Natural Family Planning?

[luckylassie]

I wonder (this is probably not allowed in fundie circles) if any of these giant families would ever consider something like NFP. If Michelle believes that the pill caused a miscarriage then why didn't they just use other methods that did not involve hormones or pills? I understand that they now decided to totally leave their family size "up to God" but just a thought. By the way, the Duggar fan fiction forum is growing rapidly! It's so much fun to make crazy scenarios about the Duggars. I'm still hoping for more comments on them.

[Witsec6]

It's totally allowed in Catholic churches and Orthodox churches, but I think that QF would consider it "meddling with God's plan for your fertility".

I think that by this logic, QF-ers shouldn't use maps (you should trust God's plan for your directions), cash (you should trust God's plan to provide items for you to live on), electrical generators and lightbulbs (you should trust God's plan for your consumption of light), or clothing (you should trust God's plan for your body temperature).

It's absolutely ridiculous and illogical, but there you go.

[Witsec6]

As an aside, my husband and I have been successfully child-free after using NFP for the last 5 years (Condoms are no fun, and I react badly to hormones). It is remarkably effective when you get organized.

[keen23]

They do use NFP, but for the opposite reason. I believe they track M's cycle so that they know when M is ovulating for better chance of impregnating her.

I love the idea of NFP, but as someone with a long, irregular cycle, I've NEVER been able to tell when I'm about to ovulate, and I ovulate at random days during my cycle. I've gotten pregnant as soon as 12 days after my last period, and as far out as 42 days after my last period. I got the copper IUD to go non-hormonal. The third child was conceived somewhere around 25 days after my last period.

[luckylassie]

Yeah. I haven't been using the pill for a year almost (because of the side effects). I am not sexually active now but I used to have horrible periods (irregular and heavy) but now they've been a lot better since I dropped fifty pounds.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I love the fact that NFP and any other birth control is messing with God's plan, but using IVF and/or other fertility boosters, and Michelle's reverse use of NFP to try to make a baby at her most fertile time are all ok (to the QFer's). God must really love hypocrites.

[ladypuglover]

My youngest is here due to NFP. I had a medical emergancy and along with that and the new pills my ovulation changed without warning me. We didn't mind and we of course love our "Happily Everafter" baby as we call him but in reality NFP was never a good idea for me as my cycles are every 21-28 days.

But I think they would love the fact the NFP doesn't work for some women. More babies! :doh:

[Michiru]

We have used, and still use, nfp also for about 5 years. I actually found out about the Duggars via my nfp-forum. :mrgreen:

In the beginning I thought, they were just uneducated about contraception. Also with the comment, that the pill causes misscariage. :roll:

I do hope they use it now.

[maybeizfundie]

I believe there are some methods of NFP that do not need "normal" or even regular cycles to work. Basal body temp and other signals of ovulation, not just relying on the calendar.

I do agree that fertility enhancement is hypocritical if one is QF. When I see that advocated by QF people, I comment and point it out, if I have a chance. :) I appreciate consistency.

Whether the Duggars do that though is pure speculation. It's generally useful to know one's body and what it's doing at any given time (I like being able to give my husband a warning that PMS is around the corner. :p), so keeping a general record of cycles doesn't by itself mean that one is tracking for the purpose of conceiving (or avoiding). As has been pointed out, the calendar/rythm method is not the most reliable in terms of NFP anyway. I imagine it would be even less so for someone Michelle's age, since she's heading towards "The Change" and her hormones are probably doing all kinds of interesting things.

[Beeks]

I've always thought that when Michelle says the pill "caused" her miscarriage, she doesn't mean the pill itself did, but rather that the miscarriage was a punishment from God for meddling with his plan for a bajillion babies. So in that way, NFP wouldn't be any different.

[GenerationCedarchip]

It's totally allowed in Catholic churches and Orthodox churches, but I think that QF would consider it "meddling with God's plan for your fertility".

I think that by this logic, QF-ers shouldn't use maps (you should trust God's plan for your directions), cash (you should trust God's plan to provide items for you to live on), electrical generators and lightbulbs (you should trust God's plan for your consumption of light), or clothing (you should trust God's plan for your body temperature).

It's absolutely ridiculous and illogical, but there you go.

That logic makes me absolutely crazy. If you've ever read The Way Home, Mary Pride pretty much goes down that road and says that if you're choosing to close off the delights of the marriage bed for certain days of the month (or some crap along those lines), then you are not being fully open to God's will and you're denying His possible blessings.

[GeoBQn]

I posed the question on TWOP once asking why the Duggars would forgo all forms of birth control, including non-hormonal ones like condoms and NFP. Someone answered that those would still count as having a "contraceptive mindset," which would still cause miscarriages. When I was volunteering with NARAL before I moved to another state, there was an NFP organization in town that was particularly vocal and antagonistic. A friend of mine was petitioning for low-cost birth control and one of the NFP people went up to her just to hassle her, saying they didn't see any reason why anyone should be on hormonal birth control. It's a good thing I wasn't there, because I would have gone on a major rant about how NFP would be useless in treating my PCOS.

