Virginity before marriage-mistake

[August]

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here. That all people wait to have sex before getting married have their judgment clouded because all they can think about is finally getting to have sex? I'm sure that's true for many, but it shouldn't be if you have a healthy and realistic attitude about sex, which was kind of my point.

Every person should feel that they are making an empowered decision about their own sexuality. It's wrong to shame people for approaching their sexuality in a way that you happen to disapprove of, and that includes people who choose to wait until marriage. You're assuming that everyone who waits until marriage is ignorant and childish about sex, which is complete b.s.

But why have you chosen your wedding night? You can't expect to be taken seriously saying you just happen to have independently decided that you'll magically be ready to progress to the next stage in your sexual relationship five hours after you progress to the next stage in your legal relationship, rather than choosing that because of decades of societal pressure and tradition.

[treehugger]

But why have you chosen your wedding night? You can't expect to be taken seriously saying you just happen to have independently decided that you'll magically be ready to progress to the next stage in your sexual relationship five hours after you progress to the next stage in your legal relationship, rather than choosing that because of decades of societal pressure and tradition.

Who said anything about having sex on the wedding night? I believe singsingsing was talking about waiting until after the wedding. For all you know it could be the wedding night or the week after the wedding. Mr treehugger and I did not wait until we were married to have sex - but I can respect the fact that some people might. Perhaps they are more comfortable waiting until they've legally committed to each other. It isn't any of my business really - so I can't say I think it's a big deal.

[louisa05]

Who said anything about having sex on the wedding night? I believe singsingsing was talking about waiting until after the wedding. For all you know it could be the wedding night or the week after the wedding. Mr treehugger and I did not wait until we were married to have sex - but I can respect the fact that some people might. Perhaps they are more comfortable waiting until they've legally committed to each other. It isn't any of my business really - so I can't say I think it's a big deal.

Perhaps some people consider wedding vows to be something more than a legality. You can believe that with no religious sentiments whatsoever.

I don't think it is any better to judge people for choosing to wait--for any time and for any reason--than it is to judge people for not choosing to. Sexual decisions should be private between the two people involved. We can't object to the ownership parents in purity culture take over their children's sexuality and at the same time think we have the right to tell other adults when they should or should not have sex.

[August]

No, it's not all equal. The argument against sex is that you'll be used goods/tarnished/impure. The argument for sex and living together is to find out if you're really compatible. One of those is religious based, one is based on facts.

[bananacat]

I have a really funny virgin story.

I knew a couple who were super religious and didn't have sex until their wedding night...but they had oral and anal!

(They married when they were 20/22 and are now divorced. I don't think it lasted two years.)

This is called saddlebacking and it's a sadly growing trend among the abstinence-only crowd. Tons of teenagers are only getting the "education" that they just should have sex. They're not taught about risks of disease so STDs are spreading easily among them.

[treehugger]

No, it's not all equal. The argument against sex is that you'll be used goods/tarnished/impure. The argument for sex and living together is to find out if you're really compatible. One of those is religious based, one is based on facts.

Most of the time, yes. However, for some people (probably most, but I'm not going to make a blanket assumption) the act of sex is extremely intimate, and if they chose to save it until after they are legally married, that does not mean they believe it will make them impure/tarnished/whatever... it could simply be that they might feel more comfortable being totally open and vulnerable after they have chosen to make a legal commitment to each other.

[Guest]

Most of the time, yes. However, for some people (probably most, but I'm not going to make a blanket assumption) the act of sex is extremely intimate, and if they chose to save it until after they are legally married, that does not mean they believe it will make them impure/tarnished/whatever... it could simply be that they might feel more comfortable being totally open and vulnerable after they have chosen to make a legal commitment to each other.

Thank you. Treehugger has answered these questions just as I would have, though maybe a bit more eloquently. I would CERTAINLY not consider myself nor my SO to be part of the "purity culture," and the same is true with many people I meet who are saving sex for marriage. It's a very personal decision, and, as I said earlier, something I don't share with many people. I totally understand and am totally supportive of anyone who makes a different decision than I have. I'm not saying that it hasn't been influenced by the culture I live in, but not anymore than losing one's virginity before high school graduation or having sex on the third date is influenced by culture.

I know that the majority of people on this board would attack anyone criticizing the choice to have sex on the first date, so I don't understand why it's okay to criticize adults making informed decisions to wait until marriage to have sex. Pointing out the flaws in the purity culture and the ideas behind courtship is what this blog is meant to do, but making blanket generalizations that anyone who may feel personally that waiting for marriage is right for them is making a stupid or ill informed choice is ridiculous.

If anyone would like to discuss my personal choice further, I'd be happy to do an AMA on a more private part of this forum, but my goal on this thread is to point out that this criticism creates a double standard, IMO.

