Boy Scouts Forbid Fat Kids to Attend Jamboree

[2xx1xy1JD]

A BMI of 40 is quite seriously overweight, and there are likely to be risks associated with more intense sports. In the United States, waivers don't magically make all risk of lawsuits disappear. There would still be a huge risk, and frankly a huge fallout in general, if a Scout died at a jamboree under circumstances where it should have been clear that they were not medically fit to participate.

At the same time, one would expect an organization of their size and stature to offer programming that is accessible. Offer a more extreme course for those who want it, and a modified one for those with special needs or health issues.

[JesusFightClub]

I saw this, and lo, it was not mental. Incorrect idea, sure.

wild little fox, I totally agree that someone like you could do all the stuff, but I think a lot of BMI 40+ kids couldn't and no kid in the world knows his or her limitations.

So! A simple solution would be to give all the kids a check over when they are coming in, instead of banning them from coming. A fit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be fine to do everything. An unfit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be restricted in activities.

Same with disabilities. I've got a BMI of 23 and a foot which is absolutely fucked. If someone measured me by BMI I'd pass, but anyone medical who examines my foot would go "Whoa! That's absolutely fucked. You're skipping the 5 mile hike."

It's too much of a blunt instrument to be a good idea. Monitoring the Scouts in camp and as they come in seems a better one. That means the bigger kids can attend and have fun too, without feeling shamed in front of their mates.

[bsue]

It seems to me that the same thing could have been accomplished with a requirement for a physical and doctor sign-off (perhaps with a boy scout provided form detailing the activities), and it looks like they might have had that in place before anyway. Adding the BMI requirement just seems like a tone-deaf move given their recent difficulties and that it doesn't necessarily add any screening that the physical and doctor note didn't already. Did someone in their PR department approve this? I bet not!

Also, echoing others to ask why they couldn't have planned activities for ALL those who might not be able to participate in the more physically demanding activities for a variety of reasons. It seems like it would have both been a real opportunity to better serve a section of their membership while also demonstrating to the rest of the world their commitment to inclusivity.

[dairyfreelife]

I saw this, and lo, it was not mental. Incorrect idea, sure.

wild little fox, I totally agree that someone like you could do all the stuff, but I think a lot of BMI 40+ kids couldn't and no kid in the world knows his or her limitations.

So! A simple solution would be to give all the kids a check over when they are coming in, instead of banning them from coming. A fit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be fine to do everything. An unfit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be restricted in activities.

Same with disabilities. I've got a BMI of 23 and a foot which is absolutely fucked. If someone measured me by BMI I'd pass, but anyone medical who examines my foot would go "Whoa! That's absolutely fucked. You're skipping the 5 mile hike."

It's too much of a blunt instrument to be a good idea. Monitoring the Scouts in camp and as they come in seems a better one. That means the bigger kids can attend and have fun too, without feeling shamed in front of their mates.

I can't recall my bmi, but it's in the healthy range. So I'd pass that way, but I have a slight heart murmur and no known cause (had an EKG and echo done) and my breathing is not normal according to breath test I did. Not asthma, but I'm not breathing at the rate I should be. I also have horrible allergies, which affect my breathing as well. Serious exercise and I aren't friends as a result. I wouldn't be in the clear for a 5 mile hike because of this.

Simply, I agree with you and that's why they do physical exams for everyone for events and activities. BMI isn't the best measure of health at all, since very fit and active people can be considered overweight quite often with that measurement. 40 is very high for anyone though. Hopefully any child with such a high bmi will get into better health.

[Miggy]

My brother & his mates always found the radio tent to be the highlight of jamborees/jamborettes/mega10s. They learnt so much from the experts here that they came home and each built their own radio system in their shed to talk to each other. (All on farms and in an area that doesn't have mobile reception even now.) They would always say hikes were pointless because you could hike with your own troop anytime but radio tent only exists at major events. Before my daughter went to Jamboree he told her - don't do the stuff you do at home, do all the stuff that only exists at Jamboree.

Why can't the far boys play radio tent? Or pull apart and reassemble an internal combustion engine, as my daughter did?