[maybeizfundie]

erk. That's the weirdest use of "contraceptive mindset" that I've ever heard. Only ever heard it used in terms of a "wrong attitude" kind of thing, not that it *causes* miscarriages.

[browngrl]

This is off topic and I'm not ever sure this is a question or just a musing on my part - so delete as needed

I have always wondered why QF don't marry their daughters off sooner - after all there are all those wasted periods between 12ish and 18 - 21? Does the movement advise parents to marry their daughters off ASAP so as not to waste a single ovum?

[maybeizfundie]

They aren't opposed to early marriage, for the most part.

I know this is counter to popular opinion here, but not all QF are all about having as many babies as physically possible in one's life on earth. For some at least (most that I know), the "trusting God" bit extends to marriage (when it happens), and acceptance of children in whatever numbers happen to come, whether that's a big or small family.

[PhoenixFeathers]

I think there is a difference between being open to how many children God has for you and trying to have as many children as "God has for you" (or as many as possible, in other words.)

My hubby and I are open to however many children God has for us. Sort of :) Mainly we don't have a set number of kids that we want, that we will stop at. But if we have two and feel "we're done" then we have two. If its 4, then its 4. I have a lot of siblings, he has two. So we are flexible.

Were using NFP/FAM because I do not want to be on the pill. True NFP is abstaining during fertile times. We don't abstain except on the most fertile days. We just use rubbers when its risky. No need to deprive ourselves 8-)

[nutella addict]

Yeah, NFP wouldn't be able to regulate my highly irregular cycle, take away my cramps, or clear up my severe acne...I have no intention of changing to something else when I get married. I'd probably also screw up NFP with my completely unpredictable cycle, and as much as I love kids, I need to work a few years first before I can afford any "precious surprise blessings". (Oh, wait, the fundies would say I'm not showing enough *faith*)

And they do actually teach that the pill *causes* miscarriages, despite a COMPLETE LACK of medical evidence. Sadly that fallacy is spreading even to the non-fundie-but-still-conservative Christians. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they also teach about "contraceptive mindsets" being a reason for God's punishment in the form of a miscarriage. Because that's incredibly logical. You don't want a baby, so God will punish you by...granting your wish? Much of the attitude against contraception, I believe, is a combination of keeping women in the home and dominionism, even when they don't admit to it, which explains the hypocrisy of trying for as many babies as possible.

I believe they also encourage young marriage, or at least don't discourage it...

[TVR]

I think that the blanket definition of fundie is sometimes a problem. When we speak of ATI-fundies and we KNOW that Gothard teaches a particular way or when someone blabs on and on and on on their blogs about exactly what they believe, it is easy to comment on it. But there are loads of people out there who let God plan their families that couldn't care less about dominion; who are in egalitarian marriages; who listen to music (even rock, although I would say mainly Christian rock); who are not dresses only; who encourage something more serious that dating; but not something as restrictive as courting; who don't believe that God talks to daughters through their fathers; who dance; who drink wine; who encourage their kids to go to university/collage (girls and boys); who take their children's schooling seriously and although they believe in God and bring their kids up with that faith, they don't expect blind obedience and no questioning; who don't believe in SAHD; who definitely don't encourage early marriage; who shudder at the thought of chaperones; families where the husbands work in the corporate field and has NO desire to start their own business; where dads won't even dream of asking about their daughters' periods; where families believe in gentle christian parenting and don't spank/beat their kids etc. etc. etc. Yet, they get lumped under the QF label and although in the strictest sense they are QF, they don't subscribe to all the stuff that comes with that.

[PhoenixFeathers]

I think that the blanket definition of fundie is sometimes a problem. When we speak of ATI-fundies and we KNOW that Gothard teaches a particular way or when someone blabs on and on and on on their blogs about exactly what they believe, it is easy to comment on it. But there are loads of people out there who let God plan their families that couldn't care less about dominion; who are in egalitarian marriages; who listen to music (even rock, although I would say mainly Christian rock); who are not dresses only; who encourage something more serious that dating; but not something as restrictive as courting; who don't believe that God talks to daughters through their fathers; who dance; who drink wine; who encourage their kids to go to university/collage (girls and boys); who take their children's schooling seriously and although they believe in God and bring their kids up with that faith, they don't expect blind obedience and no questioning; who don't believe in SAHD; who definitely don't encourage early marriage; who shudder at the thought of chaperones; families where the husbands work in the corporate field and has NO desire to start their own business; where dads won't even dream of asking about their daughters' periods; where families believe in gentle christian parenting and don't spank/beat their kids etc. etc. etc. Yet, they get lumped under the QF label and although in the strictest sense they are QF, they don't subscribe to all the stuff that comes with that.

