Boy Scouts Forbid Fat Kids to Attend Jamboree

[treemom]

What about Scouts with physical limitations that preclude them the same activities as the ones the BSA says fat kids can't do? Scouts who use mobility devices, live with visual impairments... There are, according to the [link=http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/SpecialNeedsInformationSheet.pdf]BSA's own fact sheet[/link], 100,000 Scouts with special needs. Are they being told they're not good enough for this Jamboree? Do they or their parents have to go begging from doctors for permission to attend? Or it it just the fat Scouts who've been told to stay away?

They go, but still must pass the health exam. Mobility devices, visual assistance, needing a caregiver does not cause them to fail the health exam.

[treemom]

scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Resources/MedicalFormFAQs.aspx

Here is the link to the Medical Form. It explains the health form requirements and there are links to the FAQs about safety, etc. Apparently , this information was available for over a year, possibly since 2010, regarding who could participate in the more intense types of outdoor events. It appears most of this is related to risk, insurance, preventing lawsuits for injury/death, etc.

Not thrilled with it, but understand it. It isn't something they just announced as people came to the event.

We registered our son in 2011, the info was given to us then. And it has been the standard for all other high adventure camps for at least a decade.

[treemom]

A couple of thoughts to the bolded:

* Lots of Scouting activities can cause injury or death, and none of them have to do with the amount of fat on a child's body. If the BSA were concerned about that, they wouldn't offer any wilderness experiences to their members, period.

* Generally when minors participate in organized activities like Scouting, the parent/guardian has to sign releases that absolve the organization from liability if their child is injured/killed so long as the organization didn't deliberately put the kids in danger (e.g., knowingly put them on a bus with no working brakes, knowingly feed them spoiled food, etc.). If there weren't such releases, very few school would offer field trips or organized sports, and organizations like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts would find too liable to keep their doors open. You can be sure that all the people under 18 at that Jamboree have a parent or guardian who signed lots of waivers and other legal documents before they were allowed to enter the Jamboree grounds.

They still have to carry liability insurance.

And yeah, we signed one waiver, want me to post it?

[treemom]

I'm a little torn here. 40 is a very high BMI. I think all the kids should be required to have a physical by a doctor to participate, if they want to actually be fair and not exclusive. I understand the real concerns about safety that they're trying to avoid. Assuming a kid with a bmi of 33 is in danger of a heart attack and someone with a BMI of 16 isn't is ridiculous. My BMI is in the low 20's and I know tons of people much larger than me who could kick my ass hiking or doing high ropes courses. Physicals for everyone going if it's that dangerous, I say.

They do have to have a physical. Want me to post a copy of my son's? There is far more than just a BMI...but a 40 plus BMI was an automatic exclusion.

[treemom]

I had a conversation last night with my brother-in-law about this. He's an Eagle Scout and was the youngest Scout to earn the title in his troop's history. He attended and fully participated in two BSA Jamborees: 1989 and 1993. He also was born with CTEV. During both Jamborees, the Scouts accommodated him, substituting alternative activities when he could not participate because of his use of a cane and leg brace. There were physical requirements for hikes and other activities, yes, and he had to get physicals and doctor's permission, yes, but in the end the Scouts accommodated him. They did not tell him to stay home.

He's no longer involved in Scouting. He, my husband, their father, and their grandfather - men with more than 60 years of combined service to the BSA - resigned their Eagle Scout awards as well as all of their merit badges, commendations, etc., back in the 90s in protest over the exclusion of gays. Scouting took a big step in the right direction in accepting gay Scouts, and it will take an even bigger step when gay adults can assume leadership roles within Scouting. Excluding certain Scouts from a seminal event like the Jamboree based on a calculation invented by a mathematician, who said himself that should not be used to measure fatness in an individual (let alone a person's overall health), is a massive, clumsy step backwards.

His jamboree was not at a BSA owned facility and not a high adventure base. It was probably at the national mall in Washington, D.C. A far, far cry from becthel, wv

[treemom]

This announcement to the world is a public shaming of overweight boys; they did not have to announce a set BMI limit which just puts a target on the back of those who have to stay home. The article that I read yesterday (http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Fa ... Boy-Scouts) says that "Nationally, about 17 percent of children ages 2 to 19 are considered obese — triple the rate from a generation earlier, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." 17 percent! That means that there are more obese Boy Scouts than there are atheist or gay scouts.

