Spanking

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InkyGirl (06/06/11 19:27:04)

With all the Kendall fun concerning her Spanking Day, I've been wondering - Who here was spanked as a child? I myself was. My Mom is the one I remember doing the spanking, I never remember my Dad ever spanking me, he tended to do more reasoning and discussions. My Mom also has a wooden spoon, though I never remember is being used anywhere other than our behinds. It did tend to strike fear in my brother and I's heart when he saw it come out.

Freyacat (06/06/11 19:30:28)

I was never spanked, and I was taught that hitting is always wrong unless in self defense. My parents are disgusted by spanking and have passed that attitude on to me. I personally think spanking is solely for parents to feel powerful and/or take out their anger on someone weak enough they can't fight back.

debrand (06/06/11 19:31:10)

I was spanked and switched. A switch is a limber branch that wraps around the child's limbs. It leaves little red welts. A lot of southerners, for reasons that I don't understand, were switched as children. Yes, it produced outwardly polite and obedient children but many of my friends were sneaky and weren't very close to their parents.

erunerune

If it's wrong to hit an adult, it's wrong to hit a kid. In my opinion it is lowest-common-denominator parenting even in the mildest of circumstances.

Also, the whole "do not spank in anger" thinking is bullshit: You are hitting your child, do you think it makes a difference to the kid if you feel extra-good about yourself for staying calm while doing it? NO. Hitting your kid is hitting your kid.

Editing to add that my parents spanked me. See "lowest-common-denominator parenting."

xInkyGirl (06/06/11 19:33:48)

My Mom talked about getting switched as a child and yep, she's southern. She remembers having to go out and find her switch and if it was too little, whew, was she in trouble!

That always seemed kind of cruel to me.

bozoette (06/06/11 19:35:32)

I was spanked once. I was four years old. I wouldn't eat my dinner, I was whining, and generally being a total brat. My mom sent to me bed, but as I left the dinner table, my pop called me back, turned me over his knee and spanked me. It was only three or four spanks, but boy oh boy was I ever surprised and shocked. I never acted up at dinner again.

Austin (06/06/11 19:36:46)

Not spanked.

cassandra (06/06/11 19:37:20)

I was spanked once in my life, and its because I ran in front of a bus at age 4 on purpose.

I remember it very very well, and 100% learned my lesson.

Aside from that I was never hit.

haveapicniclife (06/06/11 19:38:55)

I was spanked occasionally, hit with wooden or plastic cooking spoons more often. Flat out slapped across the face once. Yep, good times.

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SnarkyJan (06/06/11 19:39:12)

I never got spanked. The closest I ever came to being, spanked maybe 4-5 times during my childhood, my mother swatted me once or twice on my (fully clothed) posterior and she acted under extreme provocation. (I was a singularly aggravating kid.) The thought of making me or my sister pull down our underpants and bend over, or any of the other rituals I've seen recounted would have squicked out either or both of my parents.

twin2 (06/06/11 19:42:45)

My parents used spanking as a method of discipline. I was a pretty good kid so I don't remember getting spanked much. Personally, I do not believe that anyone was a right to inflict physical pain an anyone else, be they adult or child (unless its between two consenting adults). I will never spank my children, even if I believed in spanking I don't think I could do it. I also agree with erunerune that the "do not spank in anger" is bullshit. Maybe some parents can actually do it, but every spanking I remember seeing from my parents or anyone else, the administrate was angry. Kid did something wrong, that made the parent angry, spanking ensued. Great lesson to teach children, someone makes you mad, hit them.

The Archivist (06/06/11 19:43:13)

I was spanked only infrequently, but was slapped in the face once or twice. I was more hurt by the slapping, as it happened when I was older.

Caelem (06/06/11 19:44:26)

I got the classic wooden-spoon-across-the-butt a few times. All four of us did: we were pretty willful and aggravating. Fortunately the majority of us have grown out of it. I also remember my mother keeping a fly swatter in the car on long road trips. That was usually for my brothers.

Beeks (06/06/11 19:47:47)

my mom spanked pretty regularly (and ALWAYS in anger, hahaha), slapped me in the face once, and my dad completely lost his shit and REALLY knocked the crap out of me one time, leaving some massive bruising. The only one I resent is the bruising from my dad because 1) I didn't do anything to deserve it and 2) my mom totally sided with my dad and nobody ever apologized to me or acknowledged it was wrong. And it was.

Lissar (06/06/11 19:51:33)

My siblings and me were spanked with hairbrushes, wooden spoons, fly-swatters, yard sticks, wire coathangers, switches, paint stirrers, custom made for spanking paddles, and open hands. In short, whatever my mother grabbed when she was angry with us, and sometimes just when she was angry. I never remember feeling that I deserved a spanking, and it certainly never improved my attitude. I was an unhappy little kid, and the spanking made me resentful, angry, distrustful, and even more unhappy.

I was a very sensitive child and even yelling at me hurt my feelings, I don't think spanking was ever needed. I wanted to please my mother and time out or grounding would have been effective punishment. My oldest sister was considered to be the more "rebellious" one and she probably got hit at least five times as much as I did. I think the last time that my mother hit me was when I was 15.

I have almost no relationship with my mother now, I haven't spoken to her for six months. The only reason I haven't completely cut ties is that I have two younger siblings still at home that I try to keep in touch with and support however I can. As soon as the kids are all 18, that's it for me, I will have no contact if at all possible. Spanking is far from the only issue in my screwed up family (thanks, fundamentalism!) but it's a big one that I have no desire to propagate.

If I ever have kids I never, ever want to hit them. It's taken me a long time to get to the point of feeling that I have worked through enough of my fucked up childhood baggage to be a good mom. I would rather not have kids than have them and do a shitty job raising them.

(My mom is divorced from my biological dad, he says he spanked me once but I must have been very young because I have no memory of it.)

Fat Actress (06/06/11 19:51:52)

I was spanked until I was 13 years old. I remember going through puberty and still being required to pull my pants and underwear down. It was foul and offensive. I was also required to sit on my fathers lap in order right after (clothed again) and apologize. If I was angry, still crying or just not sufficiently "sweet", then I was in more trouble. Spanking only encouraged me to hide my real self away and put on a front.

The saddest thing I have ever witnessed was my two year old Niece spanked. She was not eating her dinner and whining at the table. Her father was annoyed that he had to stop his conversation to engage with her, so he took her off to spank her. She came back with red welts on her hands and arms where she had tried to stop the beating. (that is what spanking is, beating) She finished the rest of her food through sobs and with threats of more spanking. Eventually she threw up and over the next few days showed that she had the flu. I'm haunted to this day by the fact that I did nothing while hearing her cry out. Even at 15 I knew it was wrong, but out of fear I let a little one suffer.

Spanking is always wrong. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Koala (06/06/11 19:54:52)

Lissar and Fat Actress~ I am so sorry you guys had to go through that. Your stories absolutely break my heart.

keeperrox (06/06/11 19:55:38)

I got spanked maybe a handful of times and it was definitely out of anger/frustration, and not out of love. I can only remember 2 times, but I'm pretty sure there were one or two others as well. There were also a few of instances of my mother slapping me in the face (the two spankings that I remember were done by my father). It was always because of my mouth. My mother call it "fresh", but bitch was probably a better word. I don't think I deserved to be hit and I won't do it to my own future children, but I also don't hold it against my parents in any way. There are other things I hold against my mother, but not that. They were both spanked growing up in the 50's and 60's and I honestly think they didn't know what else to do in the situation (which doesn't make it right, but still...). I don't consider them abusive in any way, shape, or form.

ETA:

I could have written this.

amie (06/14/45 14:07:41)

.

My mom too! She and her siblings had to select their own switches from the tree. How awful.

I was spanked (hand only), though infrequently. It wasn't particularly effective. For example, once when I was 2-years-old, I refused to pick up my toys. Repeated requests and several swats on my behind later, I wound up, slapped my mom across the face, and cried, "You stop hitting me!" Guess who picked up the toys? (Hint: It wasn't me.)

Last Edited By: amie 06/07/11 02:34:18. Edited 3 times.

failsafe (06/14/78 14:07:41)

I got spanked, I guess you could say. I only remember it once, after my dad had spanked my little sister for something or another and she was crying. My mom came in and gave my sister a hug and went, "Honey, don't hurt the baby," and I looked at my dad and went, "YEAH. Don't hurt the baby, you... you... you mean old PIG!"

All I remember is my dad glaring at me and going "Come here..." I am pretty sure I got spanked after that but spankings for us were one or perhaps two swats on a fully clothed bottom. The idea of making your kid undress for a spanking (as someone who dabbles in the kink world, admittedly) seems creepy and sexual and makes me uncomfortable. And even though I don't think spanking scarred me or anything, I don't plan on spanking my kids. I can and do get angry and frustrated in my life and do not have an uncontrollable compelling urge to hit the person or people making me that angry. I assume that will not change once I have children, and I think impulse control is a good thing to model for kids anyway ("Watch how mommy doesn't hit you right now even though she reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally wants to" ) Kidding!

Feberin (06/06/11 20:05:28) \

I was apparently spanked once when I was a toddler but never again after that and I can't remember it. My in-laws however are very pro-spanking and we've been told that there is no way we will be able to raise our son without spanking him. I hope he is a well behaved child so that we can show that you don't have to spank.

[Elle]

The way it was in my house is we were given a first warning. Then we were given a second warning. Then we were given a final warning. Sometimes this final warning came with a "creative" punishment, like writing sentences. Anyway, if we misbehaved again, then we were spanked. Never ever was spanking the first line, and only after ample warning. We had the chance to avoid it, but if we chose to misbehave a fourth time...

I have no problem with spanking IF it's AFTER multiple warnings and isn't excessive or with things like switches, pipes, etc., or given while still in the heat of being angry. Like it or not, sometimes some kids just won't behave any other way, and it's not always a sign of bad parenting. Some kids behave perfectly fine without ever receiving even one spanking. Some don't. I remember an ex's aunt and uncle didn't believe in spanking, and their oldest child was out of control and even said that he didn't have any reason to listen because he'd just walk out of the house if they grounded him. Kids can't get out of spankings by walking away.

I read an interesting article a few years back on why poorer parents are more likely to spank. Families that have more have more options. Families with more can take away TV time or privileges, things poorer families don't always have. Taking away a cell phone or video game time only works if you have those things.

This is one of those things where families need to find what works best, starting with the mildest methods. No, it should NEVER reach beating kids with pipes, and spanking shouldn't happen simply because a kid looks like he's just THINKING about disobeying.

[emeraldskull]

I was spanked as a kid, but I was pretty bratty... LOL... My parents never beat us, so I don't feel like the experience traumatized me at all, and they have gotten more lax over the years anyhow. I was the 4th of 12, so my childhood was still somewhat in my parents still "learning" stage, I guess you could say. But they avoided spanking if they could. A lot of times they would just threaten, if we continued misbehavior, and that worked for the most part.

Myself, I am leaning towards no-spanking parenting, when it comes around to having my own kids... though I can't really say much at this point, since I don't have any kids. :-)

[Elle]

Emerald, my parents gave multiple warnings and creative punishments to try avoid getting to that stage. Funny thing...some of those creative punishments are hilarious in retrospect. One was my brother and I were fighting like crazy and insulting each other. So our parents told us to shut up and draw what we felt, and we ended up trying to one-up each other by drawing insults. We ended up laughing our asses off, and I still have those pictures. But I remember the day I saw my dad's face after he spanked me, and he had tears in his eyes. He had once said, "This hurts me more than it hurts you," and I realized he meant it. He was raised in the ol' south where whips on kids was common. And my mom? Well, she and her siblings were switches every morning as pre-punishment for any misbehaving they MIGHT do that day that they didn't get caught doing. If they were caught, they were beaten again, and...well, I've mentioned some of it before.

