Boy Scouts Forbid Fat Kids to Attend Jamboree

[salex]

No kidding.

I'm sorry, but being fat and getting frozen out of physical activities because 'they're too hard for you' is a really nasty cycle that just perpetuates itself for fat kids (and adults.) You 'have to exercise and eat right' but the consistant message that you're a fat pig if you sweat at a gym or 'holding everyone back' if you dare do even a MODERATELY active group activity, well.. yeah.

But oh, you only mean those DEATH FATS who are going to drop dead of heart attacks at the least little exertion, right? Exactly how do you think they got that way? I promise, it wasn't participating as much as they could in activities, without having to listen shaming and tut tutting about their fitness.

Mango

(Seriously, have you guys ever noticed that discount stores don't even CARRY anything that could be construed as workout clothes for plus sized women? Unless you count like, scrub pants, I guess.)

Target has Yoga pants, and various tops. Walmart probably does, though I've not looked there.

[FaustianSlip]

So what are they doing with the kids with physical disabilities? I concur that a BMI of over 40 is very high, but let's put that aside for a second; if a kid with asthma can't go to the Jamboree, or a fat kid can't go, or a kid with a heart murmur can't go, what about Scouts with physical disabilities? I'm assuming they're frozen out, as well, since it's not like a kid in a wheelchair can complete a five mile hike through the mountains of West Virginia, either. Honestly, I'm all for outdoor activity, but it seems really, really inappropriate to me to deliberately select a site for the national Jamboree where you know a significant chunk of Scouts will be barred from participation.

As far as heat exhaustion and dehydration, I'm calling B.S. on the BMI as a determining factor for either. I was recently at the two Civil War reenactments for the 150th Gettysburg anniversary. It was excruciatingly hot both weekends, the second in particular, and everyone was baking out there, whether they were participating in the reenactments or just watching. For the guys running around in wool and thirty or forty pounds of gear, there was a very real risk of heat-related injuries, and a lot of guys went down as a result of the heat. Interestingly, though, it wasn't all of the heavy, older guys (of which there are plenty in the world of reenacting), as you might expect. Instead, at least fifty percent of the people I saw receiving medical attention for heat exhaustion were young men in their late teens and early twenties, almost all of them lean or of proportionate body size- so, namely, exactly the kids you'd find at a typical Boy Scout Jamboree. And in relation to their representation within the reenacting crowd, the percentage of them that fell out from heat far outstripped that. I was shocked when I noticed it, honestly.

The reason? Apparently, the old guys take the heat concerns seriously, hydrate when and as instructed and are less prone to pushing themselves beyond their limits. The kids were filling their canteens with freaking soda or just not drinking at all, and they were dropping like flies. Sure, we can make the argument that some overweight Scout might push himself too hard, too, but you know what? That's what the leaders are there for, is to keep an eye out for that kind of thing. And it can happen just as easily to a skinny kid as to a fat one- maybe more easily, since everyone's expecting the fat kid to have issues and isn't paying any attention to the fact that the skinny kid is pale and no longer sweating.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that the BSA would pick a site for their Jamboree that excludes, from what I'm hearing, any Scout with some kind of health issue or disability. Honestly, this organization really does seem to be its own worst enemy lately.

[JesusFightClub]

I'm glad treemom and oddmountain were here to explain this shit. I feel reassured now, it's definitely a lot less dodgy than was made out.

RE fat shaming - this isn't, really. BMI 40+ is super high. It's not like just being a bit heavier than normal.

I did my BMI calc. I would need to weigh over 15 stone at my height to have a BMI of 40+. At my heaviest ever I weighed 13 stone (bad reaction to meds) and I literally found it difficult to even move about the bit. I wasn't active or healthy, because my weight meant I could get out of breath tying my shoelaces. Add a couple of stone to that and I would have been immobile.

I think the physical will pick up folk for who BMI is but a number. Fat people can be very fit, but not to put too fine a point on it, they're the exception not the rule in obese kids.

Still wondering about the disability factor, though, as FaustianSlip points out.

[oddmountain]

My husband was a scout growing up. He has hip and knee dysplasia that makes it difficult for him to walk more than a mile or two, and there are some days when he can't walk at all. He always wanted to go to Philmont (a BSA high adventure base in New Mexico), but couldn't meet the physical requirements. Philmont did offer him a horseback trek designed for scouts with disabilities, but he decided not to go. Philmont still offers that option. You don't go with your troop (them hiking, you on horseback), you go with a crew entirely on horseback.