I think you're describing me... though we are big classic rock fans in this house. We like our Bon Jovi and Journey.

Well, that and I wouldn't say we are QF really. Instead of "leaving it up to God" we are "letting God lead". Which means we look at our circumstances, want to be smart about when we will bring children in this world. (Though if there's a surprise, we'll take it).

That being said. I completely agree with you. I know other families who choose not to use and BC, and mostly NFP/FAM, and they are far from Fundie Christians.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that the blanket definition of fundie is sometimes a problem. When we speak of ATI-fundies and we KNOW that Gothard teaches a particular way or when someone blabs on and on and on on their blogs about exactly what they believe, it is easy to comment on it. But there are loads of people out there who let God plan their families that couldn't care less about dominion; who are in egalitarian marriages; who listen to music (even rock, although I would say mainly Christian rock); who are not dresses only; who encourage something more serious that dating; but not something as restrictive as courting; who don't believe that God talks to daughters through their fathers; who dance; who drink wine; who encourage their kids to go to university/collage (girls and boys); who take their children's schooling seriously and although they believe in God and bring their kids up with that faith, they don't expect blind obedience and no questioning; who don't believe in SAHD; who definitely don't encourage early marriage; who shudder at the thought of chaperones; families where the husbands work in the corporate field and has NO desire to start their own business; where dads won't even dream of asking about their daughters' periods; where families believe in gentle christian parenting and don't spank/beat their kids etc. etc. etc. Yet, they get lumped under the QF label and although in the strictest sense they are QF, they don't subscribe to all the stuff that comes with that.

I'm not being snarky - but link some blogs of people like that, because I don't know of any. Not even that I don't know of loads, I don't know of any.

[PhoenixFeathers]

maybe we just don't blog?

[Guest Anonymous]

I think you're describing me... though we are big classic rock fans in this house. We like our Bon Jovi and Journey.

Well, that and I wouldn't say we are QF really. Instead of "leaving it up to God" we are "letting God lead". Which means we look at our circumstances, want to be smart about when we will bring children in this world. (Though if there's a surprise, we'll take it).

That being said. I completely agree with you. I know other families who choose not to use and BC, and mostly NFP/FAM, and they are far from Fundie Christians.

That right there means not QF, to me.

[Boltingmadonna]

I spent a lot of (fertile) years being a conservative Catholic, and my impression is that NFP is kind of self-selecting thing. It works great for those for whom it works great . . . the rest of us, not so much. But the only response you'll ever get when you bring up problems is "Ur Doin' It Rong!!" Or that maybe you're just kind of a slut with little self-control, so if you get pregnant, you deserve it, because doggone it, you just had to go ahead and have Teh Sexxx!

Now, I admit that NFP has become much more high-tech and probably more accurate than it used to be forty years ago when I got married. But it still requires you to not have sex for a big percentage of days in the month, including the fertile times when most women want sex the most. I think fertility awareness is a great idea, and every woman would ideally be taught this knowledge, just so we could know what is going on with our own bodies. And NFP might not even be a bad idea--IF you could either use condoms during fertile times, or practice forms of sex that can't get you pregnant. But Catholics aren't allowed to do either of those things. I think NFP for Catholics is a big plot by the hierarchy to get people so starved for intimacy that they'll give in and have sex at a fertile time, then--yay! Surprise baby! Praise the Lord . . . .

That said, it would be a lot better than nothing for most fundies. But since their whole thing is that God wants them to be permanently pregnant, NFP would be just as evil as any other method of thwarting God's little sperm warriors from their godly mission.

No offense intended to those for whom NFP works well--I say, more power to you. I only object to it when it's presented as something everybody MUST do whether they find it beneficial or not.

[Jessica]

NFP hasn't worked for me. I charted my temperature every morning for about 6 months and the pattern was that there was no clear pattern. My temps went up and down dramaticallyall through my cycle. It'd be 96.5 one day then 98.2 the next, then back down in the 96s, then up, down. I was taking it at the same time every day and doing everything "right". My temperature is just out of its mind! :P

[TVR]

Not everyone feels that they have to fap fap fap about their lives on the internet and to the world. Some of us can actually live our lives without sharing every minute, irrelevant detail with the world, LOL!

I fall within that category and since I can't even keep a diary or a family blog for our family who live far away, I can't imagine sitting and writing for hours about stuff that no-one cares about.

I have a blog, but since it is for my business only, it is irrelevant. Most people I know are far too busy to blog (I always wonder about those who have hours a day writing absolutely inane nonsense).

Off hand I can think of 12 families whom I know IRL who fall within the group I mentioned. I can think of a lot more that I have met on large family fora. People who don't post on places like the QF forum; or Above Rubies etc. because they want "big family" support but not the feelings of burden.