Happier than "normal people"? - Duggars

[luckylassie]

My mom likes watching 19 Kids and Counting. I watch too, but for a different reason. She said to me one day (no lie) that the Duggars and Fundy families must be "happier than normal people" because of their seemingly stress-free existance. I disagree. Would you be happy if you were a Bates, Duggar, Keller, or other fundie offspring.

[fundiefan]

My mom likes watching 19 Kids and Counting. I watch too, but for a different reason. She said to me one day (no lie) that the Duggars and Fundy families must be "happier than normal people" because of their seemingly stress-free existance. I disagree. Would you be happy if you were a Bates, Duggar, Keller, or other fundie offspring.

No, I don't agree. One, the Duggars are on television and make their money by promoting themselves. They are a product; a brand. They are not going to show the crap in life. They are not going to allow it to taint their name or image because they sell themselves for money and the ugly parts of life don't jive with self promotion.

Other large families? Keller's obviously have ugly parts of life; their is strife among their adult offspring. Maxwells - well, they would never acknowledge any kind of unhappiness or discontentment because they, like the Duggars but to a much lesser degree, make their money and support themselves on their image and products. Products that exist to make life perfect and if they acknowledge imperfection, they acknowledge their products are not perfect...and they are not perfect. Can't have that.

The whole belief that being saved gives you 'joy' or whatever is, to me, a lie. It's a way to pretend away the bad parts of life. It's a way to ignore when you hurt and/or have feelings or emotions that aren't 'right', by someone's standard. It's a way to keep burying anything that isn't perfect and happy and wear a mask to sell salvation, Christianity or whatever belief system you are living by.

[JenniferJuniper]

Would you be happy if you were a Bates, Duggar, Keller, or other fundie offspring.

No. I'd be suicidal.

And I don't say that lightly or because I was a feminist by the time I was in the first grade.

I grew up in a fairly small house with four younger siblings and I hated all of the chaos and noise. Not to mention the babysitting. My mother understood this and gave me a tiny closet-like room to myself. It was slightly larger than Harry Potter's cupboard under the stairs, but it was all mine and a place where I could read and study - and sleep - in peace.

If I'd been born into Jana Duggar's situation, I'd have lost my mind by now. I don't think it's something I could ever have adapted to. Some personality types just need their own space to thrive.

[Prek teach]

I know for a fact that I would not be happy at all being in a fundie family. Maybe when you're raised in one you might think it to be "normal", but if I went fundie after being raised "normal", I would imagine that I would have a hard time.

I love my two kids, and I love my students, but there is no way that I would want to live in a home with ten or more children in it. I don't like clutter or messes and children are inherently messy when they are little. Sure if one has a bunch of older kids to help with the cleaning that's one thing, but before they are old enough who is going to do the bulk of the cleaning and laundry?

I could homeschool up to a point, but my ability to educate a high school student would be minimal at best. Chemistry, physics and advanced math were never my forte. I like to read. If I lived in a family like the Maxwell's, life would suck.

[bananacat]

Stress free? Watching your kids go hungry and sleep in a pile like hamster is stress free? Nearly dying from pregnancies and having miscarriages is stress free? Getting up in the middle of the night to change loads of laundry and crying because of it is stress free? Changing diapers for a half dozen siblings is stress free? Fearing eternal damnation for the most minor transgression is stress free? Your mom has a very strange idea of what constitutes stress free.

[jockosmom]

I don't think the Bates' and Duggars' lives are stress-free, by any means. They may try to make us think that their lives are so great, but with so many people packed into the same space, there are bound to be stresses. I was the oldest of 5 siblings and I can remember just trying to find 10 quiet minutes by myself in our house - impossible, sometimes. Endless babysitting, helping the little kids with stuff, sharing a room with a sister - there was no privacy or ability to be alone, which is something that my personality craves. I love my alone-time.

[lilwriter85]

I think a lot of the things we see on 19 kids is a bit staged. I believe some of the younger children content in their lives but at this point they don't really know any better about a lot of things. I think with the older Duggar kids particularly the older girls, there are times that don't seem happy. In the episode in which Boob and Mullet went off to El Salvador, i can't remember which girl it was but she was doing most of the homeschooling duties and you could tell she was stressed out. Also recently with Jana going to Journey of the Heart that is a sign that not everyone is happy in Duggar land. I think the older Duggar boys are happy with how their lives are. Josh and John are working for daddy and they never had to look for jobs or go on job interviews.

As for the Maxwells, I can see someone like Sarah eventually becoming unhappy or she might already be. The Maxwell are too strict and rigid. I can see some of Mary and the other younger girl eventually be stressed out because of the need to please Steve and Terri.

I don't think fundie wives/mothers live stress free lives. Some fundies are always facing financial problems. I have seen comments and blogs from fundies in which they talk about living in rundown houses with rodents and snakes, not having medical insurance, driving older vehicles with older tires simply because they believe it is against God to have jobs or accept help from the government.