I am disappointed that there isn't a similar option at Summit-Bechtel. However, it is a very new site and still being developed. Hopefully they will become more inclusive soon. Scouts were a place where my husband could shine and achieve when he was a boy, despite his joints.

On the other hand, the reason he didn't go to Philmont as a kid was that he thought going on the horseback trek would make him feel even more different. He said he wouldn't feel right saying he had "gone to Philmont" after he had completed it. He wanted to go with and have the same experiences as the boys he had scouted with since he was 7, but the only way that would be possible would be to take their trek away from them.

[dairyfreelife]

My husband was a scout growing up. He has hip and knee dysplasia that makes it difficult for him to walk more than a mile or two, and there are some days when he can't walk at all. He always wanted to go to Philmont (a BSA high adventure base in New Mexico), but couldn't meet the physical requirements. Philmont did offer him a horseback trek designed for scouts with disabilities, but he decided not to go. Philmont still offers that option. You don't go with your troop (them hiking, you on horseback), you go with a crew entirely on horseback.

I am disappointed that there isn't a similar option at Summit-Bechtel. However, it is a very new site and still being developed. Hopefully they will become more inclusive soon. Scouts were a place where my husband could shine and achieve when he was a boy, despite his joints.

On the other hand, the reason he didn't go to Philmont as a kid was that he thought going on the horseback trek would make him feel even more different. He said he wouldn't feel right saying he had "gone to Philmont" after he had completed it. He wanted to go with and have the same experiences as the boys he had scouted with since he was 7, but the only way that would be possible would be to take their trek away from them.

Yes, they are still not complete. My dad's work was part of a team to help build the place. There were still things that were not finished by the time the scouts arrived this year. They do have thinks like a BMX track, zip lines, rock climbing wall, canoeing, whitewater rafting, etc. but none of those would be that inclusive for physical disabilities. Perhaps the next Jamboree, they can have more accommodating activities.

[treemom]

I guess I just don't understand why they wouldn't pick a location that was accommodating to all scouts and have a variety of activities that would cover a vast difference in health. Not everything has to be 5 mile Ike's or sitting at camp with the other "fat" kids. Why not have fun and interesting activities for a wide range of abilities?

Because they are no longer allowed to use the mall in dc.

And there are tons of activities to do that are not strenuous. But how exactly do you imagine identifying the kids who can't do the strenuous out of 50k scouts?

And again, liability insurance.

[treemom]

BMI is a good starting point. But, you have to have other measurements to go with it. This is where physical body measurements and heart stress tests come in. I think its important to have everyone go though these tests. People can be skinny but still unhealthy for physical activity.

As an aside, I wish the BSoA would take more precautions. I knew a boy scout who died in middle school. He was climbing rocks with friends and slipped. As a whole, I think the whole organization needs to be more mindful of hazardous activities. I was not able to ice skate at an ice skating ring that age in the girl scouts without a lot of paperwork and releases.

Actually, I am the activities chair for our troop so I manage all the waivers for our troop activities and make sure we have an appropriately trained adults, etc. if the troop does it properly the precautions are there. But lots of troop break the rules.

[treemom]

So what are they doing with the kids with physical disabilities? I concur that a BMI of over 40 is very high, but let's put that aside for a second; if a kid with asthma can't go to the Jamboree, or a fat kid can't go, or a kid with a heart murmur can't go, what about Scouts with physical disabilities? I'm assuming they're frozen out, as well, since it's not like a kid in a wheelchair can complete a five mile hike through the mountains of West Virginia, either. Honestly, I'm all for outdoor activity, but it seems really, really inappropriate to me to deliberately select a site for the national Jamboree where you know a significant chunk of Scouts will be barred from participation.