This could have been handled a lot more sensitively. I am another former GS who went to summer camp. Every year my doctor had to sign a release form that said I was fit enough to do X activity. It would have been easy enough for them to do the same. Or they could have had everyone pass a physical test in order to qualify such as hike 3 miles with a 50 pound backpack in one hour. The way the BS officials have handled this is disgusting. Any kid who really wants to go but is told "Nope. You are too fat." is going to be crushed.

I don't get the insensitive, do you even know how it was handled?

[treemom]

If they are worried that some scouts won't be able to handle the physical demands, they should have all scouts and adults pass a test. For example, what if everyone will have to walk a mile to the mess hall for each meal? Then everyone at the jamboree should be able to walk a set distance in a specific time.

BMI doesn't predict fitness.

They all must have a physical. And they all eat at their campsites.

[treemom]

Re:the announcement. The information about the easing of the restrictions was made in 2011, but recently lots of people have pushed for exceptions. They addressed it during their regular webinars with leaders.

Again, this is a significant easing of restrictions. When my kid gets back, I will ask him about how strenuous the 10 days was. He won't be back until next week though.

But this was not a surprise, it was not new. It follows the same guidelines that many other organizations use. The BsA has lots of issues, but this isn't one I think is discriminatory or exclusionary. There were many, many resources and opportunities and ultimately it was the legal liability that set this standard, which is far lower than the other three high adventure bases.

[freedomjesusfootball]

BMI of 40 isn't fat/chubby. It is morbidly obese. Morbid meaning they probably have multiple other problems associated with their obesity. And having all the other kids go on a hike while the morbidly obese ones sit around a campfire isn't going to be inclusive, either. I don't think there is an easy solution for this. I am sure it has something to do with the scouts' liability insurance rates.

[silverspoons]

My husband's old boss was a scout leader and 2 of my husband's cousins were in his troop. They both had asthma and were very overweight(over 40 BMI). My husband's boss tried very hard to make every effort to make sure these 2 boys could get their arrow of light and eagle if they wanted to. He had to make sure they had 2 extra people on every hike and every hike these 2 boys could not complete. That meant the 2 extra people would bring the boys to the bottom and call parents to get them. Both boys also never completed one overnight campout which meant having to send someone down from the campsite and drive the kids home sometimes hours in the middle of the night. My husband's boss worked with the boys for 6 years and countless failed attempts(while the rest of the troop was held back since there were only 4 other boys) when the parents finally admitted the boys physically could not handle the hikes and campouts. I was very impressed with my husband's old boss as a volunteer, who was a business owner, had 4 kids of his own, to spend countless hours over 6 years trying to help these boys succeed. During the years the boys only gained more weight which made the asthma worse and they got frequent infections as well.

The troop makes it clear if you are over 40 BMI you need a physical. I don't think this is unreasonable because so many times these campouts and events are where there is very little cell service. My good friend has a son who is big stocky and tall for his age. At age 10 he is wearing a size 13 shoe and is 5' 6" in the 4th grade. His BMI is 41. His mom got him a complete physical and he was cleared to go to all activtes. Unlike the previous mentioned cousins this boy plays 3 sports, lifts weights and has a lot of muscle. People freak out when there is a death of a scout so the organization is trying to make sure kids are healthy enough to do these activites.

I took my son out for a totally different reason. I appreciated some of the oppurtunites he got as a scout, like getting to fly in stunt airplane, visiting national parks, and friendships. It was the lack of gun safety that scared me and I didn't feel like a fight with leadership would help.

[Dixiebelle]

I'm curious what you mean by lack of gun safety. I have been very pleased in that respect so I am just curious...

[ems]

What about Scouts with physical limitations that preclude them the same activities as the ones the BSA says fat kids can't do? Scouts who use mobility devices, live with visual impairments... There are, according to the [link=http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/SpecialNeedsInformationSheet.pdf]BSA's own fact sheet[/link], 100,000 Scouts with special needs. Are they being told they're not good enough for this Jamboree? Do they or their parents have to go begging from doctors for permission to attend? Or it it just the fat Scouts who've been told to stay away?