I'm certainly not traumatized but it. I understand my punishments. Kids understand warnings. They don't understand lining up in the morning waiting their turn to be whipped with thin tree branches a dozen times without doing anything wrong or to get a whipping with a bull whip without any warnings to know a wrong had been committed. It's not all black and white, all or nothing, but the Pearls of this world certainly make it seem that way.

Also I knew as a kid the difference between adults and kids and that parents had a responsibility to teach their kids and administer punishments that kids didn't have the right to do to each other because our parents talked to us about it. Spankings are reserved for discipline, kids don't discipline other kids, and any other hitting is self-defense only. We grew up non-violent.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

I was smacked as a kid too, not often (and I was a bratty kid) but my parents said they would never do that today. Back in the early 80s it was very acceptable. Not now. Well not in Australia

And awesome blog with a post about smacking from the daughter of fundamentalist parents:

http://ayoungmomsmusingsDOTblogspot.com ... -fear.html

I LOVE this blog

[Shirley MacLaine]

I was spanked and beaten or just yelled at or sent into my room or grounded or calmly talked to or whatever and whatever punishment I got really depended on the mood of the day. The spankings and the more intense abusive shit are definitely lumped together in my mind.

[treemom]

Just an FYI, I am not done raputring this thread...I still have like 7 pages to go. I just got busy.

[fundifugee]

InkyGirl (06/06/11 19:27:04)

Me too, Lissar. I could have written this post myself.

I think the worst part of the whole thing is the humiliation, and then later the fear of someone you are biologically programmed to love and trust.

It is even worse when done in anger.

We got it from both parents.

Our dad used to beat the dog, too, as punishment, and once beat my dog to death. For a long time, I was afraid to get my own dog because I wondered if I'd do the same thing (I have a really foul temper in common with my dad). To this day, I cannot hear a person being hit or a dog crying without ending up in tears, or worse, myself. I avoid most family functions because all my sibs still believe in hitting their kids (and dogs).

I have a child (and dogs) now and and made it an absolute non-negotiable rule for myself that I will not use any type of physical punishment.

I think I have mastered physical nonviolence, but I have frequent times when I feel like my brain needs re-programing. Usually in times of stress or emotion, I end up in a super dark place -- either 'this is god's punishment' or 'I should humiliate this kid to get her to quit being so obnoxious'.

Has anyone else struggled with this, and do you have any advice on how to change it? Resources, hard-and-fast rules (like no hitting) that might work for other parenting approaches, etc?

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Fat Actress (06/06/11 18:05:33)

Thank you. It's actually only been recently that I have worked through my own experiences with spanking. As a child and teen I bought into the idea of "sin nature" completely. I felt guilty for my feelings of disgust, anger, and even humiliation, certain they were a sinful reaction. Having my own child and discovering attachment parentlng started my path to healing.

Sanveanne (06/06/11 18:05:40)

I was spanked on occasion -- until I was too old (preteen or so), I feel, but only by my mom, with her hand (never a belt or anything), and never without pants or underwear on.

It was most DEFINITELY done in anger -- my mom was SO not the type to sit down and have a discussion and then mete out a measured spanking. It was more of the "WHAT did you do?! Get over here!" sort of spanking.

That said, I don't feel I was abused. I definitely feel now that I'm a mom that my parents could have used better parenting methods, but the way they parented was pretty much the norm at the time (I was born in '76). I'm not sure I knew any kids who WEREN'T spanked, at least occasionally, and I was a pretty well-behaved kid for the most part, so they must have figured that whatever they were doing was working, so why change?

emmyfair (06/06/11 18:08:46)

I was spanked, slapped, pushed, hit with objects, had my hair pulled and used to drag me, had things thrown at me, and was whipped with a belt. But you know what hurts worse and I remember so clearly even to this day? The verbal attacks - being told I was no good, stupid, lazy, worthless, and not wanted. In my more fragile moments, the memories of what I was told as a child makes me want to throw up.

THIS is why fundies make me crazy. No child should live through the hell I did, bible or not.

Ugg. I need a beer.

Fat Actress (06/06/11 18:11:39)

I don't have a beer, but I have a ((hug)) It's always the words that hurt the most.

Markie (06/06/11 18:19:01)

I was a sensitive child who liked to please my parents. I was spanked a few times, fully clothed. I remember one time a friend and I decided to walk home from school (we lived out in the country) and the bus driver had the cops out looking for us - I got a spanking when I got home...

Another time I don't remember was apparently when I was about 2. My older sister could cross the road and go to her friends' but I had to stay in the yard. My did looked out and saw me playing in the middle of the road. He grabbed me and gave me a swat on the butt, and was about to give me another one, when our neighbour's dog grabbed his sleeve and wouldn't let him. I loved "King"!

theologygeek (06/06/11 18:35:27)

When my first child was born, I told everyone that if they ever laid a hand on one of my children, they would 1) die and 2) never see them again. I was also told that I would never be able to raise children without hitting them. I raised them all without ever laying a hand on them.

Austin (06/06/11 18:50:24)

Emmy, FatActress, and everyone else who was brutalized: (((hugs))).

[Angri-la]

We were beaten as children, but they called it discipline. Dad used a belt, mom preferred the wooden spoon. I hold the family record for most spoons broken on my butt, thank you very much. I used to laugh at her, which made her even angrier. They stopped the practice with my younger sister (6 years my junior, and after my sister who was lost @ 2). I turned out fine, but I sure as hell will not be laying a finger on my girl. And no, this is not something I will change my mind about once she is living with me.

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Patsy (06/06/11 18:52:44)

I was smacked infrequently and don't have any issue with it, but I'd prefer not do it with my own kids (I say prefer because I don't have kids yet... who can say what they will or won't do?) Also bitten when I bit which I know sounds weird, but I don't remember it.

I found it far more distressing to have my emotions ignored or denied, whether that was through dismissing me, laughing at me, or smacking me/putting me in time-out instead of hearing me out. I find the insistence on suppression of self in fundy circles FAR more abusive than the corporal punishment itself.

booksnbeats (06/06/11 18:57:52)

I was spanked as well as abused. Sometimes it was an "orderly" ass spanking. However, my dad insisted on spanking my bare ass until I was 12 or 13. Sometimes they just beat the shit out of me. Ugh.

MuseMama (06/06/11 18:58:48)

I was spanked. I don't spank my kids. And my parents, with all that they know now, wish they hadn't spanked when I was younger.

MollyTrolley (06/06/11 19:06:32)

I was spanked regularly by my mother but I especially remember the times I was spanked for something I didn't do. I don't know at what age I decided not to give her the satisfaction of crying and begging her to stop but the spankings stopped soon after. The emotional abuse continued long afterward.

I never spanked my two (now adult) daughters. There were very few timeouts, and a single grounding when the oldest was a teenager. And, surprise, they are far more mature, responsible, and compassionate than I ever was at their age.

notTHATkind (06/06/11 19:09:00)

Never spanked.

I remember being absolutely horrified when, at the age of 7, a friend's dad told us to quiet down or he would take out his belt. I was raised by my mother until I was 12 and she got remarried and she never, ever, ever, hit us. I remember that my (awful) stepdad once hit my brother and I was absolutely enraged and when I told my mother she didn't do anything (although he never hit him again after I threatened to call CPS). That has been a formative experience in my life, and I just can't imagine the terror that children who had it way way worse all through their childhoods. I know that most of these parents don't think they're doing anything wrong, but it makes me feel ill to know that children are STILL being regularly beaten.

Jencendiary (06/06/11 19:11:48)

I was spanked. Rarely, if ever, was my infraction explained to me in a "Why this is wrong" context. It was obey or be punished.

I became a spectacular liar.

luckylibrarian (06/06/11 19:15:41)

I don't know what to write in response to all of these stories. I'm horrified, and "I'm so sorry" doesn't seem to do it justice. I admire every single one of you who experienced this abuse and can talk about it, and I wish new parents and veteran parents alike had to read some of these stories before having children.

I've mentioned the shitty things my parents did, but as far as actual abuse, I remember one of my closest friends in high school (who was Baptist) describe how her mother slapped her across the face for being mouthy. My friend was 18. I was shocked, and when I said it was abuse, she shrugged it off and explained that her parents often slapped her and her other sisters (including her oldest sister, who was 23.) She also said her father made a wooden paddle for each of them when they were little. He hung the paddles in the basement, and whenever one of the kids acted up, they were taken down the basement, paddled, and made to pray. To this day, I hope to God that my friend never has children because I know they will be raised exactly the same way. She totally drank the Kool-Aid and accepted that her father could hit her well into her 20s.

Doomed Harlot (06/06/11 19:23:36)

I've discussed on this site before what a negative impact spanking had on my life growing up. There are so many things about my experience that make me incredibly angry to this day.

First, having my pants pulled down was unbearably humiliating. We were a family that valued modesty -- and yet suddenly my modesty was considered totally unimportant. Moreover, the calm, ritualistic nature of my punishments (with my dad counting out loud) made the whole thing seem much worse. I felt sub-human.

Second, my crimes did not seem to warrant the degradation I was subjected to. I was punished for things like being cranky or forgetting my chores. But these things aren't really misbehavior so much as just being human. Even adults get cranky or forgetful. The only reason I was subjected to ritualistic humiliation was that I was small and helpless. One spanking happened when I was trying to joke around with my father at age 5. This was the beginning of the end of the affectionate relationship we had when I was very small. We had been tickling each other and I claimed that he started it (when in fact I had started it). It was obvious that I had started it, but I was just trying to be funny by saying he started it. He decided that I was lying and I got punished repeatedly until I admitted that I was lying.

Third, I was a compliant, people-pleasing child. (Indeed, I think most kids ultimately want to please their parents.) I wanted to be good and do the right thing -- so why the humiliating punishments to get me to comply?

Fourth, my dad is intelligent and well-educated. He should have known better. Yet he takes the rightness of his behavior as self-evident, and makes foolish arguments -- like his claim that a whole generation in Sweden has supposedly grown up boorish and rude due to the ban on spanking.

I firmly believe that I was victimized by a malevolent bully. I understand that some parents spank because they honestly believe it's the right thing to do. In my case, my father may have "believed" that, but his belief was a rationalization to cover darker motivations. He himself was a victim of some pretty awful child abuse, and I think he had to "pass it on" so to speak.

alphaeta08 (06/06/11 19:28:10)

Spanked a few times, slapped a few times, no big deal. I don't know anyone who wasn't (I'm 21). I'm obviously not discounting the others' experiences, and some stuff is on a whole other level, but it wasn't a big deal for me. My mom and I don't get along very well, but it doesn't have anything to do with things that happened 15 years ago. It's more like we're just not a good fit, personality-wise.

Last Edited By: alphaeta08 06/06/11 19:32:13. Edited 2 times.

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Spartan89 (06/06/11 19:39:46)

Yes. I was spanked and shoved pretty regularly, and slapped in the face probably a couple times a year until about age 17. Those were terrible experiences, and my parents have apologized and asked my forgiveness. It was an odd situation, because apart from that occasional abuse, my parents were really amazing. They deeply cared for me, and I always knew I was loved. It was definitely an anger management issue, because they only hit me when they were truly furious.

I feel that I need to work through the situation more before I have kids. I have forgiven my parents completely, but I'm terrified that as a result of being raised around violence I will lose control and hit my children in anger. I want to be sure that won't happen, because the whole situation was emotionally traumatizing.