As far as heat exhaustion and dehydration, I'm calling B.S. on the BMI as a determining factor for either. I was recently at the two Civil War reenactments for the 150th Gettysburg anniversary. It was excruciatingly hot both weekends, the second in particular, and everyone was baking out there, whether they were participating in the reenactments or just watching. For the guys running around in wool and thirty or forty pounds of gear, there was a very real risk of heat-related injuries, and a lot of guys went down as a result of the heat. Interestingly, though, it wasn't all of the heavy, older guys (of which there are plenty in the world of reenacting), as you might expect. Instead, at least fifty percent of the people I saw receiving medical attention for heat exhaustion were young men in their late teens and early twenties, almost all of them lean or of proportionate body size- so, namely, exactly the kids you'd find at a typical Boy Scout Jamboree. And in relation to their representation within the reenacting crowd, the percentage of them that fell out from heat far outstripped that. I was shocked when I noticed it, honestly.

The reason? Apparently, the old guys take the heat concerns seriously, hydrate when and as instructed and are less prone to pushing themselves beyond their limits. The kids were filling their canteens with freaking soda or just not drinking at all, and they were dropping like flies. Sure, we can make the argument that some overweight Scout might push himself too hard, too, but you know what? That's what the leaders are there for, is to keep an eye out for that kind of thing. And it can happen just as easily to a skinny kid as to a fat one- maybe more easily, since everyone's expecting the fat kid to have issues and isn't paying any attention to the fact that the skinny kid is pale and no longer sweating.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised that the BSA would pick a site for their Jamboree that excludes, from what I'm hearing, any Scout with some kind of health issue or disability. Honestly, this organization really does seem to be its own worst enemy lately.

Uncontrolled asthma only. Kids with disabilities usually pass the medical exam and are fine. Often kids with disabilities that require care travel with their caregiver and they are able to help determine what they can participate in.

And the BSA didn't exactly choose this sight. The place they have had jamborees for decades was no longer available to them

[OkToBeTakei]

Because they are no longer allowed to use the mall in dc.

And there are tons of activities to do that are not strenuous. But how exactly do you imagine identifying the kids who can't do the strenuous out of 50k scouts?

And again, liability insurance.

I think you should pass me a beer! NOW! :lol:

I am feeling for the scouts today. It has just hit 35 degrees here!!! In Scotland! My colleagues and I are really, really struggling. We are all relatively fit, but the heat is draining. It has kind of put some of this discussion into perspective for me.

Excuse me while I slide off in a trail of my own sweat :(

[treemom]

It is important to note jamboree at becthel and the high adventure treks at becthel will be different. And no one really knows what the high adventure will look like.

However, these requirements are not different than much of what was required at the 100 years of scouting.

I do understand it sounds harsh, but the BSA (when you are part of a good troop) is very good at helping and working through these situations. And the requirements are consistent among children without disabilities. My son had to bulk up because his BMI was too low. Kids with asthma just have to have it controlled. Kids with heart murmurs are not excluded. Even joint issues would have been fine for jamboree (part d of the medical form is not required, just a,b,c....philmont, northern tier and sea base require part d). If it appears you were going to have a issue your council should have been working with you.

With disabilities there is an entire group within scouts that works with you.

The BSA fails in so, so many ways. Don't get me wrong, they have many entrenched issues that are problems for me. But they are actually far better at this than many other organizations. In many cases, for girls who want to camp and do these activities the BSA venture crews are better options for them than the GSA. And for kids who do have fitness or special needs the BSA works with you better then competitive sports teams etc.

And don't get me wrong, our troop has issues and I don't like all our leaders or their choices, but they are dedicated to making sure every scout gets the experience they want out of scouts.

[oddmountain]

Actually, I am the activities chair for our troop so I manage all the waivers for our troop activities and make sure we have an appropriately trained adults, etc. if the troop does it properly the precautions are there. But lots of troop break the rules.

It varies wildly depending on the unit and the council. We are geographically closer to another council's camp so we do a lot of events out of council. Our troop, like that council, are fastidious about filling out the paperwork and following youth protection and safety guidelines. Our home council is much laxer. I have gotten nervous at events they sponsor. At one Klondike derby, our leaders stepped in and pulled our troop out of the event because of concerns. The event wasn't stopped or even modified after they complained. A lot of the troops in our council have the same attitude toward safety and all that "unnecessary paperwork."

I am committee chair for our troop, and I always try to preach that the guidelines are to protect the adults as much as the scouts.