Yeah, this. There are a lot of physical challenges kids might face, but this just seems to be too much calling out the fat kids, when instead they could either design their event to be more inclusive or design an alternative event.

I mean things like asthma affect kids of all weights and could pose a lot of problems with outdoor activities, and yet their focus seems to be entirely on a child's BMI.

[fakepigtails73]

I really hate the BMI index that is in use nowadays to tell if someone is overweight or not. I've seen people being classified as such that are far from looking overweight but it's their BMI that puts them there.

I know that there are a lot of people with weight probs in North America (and I say this as someone who while not overweight per se must be careful because I gain fast) and it is a public health situation...But to use BMI index as the main "qualifier" of obesity is wrong. It puts many people in the "fat" category when they really should not be in it.

All this is only my opinion, I'm not a health care worker nor do I work in kinesiology.

ETA: It sucks that some kids cannot attends the 2013 Jamboree due to being labeled overweight. BSA do all kinds of physical activities during that event; one would think that the more physical activities these same kids get to do the better it is for them and their health, no??? :think:

[treemom]

Yeah, this. There are a lot of physical challenges kids might face, but this just seems to be too much calling out the fat kids, when instead they could either design their event to be more inclusive or design an alternative event.

I mean things like asthma affect kids of all weights and could pose a lot of problems with outdoor activities, and yet their focus seems to be entirely on a child's BMI.

Except it isn't. Asthma is one of the things that has a potential to disqualify you from high adventure camps if it is uncontrolled. Same with lots of things.

Might I suggest someone actually look at the medical form before making sweeping judgements?

[treemom]

I really hate the BMI index that is in use nowadays to tell if someone is overweight or not. I've seen people being classified as such that are far from looking overweight but it's their BMI that puts them there.

I know that there are a lot of people with weight probs in North America (and I say this as someone who while not overweight per se must be careful because I gain fast) and it is a public health situation...But to use BMI index as the main "qualifier" of obesity is wrong. It puts many people in the "fat" category when they really should not be in it.

All this is only my opinion, I'm not a health care worker nor do I work in kinesiology.

Real BMI is a very good indicator, but not the quick calculation

[Peas n carrots]

BMI of 40 isn't fat/chubby. It is morbidly obese. Morbid meaning they probably have multiple other problems associated with their obesity. And having all the other kids go on a hike while the morbidly obese ones sit around a campfire isn't going to be inclusive, either. I don't think there is an easy solution for this. I am sure it has something to do with the scouts' liability insurance rates.

THIS and to Treemom.

There are always a few exceptions, but a BMI of 40 is not healthy. I'm not someone who agrees with using the BMI on individual terms either.

I agree the physical should trump all, but pretending that most people who are of a BMI that qualifies as morbidly obese is fine is ignoring the mountain of evidence the health problems associated with it.

I think it's a travesty yelling "FAT SHAMING" in this situation. Fat shaming is real, and it shouldn't be used in a situation where there are practical reasons why someone morbidly obese should be discouraged from undertaking certain activities. Save it for the media, certain industries etc where it is very, very real and don't water down the term.

[ADoyle90815]

THIS and to Treemom.

There are always a few exceptions, but a BMI of 40 is not healthy. I'm not someone who agrees with using the BMI on individual terms either.

I agree the physical should trump all, but pretending that most people who are of a BMI that qualifies as morbidly obese is fine is ignoring the mountain of evidence the health problems associated with it.

I think it's a travesty yelling "FAT SHAMING" in this situation. Fat shaming is real, and it shouldn't be used in a situation where there are practical reasons why someone morbidly obese should be discouraged from undertaking certain activities. Save it for the media, certain industries etc where it is very, very real and don't water down the term.

