underage kids to church after church on "deputation" too. These people are all nuts.

visionzambia.com/

[scc12]

I'm with Rebelwife on the over-use of antibiotics and anti-bacterial soaps! I'm allergic to penicillin and related drugs, but luckily there are plenty of other antibiotics that I can take.

AFAIK, ordering drugs from outside the US is more quasi-legal than legal. There is definitely a loophole for the personal use/3 month supply bit but you are "supposed" to have a prescription on file at the supplying pharmacy (so-called "rogue" pharmacies don't require that) and the incoming drugs have to go through customs. I'm not saying the link Scc12 gave is rogue per se, but many sources are not reliable. As prices for drugs increase in the US and people want drugs not approved in the US or for off-label use, more and more people are ordering them from overseas and customs is getting overwhelmed.

It is a risk though. I know people who have ordered from overseas and either the drugs don't arrive at all or they aren't the right drug, the drugs are contaminated or out of date, or they are stopped at customs. The doxy prices at the link Scc12 gave are less than half the price per pill than Costco with my discounts certainly, but I only need a ten day course for my pup not a 3 month supply! I think it is too risky personally, but it might work for Shrader.

I've never had a problem w them or w customs.I've never had anything stopped,and nothing's been contaminated or out of date.the dates posted are always correct.that has been my experience anyway.you have to sign for the package at the door,or either pick it up at the PO.I think this is one of the better online pharmacies.

[Violet]

Home & Health were showing re-runs of 17kac when Josh proposed to Anna and then the one where she went to visit him in Arkansas. They interviewed Ma and Pa Keller, who explained that John didn't have a job when he started courting Esther and that they weren't bothered because God would provide. :angry-banghead: The fact that they don't encourage their daughters to be financially independent really pisses me off anyway but the fact they don't even care if her future spouse can provide for her really takes the biscuit! Esther was doomed from the moment she started courting him!

[Palimpsest]

^^^^^

As we suspected, Ma and Pa Keller are not likely to step in to help Esther and the grandchildren. God will provide. :roll:

I was browsing the Barnhouse prayer letters because they are more experienced in Zambia than Shrader and Rea, and John and David probably see them as role models. It is enough to make me weep tears of fustration. I had it wrong -- Stephen, the second youngest child, had the nasty bout with malaria, not "Tiny."

There is this in special prayer requests:

*Health for our family. So far, I have had malaria five times and Nathan once, but, praise the Lord, the rest of the family has faired better in that area. We often battle Giardia, and although it won’t kill you, it certainly makes you think you are going to die.

visionzambia.com/special-edition-just-a-couple-of-extras/

They have been in Zambia for 2 years. If Dad has had malaria 5 times then he is almost certainly not taking preventives -- they are not that ineffective. The children may be less at risk because Mommy Barnhouse is conscientious about applying Deet on the kids, they are indoors at night, and I hope they sleep under insecticide treated mosquito nets. However, Daddy David, 5 times, Nathan once, and little Stephen was just a very sick little boy -- so seven cases of malaria in 2 years in one family. Fanbloodytastic.

Then there is Giardia. They "often battle it!" Oh, please!

The Barnhouses need to scrub their house thoroughly from top to bottom, improve personal hygeine in the whole family, boil all their drinking water for at least 1 minute because it may be contaminated, and use boiled water to wash fruit and veg and to brush their teeth. Prayers are not enough when dealing with Giardia.

Giardia parasites are hardly limited to sub-Saharan Africa. You get it by contact with feces, drinking contaminated water or eating contaminated food. Giardia causes horrible explosive diarrhea. It can be fatal in small children and infants (dehydration) and is not good at all for pregnant women. It can also become chronic with long-term effects.