As an aside, even though it hasn't really came up in this thread. I do feel torn that I am a leader in an organization that has discriminatory policies. When trying to decide if I wanted to quit scouts and pull my son out, I thought about all of the good things I have seen the program achieve with my family and with others. We have boys where scout meetings are the only place they can achieve and where they feel comfortable doing crafty "non-manly" activities. We have boys whose only friends are other scouts. Our troop has decided that sexuality of our boys and leaders would never be an issue, and I am determined to be an example of acceptance to our boys. Right now, I overhear a lot more racist jokes than I do jokes about sexuality, and I am glad I am in a position to hear them and to talk with the boys about them. I don't agree with the BSA's policies, but locally there is no other organization that meets the same needs. I feel a bit hypocritical being involved in the scouts, but I feel like I am doing good there and that it is a good thing for me and my son.

[treemom]

I feel the same way sometimes, but I also feel like our family has the potential to make positive changes within the BSA. And many of the things you point out are reasons we are there. I think it is good to have actors on the inside too...refusing to cow to bigots. And to have my son, who is a Life scout, become an eagle and stand up against the discrimination.

I was proud of him because he openly said that he expected the who will tent with the gay scout to become a problem and he went to his leaders and said, listen I will. I don't care, it doesn't bother me and I am not sexually active so I don't anticipate wanting to get it on in the tent. (He said the last part tinged with sarcasm). Which is tough here because Memphis is not exactly a tolerant place.

[FaustianSlip]

Uncontrolled asthma only. Kids with disabilities usually pass the medical exam and are fine. Often kids with disabilities that require care travel with their caregiver and they are able to help determine what they can participate in.

So what, exactly, is preventing the BSA from taking a similar approach in the case of weight? I have a very hard time seeing how a Scout who is, say, confined to a wheelchair is still qualified to attend a Jamboree on a site that the BSA are saying is so remote that kids with high BMIs shouldn't go, because a situation could arise where they would be unable to get emergency medical care. And if the BSA is able to make allowances for Scouts with other disabilities and allow them to opt in or out of activities as their parents or caretakers deem appropriate, why exactly can't they take a similar approach to these kids with very high BMIs?

And the BSA didn't exactly choose this sight. The place they have had jamborees for decades was no longer available to them

Oh, I see. There's no other place in the entire country where they could have held this event. That's really unfortunate and surprising; I would have thought that someone would be prepared to help the BSA out in that regard. And I was under the impression that the BSA owns a pretty vast amount of property in the form of various campsites and the like. Strange that none of them would have allowed for greater access for these kids.

I understand that you've had a positive experience with the Boy Scouts and are heavily involved with them, but honestly, Treemom, some of the stuff you're saying in their defense here seems a little over the top to me. No joke, if my Girl Scout leaders, volunteer parents with no particular medical background whatsoever, offered to help me "bulk up" or "slim down" to go off to a camp out or sleepaway camp, my parents wouldn't have had to laugh at them, because I would have been heading out the door already. The WTF factor on that one just blows my mind.

[OkToBeTakei]

So what, exactly, is preventing the BSA from taking a similar approach in the case of weight? I have a very hard time seeing how a Scout who is, say, confined to a wheelchair is still qualified to attend a Jamboree on a site that the BSA are saying is so remote that kids with high BMIs shouldn't go, because a situation could arise where they would be unable to get emergency medical care. And if the BSA is able to make allowances for Scouts with other disabilities and allow them to opt in or out of activities as their parents or caretakers deem appropriate, why exactly can't they take a similar approach to these kids with very high BMIs?

Oh, I see. There's no other place in the entire country where they could have held this event. That's really unfortunate and surprising; I would have thought that someone would be prepared to help the BSA out in that regard. And I was under the impression that the BSA owns a pretty vast amount of property in the form of various campsites and the like. Strange that none of them would have allowed for greater access for these kids.

I understand that you've had a positive experience with the Boy Scouts and are heavily involved with them, but honestly, Treemom, some of the stuff you're saying in their defense here seems a little over the top to me. No joke, if my Girl Scout leaders, volunteer parents with no particular medical background whatsoever, offered to help me "bulk up" or "slim down" to go off to a camp out or sleepaway camp, my parents wouldn't have had to laugh at them, because I would have been heading out the door already. The WTF factor on that one just blows my mind.

Why? I don't understand this reasoning. I assume those offering the help would do so under the guidelines of the medical authority who set the guidelines. I think despite the reservations of the BMI in relation to fitness, that a child who is that overweight is a very real concern for many reasons both physically and mentally. Yet it appears to me that what you are saying is they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are damned for offering to help.