While I don't always agree with the BMI as a way to determine health as there are people in the overweight category who are actually really fit, as they have more muscle than fat, but a lot of muscle. I do think that someone with a BMI of 40+ is not likely to be in that category, as they're considered morbidly obese and probably have a high percentage of body fat. Someone with that high of a BMI is at risk for obesity related complications, so I wouldn't quite say that the Boy Scouts are fat shaming in this situation, as the last thing they want is for an obese scout to die while at the Jamboree. It's also likely that someone with a normal BMI could have an underlying heart condition and die from sudden cardiac arrest, but that's why everyone has to get a physical where those things can be screened.

[oddmountain]

I was an adult advisor for a group of 6 boys (and three more adults) at a BSA high adventure base (not the Summit) this summer and we had the same physical requirements. They do look at a lot more than weight. We had to turn the physicals in to our local council for review several months before we left. They flagged members of our crew for asthma (had to report his last attack), high blood pressure, and low body weight. In addition to the physical, the crew members flagged had to get an additional sign-off from their physicians. Once at the base, the medical staff takes your blood pressure and does a brief physical. If your blood pressure is over a certain level and will not come down after hydration and rest, you are not allowed to leave base camp and do any activities. Our crew's biggest issue was a boy with low BMI as boys are limited to carrying 1/3 their body weight and he weighed so little that he was not able to carry his gear.

We were told two years in advance about the weight restrictions, but also told that the camp would work with you and your doctor if you gave them notice. The year before, an adult could not get her doctor to sign off because of her weight but the doctor and BSA set a goal weight and she worked to reach it before leaving. Blood pressure is not negotiable, however. I know of a kid with a BMI of 43 that was able to go to the jamboree because his doctor signed off on his physical fitness level.

I don't know about the Summit, but there was limited cell phone service in many areas of the high adventure base I attended. We did end up having two small medical emergencies. Both times, we had to hike 2-3 hours to get to a staffed area and then wait several more hours for transportation back to base for treatment. This wasn't staff negligence, we were simply that far backcountry. High adventure bases are physically demanding. I think everyone who attends one is shocked at how much so.

[Brittany15]

One of the problems is that if your BMI is that high it is not safe for your heart to be doing something this physically demanding. Someone who is morbidly obese needs to lose weight in a safe way. Starting with changes in diet and controlled exercise. Spending a week walking miles and miles a day is not safe. Yes it would be wonderful to live in a world were everyone could be included in all activities regardless of their bodies, but this is not the case. It is a matter of safety that their is some exclusion in this. While I am terribly sad for the kids who were excluded, I do believe it was for their own safety.

[OkToBeTakei]

THIS and to Treemom.

There are always a few exceptions, but a BMI of 40 is not healthy. I'm not someone who agrees with using the BMI on individual terms either.

I agree the physical should trump all, but pretending that most people who are of a BMI that qualifies as morbidly obese is fine is ignoring the mountain of evidence the health problems associated with it.

I think it's a travesty yelling "FAT SHAMING" in this situation. Fat shaming is real, and it shouldn't be used in a situation where there are practical reasons why someone morbidly obese should be discouraged from undertaking certain activities. Save it for the media, certain industries etc where it is very, very real and don't water down the term.

So totally agree with this. I have really been struggling with this catch all shaming thing that is the answer to any criticism to weight, clothing, sex, name your issue.

It seems to be the default answer to all unpopular criticism. I really do not see how that in any way helps debunk prejudice or support the issues society has.

In this example it is easy to say that the children are fat shamed without for one moment looking at the reason why. Just say 'fat shamed' but not actually think what that means for a 14 yr old 18 stone child. Talking the talk is not helping that child.

[treemom]

So totally agree with this. I have really been struggling with this catch all shaming thing that is the answer to any criticism to weight, clothing, sex, name your issue.

It seems to be the default answer to all unpopular criticism. I really do not see how that in any way helps debunk prejudice or support the issues society has.

In this example it is easy to say that the children are fat shamed without for one moment looking at the reason why. Just say 'fat shamed' but not actually think what that means for a 14 yr old 18 stone child. Talking the talk is not helping that child.

I will say in our troop they really work hard with the scouts to be able to fit within the medical requirements for all our stuff. They really work on a goal and a plan to be able to meet the requirements for all the high adventure bases, all of which are physically challenging for the average American teen.