[mockingbird]

I think requiring a physical specifically for the Jamboree (for every scout) would be more appropriate. This could allow doctors who actually know the kids to set appropriate limits for them and judge whether they should even attend in the first place, rather than an arbitrary standard by the BSA. I'm pretty sure when I was a Girl Scout counselor there was a special physical form for attending camp (like you would for pretty much any other overnight camp!). I also did a trip through national GS as a scout and I think I had to have a physical for that too.

I know BSA was in the news a few years ago because of the number of heat stroke/exhaustion cases at one of the jamborees (luckily if I remember right everyone recovered). It has a reputation with the local troops for being physically demanding just because of the time of year/weather added on top of the activities. But then again the scouts who normally go from my brother's troop are really into outdoors activities so that might factor into it. I don't know much about it (my parents have never let my brother attend one) but I hope there are also appropriate activities for disabled or less physically-active scouts who also want to attend.

[Dixiebelle]

My son did a high adventure trip this year. It's not all about weight, it's about passing the physical and meeting the high adventure criteria. Jamboree is not a regular Scout camp. I don't know why alternate activities aren't scheduled, but I know they usually are at Scout camps. This is a high adventure trip, so they are stricter - as they should be IMO.

[Coconut Flan]

Just a quick Google revealed that in 2005 three hundred scouts were treated for heat exhaustion at the annual jamboree. Possibly that began their quest for prevention. I'm not saying that they are going about it the right way, however. I seriously doubt all three hundred scouts were even somewhat overweight.

[stacyf]

I think one other thing to note is that this year there will be no shuttle buses or loop buses. Scouts and leaders will be walking miles a day just to get meals and to activities. I am not saying that adults who exercise and have high BMIs couldn't handle it but most obese children are not that overweight because they hike miles every day. I have a BMI of 32 and hike every weekend and walk every day, sometimes I hike with a 40lb pack. I get that you can be overweight and active. It was also noted that no scouts were turned away after applying but it sounds like no one with a BMI over 40 even bothered applying.

[dairyfreelife]

Just a quick Google revealed that in 2005 three hundred scouts were treated for heat exhaustion at the annual jamboree. Possibly that began their quest for prevention. I'm not saying that they are going about it the right way, however. I seriously doubt all three hundred scouts were even somewhat overweight.

Hopefully they're prepared for that this year as well since it's horribly hot in West Virginia right not. It's 9PM and it's 90F outside, feels like 93/94 and it's super muggy also. Hit a heat index of near 100 yesterday. I think it's slightly cooler at the Jamboree location than where I am, but not by much. It's supposed to in the 90s for the next several days as well and sticky. And they are staying in those canvas tents, so I can only imagine who miserable that will be.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Just a quick Google revealed that in 2005 three hundred scouts were treated for heat exhaustion at the annual jamboree. Possibly that began their quest for prevention. I'm not saying that they are going about it the right way, however. I seriously doubt all three hundred scouts were even somewhat overweight.

This announcement to the world is a public shaming of overweight boys; they did not have to announce a set BMI limit which just puts a target on the back of those who have to stay home. The article that I read yesterday (http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Fa ... Boy-Scouts) says that "Nationally, about 17 percent of children ages 2 to 19 are considered obese — triple the rate from a generation earlier, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." 17 percent! That means that there are more obese Boy Scouts than there are atheist or gay scouts.

This could have been handled a lot more sensitively. I am another former GS who went to summer camp. Every year my doctor had to sign a release form that said I was fit enough to do X activity. It would have been easy enough for them to do the same. Or they could have had everyone pass a physical test in order to qualify such as hike 3 miles with a 50 pound backpack in one hour. The way the BS officials have handled this is disgusting. Any kid who really wants to go but is told "Nope. You are too fat." is going to be crushed.

[Dixiebelle]

But did the Boy Scouts actually "announce" it? It's in the health form info, but so is a lot of other medical information that can keep a boy from attending certain activities. That's hardly an announcement; it's a message to the doctor to be sure to check for those things in order to pass the physical. As far as I can tell, unless I missed something, it's the media that has picked up on this and made sure everyone knows about it.

Just an aside, one of my boys flunked his BSA physical this year. He could not pass the eye exam. We had to do to the eye doctor and get a note from him saying it was OK for my son to participate. Maybe I should alert USA Today. :shrug:

ETA

Every year my doctor had to sign a release form that said I was fit enough to do X activity. It would have been easy enough for them to do the same.