[gilora]

My husband and son are at the jamboree now, and my husband has been attending since he was a kid. The BSA does what it can, but there are heart attacks and cases of heatstroke virtually every year. Some of the volunteers this year have four mile walks from camp to the activities. For those of you not in the mid-Atlantic states, it's HOT outside. I think the BSA made the right call in setting health guidelines for who can participate.

[treemom]

So what, exactly, is preventing the BSA from taking a similar approach in the case of weight? I have a very hard time seeing how a Scout who is, say, confined to a wheelchair is still qualified to attend a Jamboree on a site that the BSA are saying is so remote that kids with high BMIs shouldn't go, because a situation could arise where they would be unable to get emergency medical care. And if the BSA is able to make allowances for Scouts with other disabilities and allow them to opt in or out of activities as their parents or caretakers deem appropriate, why exactly can't they take a similar approach to these kids with very high BMIs?

Oh, I see. There's no other place in the entire country where they could have held this event. That's really unfortunate and surprising; I would have thought that someone would be prepared to help the BSA out in that regard. And I was under the impression that the BSA owns a pretty vast amount of property in the form of various campsites and the like. Strange that none of them would have allowed for greater access for these kids.

I understand that you've had a positive experience with the Boy Scouts and are heavily involved with them, but honestly, Treemom, some of the stuff you're saying in their defense here seems a little over the top to me. No joke, if my Girl Scout leaders, volunteer parents with no particular medical background whatsoever, offered to help me "bulk up" or "slim down" to go off to a camp out or sleepaway camp, my parents wouldn't have had to laugh at them, because I would have been heading out the door already. The WTF factor on that one just blows my mind.

They do the same thing for kid who are overweight.

And considering we have four doctors in our troop and our council has a general practitioner on the board as medical officer and we have two pas and more nurses than I can count I have no idea where you are getting the idea that lay people are telling people the slim down for sleep away camp.

Do the research, it isn't exactly easy to find a place for 80,000 scouts, leaders and staff. It used to be on the mall in dc.

My defensiveness is mostly because people are parroting bs without even doing the most preliminary research. How many times does it have to be explained about the medical forms? Or which ones were required? Or that this is not fucking sleep away camp? Or how jamborees work? Or that every kid, adult, leader and staff had to have a physical? Or that these restrictions are more lenient than the Girl Scouts have at some camps? And far more lenient than say most competitive sport camps?

How many times do you need to read that it was about insurance? And that kids were not denied at the last minute?

Philmont for instance would have been even further limiting and would have not allowed access to scouts. And I can't think of another scout owned property that can halve 80k people. But go on and tell me how many places there are that can handle that logistically? Since you apparently know so much more about it than I do.

I get it, it sounds harsh. And if the complaints were just BmI is a shitty measurement I would be with people. I think there is room for reform. But most of the complaints here have listed very specific untruths. Like not all scouts were required to do a medical form. Or that jamboree is simply sleep awAy camp (because I know sleep away camps with 80k people at them are all over). Or that they don't need insurance because people signed a waiver. Or that the GSA is so much better.

There is plenty of room for folks to disagree as to wether it is the right course or not. But there isn't room to make shit up.

[treemom]

Oh and I am amused that so many people say that jamboree is the scout experience. For most scouts Philmont is *THE* scout experience. Jamboree happens twice in a Boy Scout career and maybe once if they continue in venturing. Most scouts never even attend one.

That isn't to say it isn't huge, and shouldn't be as inclusive as possible (and is more inclusive year with mixed gender crews) but that I think Philmont is far more the defining experience for scouts. And has far, far stricter medical guidelines.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I saw this, and lo, it was not mental. Incorrect idea, sure.

wild little fox, I totally agree that someone like you could do all the stuff, but I think a lot of BMI 40+ kids couldn't and no kid in the world knows his or her limitations.

So! A simple solution would be to give all the kids a check over when they are coming in, instead of banning them from coming. A fit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be fine to do everything. An unfit kid with a high or low or normal BMI will be restricted in activities.

Same with disabilities. I've got a BMI of 23 and a foot which is absolutely fucked. If someone measured me by BMI I'd pass, but anyone medical who examines my foot would go "Whoa! That's absolutely fucked. You're skipping the 5 mile hike."

