‘Hang my son, he deserves it’

[Guest Anonymous]

So no son of a single Mother ever raped, ever?

I'm not interested in who is right. I find that quite shocking. A young girl is dead whatever the circumstances. But I think your thinking is very narrow.

I'm not sure the question of who is 'right' is particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. Or , at least, I'm not sure what those of us who have not yet made any judgement could possibly be 'wrong' about the judgment we have not made, either now or in the future.

Avenues, why do you think it is 'wrong' to suspend judgement on a family, based on the fact that we know too little about them at this stage?

[AVENues]

Why do people love to bring up single mothers when it comes to some sorry ass criminal? I don't get it. It always goes back to single mothers as a bad example.

Neglected children can easily grow up to be criminals. Single parents or not. But there is NO single parent here, so can we not shame single mothers one more time? Because even if it has nothing to do with anything, someone will just bring up single mothers as a bad example like they are a criminal factory.

[Dysfundamental]

Well, we know that Vinay Sharma grew up in a patriarchal environment; it says in the India Express article that his grandfather was a priest and that he spent his childhood in a temple.

And it's been posited by a number of Indian commentators that the roots of the appallingly high rates of rape in their country, and the lack of successful prosecutions, are linked to patriarchal traditions. [link=http://www.opednews.com/articles/Patriarchy-the-Social-Ord-by-Prakash-Kona-121222-393.html]This[/link] is a well-argued article, as is [link=http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/12/24/patriarchal-mindset/]this[/link].

[OkToBeTakei]

Why do people love to bring up single mothers when it comes to some sorry ass criminal? I don't get it. It always goes back to single mothers as a bad example.

Neglected children can easily grow up to be criminals. Single parents or not. But there is NO single parent here, so can we not shame single mothers one more time? Because even if it has nothing to do with anything, someone will just bring up single mothers as a bad example like they are a criminal factory.

No you misunderstand. I brought it up not in any way to shame single Mothers but in your response that ALL rapists must have been brought up in a Patriarchal environment to commit rape.

An example, where the possibility of no Patriarchal involvement, not a shaming.

[BlackHawk]

Why? Who the heck allowed them to act like misogynistic jerks? Who? Their friggin families who were, very obviously, of the same kind. Who didn't educate them about women not being free to use sex items? Who forgot to raise their son into respectful men? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?! An entire gang of rapist murderers raised by an entire bunch of patriarchal cowards. I'll never buy their tears, they are just saving themselves. O.O And I still wonder what ELSE have preceded this event because quite obviously, this person had thought he could get away with anything. By the time you assume you can get away with raping woman on the street, you'll have to get away with a bunch of messed up shit that you do not get into trouble for. What else? What brings you to this point?

** JFYI I'm not a fortune teller. What do you want me to call this asshole's asshole parents? Rest assured, this brat grew up in a patriarchal household and probably was an apple of IT's father's eyes, who's probably of the same kind. And the mother of course, did shut up. Their ass is on fire, and all they do is trying to save face. They disown they son now that they have failed as parents. And I'll give a couple of weeks until someone spills the beans about this asshole to the media. It will be fun. :) Now bother someone else, you heard my answer.

You seem very angry. You seem to think everyone who has ever done anything wrong only does so because their family allows it, or supports it. Can no one deviate from their families upbringing to do things wrong? Are behavioral disorders caused because of patriarchy of family upbringing? Or could their be other factors you cannot identify so easily?

I'm not asking you to be a fortune teller. I'm not asking you to BE anything. You are making broad based assumptions based on facts you don't have. Simple as that really.

As for your dismissal... wow. This is a board where people converse with each other. If you think answering questions is bothersome, perhaps you should look at your involvement in such a board.

Most of them, yes. Where else do you learn that women owe you sex or women are superior?! I blame the patriarchy. And people with patriarchal mindsets.

Again, how much shit do you have to get away with to bravely (cowardly) and fulfilled with confidence, attack and rape a woman in public eye?! Just how much? Ok, it's getting like a shark tank in here. Again, I'm waiting for reports on these folks because now that people will have the courage to speak up, we might hear some interesting stuff. I do not believe them and they failed raising a decent man. They have proven that one right. They failed. I had my say. I don't want to be like a broken record and I won't.