If I had not seen that in action, then the requirements might be disappointing. But I have, youth and adults alike.

Please forgive my drunken monkey typing. I has had beer

[samithemage]

I guess I just don't understand why they wouldn't pick a location that was accommodating to all scouts and have a variety of activities that would cover a vast difference in health. Not everything has to be 5 mile Ike's or sitting at camp with the other "fat" kids. Why not have fun and interesting activities for a wide range of abilities?

[Mango]

I guess I just don't understand why they wouldn't pick a location that was accommodating to all scouts and have a variety of activities that would cover a vast difference in health. Not everything has to be 5 mile Ike's or sitting at camp with the other "fat" kids. Why not have fun and interesting activities for a wide range of abilities?

No kidding.

I'm sorry, but being fat and getting frozen out of physical activities because 'they're too hard for you' is a really nasty cycle that just perpetuates itself for fat kids (and adults.) You 'have to exercise and eat right' but the consistant message that you're a fat pig if you sweat at a gym or 'holding everyone back' if you dare do even a MODERATELY active group activity, well.. yeah.

But oh, you only mean those DEATH FATS who are going to drop dead of heart attacks at the least little exertion, right? Exactly how do you think they got that way? I promise, it wasn't participating as much as they could in activities, without having to listen shaming and tut tutting about their fitness.

Mango

(Seriously, have you guys ever noticed that discount stores don't even CARRY anything that could be construed as workout clothes for plus sized women? Unless you count like, scrub pants, I guess.)

[DarkAnts]

If they are worried that some scouts won't be able to handle the physical demands, they should have all scouts and adults pass a test. For example, what if everyone will have to walk a mile to the mess hall for each meal? Then everyone at the jamboree should be able to walk a set distance in a specific time.

BMI doesn't predict fitness.

BMI is a good starting point. But, you have to have other measurements to go with it. This is where physical body measurements and heart stress tests come in. I think its important to have everyone go though these tests. People can be skinny but still unhealthy for physical activity.

As an aside, I wish the BSoA would take more precautions. I knew a boy scout who died in middle school. He was climbing rocks with friends and slipped. As a whole, I think the whole organization needs to be more mindful of hazardous activities. I was not able to ice skate at an ice skating ring that age in the girl scouts without a lot of paperwork and releases.

[Peas n carrots]

No kidding.

I'm sorry, but being fat and getting frozen out of physical activities because 'they're too hard for you' is a really nasty cycle that just perpetuates itself for fat kids (and adults.) You 'have to exercise and eat right' but the consistant message that you're a fat pig if you sweat at a gym or 'holding everyone back' if you dare do even a MODERATELY active group activity, well.. yeah.

But oh, you only mean those DEATH FATS who are going to drop dead of heart attacks at the least little exertion, right? Exactly how do you think they got that way? I promise, it wasn't participating as much as they could in activities, without having to listen shaming and tut tutting about their fitness.

Mango

(Seriously, have you guys ever noticed that discount stores don't even CARRY anything that could be construed as workout clothes for plus sized women? Unless you count like, scrub pants, I guess.)

This kind of reaction is exactly what I was talking about. As multiple posters have pointed out, if your physician gives the all-clear and your BMI is over 40 it sounds like the BSA reconsiders. I know not everyone with a high BMI is out if shape - I personally know a lot of body builders who are super fit but would likely qualify as obese under the current BMI standards. But let's be honest here - a lot of morbidly obese folks are out of shape and would be at elevated risk for a variety of issues. Especially in backwoods situations, that could get very serious, very quick.

Wouldn't it be a good goal to encourage an out of shape kid to use these kinds of activities to get in better shape so they can go? I honestly don't see how it's a better idea to let them go but have specific activities that would exclude them during the camp out.

At the end of the day, some things that don't sound hard on paper may kick you in the ass. A 3 mile hike doesn't sound hard, but it quickly becomes stressful when you have a lot of gear and technical terrain. The best solution was stated above - several months before the event work with the kid so they get in better shape and can participate. Sidelining them - whether by excluding the overweight kid to begin with or excluding them with "alternate" activities at the camp out - is not helping the kid's confidence at all.