It's too much of a blunt instrument to be a good idea. Monitoring the Scouts in camp and as they come in seems a better one. That means the bigger kids can attend and have fun too, without feeling shamed in front of their mates.

I love you JFC.

[FaustianSlip]

They do the same thing for kid who are overweight.

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, then. First of all, are they or are they not barring kids with a BMI of 40 or higher from participation in the Jamboree? Because it says right here on the official website that kids with a BMI of 40 or higher are banned outright. If that's the case, which it appears to be, I want to know what the deal is with disabled kids and why, if kids with disabilities that limit their mobility are allowed to participate, similar steps weren't taken to assist kids with BMIs of 40 or higher in order that they could still attend. That site also says, BTW, that participation isn't guaranteed for kids with a BMI of 32 or higher, even with their doctor's okay. They make it very clear that the final call rests with camp staff, who have never even seen the kid in question.

The guy in the "getting fit" video, at the time it was filmed, had a BMI of 49.5. He worked on getting the weight off, which is admirable, but as of the last time his weight loss blog was updated, he'd lost 125 pounds and was still at a 38. I'd be curious to know if he got the final 55 pounds off before Jamboree or not, actually.

And considering we have four doctors in our troop and our council has a general practitioner on the board as medical officer and we have two pas and more nurses than I can count I have no idea where you are getting the idea that lay people are telling people the slim down for sleep away camp.

Perhaps because your troop is not necessarily representative of every Boy Scout troop in America in terms of having a bajillion medically-trained adults on hand? Come on, Treemom, seriously? Do you really think that every troop (or even most troops) have doctors as leaders? I was a scout my entire childhood, and I think we had one leader who was a health professional (all leaders underwent training in how to deal with emergencies and provide basic first aid, obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here). That's great that your troop and council apparently have a wealth of medical knowledge, but that doesn't mean that that's the case across the board.

And I'm getting the idea that lay people are telling kids to slim down because on the blog one poster linked, a commenter specifically says that she, as a troop leader was first told that she and her son couldn't participate in some activities at Cub Scout camp because of their weight (seriously, how strenuous are activities at Cub Scout camp going to be? These kids are 7-11 years old, it's not like they're scaling the Matterhorn) and was then told by some local rep that she should lose some weight to get her BMI down. I suppose it's possible she's just lying, but that seems kind of unlikely.

And based on this blog, it would also appear that a number of troops did a pretty craptastic job of explaining to the kids and their parents that if they were overweight, they could in fact attend but only with medical clearance. That, I suspect, is some of the source of the misunderstanding that's got you so upset- people were told that they or their children were barred from attending Jamboree because they weighed too much or their body fat was too high, the BSA Jamboree site says very clearly that kids with a BMI of over 40 are barred (while handicapped scouts are "encouraged to attend," interestingly enough), and it seems kind of shitty for a group that's already got a reputation for excluding kids who don't meet their exacting standards.

And that kids were not denied at the last minute?

Honestly, if you're the kid that's being told, "Sorry, fatty, slim down or ship out," it doesn't matter when you're being told that. I would have been completely humiliated if one of my Girl Scout leaders had taken me aside and said, "Look, because of insurance, we can't take you to the Camporee this year, because you're too heavy. But we'd be happy to help you lose weight!" Ugh, no. I spent years obsessing over my BMI, first during the process of applying to the Service Academies and then when I was in ROTC in college (I was not, for the record, anywhere near the BMIs that we're talking about here). It was awful, and I think it was the source of a lot of body and weight issues I have now. No one was ever horrible to me about it or called me a heifer or anything, but it didn't matter- just having someone bring that up to you, especially someone in a position of authority, someone whom you look up to and respect, is mortifying. And I'm not someone known for being, shall we say, lacking in self confidence, but I still wanted to sink into the ground. I think you're completely underestimating how hard something like this is for the kid on the receiving end, no matter how compassionately it's presented. And however great your troop is, I'll guarantee that there were other leaders and other scouts who weren't very nice about giving these heavy kids and their parents the news.

Or that the GSA is so much better.