DidiKeppel (06/06/11 19:39:54)

i was spanked tons growing up - i really only remember like 3 or 4 of them. while i think my parents WERE abusive in some ways and at sometimes the fact that they spanked wasn't one of them.

hubby and i will probably spank when/if we have kids, but a few swats not these horribly long sessions i read about on some blogs.

Sophie (06/06/11 20:01:59)

I was slapped several times. Not on a regular basis (I was very nice and I never asked a question I knew the answer would be no) but what I remember from those times she hit me was that 1. she was very angry and 2. I did not deserve it.

One time was because I bent down while at the table and the table went with me, we had company (it was a small table) with just the 3 of us kids at the time (me and my friend and her sister) I was 6-8, and she hit me, put me in my room for the rest of their visiting and of course no desert. I mean seriously like I did it on purpose.

One time I was a teen I locked her out of the apartment, did not realize it, she just had to ring the bell got hit she was so mad.

and I remember whne I was like 8-10 she put her hand in the air and I cowered and she mocked me because I did not know what abuse was, and she hardly ever hit me. I was very shocked at the time, now I think this is so crazy to go against your child's first instincts to protect itself.

I know my best friend got slapped hard by her dad (who had had the time to drive for an hour and a half). I told her that if it ever happenned while I'm in the house I'd call the cops.

The justification written in the other thread sometimes make me want to puke (litterally). I just can't believe you can write them and re-read yourself and find it normal. I don't really want to be offensive for people who believe it's ok, but still it's just not.

InkyGirl (06/06/11 20:12:53)

These stories break my heart and bring back some memories. I wouldn't say I had a bad childhood, I was pretty happy but I was also, like many of of you said, very sensitive one harsh word and I would cry which would often make my mother angry. And like many of you said all the spankings I remember were in anger. I don't know how you can hit another person without being angry. I mena really, "I'm not angry but I'm going to hit you." What kind of crap is that?

lilwriter85 (06/06/11 20:35:25)

I was spanked a few times as a kid but the stuff I did was pretty bad. Overall I didn't do a lot of extremely bad things.

thoughtful (06/06/11 20:40:21)

My heart goes out to the folks posting here who suffered abuse.

My Dad did some spanking, and once really lost it on me and briefly beat me (ironically, because he'd been terrified for my safety). Spanking never did a damned thing except make me feel unjustly accused and resentful.

Fear of spanking or being yelled at was more likely to make me cover up my misbehavior (and even innocent mistakes), and/or be terrified to come home, than help me "learn my lesson."

My Mom is the talk-it-out type, although she did some yelling in her early years as a parent. She gave that up, and, instead, made the rules clear, kept things calm, reinforced what she wanted, and punished unwanted behavior with loss of privilege.

Mostly she set such a good example, while being so kind and enjoyable, that I just wanted to emulate her. Still do!

From both parents, I have very clear memories of loss-of-privilege punishments, and "I was an idiot about this, and just want you to be spared the pain I went through" admissions, that made an impression and changed my behavior.

My Mom and I have gotten along all my life.

My Dad and I didn't do as well, even though we really loved one another and shared a sense of humor. Happily, we both matured and mellowed, and learned to enjoy one another as adults.

amie (06/16/28 13:07:42)

It's along the lines of the "this hurts me more than it hurts you" mindfuck.

O Latin (06/06/11 21:00:06)

I was not spanked, although I knew many people my age (I'm 21) who were, including some who got hit with belts, wooden spoons, etc. I do not know what I will do when/if I have kids. I wish my parents had been stricter in some way. I basically grew up with no rules (and I was the only person I knew who never got grounded) and yes, I turned out fine, but I think that's mostly because a) I made rules for myself which were, as one of my friends put it "stricter than most parents," and b) my leisure activity of choice was church choir. I felt like no one would know or care if I screwed up, which was a very lonely feeling and I don't want my future kids to grow up like that.

Well, that was more than I meant to say.

Inanna (06/06/11 21:02:16)

I grew up in the southern US, so I always felt like getting swatted on the butt by my mom occasionally (with her hand, never a belt or switch) was a pretty cushy life. I knew kids who got the belt or a paddle or a switch over the most minor infractions, like a bad grade on a spelling test or spilling juice on the rug. My mom only really got to the point of swatting me if I was being a total jackass, which - looking back with the objectivity of an adult - wasn't exactly an infrequent thing. Heh.

Some of the posts before mine are terrifying, because I imagine that this is what those other kids were going through and we just all kind of had this "well, some parents are strict" attitude. I wonder how many of my friends were being outright abused, and I didn't piece it together because I assumed that their "spankings" were the same as the half-hearted swats on the (fully clothed, thank you) behind that I was getting. :/

Lillybee (06/06/11 21:42:19)

I wasn't spanked but my mom was so proud of her self because she didn't spank, she would make fun of her friend who had a spanking paddle hung up in her kitchen.

She was so emotionally and verballly abusive that I would pray for a spanking because it might mean that all was forgiven. Even when I was in high school she would still bring up childish things that I did when I was 6 (like putting my hat on backwards).

She would pinch my feet when I spilled milk, pull hair all the time (I remember her pulling on the rollers when I had my hair set). She almost pushed me down the stairs to the basement. I grabbed the bannister so I didn't fall. She slapped me more than a few times. I remember that when she got violent, our boxer would jump up and try to push her away from me.

Posting this has brought up memories, that I thought I had buried long ago.

But she didn't spank.

mstee (06/06/11 21:52:16)

I was never spanked or hit. Both of my parents were raised being spanked (my mom was actually abused terribly and still has nightmares), and my mom made the decision to break the cycle and not hit me. My dad is a pretty relaxed person for the most part, but has no in-between calm and rage. I was 8 years old, and had never seen that side of my dad and we got into an argument about something stupid, and it escalated. It was weird because he didn't lay a hand on me, but I got so terrified of him that I ended up locking myself in a closet. This happened a few more times as a teenager, and the incidents were pretty terrible. And every time, I was made to apologize to him. Yes, I was probably a brat, but he ended up threatening my life those times and that is not okay. Just until recently, my mom (whom I am close to and who usually was very sensitive towards me) said how those incidents weren't my fault and how it had happened once to her before I was born, and she said if it ever happened again, that she would leave him. Why she let him to it to me, I don't know. It all sounds dramatic, I know, but I guess you don't have to be hit to have scars. I only recently started to forgive him and trust a little.

dcmhejbl62 (06/06/11 22:10:06)

I was spanked as a child, always by my mom, always with a hand or flyswatter, one or two swats at a time. I knew I was misbehaving when it happened, there was no screaming or calm discussion, and I don't remember it continuing past age 5 or 6.

I definitely don't feel it was abuse or that I was harmed by it, and I didn't know any families that didn't spank (but I'm probably older than most of you... We even had paddling at school). Like another poster said, I was definitely more harmed by verbal rants or days of silent treatment when I got older, especially considering what a "pleaser" personality I had.

I occasionally spanked my oldest kids when they were little, but not for long. It wasn't very effective, I hated doing it, and other things worked just as well. I never spanked the youngest, and wouldn't spank at all given the chance to parent the oldest again. There are better ways to teach and discipline.

WonderingInWA (06/06/11 22:34:41)

My Recent Posts

I haven't read all the responses here. But I was spanked up until I was probably 10. With a wooden ruler that had a metal edge to it. My mother did all the spanking, never my dad. And it was always something that was looming in the future, so if I did something wrong out in public the punishment was coming at some nebulous time later after we got home (where the wooden ruler was kept).

I can't even begin to think why anyone would think hitting a child into submission is a good idea. A switch, a wooden ruler, a wooden spoon, a belt. None of it makes sense to me. It's child abuse.

PBrooke (06/06/11 22:34:41)

I was "spanked" a few times, but it was always fully clothed, by my mother, and probably not much more than a pat, but it was the shock and humiliation of being punished that was upsetting, to my memory, not pain. Most of the time if I misbehaved I was simply placed in my room; when I was older, the spanking stopped altogether but I was grounded for mouthing off, lying, etc. The one time I remember the reason for the spanking was when I was in a department store with my mother and I decided to play in the clothing racks. She couldn't find me and was panicked.

While I was certainly not abused and probably barely touched at all, I'm not planning on using spanking with my children. My younger sibling managed to be raised and disciplined, without spanking, partly because of special needs, but to me that's proof that it can be done without spanking. And if it CAN be done, it should.

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Fuglymama.fhotd64476 (06/07/11 00:45:49)

My parents were basically fundies when I was young (they're not now. They left the church when I was still fairly young, around six I think). I was spanked, generally an open handed swat and always fully clothed. I remember three full on beatings. One for being exceptionally rude and defiant, one for a complete misunderstanding (my Dad thought I'd muttered something rude under my breath when he asked me to do something, even though I hadn't) and one because he thought I'd broken something when I hadn't touched it. Those three are indelibly printed on my memory.

My Mum tried once to do 'structured' spankings. She told me I had to hold the back of a chair while she hit me, then we'd talk about it and I'd apologise. I asked her if she thought I was insane. Why on earth would I just stand there while she hit me with a paddle, there was no way in hell that one was going down like she thought it would. She never brought it up again. My mother is a lovely woman. She was just struggling with having left the church, moving to another state and dealing with an extremely difficult child (me) who was later found to have been suffering from clinical depression from an extremely young age.

I have spanked my son a couple of times. Only because I simply didn't know what else to do. He's a lovely, intelligent, clever child with a will like iron. I only had to smack him a couple of times to realise it only made the situation ten times worse. He's only three, but he has very set ideas on what is and isn't fair. I've since found several completely non-violent methods that work wonders. I have often thought that he's extremely lucky he wasn't born into a fundy family. I hate to think what they would have to do to a child of his type in order to 'break' him.

Dinorah (06/07/11 00:45:57)

I got veryoccasionally spanked on the butt, and then slapped on the face when I was older, exclusively by my mother and always in anger, btw. While my mother felt justified in doing it, she says that now times have changed and spanking's no longer acceptable.

I live in Europe and am always surprised by the number of Americans, from not remotely fundie families, who got routinely spanked and especially got spanked with implements like spoons and belts, because that's abuse (I don't agree with spanking with your hand but if it's done occasionally I don't consider it abuse). Also I don't get why spanking is so much better when done "calmly", the image of a parent saying "you've been very naughty and so mommy/daddy has to spank you" is much more disturbing to me that swatting a kid's butt in a moment of frustration if the kid's done something really bad (not that I condone that either, it's just less disturbing).

ChickeyMonkey (06/07/11 01:22:08)

My youngest is like yours and I've often thought of how horrible it would be for him if he were born into a fundy family. It doesn't help that his language hasn't developed as fast as his motor skills have, so he can't express himself as well as other kids his age (he's 25 months). Smacking him doesn't work and makes me feel like a horrible excuse for a parent and person. Usually what he really needs is a nap, so I try to lay down with him (which could take a long time or not, depending on how stubborn he's going to be about laying down). I try to redirect and take his attention away from the bad behavior (throwing something because he's angry, or hitting), and that seems to work. Time outs aren't always effective because he gets up and does the same thing again. I guess that's where the repetition comes in (putting him back down against the wall to sit in time-out every time he gets up). I hope his behavior gets better as his language develops and he can better express himself.

I was occasionally spanked by my ex step dad. It was humiliating the one time I remember. The other time I remember being in my room and having to wait there as a time-out, I guess. He came back in and wanted me to give him a hug, like all was forgiven. I thought he was fucking nuts! You just spanked me and I'm supposed to act like everything is OK now? I was under 10 years old, maybe 7ish.