[slh12280]

Thank you. Treehugger has answered these questions just as I would have, though maybe a bit more eloquently. I would CERTAINLY not consider myself nor my SO to be part of the "purity culture," and the same is true with many people I meet who are saving sex for marriage. It's a very personal decision, and, as I said earlier, something I don't share with many people. I totally understand and am totally supportive of anyone who makes a different decision than I have. I'm not saying that it hasn't been influenced by the culture I live in, but not anymore than losing one's virginity before high school graduation or having sex on the third date is influenced by culture.

I know that the majority of people on this board would attack anyone criticizing the choice to have sex on the first date, so I don't understand why it's okay to criticize adults making informed decisions to wait until marriage to have sex. Pointing out the flaws in the purity culture and the ideas behind courtship is what this blog is meant to do, but making blanket generalizations that anyone who may feel personally that waiting for marriage is right for them is making a stupid or ill informed choice is ridiculous.

If anyone would like to discuss my personal choice further, I'd be happy to do an AMA on a more private part of this forum, but my goal on this thread is to point out that this criticism creates a double standard, IMO.

Just felt like jumping in here. I used to be very set on the waiting until marriage. It didn't happen. However, I still really respect that choice and I think some part of me wishes that I would have done that. Point being, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this choice. It seems you are not doing it out of religious guilt/fear or other such reasons. Personal decisions are just that personal. You and your significant other know your relationship better than anyone else so I say do what is best for your situation, which is exactly what you are doing.

I think that I really think that all the religious focus on sex makes people think about it more. Now that I have gotten over some of the guilt associated with it I actually feel like I am able to make better decisions. Waiting doesn't seem like such a big deal. The teaching of the purity movement is a lot different that what you are describing.

/end rambling. The purity culture stuff is always something that gets me riled up.

[DrWhat]

Slut shaming and prude shaming are equally despicable. Anybody who spends their time putting value judgements on women's sexual decisions is feeding into the culture of allowing sex to determine a woman's worth.

We need to teach these kids not just the mechanics of sex and sexual health, but the ways that a healthy view of sexuality and one's body contribute to healthy relationships with self and partners. Unfortunately, the complexity of this issue is difficult to teach. My ex-husband was my first sexual partner and there is no way I could have understood how many ways a good sexual relationship is vital to a marriage until it went wrong. In other words, I was as informed as I could have possibly been going into it, but until you have had a sexual relationship you can never really know why it is so important.

Basically, just as I think it is important to date in order to learn and practice good relationship skillz (how to fight, how to learn which traits you can/can't tolerate) I think premarital sex is important to learn similar skills. Before dating I never would have guessed that excessive romance actually makes me feel less appreciated because it takes so little thought or personalization to make cookie-cutter gestures. Before having a crappy sexual relationship I would never have guessed that sex was so intertwined with having good communication with many guys because for them this is how they feel acknowledged/loved. I also did not know what I liked/hated (humping my leg while I'm sleeping to proposition me? Turns me off more than ANYTHING) so therefore there was no way to determine whether my partner could meet these needs or even what I was supposed to get out of it.

Everyone should make their own decision and not base anyone's worth off of their choice. But my advice to my 20-year-old self would be: With any decision more information is better, and premarital sex=information.

[idonthaveajname]

I grew up (and still live in) the South, and I was taught to stay a virgin until marriage. I think the main reason was because my parents didn't want me to get pregnant because it would bring shame on the family. Maybe for religious reasons, but maybe other social reasons as well. I'm not sure.

I didn't stay a virgin, but I didn't get pregnant either. So I guess it's all good.

[flojo]

I had no idea that it was that closely related to your ability to be a "full" Christian. Fascinating! Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I moved town and churches when I was 23. I had a full time dependent (my brother with a disability), a degree, ran our household and taught 11-13 year olds (in my second year of teaching at the time). The church tried and tried to make me join the youth group, yet welcomed my 19 year old friend who was engaged with open arms to 'adult' events etc. once i made it clear tht i wasnt interested in playing teenager (after being told things like there was a young adults group, to turn up and find myself as the only one above 18 or out of high school), they tried to convince me to be a mentor. When I finally convinced them to get off my case about youth group, certain members stopped talking to me altogether.

[Childless]

I moved town and churches when I was 23. I had a full time dependent (my brother with a disability), a degree, ran our household and taught 11-13 year olds (in my second year of teaching at the time). The church tried and tried to make me join the youth group, yet welcomed my 19 year old friend who was engaged with open arms to 'adult' events etc. once i made it clear tht i wasnt interested in playing teenager (after being told things like there was a young adults group, to turn up and find myself as the only one above 18 or out of high school), they tried to convince me to be a mentor. When I finally convinced them to get off my case about youth group, certain members stopped talking to me altogether.

You see, I don't understand this at all. Who in the hell would want people in their early twenties in youth groups with high school students? Weren't there parents that felt this was wrong? There are so many potential issues that could happen in this scenario.

[TrueRebel1]

I do wonder, though, if that particular virginity fixation was messing with her head. Is it possible that she was so used to stopping him that she had trouble switching gears on the wedding night? Was she allowing herself to feel sexual? Could it be that after the divorce, she left her old baggage behind and allowed herself to be "naughty"?