That is exactly what they do. Here is the link to Part D of the health form relating to High Adventure camps. www.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/part_d.pdf Note there is a lot more there than weight restrictions.

[rward]

After all some things unfortunately have weight limits and to say they don't would be irresponsible. My brother and nephew are in the scouts and I know they do some physically gruelling challenges at times. Basically I think if the kids are given enough notice to lose the weight then it is a win/win all around. Basically like in all things in life it is the approach that is used.

Yeah, but it wasn't an issue until this year. So weight is dangerous, but only in 2013. Okay, then.

[Jinger Jar]

I had a conversation last night with my brother-in-law about this. He's an Eagle Scout and was the youngest Scout to earn the title in his troop's history. He attended and fully participated in two BSA Jamborees: 1989 and 1993. He also was born with CTEV. During both Jamborees, the Scouts accommodated him, substituting alternative activities when he could not participate because of his use of a cane and leg brace. There were physical requirements for hikes and other activities, yes, and he had to get physicals and doctor's permission, yes, but in the end the Scouts accommodated him. They did not tell him to stay home.

He's no longer involved in Scouting. He, my husband, their father, and their grandfather - men with more than 60 years of combined service to the BSA - resigned their Eagle Scout awards as well as all of their merit badges, commendations, etc., back in the 90s in protest over the exclusion of gays. Scouting took a big step in the right direction in accepting gay Scouts, and it will take an even bigger step when gay adults can assume leadership roles within Scouting. Excluding certain Scouts from a seminal event like the Jamboree based on a calculation invented by a mathematician, who said himself that should not be used to measure fatness in an individual (let alone a person's overall health), is a massive, clumsy step backwards.

[turquoise]

If they are worried that some scouts won't be able to handle the physical demands, they should have all scouts and adults pass a test. For example, what if everyone will have to walk a mile to the mess hall for each meal? Then everyone at the jamboree should be able to walk a set distance in a specific time.

BMI doesn't predict fitness.

[Mama Mia]

I had a conversation last night with my brother-in-law about this. He's an Eagle Scout and was the youngest Scout to earn the title in his troop's history. He attended and fully participated in two BSA Jamborees: 1989 and 1993. He also was born with CTEV. During both Jamborees, the Scouts accommodated him, substituting alternative activities when he could not participate because of his use of a cane and leg brace. There were physical requirements for hikes and other activities, yes, and he had to get physicals and doctor's permission, yes, but in the end the Scouts accommodated him. They did not tell him to stay home.

He's no longer involved in Scouting. He, my husband, their father, and their grandfather - men with more than 60 years of combined service to the BSA - resigned their Eagle Scout awards as well as all of their merit badges, commendations, etc., back in the 90s in protest over the exclusion of gays. Scouting took a big step in the right direction in accepting gay Scouts, and it will take an even bigger step when gay adults can assume leadership roles within Scouting. Excluding certain Scouts from a seminal event like the Jamboree based on a calculation invented by a mathematician, who said himself that should not be used to measure fatness in an individual (let alone a person's overall health), is a massive, clumsy step backwards.

Just wanted to :clap: :clap: :clap: for the men in your family! I'm sure they worked incredibly hard for all those achievements and to give them up in protest is amazingly honorable.

[dairyfreelife]

Yeah, but it wasn't an issue until this year. So weight is dangerous, but only in 2013. Okay, then.

Actually, the weight limit, as others have already said, has been around for a few years. The news media only picked up on it this year.

[OkToBeTakei]

Whilst I totally wish this could have gone another way and that something could not have been put in place to accommodate these kids. It does sound as if everybody has to have a physical and that from what others have said the Jamboree is not in comfy country. It's hot and they need to hike even to get to base camp if I understand correctly. Also this has been in place for over two years. Not just something they dropped before the trip.

What really concerns me is that although BMI is not a tool to determine fitness, for a child to have a BMI of 40 is purely talking weight to height ratio and that is say a 13/14 yr old of average height for age, 5ft 5inches and about 18 stone.

I am not sure if the statistic the OP posted is true that 17% of US 2-19 yr olds are obese and this compares unfavourably with the previous generation. But it is very frightening to think these children are not getting help. The Scouts I would have thought would have been a great start. I don't think publishing the criteria two years in advance to give the children involved an incentive as they said they did, would work in many cases. Incentives are great but the tools to meet them are far more complicated with such a complex problem.