My ex step dad was just scary to me. I was also a people-pleasing kid and yelling at me was the worst thing in the world you could do to me (although, I guess spanking was actually the worst). I hated having people being angry or disappointed in me (and still do. I'm working on that). The best was the verbal abuse and I guess emotional abuse, although I'm not sure, so others who have more experience with emotional and verbal abuse: please correct me where I'm wrong.

Since I was the oldest, I had to watch my brother and sister whenever my mom and XSD went somewhere. My siblings, of course, never listened to me ("You're not the boss of me!" was common). My brother always got into trouble because that's just what he seemed to do. He'd get into things he wasn't supposed to, that kind of thing. Nothing malicious, just stupid, irritating, younger brother stuff. So one time my mom and XSD go out to a casino or something (we'd just moved to Las Vegas and lived out in the suburbs, which basically meant "desert" at that time since there wasn't a lot built up in the area except track homes). My siblings get into a fight/argument and I get in trouble when the parental units come home (although I don't remember my mom being there, for some reason. Maybe she just dropped XSD home and then went to do something else, I don't know) because I was supposed to be in charge and they didn't listen to me. When I told XSD, "They never listen to me!" he replies with, "Well what good are you then?!" That really hurt. I mean, I've grown up with this guy since I was 4 years old and he basically sees me as someone to watch my brother and sister when they're gone, and to wash the dishes when I come home from school (never mind that he'd been home all day and could've done them his own damn self).

I'm sorry, that was way too long.

Effie (06/07/11 03:15:09)

I was occasionally beaten... Once a box on the ear. One time forced to wash in cold water, while my step-demon forced the cold water on me while he held me fast against the bath-tube. Other times my step-demon lifted me and threw me on the floor. Once he just held me hard in the arm until it turned really red. The physical abuse didn't happen that many times, perhaps 5-7 times, but still I do remember it. It made me afraid. Especially cause my step-demon just had to tell me things like "if you don't listen I will hit you so hard you can't sit for a whole week".

Nevertheless I think that all kind of abuse is harmful for a child. I think the verbal abuse was the hardest part of my childhood. I had a low self-esteem and developed social phobia and depression (which is now part of my personality, it's like a melancholic personality according to my psychiatrist) and I isolated myself from people, which I still do. Even so I'm about to graduate from the social work school, and I'm supposed to work with people eventhough I'm a slightly bit scared of them. I'm on this forum because I'm procrastinating. I have the last part of my mini-thesis in social work to write, which is about verbal abuse... but I just can't get myself to do it. It brings me a lot of painful memories, and the feelings of feeling worthless is very present at the moment.

ChangeManagement (06/07/11 03:23:38)

I was spanked. Spanking never deterred me from re-doing the dirty deeds. Just taught me to be sneaky.

My mom would proudly proclaim how her mother spanked her and some times would would do a pre-emptive spank.

I decided the cycle woud stop with me. My kid is 21. I popped her on her diapered butt when she started playing with an electrical outlet. The look she gave me was heartbreaking - and the dog growled at me. Never again.

apple1 (06/07/11 04:46:08)

I would say that "calm" idea has been promoted because of rage-associated beatings of children in which children have sustained life-threatening, if not life-ending injuries. (I am NOT saying I believe in "calm" spankings, just commenting on where I think the idea may come from...)

And I WOULD say that on rare occasion, kids will do something that makes you as a parent, SO angry that you need to reach into your deepest psyche and avoid both doing AND saying something that you will deeply regret later. It just happens with kids.

booksnbeats (06/07/11 05:19:47)

My parents also took away privileges, but sometimes I would rather be hit...they took my books, took the door off my room (though modesty was supposedly important), took away and destroyed letters from my pen pals. They still claim to have been perfect parents and also criticize me for being an atheist, although I think the abuse is a lot of the reason. I remember praying and praying for them to like me. What I remember most are the insults and humiliation, though.

nuri (06/07/11 05:35:31)

I remember being spanked a couple of times, and threatened a couple more. Being extraordinary ADHD, sometimes the realization that what I was doing could have a physical impact was seriously the only way it got to me that what I was doing wasn't appropriate. But, let's put it this way: I wasn't spanked for convincing my twin autistic brother that walking on the roof was a great idea when were 4 or 5.

That being said, even threats stopped by the time I was about 9 or 10.

My older brother, however, has stories about frying pans and wooden spoons (and he recounts these stories fondly. He's proud of being that much of an instigator). I can't imagine my mom doing these things at all. None of us think we were abused, our parents are very loving. I have no intention of spanking my future kids, my husband wants to retain the very occasional use, and not threaten without follow-through.

failsafe (06/07/11 05:41:43)

I think it's pretty clear from this thread that there are a lot of of ways to hurt a child, be they physical, verbal, emotional, whatever. I think it's also pretty clear that if your parents love you and really are punishing you for YOU (as opposed to for them), mild spanking isn't going to leave lasting harm. But I also don't really believe it's necessary, and I think the only reason to inflict physical pain on someone is if it is absolutely necessary. And I think it's very easy to make some jumps - oh I'll only spank sometimes - oh his behavior is getting worse, I have to spank harder - oh it's even worse, I need to use an implement, and it just spirals. Better, IMO not to go down that route in the first place.

Spanking parents always present it as an all-or-nothing kind of choice:

EITHER you have well behaved kids and you spank

OR you have out of control monsters and you don't.

But I think this thread exemplifies that this is just not the case.

DistantStar (06/07/11 05:45:44)

I classify the use of objects as beatings, not spanking. To me, spanking is a swat or three with a hand on a clothed rear, nothing more extreme. I wasn't spanked much but it happened a few times, at least. No harm done. My parents were much more with the denial of privileges and stuff like that.

I think a lot of these arguments come down to the definition -- I think it's safe to say that there is a vast gulf between a few swats and being beaten with a belt. I am so sorry that happened to any FJers.

I don't see why it shouldn't be avoided, however. I am not saying do it. Only that I think the definition matters, because what some people call spankings the spankers should be arrested for. I think it's abuse of the word, as well as the child.

Last Edited By: DistantStar 06/07/11 05:49:28. Edited 1 times.

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Onora (06/07/11 06:04:19)

Yes, I was spanked...as well as having slapped, pushed, shoved, having my hair pulled, punched including holding me down while my mother, smirking all the while, put a foot on my stomach to hold me down on the floor so I could not get up and my stepfather punched the tops of my feet. Because I was "belligerent" and "Tried to dictate" when all I wanted was to be left alone. To this day I have nightmares. This continued until I completely moved out at 21. (I went to college but had no choice but to come back on breaks.)

The day I knew they hated me was when I had bruises on my face from my sf's slaps and my mother told me very detatchedly I must have caused that myself. Then they wonder why I don't allow my kids around them. Then they try to make quips about "you'll find out" like beating my kids is the last resort and I just look at them and say "do you really want to go there? I don't think so...."

Koala (06/07/11 06:08:06)

They should be in jail for what they did to you. I am so glad you don't allow them around your kids, and even more glad that you were strong enough to break the cycle.

darareaksmey (06/07/11 06:37:40)

My mom would spank us. I don't remember my dad ever doing it. Actually I don't remember my mom doing it too often. Her weapon of choice was screaming at us. I got enough of that to last me a lifetime. In retrospect, I probably would have done better to have been spanked rather than screamed at. That is, if she wasn't going to try positive reinforcement. I don't remember the spankings but I sure do remember the screaming. It's why my relationship with my mom today still sucks, and I am 51 and she's almost 87.

lawfulevil (06/07/11 06:39:48)

My parents did a lot of screwed up things to me but the one that makes me look weird the most often as an adult is that if I'm in the passenger seat (front) and the driver raises their hand, I throw my entire body back against the seatback/headrest as hard as I can because my mother always used "being in the way of the mirror" as an excuse to backhand me in the face. I can't help it, it's a reflex. It gets me some pretty strange looks.

fundiefan (06/07/11 06:42:04)

I was spanked as a child. Mom even used a belt at times. I can't say I am traumatized by it, though. That may be because later, my mom married an alcoholic and I was then abused. I totally see the difference and see that my mom was a very young, single girl unprepared for parenthood and mostly did what she knew, which was how she was raised. When the abuse started, every single thing about it was different from the spanking. Yes I know there was an emotional aspect to those differences, but they still existed. In truth, the fact that my mom silently watched and allowed the abuse by her husband is much more painful than the earlier times when she herself spanked me.

I don't have kids so I am not in the place to judge another or form and/or express deep opinions. I only know that I personally have lived a difference between spankings and abuse.

bananacat (06/07/11 07:08:32)

My mom slapped me a few times out of frustration. I was a generally well-behaved kids, except for her. I don't know why I was so whiny and uncooperative for her but such a goodie twoshoes at daycare and school, but I know that I frustrated her. I was really talkative and I have a voice that just carries far and grates on everyone's nerves, especially if I'm whiny. Anyway, there were a few times, especially in public places, that she got frustrated and would smack my face or butt. I usually hit her back. Of course, it didn't hurt her because I was so little, but it made her angry. Luckily she was the adult and she prevented the whole ordeal from escalating. I was a very stubborn kid and I would have kept hitting back until I physically couldn't. Even though she lost her temper sometimes, she was wise enough to realize that it wouldn't end well if she kept hitting me back. Still, I hope that if I have kids, they aren't as stubborn and annoying as I was.

The occasional spanking didn't ruin me, but it certainly didn't help me either. The most effective form of discipline was the mini-lecture. My mom constantly said "What if someone did that to you?" Even as a preschooler I could understand that I hurt other people if I actually stopped to think about it. I am a firm believer that most kids can understand empathy pretty soon after they learn to talk, as long as you explain it to them in the right way. I would always want my kids to do the right thing because they understand why it's right, and not just because they are afraid of the punishment for themselves.

nolongerIFBx (06/07/11 07:45:21)

I was spanked. Fully clothed and never with the hand. I don't resent the fact they spanked. Only once did I think it got taken too far. I knew and understood the consquences of my actions. They didn't spank when they were angry- sorry to those who don't agree with that. I wasn't spanked because they were frustrated because of a bad day at work. They were consistent. I didn't get punished after I had pushed the envelope too many times, the action got a consistent reaction the first time (and usually the last time) that it occured. I knew my parents loved me and were raising me the best way they knew how. It worked for me, and I received very few spankings (if any) after middle school.

snarkykitty (06/07/11 08:11:32)

My mom was swift with the hand and the verbal lashings. I can't even describe the spankings out of embarrassment. I remember getting a full-on spanking in front of about 20 family members - aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. The word "Humiliation" doesn't even touch how I felt.

At one point, I told her that I was too old for spankings, and she moved to slapping the thighs (we wore skirted uniforms to school which hid the red marks) and face. I had gone to school many times freshly slapped. I never remember once doing anything "bad" to deserve the spankings. We lived in constant fear of my mother. Not answering a question quickly enough or not having a "good attitude" was considered worthy of the spanking. And she always did it with that awful cigarette hanging out of her mouth and her hair in these terrible rollers.

Coughing too much (I have a genetic lung disease) was often subject to some punishment.

Mom's favorite lines were "you son of a bitchen' kids" and "you rotten spoiled brats". Considering we lived 6 people to a 4-room apartment, never had been read to, hugged or "tucked in" (my older sister used to tuck me in), had few toys and not much else for a long time, I can't see how we were spoiled. You ate what was cooked, did what you were told to do, and there were never any choices.

Going to church always killed me inside because people used to say "what good kids" we were. Living in abject fear will do that to you. She was such a hypocrite.

I once called the "child abuse hotline" because I saw an ad on television and she caught me. That was probably the worst experience.

