Christianity in New Zealand Public Schools

[Jinger Jar]

stayathomedaughter.com

Stay at Home Daughter, Ashley is gushing with excitement over the fact that a ministry her family's involved in allows them to go into public primary schools in New Zealand and teach Bible scripture and Christianity in general in a way that's akin to VBS in the US.

According to [link=http://www.hrc.co.nz/hrc_new/hrc/cms/files/documents/20-Jan-2010_10-40-19_Rel_in_Schools_Jan_09.html]NZ Human Rights Commission[/link], religious studies are permissible in primary schools, but it "does not require students to engage with the religions being studied at a personal level or make choices about accepting those beliefs." Also, NZHCR states that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act of 1990 allows religious instruction in schools "as long as it is done in a way that does not discriminate against anyone who doesn't share that belief."

Ashley, on the other hand, talks of pupils' hearts being "soft and open to the Gospel," and of teaching kids songs that let them "hide God's Word" in their hearts. That sounds awfully like engaging in Christianity on a personal level to me. How is this not proselytizing?

And then there's this picture:

If this is the lesson, how would a child who isn't Christian not feel alienated?

Ashley does admit that some parents and teachers are opposed to this state-sponsored religious instruction, and want to see it stopped. Were I a parent living in New Zealand, I would so be in that camp. As a Catholic parent raising Catholic children, I would be furious if my kids were being taught doctrine contrary to Catholic teachings in a public school. I can't imagine how steamed I would be were I a Buddhist, atheist, or Muslim parent.

[snarkyjan]

stayathomedaughter.com

Stay at Home Daughter, Ashley is gushing with excitement over the fact that a ministry her family's involved in allows them to go into public primary schools in New Zealand and teach Bible scripture and Christianity in general in a way that's akin to VBS in the US.

According to [link=http://www.hrc.co.nz/hrc_new/hrc/cms/files/documents/20-Jan-2010_10-40-19_Rel_in_Schools_Jan_09.html]NZ Human Rights Commission[/link], religious studies are permissible in primary schools, but it "does not require students to engage with the religions being studied at a personal level or make choices about accepting those beliefs." Also, NZHCR states that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act of 1990 allows religious instruction in schools "as long as it is done in a way that does not discriminate against anyone who doesn't share that belief."

Ashley, on the other hand, talks of pupils' hearts being "soft and open to the Gospel," and of teaching kids songs that let them "hide God's Word" in their hearts. That sounds awfully like engaging in Christianity on a personal level to me. How is this not proselytizing?

And then there's this picture:

If this is the lesson, how would a child who isn't Christian not feel alienated?

Ashley does admit that some parents and teachers are opposed to this state-sponsored religious instruction, and want to see it stopped. Were I a parent living in New Zealand, I would so be in that camp. As a Catholic parent raising Catholic children, I would be furious if my kids were being taught doctrine contrary to Catholic teachings in a public school. I can't imagine how steamed I would be were I a Buddhist, atheist, or Muslim parent.

The notion of "Hiding God's word In their hearts" sounds like they're camouflaging their true intent, so that parents or teachers who might otherwise object can't pin them down.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I would not be okay with this for my future children.

Sure, I love the idea of schools giving children at least a basic knowledge of world religions-what they believe in, how the religion started, what festivals they celebrate, the stories behind them, and how they celebrate, and maybe a few stories from their religion. I always loved learning about this sort of thing in school, as I found it fascinating.

I dont like the idea of anything that tries to convert kids though, or tell them that one religion is completely right and the one everyone should follow.

In the UK, even the non Christian schools have Christian elements-in our school assembly we always ended with a prayer, were told Bible stories and a lot of the songs I can remember were Christianity related. I wasnt in a specifically Christian school, in fact, at least a third of our class was Muslim.

When I was little and had no concept of religion, it was something my parents never talked about, I went along with it and thought of it just as a funny thing people did in schools. I didnt even realise there were people who believed it or did this sort of thing at home. When I got to being about 7-10 years old, I was aware of the concept of religion, and knew I was an atheist. I became very uncomfortable with praying in school, because I felt like such a fake, and that it wasnt right for me to be doing this sort of thing because I was an atheist and I was doing something that was only for Christians. I also felt it wasnt right because of my Muslim friends, they had to pray in the Christian way as well but never got to do a prayer in their own way. Everyone seemed to be ok with it though, or at least never mentioned they didnt want to, so I just kept quiet as I wasnt brave enough to ask if I could sit out from doing it.

I dont think I will homeschool my future kids to escape this though, as I dont think I could homeschool, but I would be very open with my children and have a good relationship with them (for this and for other things as well), in the hope that if I raised a child who was not Christian, they would feel comfortable enough to say they were uncomfortable with school prayer to tell me about it, or even to tell their teacher about it.