Also the Duggar documentaries and the show have been carefully edited. There could have been conflicts but TLC choose not to show them. I think a lot of things on the show are staged and the kids are probably told not to fight or do anything negative.

[Effie]

In one way yes. They have this kind of great feeling of togetherness. As a person in this family, you are never alone. There are always people around you. Depending on what kind of person you are, this could be a good thing for you.

In another way no. I prefer to have choices in life. The women have one choice which isn't even something they have decided over. Someone else is deciding over how they will live their lives. I would like to make my own decisions since I'm fully capable to do so. I understand though that it could be quite nice sometimes to shove the responsibility to make decisions on to someone else, especially when/if you agonize over a decision.

[keeperrox]

Happier? No. They're just brainwashed.

[xDreamerx]

I think you would be, if you never thought about it and totally shut off your critical thinking skills. If you were in such denial that you actually *believed* it all then you might be happy, in a sense. In a way, your whole life would be set up for you, an entire worldview and you'd never have to question anything. But the minute you did...it would be a shitstorm.

[ladypuglover]

Me personally? No, I wouldn't be alive today as I was such a sickly child that either they would have missed a lot of my illnesses or neglected the high level of care I needed or just would not have had the money for the $$$$$$$ doctor bills I produced in my first year alone not even counting the millions over the next 17 years of life. About 30 illnesses or medical conditions that poped up easily could have killed me very quickly if my care had been left up souly to an older sister. I almost did die many times over and many times had to be brought back and be on life support. Now as an adult I am rarely sick and have 5 extremely healthy sons. I doubt that would be the case if I had been born into a supersized family that allowed Bill Gothard to rule our home. :(

I would have loved to have had a dozen children through birth or adoption but it didn't happen. If it had it wouldn't have been one big happy all the time because even my smaller family of 7 isn't one big happy all the time. Right now my 4th kiddo is pouting because we can't go swimming with our friends like we planned because the late afternoon thunder storms came 4 hours early. He is doing his very best to make me feel as upset as he is. So, I doubt how ever many children I have and or raise would be any different as we feel it is normal to let our children not be robots and express who they are. I also would be the mother and not allow any of my children raise the younger ones or do the majority of things it takes to run a family of any size. I just don't have the energy to run a house of 14 today. ;)

[emmiedahl]

I don't think they are happier; I think they are avoidant.

I recently read a study of infant behavior. They looked at the way babies act when something positive is removed for a short time. In this case, the mother left the room, leaving the baby with another familiar caregiver. A 'normal' response was found to be crying when the mother left, then expressing happiness when the mother returned. An 'anxious' response was crying when the mother left AND being overly clingy, still crying, etc when she returned. An 'avoidant' response was to not cry or react negatively when the mother left.

The avoidant babies showed no external signs of unhappiness, but their blood pressure, pulse rate, and other physical symptoms showed that they were just as distressed as the normal and anxious babies and in many cases more so. They looked calm because for whatever reason they had figured out that crying and reacting brought no response or even a negative one (the things that produced this behavior were examined in another study discussed in the book). So, while they looked happy, they were very unhappy.

If you look at fundie child training, they are taught from an early age that crying and reacting unhappily will bring a negative response. The calm facade does not mean that they are actually calm or happy.

[ladypuglover]

I don't think they are happier; I think they are avoidant.

I recently read a study of infant behavior. They looked at the way babies act when something positive is removed for a short time. In this case, the mother left the room, leaving the baby with another familiar caregiver. A 'normal' response was found to be crying when the mother left, then expressing happiness when the mother returned. An 'anxious' response was crying when the mother left AND being overly clingy, still crying, etc when she returned. An 'avoidant' response was to not cry or react negatively when the mother left.

The avoidant babies showed no external signs of unhappiness, but their blood pressure, pulse rate, and other physical symptoms showed that they were just as distressed as the normal and anxious babies and in many cases more so. They looked calm because for whatever reason they had figured out that crying and reacting brought no response or even a negative one (the things that produced this behavior were examined in another study discussed in the book). So, while they looked happy, they were very unhappy.

If you look at fundie child training, they are taught from an early age that crying and reacting unhappily will bring a negative response. The calm facade does not mean that they are actually calm or happy.

This, this this this! :clap:

[shesinsane]

I've always been a question asker, so I don't think I would have fared well. Doing something I don't want to do because the Bible or my father said so just wouldn't work for me. However, if that's all I ever knew and I didn't know what non-secular thrills I was missing, I guess I might be happy in my ignorance. I wouldn't know what I was missing, and when I inquired, I'd be told horrible things about the outside world. If all thing things I never knew (wearing pants, reading science fiction, etc.) were contstantly described to me as terrible, eventually I'd believe it and be glad my parents kept me away from all that awful stuff.