I will never, ever forget the hatred my mother had for us. She continues to abuse verbally to this day, and had I not been a forgiving person and understanding that she is mentally ill person, I doubt I would have ever seen her again. I make my visits short and cheerful, enough to keep her from complaining that "she's the mother" and should be treated like a queen. No exaggeration, she really believes this. She believes that as the mother, she shouldn't have to call us, we are to call her. She demands gifts on every holiday, including Easter. Okay, I need to stop because now the feelings are flowing.

Last Edited By: snarkykitty 06/07/11 08:13:36. Edited 1 times.

Koala (06/07/11 08:16:13)

(big hugs) if you want them.

I truly admire those of you who are brave enough to recall your stories.

And to those who have stories and just aren't ready to share? I totally understand, and I am so sorry for what you went through.

dcmhejbl62 (06/07/11 08:17:27)

My mom wasnt angry when she spanked either, and I don't remember being angry the few times I did it. It really was done with the idea of teaching the child now, so they don't get hurt or in worse trouble on their own later.

I'm going to go out on a limb with my limited typing skills on the iPad and say I consider spanking a lower-class form of discipline. My parents came from poor backgrounds, as did their parents and grandparents, etc. Both parents in these families had to work hard, at a job or household chores, and access to birth control was limited so families were larger. They rarely left their own state and sometimes even town. They couldn't bring the world in through tv and movies and little time to read books, if they were even available.

They loved their kids,but didn't have a lot of time to spend raising them, so they prioritized their goals (obedience) and went for the quickest form of discipline with the loudest bang, so to speak.

I think when people have less immediate fear of extinction, and more exposure to the world and education, they quickly find better alternatives to spanking.

treemom (06/07/11 08:18:24)

I was spanked, but the other abuse wasn't usually related to discpline.

I was spanked frequently and into my teenage years. My father made the mistake of slapping me when they lived with us briefly (and I was an adult). I made it clear I didn't have to put up with violence in my life ever again.

dcmhejbl62 (06/07/11 08:26:31)

Good for you!!!

Spartan89 (06/07/11 08:35:38)

After thinking about it last night, I realized what truly disturbs me about spanking. Love and violence don't belong together. I think it's harmful to teach a child that it's okay for people who love you to hit you for your own good. I have family members who are hit by their spouses, and it's heartbreaking to hear them justify it. "I made him so mad" or "he does love me, that's why he got so worked up" are excuses that I've heard. I'm not saying that spanking will always cause mental harm that drastic, but isn't it not that far of a connection to make? Many parents who spank their kids love them tremendously, and the kids are aware of that. So how different is it really to have a partner, who claims to love you, hit you in the heat of an argument? Nobody should ever tolerate an abusive relationship, so that's why I think it's particularly damaging to confuse children about the relationship of love and violence.

snarkykitty (06/07/11 08:36:22)

It's so interesting to me that so many of us here have experienced varying levels of abuse, yet we have been able to channel our feelings into doing something positive here. Yes, this site may be for snarking, but it's out of concern for our fellow human beings and the countless women and children who are living not only in submission, but fear. I'm not one for patting myself on the back, but I think that we can be proud of our abilities to try to effect change in areas where we ourselves have been victimized. My heart and my prayers (or positive vibes if you do not believe in prayer or a higher power) to all of you. This place is a refuge of sorts and even if I don't post too frequently, I am proud to be a member here.

magadociousrex (06/07/11 09:23:17)

I was swatted as a kid. Never a spanking spanking, but when I'd mouth off, i'd get swatted.

I'm not perpetuating it with my own kid. I have a terrible temper, but I've come to realize that its utterly counter productive in your aim of getting the kid to do what you want.

My MIL though has threatened to call DCFS if I ever dare to lay a finger on my child even just a swat. Spanking (not that i'd do it)with a bare hand IS legal in my state, but I'd not put it past her. DCFS in my state as well, is like, Orwellian- if there's even a HINT of what they view as abuse (not the law, but what some jacked up case reporter thinks) the kids get taken away, without question and DCFS will harass the family and call the parent's jobs in attempts to get them fired, and yet when my mother, a required reporter through her job makes reports on kids who are being say, sexually abused, nothing gets done. Its disgusting.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 09:36:59)

I was spanked occasionally by both parents. Nothing too humiliating or painful. I'm not a fan of the turn the child over the knee and administer 10+ hits method, but see no problem with giving my own kids the odd whack across the butt now and then.

I've never understood the "if it's not okay for an adult, it's not okay for a child" defense. Lots of things are okay for adults but not for children. That's just the way it is.

Also, "hitting is wrong". No, it's not. It depends on the context.

Where I live it's possible to anonymously denunciate a parent or individual to our version of CPS. I think that's bullshit.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 09:39:26)

Pretty sure BSDM (BDSM? BMDS? what the hell is that acronym) fans would disagree with you there.

Want More Babies (06/07/11 09:41:32)

Oh yes, I was spanked. Normally it was with a hand, wet wash cloth, or wire fly swatter. We would be spanked for anything that my parents deemed *disobedient*. Talking back could land you a slap across the face. I try not to think of my childhood in fundie land.

I DO NOT spank my children and will not allow ANYONE else to do so either. Grandparents have been warned: I will call the cops and they will NEVER see their grandchildren again if I ever catch them laying a hand on them (and children are NEVER alone with grandparents). Either side. My husband was spanked too, and we refuse to parent that way.

cassandra (06/07/11 09:44:39)

My ideas of spanking are SO different from the punishment that's been brought up in this thread.

The idea of more than a rare swat on a clothed bottom is really foreign to me. In my opinion anything that occurs so frequently, throughout adolescence, and involves being hit with an instrument, or being hit somewhere that's not on the bottom isn't spanking, its abuse.

I cannot imagine being slapped by a member of my family, or slapping someone I loved.

failsafe (06/07/11 09:50:02)

Pretty sure BSDM (BDSM? BMDS? what the hell is that acronym) fans would disagree with you there.

Bondage and discipline, domination and submission, sadism and masochism. But I think proponents of BDSM, especially, who see and can appreciate domination, submission pain and humiliation as inherently tied to sexuality, would certainly agree that parental love and violence don't belong together. I know no one in the kink world who thinks its appropriate to spank a child or anyone who cannot consent, sexually or nonsexually, actually. And it would worry me seriously, if I did.

[treemom]

treemom (06/07/11 09:53:33)

See, I think it is always wrong.

Why is an anon report to CPS bullshit?

nolongerIFBx (06/07/11 09:54:39)

I agree! Spanking IMO is punishment but slapping someone is abuse (again, IMO). Occasional spanking or slapping is not discipline, it's a loss of control (again, IMO). I hurt for so many who have suffered abuse in the name of discipline. It does open my eyes to why so many are against spanking--the abuse they experienced is nothing like what I would term spanking.

slickcat79 (06/07/11 10:04:57)

I don't know how you can hit another person without being angry. I mena really, "I'm not angry but I'm going to hit you." What kind of crap is that?

Agreed. I think the idea of "spanking without anger" is even more disturbing. If a person is genuinely calm, and they have the idea that taking a child into a room and hitting them repeatedly is a rational (even desirable) course of action, they have some serious issues.

I remember being spanked by my mother a couple of times when I was 7-8 years old. It probably happened more when I was young, but I don't remember it. It was always fully clothed, with none of the verbal/emotional abuse or humiliation that others had to deal with. I was never spanked by my father that I remember; I was scared enough by his yelling and quick temper. Both my parents grew up in poor(ish) southern families, and I know they were hit with switches, belts, etc.

I'm kind of torn on the idea of spanking. I'm inclined to say that I wouldn't do that to my (potential) children, but then again I don't feel abused by the handful of times it happened to me. Of course, it's very likely that I will never have kids, so I may never have to make that choice for myself.

treemom (06/07/11 10:06:45)

I don't think spanking is abuse, but that doesn't make it the best parenting tactic either.

I can think people shouldn't do it without demonizing them because they do.

fundiefan (06/07/11 10:06:49)

I agree. That is why I said I was spanked AND I was abused, but it was not one in the same. Whatever choices my mom made to spank me, I did not grow up thinking she hated me or was abusing me. Not having children of my own I've not fully explored spanking. But, I do know, whether I am a mother or not, that abuse is wrong. And I most definitely see a difference. While I don't know what I think about spanking as a whole, I don't always see it as abuse. But, I also define a spanking as one single open handed swat on the bottom and nothing else. And I also think if you repeatedly spank for the same 'offense' you are accomplishing nothing and to repeat it is just stupid.

The abuse I endured in my later childhood years was not even in the same universe as the spankings I was given. Maybe I am more tolerant / accepting of the spankings because of the later blatant abuse. That's something a therapist would probably have to spend years trying to figure out.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 10:46:43)

Ya, I know. I was just trying to illustrate that it's pretty relative when we say _____ and ______ don't belong together. It's not universal. The childrearing practices of one culture may be abhorrent to another. (In my husband's country there is a proverb: “when you hate your children, give them a rice cake, when you love them, give them a spanking with a wooden rod.â€) I'm not saying that's right, but I am saying that the notion of disciplining a child without ever physically imposing on his person is a fairly new concept.

There is some interesting reading (relating to American-style ideas of discipline/spanking countered with another culture) here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850109/

Be warned, there are some WUT?s in there, like this one:

A mother explained: Spanking with my hand is something I use according to my emotions. But, spanking with a wooden rod is something I do when I decide to spank the child. While I look for a wooden rod, I take time to cool myself down from the thoughts that go through my head.

MaryQ (06/07/11 10:53:31)

Hi, I'm a long time lurker. My sister and I were spanked as a child by my mother. She had a really bad temper and would use anything she could get her hands on, my father never laid a hand on any of us. My mother was raised in a pretty violent family and everyone was hit at one time or another by her father. She even remembers a fist fight in the street after my grandfather beat my grandmother and one of my uncles was ready to kill him (seriously).

My dad was abused and beaten by his bastard of a father so he decided not to do that with his own children - I mean, who pulls a gun on their child and threatens to blow them away??? Needlesss to say, we had no relationship with my grandfather.

[treemom]

failsafe (06/07/11 10:54:07)

'm not saying that's right, but I am saying that the notion of disciplining a child without ever physically imposing on his person is a fairly new concept.

That's fair, but I would argue that bodily autonomy in general is actually a fairly new concept for anyone other than Western rich men.

fundiefan (06/07/11 11:15:52)

That is a real scenario. Children live what they know. The cycle of abuse exists as a term and concept because it is a real thing. Sometimes, like your father, someone is able to stop the cycle and decide consciously not to be like their parent. Often, though, that isn't the case. My family is a text book example of cycles of generational abuse being repeated, in many ways. Girls marrying men just like their fathers and the boys turning to the same things their fathers did (addiction and violence) even though it hurt them and caused their lives to be living horrors. I took it outside the box and as a woman, I married a man who is exactly like my mother - an emotional hurricane. My sister's current husband is also just like my mom and my ex husband, in that he is emotionally controlling, manipulative and abusive. But, my sister doesn't see it that way because they don't hit their kids and to her, that is breaking the cycle. It is a step, but the cycle hasn't truly been broken.

Not everyone sees physical discipline as abuse because they can't. That is not to excuse it, just to explain it maybe? Turning it entirely around, people with no abusive experiences whatsoever may have no real ability to see a spanking or a slap AS abuse because they just have no idea.

It was chance that I don't have kids, but believe me, I've not failed to acknowledge my possible miserable failure at it and have often been grateful for how my life played out. I never had to figure it out at the expense of my child. I did break the cycle - at least as far as not passing it on to another generation. I don't think I would have been a good parent because I had no good parenting role models or experience. Maybe I could have been better at it and broken the cycle, but there is and always will be a part of me that is grateful that I never had to try and fail at the expense of a child.