I would actually like to see a source for your statement that various Girl Scout camps have more stringent weight or BMI requirements than the Jamboree, actually, just for my own edification (and, specifically, I would like anything about a Girl Scout event comparable to the Boy Scout Jamboree, so a national event for all Girl Scouts, that has comparable or stricter BMI requirements). I attended Girl Scout camps for the bulk of my childhood and never heard of anyone being turned away based on their BMI, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And the GSA doesn't have a long and colorful history of organizational discrimination against kids or adults based on their sexuality and/or religion, which I suspect is also part of the reason people are instinctively inclined to hold them up over the BSA, even if that's not really what's under discussion here. I'm certainly less inclined to give the BSA the benefit of the doubt than I was in the past, because I've seen the way they've treated hundreds of other scouts who didn't pass muster for one reason or another- why would I assume that they would suddenly be super compassionate in this case? I think the BSA, for all of the positive things they do for a lot of kids, have worn out their opportunities to be given the benefit of the doubt with a lot of people.

[FaustianSlip]

Why? I don't understand this reasoning. I assume those offering the help would do so under the guidelines of the medical authority who set the guidelines. I think despite the reservations of the BMI in relation to fitness, that a child who is that overweight is a very real concern for many reasons both physically and mentally. Yet it appears to me that what you are saying is they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are damned for offering to help.

Why is it a bad idea for random, volunteer troop leaders to be guiding scouts with very high BMIs in the weight loss process? First of all, if the argument for having the BMI policy in the first place is insurance, it looks a bit ridiculous for a troop leader to then incur the liability that comes with trying to supervise weight loss for a kid with a BMI of 40. If it's so dangerous for that kid to engage in strenuous activity that he can't go to the Jamboree in the first place, he should not be going out at the behest of his troop leader and running laps or something. Troop leaders with kids affected by this policy should (and would, I hope) talk to the kid's parents, first of all, and then advise them to work with the kid's doctor to come up with a weight loss plan if the kid really wants to lose the weight necessary to attend the Jamboree.

I don't know why you would assume that a troop leader in Iowa somewhere who has a kid too fat to go to the Jamboree would be working in consultation with the medical authorities of the Jamboree to customize a diet and weight loss plan for that kid. As Treemom is so fond of pointing out, there are 80,000 kids going to this thing. If even ten percent of them have this issue, that's 8000 kids that some small medical cadre is going to train by proxy, through their troop leaders, for weight loss? Yeah, no. You advise the kid and his parents to talk to his pediatrician about the best and safest way to go about losing weight and, of course, offer the kid your full support and encouragement after any weight loss plan is cleared by his parents and his pediatrician. You know, the doctor who actually knows this kid, knows his medical history and knows the best way to help him lose weight?

There is no way on earth I would consent to my kid losing weight under the supervision of his Boy Scout troop leader, whether that leader is receiving guidance from some Jamboree medical personnel or not. This isn't Biggest Loser, and the kid has a doctor who knows him and knows his medical history. And I never said that the BSA should be shepherding (or, as seems to be the case, shaming) these kids into weight loss.

I object to the BSA saying, "We have to have this policy because these kids couldn't get around well enough at the site," which is what it says on their own website, and in the same breath encouraging kids with disabilities, who would presumably face similar issues of mobility, to come on over to the Jamboree. If they can get the insurance coverage and make the accommodations to allow handicapped kids to attend, I find it really hard to believe that they couldn't find a way to make it work for kids with weight issues who really wanted to go.

[DarkAnts]

Actually, I am the activities chair for our troop so I manage all the waivers for our troop activities and make sure we have an appropriately trained adults, etc. if the troop does it properly the precautions are there. But lots of troop break the rules.

I think that Utah (where I grew up) has a higher incident of boy scout deaths then most places. I think it has to do with the leaders not being experienced. There was an incident a few years ago where a leader was having the boys canoeing in an unsafe area. The area was not always unsafe. But the river conditions at that time were unsafe. There had been record snow fall in the winter. When the snow melted, many rivers got flooded. The water in the rivers was also moving faster then normal. The forest service even put out notices on how unsafe the rivers were. Needless to say, a few of the boys from this troop ended up loosing control and almost drowned. They were lucky that there were people nearby that were able to rescue them.

I am sure boy scouts can be safe when proper protocol is used. I have just seen too many deaths occur in Utah. In 2011 there were 4 deaths in Utah that occurred while at scouting events. The deaths did not involve health problems.

In contrast, the girl scouts dont allow individual troops to go rafting unless you are doing it with certified people. Individual leaders are not allowed to take the girls out on a whim. My troop had to go through a two year process of paperwork and vetting before we could go rafting with a reputable tour company.