**boo hoo, people disagree. We'll see who's right. We're going to hear about these folks in the future.

If you are waiting for reports of the family then wait for them, but don't be so defensive when people call you out for NOT having said reports yet.

As for your boo hoo statement.... the only one boo-hooing is you.

[bekkah]

India is quite patriarchal. While living there, I had numerous gropings on the metro. No one ever approached me on the street but I was taller than most men.

This is a normal thing in India. It is lucky that this is even getting prosecuted. Crime is more in New Delhi/Mumbai but that is what gets the most attention because of the foreigners living there.

If you want a good movie, watch No One Killed Jessica. Its about a model who was killed and the police didn't want to investigate it. Sorry I went to it while I was in India and my friend translated it while I was watching. I have the DVD, I just haven't gotten around to watching it in subtitles.

http://www.amazon.com/No-One-Killed-Jes ... ed+jessica

[BravaAmica]

Why? Who the heck allowed them to act like misogynistic jerks? Who? Their friggin families who were, very obviously, of the same kind. Who didn't educate them about women not being free to use sex items? Who forgot to raise their son into respectful men? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?! An entire gang of rapist murderers raised by an entire bunch of patriarchal cowards. I'll never buy their tears, they are just saving themselves. O.O And I still wonder what ELSE have preceded this event because quite obviously, this person had thought he could get away with anything. By the time you assume you can get away with raping woman on the street, you'll have to get away with a bunch of messed up shit that you do not get into trouble for. What else? What brings you to this point?

** JFYI I'm not a fortune teller. What do you want me to call this asshole's asshole parents? Rest assured, this brat grew up in a patriarchal household and probably was an apple of IT's father's eyes, who's probably of the same kind. And the mother of course, did shut up. Their ass is on fire, and all they do is trying to save face. They disown they son now that they have failed as parents. And I'll give a couple of weeks until someone spills the beans about this asshole to the media. It will be fun. :) Now bother someone else, you heard my answer.

QFT

[J'ean Skirt]

So no son of a single Mother ever raped, ever?

I'm not interested in who is right. I find that quite shocking. A young girl is dead whatever the circumstances. But I think your thinking is very narrow.

Patriarchy: you're soaking in it.

[JesusFightClub]

So........I wonder if a horrific crime such as this changes the minds of those who oppose the death penalty, or is that a firmly held position only until a crime so egregious is committed? Are death penalty opponents then ok with that sentence?

Makes no difference. I'm not automatically opposed to the death penalty, but I would be opposed to it in this case.

You can't let your emotions judge in a case where the death penalty is in question. As horrible as what they did is, is there a net gain from their death? A balance? Not just "does it make me feel better to know they're dead"?

Tell you true, death doesn't help anyone directly. It doesn't bring anyone back or unrape anyone. You have to look at the wider gain for society.

[OkToBeTakei]

Patriarchy: you're soaking in it.

HUH?

That's helpful to the discussion in what way? You know to be honest I don't think it is up for discussion wether India is a Patriarchal society, but to condemn the whole country seems a bit extreme. There are exceptions to everything. If it should turn out that these boys were brought up to view women as only an object to do with what they will, when they want and that this contributed totally to the horrific crime, I would be among the many to condemn.

Point is we do not know that yet, it may be very likely from what other posters have reported. I still will not condemn the whole of India or the fact that rapist was brought up in a Patriarchal society therefore all brought up this way will/are rapists.

I hardly see how that has me soaking in patriarchy.

[Minerva]

Why? Who the heck allowed them to act like misogynistic jerks? Who? Their friggin families who were, very obviously, of the same kind. Who didn't educate them about women not being free to use sex items? Who forgot to raise their son into respectful men? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?! An entire gang of rapist murderers raised by an entire bunch of patriarchal cowards. I'll never buy their tears, they are just saving themselves. O.O And I still wonder what ELSE have preceded this event because quite obviously, this person had thought he could get away with anything. By the time you assume you can get away with raping woman on the street, you'll have to get away with a bunch of messed up shit that you do not get into trouble for. What else? What brings you to this point?