Hane.engrishmessageb... (06/07/11 11:28:51)

Word. When you've been brought up with belts and wooden spoons, getting your face slapped, having your head slammed into a wall, having soap and hot pepper shoved into your mouth, and being ridiculed when you cry, you tend to see a child getting a slap on the butt as "no big deal.". And then you have to TELL yourself that it IS a big deal, and WRONG.

I did give my child a swat or two on the covered bottom a few times when she was very young. She says she has absolutely no recollection of it--thank God! I also thank God I figured out that hitting was wrong, and I stopped.

As an adult, I confronted my mother about a particularly harrowing beating she gave me, and she sobbed hysterically and swore she never did any such thing. She got even more hysterical when I told her I'd always been afraid of her as a child. Because it was all about her.

Doc Sharon4321 (06/07/11 11:30:40)

There is some interesting reading (relating to American-style ideas of discipline/spanking countered with another culture) here:

The cultural norms for disciplining children vary widely. I work in a city with a large population of Somalian refugees who are being resettled. There was a major to-do here when a neighbor called Social Services after seeing burns on a child's legs. Turns out his Somalian mother was heating a fork over the burners on the stove and pressing the hot fork onto his legs to punish him. The child was about 4 years old. When social services investigated, they discovered that burning kids with heated metal objects was common practice amongst Somalians. Obviously, this is would be appalling to American parents.

There were also multiple reports to the police and social services about young children, toddlers even, wandering the neighborhoods at all hours with no adults in sight. Turns out, 'it takes a village' is not just a phrase back in Somalia, kids roam free in the village as soon as they can walk. It is expected that older kids and other adults will keep an eye on them and keep them safe; even feed them or discipline them if needed. The social workers managing the cases of the Somalians for the charity supporting them designed a special class for newly immigrated parents telling them that in the US it is not ok to burn your kids for punishment and that, in the city, it is expected that a parent would be with a preschooler at all times outside the home.

The hospital where I work even came up with a notebook full of cultural info on Somalis and their practices when it comes to childbirth, breastfeeding and child rearing to help the nursing staff understand what the parents expected to happen and to allow them to educate the parents as to issues that could present a problem here in the US.

BTW, I'm 50 something, my parents spanked all 6 of us on occasion, though it was usually my mom. Mostly on the bottom, always fully clothed, but, most of the time, she used a spatula or a small board called a 'fanny whacker' that came from a novelty store like Spencer Gifts. I don't recall any childhood friends who weren't spanked for punishment as little kids. Only two of my siblings have had kids. One never spanked her kids except perhaps a single swat to the bottom to a toddler who dashed into the street or did something equally dangerous. The other spanked her kids or at least her husband did. The rest of the family, even my parents, felt he was too harsh with them. ETA: all the kids are now mid teens to adulthood, so it's been a while since any have been spanked.

Last Edited By: Doc Sharon4321 06/07/11 11:35:00. Edited 2 times.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 11:38:35)

Complete lack of accountability?

Again, I'm not American, and perhaps your CPS even varies from state to state--but here it means that your kids can get taken away from you on the basis of a spurious anonymous denunciation.

I've seen it happen.

robertposteschild (06/07/11 11:50:07)

Uh, where are kids taken away just on the strength of an anon report? Isn't there a step in between there?

I'm with treemom, I don't see spanking as inherently abusive but it's not the hallmark of great parenting IMO.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 11:54:07)

To quote Princess Bride: You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?

treemom (06/07/11 11:56:17)

It does vary state by state but in order to remove children in most states there has to be a really, really clear reason, and then to keep them for more than just an emergency removal it takes a judge typically as well.

Do children get removed sometimes when there isn't abuse? Yes. Often it happens following the accidental death of a child, during the investigation. But that is one of the sad aspects of losing a child in an accident, sometimes CPS moves in to protect the other children until it is clear you didn't say, throw your infant on the floor instead of have the improperly placed bouncy seat fall off a tale.

But by far, CPS DOESNT remove children. They provide counseling, classes, access to resources.

I have no idea where you are, but being able to report anonymously is not a bad thing. I mean what if you see something but don't actually know the people?

booksnbeats (06/07/11 12:06:56)

So true. Sometimes (when I'm in a bad mental place) it can be hard for me to take on my Domme role because I feel like I am also taking on the qualities of my abusive parents. It's all about consent, consent, consent.

Effie (06/07/11 15:35:34)

I'm not sure if I would consider it a new concept since spanking has been illegal in my country for 32 years by now... It bothers me a lot that other countries are so behind on that typical aspect. I would say that spanking is a very outdated method. I do think people should know better by now than to inflict physical harm on their child. What good is there to it? I mean - really? I can't see it.

chemist1217 (06/07/11 16:02:50)

I find these stories very interesting, because I too, was spanked as a child. My mother used spanking as discipline, but it was very rarely in anger. I remember being swatted across the butt for disobeying her on multiple occasions, but it was never more than a swat and was always followed by a long explanation of how I had done wrong and how to avoid it in the future. The only time she ever hit me in anger was the last time she ever spanked me. I remember her hand left a huge red welt on my bottom. She saw it, and pulled me onto her lap, hugged me, sat there and cried with me. She then apologized for ever spanking me and never did again. I have never held this against her, and I love my mother more than anyone on this earth. She is a wonderful woman and a fabulous role model.

My father, on the other hand, was an angry angry man who drank himself stupid and beat on his children. He hit out of anger, spite, boredom. You name it, he used it as an excuse to abuse me. I no longer speak to him, and I don't consider him to be either a father or a true man. He is a monster

That being said, I think my opinions on spanking are very varied given my experiences. In a way, I see spanking as a disciplinary method to be used in absolutely last resort, and should always be used with loooooong explanations and lectures. On the other hand, I remember being smacked around by my father and from that vantage point, I see spanking as abuse and way for adults to make themselves feel better by breaking down a poor child.

Will I spank my children? I honestly don't know. I think time will tell. I certainly not become my father, and if anything, will probably run from physical punishment of any kind. I have a hard time reconciling my past with what my future will become, but I do understand the diverse opinions on his thread- its one of the most polarizing discussions you can have relating to parenting.

xtreemom (06/07/11 16:04:45)

I think we managed to have a pretty civil Discussion about it.

Freyacat (06/07/11 16:05:03)

Adults get lots of privileges that children' aren't responsible enough yet to handle. Adults have the privileges, for example, of drinking a glass of wine or of voting. Adults can drive a car, or see an adult-themed movie. All of those are special things that adults get to do when they are (hopefully) old enough to handle them. I don't see the spanking issue as even comparable to those. It is not a special privilege or treat for someone to not get hit and abused. It is every human's born RIGHT to not be assaulted. It is a right that is frequently violated - lots of adults and children are hit. But that doesn't make it ever okay.

ChunkyBarbie (06/07/11 16:10:49)

I was spanked, hit, slapped, kicked, mocked, screamed at, etc. by my father. My mother never did any of those things. Yet, I always minded her. Abuse doesn't produce respect. Btw, my father never abused me when my mother was home and i never told her until I was 19. As A child I didn't want her to feel bad.

snarkykitty (06/07/11 16:18:56)

Anonymous reporting saves lives. The process is in place so that people can let the authorities know without fear of reprisal from the perpetrator(s).

My sister is a social worker, and has dedicated her life to helping children. They don't investigate unless there is enough information. If there is not sufficient evidence, investigations end at the initial home visit. The system isn't perfect, but I can say with surety that the number of children helped and saved tremendously outweighs the small percentage of false reports.

keeperrox (06/07/11 17:18:56

Thirty-two years is still incredibly recent history, thus making it a fairly new concept.

Austin (06/07/11 17:21:35)

Your last sentence just broke my heart.

failsafe (06/07/11 17:36:48)

Thirty-two years is still incredibly recent history, thus making it a fairly new concept.

Like I said, it's a fairly new concept that ANYONE has rights and control over their own bodies. Not long ago, in the scope of human history, it was not only legal but encouraged to physically harm your slaves, or your wife.

I think people are reluctant to define spanking as abuse because they see abuse as a fundamentally different thing, something that leaves lasting harm. For many people, it would mean painting their own parents as abusers which (if you didn't suffer serious abuse, obviously) seems fundamentally wrong. For still others, it means painting themselves as abusers.

But I still don't think that there is any situation where there is no way whatsoever to parent without physical harm. I view it as akin to taking a kid to the doctor, where the doctor has a vaccination to give the kid. The child NEEDS to get the shot, and the shot HAS to hurt. There is no other option but to harm the child, for his/her eventual benefit. But if there were an option for a painless shot, I suspect many parents would choose that instead - because why cause your child pain if there is an alternative?

Similarly, people argue, your child needs to grow into a productive individual, and one way to accomplish that is spanking. However, it isn't the only way. So why go down that route at all?

magadociousrex (06/07/11 17:45:48)

As have I. And then CPS is horrible to the parents assuming guilty until proven innocent.

treemom (06/07/11 17:53:16)

So they removed the children before an investigation? In the us or somewhere else?

Crackedeggs (06/07/11 17:56:40)

Spanked once as a child. However, when I got to be a teen, it got ugly. Mom slapped my face, twisted my arms behind my back ( she was a tiny thing, and I'm 6'.. but she could master me every time... dad got mad enough to chase me down on several occasions, but I could always outrun him. I can remember him holding my arms in a lock when I was trying to run to a boyfriend who they had ordered off the property.

Then again, I was a total pain in the ass, rebellious, drug abusing rocker chick who, to parents one generation out of conservative Mennonite hood, must have seen like Satan incarnate to them.

[treemom]

mirele (06/07/11 17:57:15)

Same here. My mom switched to a metal mesh flyswatter after she broke a blood vessel in her hand beating one of us. I became an accomplished liar. My mom once looked at me and said, "I know you're lying but I can't PROVE it..." hence, no spanking.

The spankings stopped for all us kids when I hit puberty, but that may have been a combination of: my mother's encroaching schizophrenia, my size (I'm 4 inches taller than her) and the fact that one time she started yelling at me at the dinner table and I flipped a half eaten corn cob into her face. That startled her.

My dad never hit any of us kids.

caxpax (06/07/11 17:58:02)

I was never spanked. I was slapped once, and immediately afterwards my mom apologized and cried and asked my forgiveness. She was beaten regularly as a kid and had vowed never to do that to her kids. My dad threatened to spank me once when I was around 5 (for being mouthy and tormenting my brother), and I was so scared I wet my pants- when he saw that he felt terrible and calmed down. He also was beaten as a kid and never wanted to parent that way. My parents spanked (probably 2-3 smacks, on a clothed behind) my brother twice, once for playing in traffic, the other time for punching me in the nose. I think they felt those were justified and there was actually discipline going on as opposed to just reacting in anger. I don't want to ever use physical discipline with my kids. There are so many other, better ways to guide your kids....if I have to resort to hitting my kids I'd reconsider whether or not I was qualified to raise them. My biggest concern is I might smack my kid while really angry- I can be short tempered. But so far I've managed to handle some hard-core tantrums without losing my cool so my hope is that can continue.

For all the experienced parents here- any great parenting books you can recommend that deal with these issues?

Austin (06/07/11 18:00:43)

CPS can't win. If they intervene, people jump up and down and carry on. If a child is seriously harmed or killed by being left or reunited with an abusive parent, then people jump up and down and carry on. Either way, it's the fault of CPS.