[Rachel333]

The notion of "Hiding God's word In their hearts" sounds like they're camouflaging their true intent, so that parents or teachers who might otherwise object can't pin them down.

I don't think so; that's just a common phrase referring to memorizing Bible verses. Definitely not okay in a public school, though.

[miffy]

This isn't going to go down well with the extremely catholic islander and Maori parents, of whom there are many.

[jaelh]

In AU schools have always allowed 'scripture teaching'. it's volunteer run, and the scripture you're taught depends on who volunteers to teach. parents are able to "opt-out" their children. Unfortunately, this usually means kids are given 45 minutes of colouring time (or other, unstructured activity) while their peers are taking scripture.

IF the rules are the same in NZ (and from the linked HRComissioner report, I thin they are) I would trust any parent with a strong desire for their children not to be exposed to this would have opted out of the classes.

The "teaching about" and "teaching" is a very fine line distinction. It's teacher level stuff. But this type of volunteer in the room? That's got to be a "scripture" class. It's far, far, far from standard classroom content.

[flojo]

Nz trained primary teacher here.

This has been going on for years and is very controversial. Basically, from a legal standpoint the school shuts down for 30 minutes once per week. Parents may opt out.

[jaelh]

Nz trained primary teacher here.

This has been going on for years and is very controversial. Basically, from a legal standpoint the school shuts down for 30 minutes once per week. Parents may opt out.

There was a push to start a 30 minute ethics class for non scripture students here, 12 months ago. It didn't' go anywhere, for some reason (I THINK it was lack of volunteer teachers, but I have no idea - I don't know if I'm remembering twits saying that was the reason, or if that actually was the reason)

[eightykatie]

I had this as a kid. I remember it being fairly benign. Some kids who were more religious/other religions opted out. And in fact I have friends who do Bible in Schools now! I don't think it's a good use of time, but I think the actual value of it really depends on who your volunteers are.

[terranova]

I had religious instruction as a kid and I know it continues today, although I suspect a lot more people are opting out as our society has become more multicultural in the last 20 years. It was pretty mild, I most remember stories, a few songs, some crafts, certainly no one ever attempted to convert my heathen soul.

Looking back I'm slightly surprised by anti-religious parents didn't opt out, I think the only person who did in my class was an Exclusive Bretheren girl who went and sat in the library for the hour.

[keinz]

NZ-er here. We had something like this where the happy-clappies came in for three or four weeks in a row for one hour a week. We mostly ignored it - they weren't teachers, we didn't have to pay attention, and so long as we weren't actually doing anything particularly rude, we weren't punished for it. So we'd gossip and pass notes. It wasn't compulsory, but better than sitting in with another class and having to do actual work :/

We also (being near the home of the Ratana church) had several marae visits, which were taken with about the same amount of seriousness (but more teacher discipline involved).

[Hestia]

In my fundie days I was involved with this. I'm not a fan, but even the fundies stick to pretty benign parables and OT stories. It's not taken seriously by the kids.

That said, I'm really not a fan and I think it's a hangover from our colonial past that our society is ready to be done with.

[C Potter-Pirbright]

My flatmate had this, years ago when he was in primary school. He said they'd turn up for a few weeks a year and talk, and the class would mainly do their own thing. He however was in his words 'a little shit' and asked a lot of questions, poked holes in what they said and drove the person to fits of rage. His parents got called in and his class never had to do these sessions again.

I don't think many kids take it seriously at all though.

[treemom]

My work BFF is kiwi. I need to ask her about this because she is usually shocked about the American religiousity

[jaelh]

My work BFF is kiwi. I need to ask her about this because she is usually shocked about the American religiousity

:) I think this is one of the great paradoxes of America (or the Rest of the World, depending on your perspective).

The strict separation of state and religion hasn't made the US 'less religious' than most other western states. Indeed, it's much more so, than most any other western state.

Having volunteers allowed into public schools to teach about scripture (and in AU, it's specifically religious education) is generally regarded as benign (the Hillsong Happy Clappers was ID taught in classes but that's not going to happen because we don't have the independent school board insanity of the US either. yeah! :)). But if anyone proposed putting the 10 commandments up in a court house, they'd be laughed out of town.

How it ended up this way, I have no idea (I'd go with religious fanatic refugees and history for $20, but who knows, really). But it's almost comical that states with a nominal head of state that's also head of a church are so much less religious in politics and public life than the state where the blending of the two is prohibited.

[2xx1xy1JD]

:) I think this is one of the great paradoxes of America (or the Rest of the World, depending on your perspective).

The strict separation of state and religion hasn't made the US 'less religious' than most other western states. Indeed, it's much more so, than most any other western state.