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding most fundies who are virgins until marriage. Before the wedding, it's a constant pushing away of passion, chemistry, and sexual thoughts. Then in one night you not only have to become a woman with a sexual persona, you have to find that connection and passion with the particular person you're marrying.

I speak as a former fundie who was a virgin until my wedding night. Wouldn't do it again, wouldn't recommend it to my daughter! You don't know who someone really is until you've had sex, and lived with them. And I don't think it's honest to yourself or a spouse to commit to marriage without knowing who they really are!

[yewchapel]

Even in much of mainstream evangelical culture, marrying is very much seen as part of adulthood. Most of my friends who are still in those circles are engaged within a year of finishing university. There's nothing as hostile as flojo's experience (and flojo, I'm so sorry that happened to you) but the culture is very much go to uni or become a church youth worker -> get married before 25 -> have kids within a couple of years of that.

I should also point out that sex before marriage is disapproved of in mainstream evangelical circles too - modesty is not an issue, generally, but virginity before marriage is touted as something counter-cultural and 'godly'. It's certainly the thing to aim for, if not insisted on.

[notsocommon]

But why have you chosen your wedding night? You can't expect to be taken seriously saying you just happen to have independently decided that you'll magically be ready to progress to the next stage in your sexual relationship five hours after you progress to the next stage in your legal relationship, rather than choosing that because of decades of societal pressure and tradition.

I was a virgin on my wedding day and had no trouble at all having sex that night. Waiting, alone, does not make one a prude, you know.

[salex]

You have to understand, though, that in fundagelical culture, marriage is the be all and end all of existence. Many young adults feel that way not just because of sex but because it is the only way to be fully accepted as an adult and considered a complete human and Christian. At Christian school, a chapel speaker told our students once that because marriage provides an image of Christ's relationship to the church on earth, we are not fully Christian and do not fully understand salvation until we are married. That same school had a "marriage and family" textbook that included a section on single people and how they needed to be carefully integrated into the church community because otherwise they might "become warped". While working there, I briefly attended a mega church that did not allow singles to be involved in ministries (other than the designated singles group) because they had yet to "come to the fullness of faith" (a.k.a. marriage). The beliefs about traditional "biblical" (I HATE that word) gender roles also come into play. For boys, they can't be truly and fully spiritual or masculine unless they are leading a family. For girls, the only acceptable roles (as we well know from the fundies observed here) are wife and mother. Marriage defines everything and a bad marriage is a much better alternative than being the potentially warped not fully Christian single adult.

[flojo]

You see, I don't understand this at all. Who in the hell would want people in their early twenties in youth groups with high school students? Weren't there parents that felt this was wrong? There are so many potential issues that could happen in this scenario.

I don't know if the fact I was a woman (I guess girl in their eyes) , or worked as a teacher made a difference, but yeah - I agree. Nobody asked me for a police check etc.

[August]

I don't have a problem with people who don't have sex. Especially if they made sure to permanently partner with a person who has the same level of sex drive.

Slut shaming and prude shaming are equally despicable. Anybody who spends their time putting value judgements on women's sexual decisions is feeding into the culture of allowing sex to determine a woman's worth.

We need to teach these kids not just the mechanics of sex and sexual health, but the ways that a healthy view of sexuality and one's body contribute to healthy relationships with self and partners. Unfortunately, the complexity of this issue is difficult to teach. My ex-husband was my first sexual partner and there is no way I could have understood how many ways a good sexual relationship is vital to a marriage until it went wrong. In other words, I was as informed as I could have possibly been going into it, but until you have had a sexual relationship you can never really know why it is so important.

Basically, just as I think it is important to date in order to learn and practice good relationship skillz (how to fight, how to learn which traits you can/can't tolerate) I think premarital sex is important to learn similar skills. Before dating I never would have guessed that excessive romance actually makes me feel less appreciated because it takes so little thought or personalization to make cookie-cutter gestures. Before having a crappy sexual relationship I would never have guessed that sex was so intertwined with having good communication with many guys because for them this is how they feel acknowledged/loved. I also did not know what I liked/hated (humping my leg while I'm sleeping to proposition me? Turns me off more than ANYTHING) so therefore there was no way to determine whether my partner could meet these needs or even what I was supposed to get out of it.

Everyone should make their own decision and not base anyone's worth off of their choice. But my advice to my 20-year-old self would be: With any decision more information is better, and premarital sex=information.

It doesn't take a crappy sexual relationship, or even multiple sexual relationships, but finding out that asking them to move more like this or do that with their hand sends them into a raging sulk would not be a nice thing when you're already married.

[TrueRebel1]

Wow! Just Wow! I have never heard anything like that in my life (can you tell I wasn't raised fundie?) I think my fundie brother in law was much more mainstream when his kids were in HS, so I didn't even hear that line of stuff from him!