Personally, I'd rather they erred on the side of caution for the child.

treemom (06/07/11 18:00:45)

Caxpax, I like Elizabeth pantleys books. Especially kid cooperation.

bb (06/07/11 18:15:56)

My dad told me that he spanked me once and I got so upset that he felt bad and never spanked me again. I must have been fairly young because I have no memory of this. I was (and still am to some extent) very sensitive and think that repeated spankings would have been traumatic for me. I'm thankful that my dad was sensitive enough to see that. You know, it seems strange to use the word sensitive to describe my dad, but underneath his gruff exterior was a good heart. (I miss him)

Crackedeggs (06/07/11 18:22:36)

My dad, now.. there's a story. His father, to teach him to stay away from the stove, burned his hand on it. This was in the 1920s. It was a flat topped wood or coal burning stove.

ChunkyBarbie (06/07/11 18:30:48)

@Austin Thanks. Luckily, he left when I was ten.

magadociousrex (06/07/11 19:20:29)

Here in the US. And yes. And I can't say anymore because the crap is still ongoing.

Patsy (06/07/11 19:26:54)

I've seen a similar argument to LilMissMetaphor's used before, that also addresses your response to it. It goes something like this: ' "You'd be outraged if you did something your husband didn't like, and he responded by hitting you." "Sure, but I'd also be outraged if I did something he didn't like, and he responded by putting me in time-out." ' It's also not a special privilege or treat for someone to not have their freedom to move restricted in those ways.

I'm not saying there is or isn't a distinction between smacks and time-outs, just that I don't see the distinction.

(Personal opinion time: neither is the worst or best thing in the world, neither is something I'd want to use unless I felt I had to.)

failsafe (06/07/11 19:30:19)

I wasn't removed but my mom was subject to some serious review by CPS in what I think was a combination of racism and misunderstanding. My parents were upper middle class (mom was on Wall Street, at that point, and dad was an engineer) and when I was about a year old, my mom was baking and let me eat some cookie batter. I got sal monella and was taken to the pediatrician, treated, etc. My mom happened to mention to a neighbor that I had gotten it. The neighbor called CPS, saying that it was pretty obvious that I was living in squalor, in conditions unfit for a child. At that time, we were the only nonwhite family in the town, but while my mother hasn't LOVED housekeeping, we have certainly never lived in conditions where the spread of disease is a major concern. I think they had a weekly cleaning service during that time, actually.

CPS came out and basically spoke to my mother as if she didn't understand English (she had been in the US for 15 years at that point, had two Ivy degrees, etc). After about two months of investigation, they required that my mom take parenting classes and they communicated this to her via translator, even though she's been speaking English since she started kindergarten and spoke English with them each time they visited.

But I have to say, hearing the whole situation relayed now, it is sort of absurd, especially if you know my mom.

bookwormalmostfundie (06/07/11 19:40:41)

Every time this subject comes up here I'm horrified by all the things people have gone through... big hugs to all of you.

I was spanked, but it mostly stopped by the time I was 6 or 7. I don't really remember specific spankings, but I do remember that the humiliation of it was what tended to be worst for me. I also remember vividly being grumpy that they had spanked me and making up my mind to do whatever bad thing it was at least one more time and get away with it, so while it may have curbed my behavior outwardly it was not really good for my attitude. When I was quite small my mom admits to spanking me abusively (stressed out, ignorant of how to handle me) and she is very sorry about it and has apologized many times. I grew up hearing that I was a very rebellious kid and thinking that the spanking is probably what helped me straighten out and become a "good" kid by the time I was school age - nowadays I look back and think, yes, I was a determined kid, but I really was not that bad and I am actually a people pleaser in a lot of ways. It's been odd to change such a deeply rooted perception of myself.

This board and the periodic discussions of spanking have gradually made me reconsider spanking to the point that I no longer plan on using it when I have kids. I've done a lot of research and watched Supernanny (awesome show) and the more I watch my friends' kids, the less I can see any occasions that I think are best served by spanking. I won't say I'll never do it, because I suppose if a child did something like tie another child on some train tracks, I might definitely consider that serious enough for a spanking - but I doubt I'll have to deal with that. I am almost 12 years older than my littlest brother and when he was a toddler I was allowed to spank him if my mother was not around, so I did spank him several times. A few months ago as I was talking about my changed views I apologized to him for that and he said he could not remember it, so I was like "Phew!"

treemom (06/07/11 19:41:09)

They didn't talk to the parents? Or the kids? They simply walked in and grabbed the kids?

[treemom]

Austin (06/07/11 19:52:11)

That's wonderful. The time to make the decision is before you have kids (I strongly believe) so I'm really glad you're thinking about this now. There are times in the midst of it (parenting) when you do get really angry with your kids and if you haven't purposed (using a fundie word as a verb here!) to use a non-violent strategy, you are much more likely to not act in frustration.

LilMissMetaphor (06/07/11 20:23:03)

Yes, just as shooting the shit out of a street in Afghanistan tremendously outweighs the small percentage of innocents who get killed, I'm so sure... Eyes It's just, you know, kinda sucky for the small percentage, right? Oh well.

My point being....a broad-spectrum antibiotic may be easy for the doctor to prescribe but it ain't always the best solution.

LilMissMetaphor

The problem is, they don't. The stats on the numbers of children who die in CPS custody, or who are abused/neglected by CPS workers are pretty shocking. Or are we supposed to not talk about that while we're busy thinking of the greater good?

Jencendiary (06/07/11 21:13:14)

Go grind your axe elsewhere? Quietly? I've got shavings in my popcorn.

Spartan89 (06/07/11 21:27:57)

Haha, +1

ladypuglover (06/07/11 21:31:52)

I was beaten as a child not spanked. Sometimes it would take months for the bruises to fade. Belts, hair brushes, cow whips, cattle shock sticks, punched, slapped, buckets of water thrown in face, you name it. For that reason is why I can't spank my kids. Yes, I did a few times for running out in the street or other dangerous activity but I couldn't even do that for long. When I get mad at my kids I get real quiet and send them to their rooms and talk/deal with them when I calm down after a few minutes. I prefer the non-beating method.

Fuglymama.fhotd64476 (06/07/11 23:27:58)

I agree that there is a difference between spanking and abuse. I also agree that I view spanking as a swat to a (clothed) backside. This I don't consider abuse. I don't do it myself because, as I've already stated, it simply doesn't work on my child. There are also other methods out there that work just as well. For the person who asked about books, I use the 123 Magic! method. It is magic! Setting the ground work takes time and to start with you feel it's never going to work. Then one day you're in the supermarket, your little darling is rolling on the floor screaming and you raise one finger and say calmly, "That's one," and instantly he stops.

Beating with a belt until you can't sit down is abuse. As is knocking a ten year old to the floor and kicking him because he gave his cousin a chinese burn. Picking your child up by the ankle and hitting him around the head is abuse. All of this and more happened to my fiance, the father of my child. He thinks it was all fairly normal and even laughs about the chinese burn incident. He would never do it to his son though. In fact when our son was being particularly naughty one day, he told me to get a wooden spoon and 'tan his bum.' I handed him the spoon and told him to do it (knowing full well he never would) and he couldn't go through with it. He's well and truly broken the cycle.

leenie (06/08/11 00:56:59)

spanked allllllllllllll the time

Where are these statistics, out of curiosity?

The Children's Bureau of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services publishes an annual report with statistics on child maltreatment; these statistics come from data provided by state agencies. According to the latest available report, an estimated 1,770 children died in 2009 from abuse and neglect. Figure 4-3 (page 56) shows the relationship of the perpetrators to the children. Parents were involved in 75.8% of the deaths, and relatives or parent partners were involved in 7.1% -- a total of 82.9%.

If you look at the remaining categories of perpetrators, you'll see that several, like friends and neighbors, have nothing to do with CPS. Even if you somehow hold CPS responsible for every foster parent, legal guardian, and professional responsible for a child's death, CPS is still responsible for only 0.8% of all deaths in 2009. The miscellaneous categories ("more than one non-parental perpetrator," "unknown," and "other") do account for 12.9% of the child deaths, but it strains credulity to think that CPS was involved in all of those cases as well.

In other words, I'm simply not seeing the "pretty shocking" figures you're describing.

(Edited a few times for minor word changes)

Soldevi (06/08/11 03:47:11)

I was birched a few times during my childhood. I don't have my own children (hopefully one day) but I am very against birching and spanking. I am very close to my parents and I understand their actions in some level even though I will not tolerate it myself. At all. I don't remember that my mother birched us, my father gave one or two strikes per time. I once asked my granny (father's side) if she birched too and she said they never birched and that she doesn't understand why her sons birched their children. We weren't birched regularly, only a very few times. It doesn't matter, even one time is too much but I have friends who got birched weekly. And my aunt washed her son's mouth with soap every time he said something my aunt didn't approve :/

I remember one time when I had to go out and to the nearest birch tree and cut some twigs by myself. I can't remember if I was birched then too, but it was scary to go and get something that (probably) will be used on you. Sometimes we had twigs hanging in the wall and we were threatened to get birched. I worked, we were scared...

OT: I use birch twigs in the sauna and struck my back with them. Nope. I am not a masochist It is very old tradition and very relaxing one. Twigs have leaves on and it feels soft against skin even if some power is used. It feels so good to get blood circulating and they smell nice in sauna.

treemom (06/08/11 05:33:59)

point me to them baby.

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 07:51:19)

Perhaps you had better google them yourself; I don't want to make anyone's popcorn any crunchier.

I do apologize for somewhat derailing the thread, which is about discipline (I think). Questioning the actions of an agency that has little accountability combined with far too much leeway is not really grinding axes, in my book; it's refusing to accept the idea that "CPS removes children from abusive situations so CPS always = good."

chengdu (06/08/11 07:59:10)

I love 123 Magic and it has worked like a charm on my kids! It is funny how you can just hold up a finger and your child shapes up. My youngest sometimes requires two fingers but it still works eventually. . . And the author is right, by the time they reach 12 or so, you don't need it anymore.

treemom (06/08/11 08:07:00)

I don't really care to. You made the assertion, I didn't make any comment about popcorn or ax grinding. I expect you to deliver.

No one says CPS is always good. Nothing, nothing is ALWAYS good.

robertposteschild (06/08/11 08:07:31)

LilMissMetaphor wrote:

Perhaps you had better google them yourself; I don't want to make anyone's popcorn any crunchier.

I do apologize for somewhat derailing the thread, which is about discipline (I think). Questioning the actions of an agency that has little accountability combined with far too much leeway is not really grinding axes, in my book; it's refusing to accept the idea that "CPS removes children from abusive situations so CPS always = good."

Oh, good one, LilMiss! I have SHOCKING PROOF of my assertion, but I can't be bothered to produce it.

I give you 10 pts for the sheer cheekiness of the move, but degree of difficulty is only 2, so your overall score is only 6.0 I'm afraid.

[treemom]

treemom (06/08/11 08:10:31)

I know other people who loved 123 Magic as well.

I think it is important to note not all children respond to the same discipline well. The 123 magic concept was a flop in our house. We were remarkably consistent with it...but it ALWAYS led to one more chance, one more second, etc. Instead? We have operated on a pretty consistent immediate discipline. No warnings, no counting, no begging.

It sucks and it is harsh...but it quashed the endless whining. (these days not a peep of just one more...happens)

failsafe (06/08/11 08:23:22)

LilMissMetaphor

I have googled it, because I was curious. I found statistics with no sources from several sites which appeared to be extremely biased - like this http://theruggedindividua..._the_Business_Side.html. However, without the sources for those stats, they seem suspect. I promise I won't pop your corn, or whatever - I am really honestly interested to know about these statistics. It does stand to reason that CPS has a motive to remove children from families due to financial incentives - I remember the hoopla a few years ago when an LA CPS director flat out said that up to 50% of their child removals weren't necessary, and the ensuing outrage. But I would like to see some hard statistics on this, if you can point me to some.