[church_of_dog]

Hopefully they're prepared for that this year as well since it's horribly hot in West Virginia right not. It's 9PM and it's 90F outside, feels like 93/94 and it's super muggy also. Hit a heat index of near 100 yesterday. I think it's slightly cooler at the Jamboree location than where I am, but not by much. It's supposed to in the 90s for the next several days as well and sticky. And they are staying in those canvas tents, so I can only imagine who miserable that will be.

This is what would worry me. I attended the 1993 Jamboree near Fredricksburg, Virginia, as an employee of one of the federal agencies who had educational booths set up there. It was hot and humid, and I was from the West and thus not acclimated to the humidity. I was miserable and I wasn't even hiking around! (side note: it was cool to see my first fireflies there though!)

Psychologically it was even worse, as the week or so prior to the Jamboree it had been even MORE humid, and most of the federal employees who attended were from the local Washington DC area and thus used to it. I was there representing/demonstrating a program that was only in effect in the Western US and so they had 2-3 of us from the west attending -- but it just meant that the local folks were feeling relief from the earlier even-higher humidity index, so while we westies were miserable, we weren't gettin' any sympathy from the locals, all we heard was "this is so much better than it was last week"! :D

Anyway, my point was that the kids who attend Jamboree are also from all over the country and thus not necessarily acclimatized to the heat/humidity they will experience there. Combine that with a particularly hot/humid week and that seems a setup for trouble. I hope it goes well.

[PennySycamore]

That little kid in the movie Up might have been disqualified from participating if he'd been a real kid.

There was a film, Room for One More starring Cary Grant and his then real-life wife Betsy Drake about a family that took in several foster children. One of the kids wore braces on his legs. I don't recall the movie mentioning why, but I suppose it was due to polio. Jimmy-John decided to join the Boy Scouts as the oldest boy in the family was also in the Scouts. Then Jimmy-John decided to go for Eagle Scout. He ended up doing a hike in the snow and did make Eagle Scout in the end. IIRC, this film is based on a true story.

[treemom]

Hmm,...gotta say, considering this is fall less stringent requirements than for the other high adventure bases I don't think it is a big deal. It is all about legal liability.

[treemom]

Oh and ALL scouts, leaders and staff have to submit medical information. Love it when the media can't ge shit right. (My 13 year old is there right now)

[treemom]

Getting to go to the National Jamboree is a big deal for Scouts. Those poor kids were effectively told that they weren't good enough for what is arguably the pinnacle of Scouting life.

My dad was a Scout leader, worked as a liaison between Scout troops (boys and girls) and the National Park Service, and supervised Eagle Scout projects with the NPS. I decided years ago that my son wasn't going to be involved with the scouts over their policy on gay/trans/questioning scouts and leaders. That was hard to do, because I saw the good that some Scout leaders were able to do for the kids in their troops, but ultimately, the moral choice was obvious to me. Now this.

The different is the summit is a high adventure base, not the mall in dc. So you know, it isn't at all liked past jamborees.

I guess I just do not get the outrage. 40 BMI is beyond healthy and I am not a fat shamer at all. And this is an insurance/liability decision. It isn't like they had a lot of choice and there isn't lots of precident (northern tier, philmont and sea base all have far more stringent requirements.

[treemom]

After all some things unfortunately have weight limits and to say they don't would be irresponsible. My brother and nephew are in the scouts and I know they do some physically gruelling challenges at times. Basically I think if the kids are given enough notice to lose the weight then it is a win/win all around. Basically like in all things in life it is the approach that is used.

The requirements were posted over two years ago and are significantly less stringent than the high adventure bases already in existence. So it was very easy to know (plus it was on the part a,b, and c of the medical form.

[treemom]

But why couldn't the organizers have planned events for the kids who didn't fit their criteria? Why ban them from the National Jamboree altogether? It's crap. These kids have effectively just been told that they're not really Scouts! The National Jamboree is a huge deal! The kids who couldn't make their cutoff have just been barred from participating in one of the pinnacles of their Scouting career, because somebody couldn't be bothered to organize events that they could participate in.

I know I am multi posting, but it is a legal liability thing. This is a high adventure camp and without these restrictions they would not have gotten insurance coverage. If you want to be incensed, be incensed at the 75 year history of this.