I recall one of the little Duggar boys once had a throw away line about being glad he wasn't exposed to television with all its pornography. To me it was hilarious because a) what the Duggars call porn probably is risque, but not what most of us would consider porn and b) he's way too young to appreciate porn. Beer doesn't taste good to most 8 year olds, but when they grow up their tastes change and they really enjoy it.

And as someone else pointed out, can we really be sure these kids are happy? Their entire lives they've been taught about character and have grown up really good at plastering on a smile no matter what's going on in their heads. Short of mind reading, there's no way to be sure they really mean it when they say how happy they are to be raised in ignorance.

[ADoyle90815]

I think it's possible they might believe that, especially if they've been brainwashed into not using critical thinking skills, and by not allowing outside influences to defraud them. By sheltering themselves and their families, they're not exposed to "walking pornography" which means women who show just a bit of skin, or who wear pants.

[browngrl]

I suspect that some of them might be happy. I think some people do love the lifestyle. My MIL(who is not a fundie and is a wonderful person) loves children and regrets she could only have a few. She would have filled her house with children had she been able. She also loves homemaking. Nothing gives her greater pleasure than looking after her family. My parents (also not fundie and also wonderful people) love being surrounded by family and company and they are constantly entertaining - they love the chaos of a house filled with people. I can't stand any of it. I never could. Even as a child I was always questioning everything and I was a stubborn loner who was always making sarcastic/snarky comments. I would be clinically depressed if I had to live that lifestyle. Thank goodness I come from a family where everyone is accepted for who they are and our differences are cause for celebration not concern.

[Witsec6]

I don't think they are happier; I think they are avoidant.

I recently read a study of infant behavior. They looked at the way babies act when something positive is removed for a short time. In this case, the mother left the room, leaving the baby with another familiar caregiver. A 'normal' response was found to be crying when the mother left, then expressing happiness when the mother returned. An 'anxious' response was crying when the mother left AND being overly clingy, still crying, etc when she returned. An 'avoidant' response was to not cry or react negatively when the mother left.

The avoidant babies showed no external signs of unhappiness, but their blood pressure, pulse rate, and other physical symptoms showed that they were just as distressed as the normal and anxious babies and in many cases more so. They looked calm because for whatever reason they had figured out that crying and reacting brought no response or even a negative one (the things that produced this behavior were examined in another study discussed in the book). So, while they looked happy, they were very unhappy.

If you look at fundie child training, they are taught from an early age that crying and reacting unhappily will bring a negative response. The calm facade does not mean that they are actually calm or happy.

That's the saddest thing I've ever heard! :cry:

[jockosmom]

I've often wondered, though, what it must be like to "know" everything and be sure of everything the way these people seem to be. There doesn't seem to be any gray areas in their lives; everything is known, figured out, how to get to heaven is all laid out, neat and simple. Just follow these rules and all will be well. What you should think about every thing and every situation is laid out for you somewhere, in some pastor's teachings and in the Bible, if you just know where to look for it. You don't get exposed to a lot that goes on in the outer world, so you can live happily in your perfect world where you are the best Christian ever!!

[GoJiRa]

I have not watched any of those shows.

[liltwinstar]

I think some people probably are happy living that lifestyle. It's a pretty good one for men, for one thing :)

If the man in the family makes a really good wage (say at least over $100k/year) and if a woman naturally likes domestic stuff, raising babies, and she has relatively healthy and complication-free pregnancies, and if they have a good support system? Then sure, you could be pretty happy. But take away one of those things - through a job loss, a catastrophic illness, etc and there wouldn't be much "happy" any more.

I was not happy in that world.

[antifundie]

It's hard to explain to people who haven't been in that world, but you really truly don't feel that you have options. I know I didn't.

And the info on babies is heartbreaking, but very very interesting!

It was only recently that I realized the appropriate response to a crying baby is to comfort him/her or figure out what's wrong. I mean, obviously, sometimes it's easier than others, but I thought that you had to basically fight with your kid every time he or she cries. When my nephew cries, his parents feed him, or change him, or put him down for a nap--they don't fight him to make him stop crying. It's stunning to me that babies will stop crying with love, you know?

And I think people can be happy in that lifestyle up to a point--even a woman who likes kids/babies and domestic stuff would probably crack after 10+ kids, I'm thinking, unless she did the buddy system thing. That's just a crap ton of work for anybody, regardless of how much you like it.

[Patsy]

I recently read a study of infant behavior...

If you look at fundie child training, they are taught from an early age that crying and reacting unhappily will bring a negative response. The calm facade does not mean that they are actually calm or happy.

Depressing, but apt. I'll go one step further and say that training people to ignore their emotions is actively damaging.

However, I don't doubt that some people are very happy to live (relatively) limited lives, and after all, there are six billion people on this planet - I'm sure there are enough people who find genuine fulfilment in the particular range of practices that come along with the beliefs. They just happen to leave themselves very open to things that could make them utterly miserable and trapped, imo.