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 08:34:24)

What, are you JimBob? I already have. Twice. No more. Epidurals are my friend.

treemom (06/08/11 08:40:38)

Eh. I have no idea what I meant there. I am at home today and my kid was asking me questions about lunch while I was clearly typing very important things on the internet. I think the expect you to deliver sounds pretty bitchy myself. So I am sorry, bad case of typing and not paying close attention.

But, as far as the statistics...in general I don't try to prove the assertions others put forth. If you want to show them to us, well then do it. If you don't, well don't say you could show them to us!

emmiedahl (06/08/11 08:44:31)

In my personal experience, CPS is overloaded and social workers have to balance the need to remove a child with the possibility that there is nowhere to place them. They also like to close cases, even if it means returning children to questionable parents. My personal experience: I worked as a coordinator for a FKCE program, putting on the classes that foster parents and CPS social workers need to take in order to keep their license. I talked to them every day for more than a year. And, my unmedicated bipolar brother and his wife had their children removed for a little while. They were almost put up for adoption (I would have been the adoptive parent) because the parents refused to make the required changes, but their social worker had a heart attack, and the new guy just wanted to close the case. He had some sort of departmental record for successfully closing cases/ rehabilitating parents, and had received awards for his parent-friendly policies. So the bar was lowered and the kids went back to a nightmare, one that continues to this day despite my family regularly making reports to CPS.

We have been basically told that the only way they would remove the children again is if there is proof of extreme abuse--rape, parent-inflicted burns and cuts, etc. The fact that the older child has missed over half of the school days this year and the younger ones are constantly injured in accidents that would have been prevented with even substandard parenting is irrelevant. If the mom wants to sleep in every morning while the older one watches HBO, the 3 yr old bicycles in a busy street, and the 2 yo screams in her crib until noon, that is just bad parenting but not CPS-actionable. They also chain-smoke in the house and all three kids have severe asthma that routinely requires hospital care.

The kids were returned to a camping trailer illegally parked in a vacant lot with two busy cross streets. My brother and sister-in-law skipped all the mandatory classes and refused to get stabilized with the mental health services they were offered. In a courtroom for a CPS case, the only people allowed to talk are the social worker and the lawyer assigned to the parents. Judges have a caseload that leaves them with 3-4 minutes for each case, so they rule according to what the social worker recommends. If the social worker says, I think the parents are fine, then that's what happens.

I'm sure there are abuses. In fact, I am certain of it. This is a system that needs more funding and more training for the employees. We need to make the welfare of the children the number one cause and not the parent's rights. This should not stop anyone from making reports. It is literally the least you can do for an abused child. They might have a one in ten chance of being abused in foster care, but they have a ten-in-ten chance of being abused by an abusive parent.

SugarfreeJazz (06/16/90 12:07:55)

I have seen some pretty shocking statistics that prove rainbow unicorn farts cause lung cancer. However, I can't be arsed to provide said evidence to back up my claims.

robertposteschild (06/08/11 09:08:17)

My Recent Posts

Any time a child is abused or murdered it is shocking.

CPS is not a federal program, it is administered by the states and typically run at the county level. So it's difficult to make sweeping assertions about CPS as a whole. Texas has a pretty bad record, but not all states are at that level. I think emmiedahl lays out the problem pretty well - the agencies are usually understaffed and underfunded, and there are not enough families willing to do foster care.

As for no oversight, that varies too. In CA, the standing grand jury in each county has foster care in its sights. Many counties also allow for independent volunteer advocates who are appointed by the court to act as advocates for children in the child protective system (CASA - Court Appointed Special Advocate) It's kind of like being a Big Brother or Big Sister, but you also go to any court proceedings involving the child's case and you may be asked to testify.

cassandra (06/08/11 09:54:01)

This kind reminds me on how my mom 'trained me'. Whenever she caught me doing something I wasn't supposed to she would just quietly clear her throat, and by the time I was 7 or 8 I would instantly stop what I was doing.

However, it took me some time to realize that not all adults used this method, and when my teachers or friend's parents cleared their throat I wasn't necessarily doing something wrong : )

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 10:18:56)

My Recent Posts

OK, fair enough. Here is a bit of what I've seen.

Number of Cases per 100,000 children in the United States. These numbers come from The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN) in Washington.

CPS- Physical Abuse (160) Sexual Abuse (112) Neglect (410) Medical Neglect (14) Fatalities (6.4)

Parents- Physical Abuse (59) Sexual Abuse (13) Neglect (241) Medical Neglect (12) Fatalities (1.5)

Children are 11 times more likely to be abused in State care than they are in their own homes. *also from NCCAN

http://www.facebook.com/CPSWatch

More here.

https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117988534889051

An interesting page which details some of the lack of accountability issues I mentioned.

And:

http://nccpr.info/the-nccpr-quick-read/

"How can throwing children into a system which churns out walking wounded four times out of five be “erring on the side of the child?â€

treemom (06/08/11 10:28:02)

Well my first question is the quote where they say "if a child is taken from a perfectly safe home"

I am not sure I am willing to make that assumption.

I don't disagree with some of their analysis of foster care. And I would be curious to find out how much of that abuse was perpetrated by other children in the system. That I think is one of the very big issues. It always concerns me when foster parents have 8 foster kids under their care. That is a safety issue in my opinion.

I think all of us can agree that foster care could stand some reform. I think a lot of it needs to be keyed to keeping sibling groups together, limiting the number of other foster children in a home. etc.

LMM, I wonder what the state by state breakdown is. Since these are national numbers it is hard to see what things work and what don't.

treemom (06/08/11 10:29:34)

Also that article talks about Alabama, it seems to me LMM their problem is with foster care not CPS. I think it has some merit. But you seemed to indicate that CPS was the issue, period.

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 10:32:42)

I thought it was common knowledge that there was a link between CPS and abuse/neglect of the very children they're supposed to protect. It just turned out that the numbers were worse than I thought they might be.

treemom (06/08/11 10:33:20)

http://nccpr.info/solutions-services/

Yep, I think all those reforms are the way to go, and if you ask me, that is exactly what many of us would say. Emmiedahl for instance discussed the funding issues. I am for it, raise my taxes and lets get going on it.

treemom (06/08/11 10:34:21)

Correction, foster care. Your numbers speak to foster care and the abuse. CPS is more than that and comes into contact with way more kids that those who are placed in foster care.

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 10:39:25)

I don't know. I got the impression from google that Texas is a bad one (RPC referenced that as well). But, let me just be clear here, I don't really care either. I am not on a witch hunt. I have some personal issues with my own country's child protective services and I'm supportive of any reform or concept of checks and balances.

Really I am just objecting to the way in which I sensed this thought process on the boards: Kendal spanks her kids --> Beating is wrong --> If you beat your kids, CPS should be contacted --> CPS rocks.

treemom (06/08/11 10:43:48)

Actually no, I think what we were really discussing is whether you are obligated to investigate yourself before contacting CPS. (I think no)

What should the threshold be? that sort of stuff.

CPS has issues. But I still maintain they aren't a boogey monster. My experience in the 70s and 80s in several different states was that keeping the family together was very important. Of course that is ancedotal but I didn't get the impression you are. I think the discussion got more OT and less directly related to Kendall. I didn't report her, I didn't feel like what she presented hit my threshold for reporting. But I can understand if others did. And since it appears her children are not horribly abused, if at all and don't appear to be neglected I sincerely doubt they would have been removed.

CPS may not be a saint, but it isn't the enemy either.

\

thoughtful (06/08/11 10:47:52)

This.

Thank you.

SugarfreeJazz (06/08/11 11:00:38)

And I figured it was common knowledge when one makes a claim they cite sources for that claim, especially when others inquire about it. Which was my point.

carter (06/08/11 11:28:05)

My brothers and I were spanked (pants down), hit with switches, and occasionally slapped across the face. I'm not convinced it is a positive form of punishment.

LilMissMetaphor (06/08/11 11:40:54)

Okay, BUUUUUT, I didn't make a claim, certainly not of of the outrageous unicorn farty variety: I just said that it was shocking (to me) what the numbers are. I am quite sure that is what I said. If I announced: "90% of kids taken into custody are better off being in the care of their parents than in the care of CPS", then, I think you guys would be well within your rights to accuse me of acting up in all my axe-grinding, facts-twisting, hair-tearing, unicorn-farting glory.

And demand to see proof.

[treemom]

higgledypiggledy (06/08/11 11:52:43) '

ust did a quick search on foster care stats and this was the first on my list

http://fostersurvivor.netfirms.com/statistics.shtml

I was shocked by the stats listed on this site, which cites their sources, all of which appear to be reputable. The biggest shock was that a child is 5 times MORE likely to die while in foster care.

treemom (06/08/11 11:56:47)

Okay, BUUUUUT, I didn't make a claim, certainly not of of the outrageous unicorn farty variety: I just said that it was shocking (to me) what the numbers are. I am quite sure that is what I said. If I announced: "90% of kids taken into custody are better off being in the care of their parents than in the care of CPS", then, I think you guys would be well within your rights to accuse me of acting up in all my axe-grinding, facts-twisting, hair-tearing, unicorn-farting glory.

And demand to see proof.

Actually I believe it was reasonable to ask for your statistics when you said what you said. Also, care of CPS means something different than Foster Care.

[treemom]

dcmhejbl62 (06/10/11 18:26:09)

Doesn't matter if it hurt, it's still assault. And you may not have known it was wrong, but they did.

Dev83 (06/11/11 07:00:09)

I was spanked as a child, too much I think. My Mom had a pretty bad temper. I wold not say it crossed into the abuse territory, but it was enough that I know I will never ever spank my kids. I believe that there are other ways to punish children and teach them consequences without corporal punishment.

Raine (06/11/11 07:26:02) '

I was spanked a few times by my parents, but it was rare. It was always by my dad, and when I was pretty young, although I do remember my mom slapping my pre-teen sister across the face for something and knocking her off her feet. The bad spankings were when I was sent to live in a Christian "girl's home" - they seemed to spank for almost everything, and they were hard enough to bruise and occasionally cause bleeding (I don't know that my mom knew how bad it was there, but I think she just wanted us out of the house for a while - a coworker convinced her to send my older sister away because she was pregnant, and they talked her into sending my to because I had an attitude and had some trouble at school - I was 13 and my dad had just gone overseas, of course I had issues).

I do not spank my son, and never plan to use spanking for discipline. Honestly, I have been tempted to "smack" his hand or butt a time a two, but those were times when I was frustrated and not so much because he was acting any different than normal. That in itself shows me that it's not something I'd use "properly", if there even is such a thing. My husband has similar issues with it; his parents were abusive and he agrees that it's too easy to take it from discipline to abuse, especially when neither one of us really had a normal upbringing to pattern things after.

taylor48 (06/14/11 19:09:54)

This. I was raised in Southern Kentucky. My mother would use a switch she would get off a bush. Sometimes she would use a fly swatter. Some of my friends had to go get their own switch, but I never had to do that. My father never spanked me. He would just talk with me if I had done something wrong.

I didn't spank my children, I used time-out. Age appropriate, for example, when my daughter was four years old she would have to sit in her time-out spot for 4 minutes.

Taylor

[Lily]

Absolutely not.

I wasn't spanked, per se. Well, I probably was, it was just that there were so many other forms of violence that I don't think spanking was even on my mother's radar. My later adoptive parents never laid a hand on me or even raised their voices.

1 guess as to who I respect and model myself after as a parent.

We don't even use punishment in our house. There are other, healthier ways to live with others, children included, that don't involve an imposition of wills on one another or the punishment/reward classical conditioning model.