Having volunteers allowed into public schools to teach about scripture (and in AU, it's specifically religious education) is generally regarded as benign (the Hillsong Happy Clappers was ID taught in classes but that's not going to happen because we don't have the independent school board insanity of the US either. yeah! :)). But if anyone proposed putting the 10 commandments up in a court house, they'd be laughed out of town.

How it ended up this way, I have no idea (I'd go with religious fanatic refugees and history for $20, but who knows, really). But it's almost comical that states with a nominal head of state that's also head of a church are so much less religious in politics and public life than the state where the blending of the two is prohibited.

Good point. See Canada, esp. Quebec.

My bet is that in places where religion played a more "official" role, it became less personal. Later, when secularism grew and there was more of a backlash against government and authority in general, people turned their backs on the "official" religions to a much greater degree than they did with minority religions. Quebec went from super-Catholic to secular within a generation. The Anglican church also saw their numbers fall, although it wasn't as extreme as the Quebec example.

I see this a bit in Israel too - secular Jews in Tel Aviv are WAY less involved or respectful of religion than non-religious Jews in North America.

[uber frau]

There's a fantastic book called "God is back" which basically agree with that hypothesis. I can't remember the authors off the top of my head, I just remember it's a joint effort between a Catholic and an atheist. Worth a read, anyway.

[Val78]

In general I think New Zealand is pretty progressive? Gay marriage among other issues & how they handle

those legal aspects?

[treemom]

I made work BFF stand over me and read this. She never had this experience. But she did have to say the Lord's prayer in intermediate public school.

[meep]

If other religions can have people going in there teaching kids from their own point of view also, I guess it's really not that bad.

But I'm not from NZ. So anyone from NZ...do they do this with all sorts of religion? Or does it just tend to boil down to Christianity?

[jaelh]

I see this a bit in Israel too - secular Jews in Tel Aviv are WAY less involved or respectful of religion than non-religious Jews in North America.

there are so many angles to approach that particular quandangle.

might it be an identity issue? Secular Jews in Tel Aviv don't need religious observance to mark their Judaism, it's not a necessary element of being Jewish so don't accord it respect; religious Jews in Nth America aren't recognised as Jews prima facie, so seek to maintain that which makes them distinct, so set it apart.

or..

In North America, observance must be regarded by many Jews as an "additional burden": you take on extra responsibilities that you have to fulfil. Yes, there is some state support, but not so much. In Israel, there seems to be a backlash against the orthodox (at least, the religious nationalist (RNO) and the hassids). The RNO are seen to have state support for occupation - and that's state support that's provided by secular (and religious, but just by sheer force of numbers mainly secular conscripts). The Hassids are given educational support, are seen not to work etc.... "Observance" is seen by the secular to give rise to advantages that the secular disagree with. Thus: north america - look, the observant are doing the hard work to keep as distinct at not cost to the secular vs. Israel - the secular are providing for a way of life they disagree with; being observant isn't a cost, rather it accrues you benefits.

etc.

the possibilities are almost endless.

Meep: as the program is staffed by volunteers, you tend to get what you have a lot of in the area. In the areas where large number of Islamic migrants live in a city near me, there is Muslim scripture. While Anglo-celtic areas? Tends to only be Christianity. I had a post above where I spoke about an attempt to introduce ethics classes for non-religous that failed because of lack of volunteers. It's not so much a malicious scheme on the part of the Christians, it's that they make sure people are available.

[Mrs Ms]

In general I think New Zealand is pretty progressive? Gay marriage among other issues & how they handle

those legal aspects?

First country in the world to let women vote, I think we had the first transgender politician, had a few female prime ministers.... so yes :)

After somewhat following the last US elections, the thing that blew my mind is how little we care about our politicians religion here. It wasn't until 3 weeks before our current prime minister was RE-elected that I found out he is a cultural jew. And I had kept pretty up to date during the first election! No body gives a shit about it and the piece where I read it wasn't being derogatory in the slightest. Haven't heard about it since.

Back on topic, as I went to a private school, I can't comment on how common this is, but I am fairly certain that other religions would also be allowed to be presented - if someone cared to do so.

[treemom]

First country in the world to let women vote, I think we had the first transgender politician, had a few female prime ministers.... so yes :)

After somewhat following the last US elections, the thing that blew my mind is how little we care about our politicians religion here. It wasn't until 3 weeks before our current prime minister was RE-elected that I found out he is a cultural jew. And I had kept pretty up to date during the first election! No body gives a shit about it and the piece where I read it wasn't being derogatory in the slightest. Haven't heard about it since.

Back on topic, as I went to a private school, I can't comment on how common this is, but I am fairly certain that other religions would also be allowed to be presented - if someone cared to do so.

This is pretty much how my work BFF described NZ.

She is often surprised at how Americans define themselves so much by their religion and it because one of the first things you find out about people.