[FaustianSlip]

On the weight front, I just found this article about the weight limits. Since Philmont just came up, I found this part of the article particularly disturbing:

One mother reported to NAAFA in 2009 that her son was having issues attending Philmont High Adventure Boy Scout Camp in Cimmaron, NM. "Philmont has a weight standard and anyone over this standard is labeled unhealthy and cannot participate. I tried to explain to them that my son plays football, wrestles and runs relays, shot put, discus thrower, in track & field and a weight lifter. During the summer he swims, weightlifts and conditions for football. He has been conditioning for Philmont by hiking for 2-3 hours with a 50 pound pack on his back for the last 2 months. He weighs 261 lbs. and has been eating a 1200 - 1400 calorie diet trying to lose weight. Unfortunately he only lost 3 pounds... According to Philmont medical staff if he doesn't weigh below 246, he will be sent home. It didn't matter to them if he is active, only his weight number. I have watched my son condition for football and he can run circles around other players that are what society deems healthy."

Aside from being messed up, that's reminiscent of what I would do to drop weight before an ROTC weigh-in. I was passing the physical fitness tests, but all that mattered was BMI. The end result? Crash diets, obsessing over weight and body insecurities. Is this really the legacy that the BSA wants to pass on to these kids? Because a lot of the scouts affected by this aren't going to stick around crash dieting forever- they'll eventually give up and leave scouting, but probably not before the experiences with their weight have a chance to really stick with them and screw them up (or, in the case of kids who actually are unhealthy, as opposed to just being outside the BMI cutoff, screw them up even more).

[oddmountain]

"He has been conditioning for Philmont by hiking for 2-3 hours with a 50 pound pack on his back for the last 2 months. He weighs 261 lbs. and has been eating a 1200 - 1400 calorie diet trying to lose weight. "

AT Philmont, he will be hiking 4-8 hours, at high altitude; in 90+ degree heat, with limited water; on narrow, steeply graded paths (which are challenging uphill and downhill, and there is no level path at Philmont); on a diet of mainly Gatorade, trail mix, and beef jerky; with a 50+ pound pack on his back everyday for ten days. If his crew is scheduled for a dry camp, he will also be carrying (in addition to 5L of his personal daily water) his share of the ten gallons or so of water that the crew will need for the next day. If a crewmate twists his or her ankle, he will take turns carrying an additional 50+ pack.

If hiking for 2-3 hours with a 50 pound pack and surviving on 1400 calories is a challenge for him now, he will have a very hard time at Philmont.

In addition, as much as it will hurt some parents to hear, it is not all about one kid. If a 261-pound crewmember breaks his leg on top of a mountain, will his crewmates be able to take him off the mountain and to a staff camp, which could take hours? On side hikes, there could be as few as three crewmembers, so that would be two people to carry him until they could meet with the rest of the crew.

In our crew, we had three slightly overweight but still within the guidelines crewmembers. I was one of them. All three of us ended up being sent down the mountain at various times for heat exhaustion or acute mountain sickness. One was sent home. I am 155 pounds and 5'6" and I wish I had lost that last 10 pounds before leaving. The very lean crewmembers handled the heat and dehydration much better.

[formergothardite]

I think you should pass me a beer! NOW! :lol:

I am feeling for the scouts today. It has just hit 35 degrees here!!! In Scotland! My colleagues and I are really, really struggling. We are all relatively fit, but the heat is draining. It has kind of put some of this discussion into perspective for me.

Excuse me while I slide off in a trail of my own sweat :(

So that is like 95F, right? Come to the south during the summer and experience months of that along with oppressing humidity. :lol: That is why I have to do all my exercising at like 6 in the morning because it is still fucking hot late at night. What is the temperatures like for you normally?

[dairyfreelife]

So that is like 95F, right? Come to the south during the summer and experience months of that along with oppressing humidity. :lol: That is why I have to do all my exercising at like 6 in the morning because it is still fucking hot late at night. What is the temperatures like for you normally?

It was like that the past few days in WV. Mid-90s and very high, oppressive humidity. The camp's location is higher up in the mountains than where I am, so it was a little cooler temperature-wise, but it was still around 90. Thankfully it is going to be a little cooler the next few days, but it is supposed to stormy weather, so hope they stay dry.