** JFYI I'm not a fortune teller. What do you want me to call this asshole's asshole parents? Rest assured, this brat grew up in a patriarchal household and probably was an apple of IT's father's eyes, who's probably of the same kind. And the mother of course, did shut up. Their ass is on fire, and all they do is trying to save face. They disown they son now that they have failed as parents. And I'll give a couple of weeks until someone spills the beans about this asshole to the media. It will be fun. :) Now bother someone else, you heard my answer.

When I first read this whole rant, I thought it must be satirical.

ETA wait, was it? I read the thread a second time and I'm confused.

[Minerva]

So........I wonder if a horrific crime such as this changes the minds of those who oppose the death penalty, or is that a firmly held position only until a crime so egregious is committed? Are death penalty opponents then ok with that sentence?

It probably depends on the person, but I think it's completely illogical to be against the death penalty and then change your mind for a case which, while horrific, is comparable to other crimes that have gotten the death penalty. So I'm going to assume that most people who are against the death penalty are against it here, too.

[Beb]

Makes no difference. I'm not automatically opposed to the death penalty, but I would be opposed to it in this case.

You can't let your emotions judge in a case where the death penalty is in question. As horrible as what they did is, is there a net gain from their death? A balance? Not just "does it make me feel better to know they're dead"?

Tell you true, death doesn't help anyone directly. It doesn't bring anyone back or unrape anyone. You have to look at the wider gain for society.

I agree with you, JFC.

I oppose murder of men, women and children. I oppose crimes against men, women and children. And I oppose the death penalty.

Many people oppose the penalty through lip service, but when a crime triggers a particular emotional response, the death penalty is then ok.

Although everyone is horrified by certain crime people vary in what particularly moves them.

[browngrl]

India is quite patriarchal. One of the big reasons my father chose to emigrate (even though he was a professor with a good job and servants and would be going to Canada where his credentials would not be recognized and he would have to do menial work for minimum wage) was because he had daughters. When I was born my father and mother wanted to throw a big celebration. My father says that he decided to leave when his colleagues (university educated, from "good" families) were surprised and shocked that he would want to celebrate the birth of a girl. It was the first time that he actually noticed and became aware of the status of women in India. Of course my dad's colleagues are not representative of all Indians (indeed many of them have subsequently done a 180 degree change in opinion of women) - many Indians (my family included) value women and give them equal status but there is a prevailing culture of misogyny. The biggest problem with this culture is that people see smaller violations of women as the norm - so routine and casual that it would not even ping the radar of many. I suspect that the rapists families did not even suspect much less see the direct line extending from simple every day examples of treating women as less to this horrific rape/murder. I feel sorry for them because the truth of the patriarchal lies has been slammed in them. I suspect they are genuinely shocked and saddened. In no way am I apologizing for them. It is just that I can empathize with how shocked they are. In a very minor way - my own father had accepted the prevailing culture till the my birth woke him up.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

It's taken me a while to develop my position on the death penalty, but I oppose it absolutely, in any case, no matter how horrific. Apart from the fact that I do not believe a government exists that is sufficiently free from corruption, and in possession of good enough science in all cases, to NEVER put an innocent person to death, I also believe that violence begets violence. Therefore, when we institutionalize killing, we send out a subtle message that there are circumstances in which violence is just and good, which leads to more violence overall.

[Dysfundamental]

While looking at other articles on the Delhi attack in the Indian Express, I came across this discussion of a horrifying legal principle, which according to the article is still used in court: [link=http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gangrape-victims-only-crime-was-to-be-born-a-girl-in-india-says-bjps-sushma-swaraj/1052526/]the "two-finger test"[/link].

[Dysfundamental]

And another piece by Taslima Nasreen, to whose blog I linked earlier, [link=http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/12/29/women-are-raped-to-death/]really hit home[/link].

[EyeQueue]

While looking at other articles on the Delhi attack in the Indian Express, I came across this discussion of a horrifying legal principle, which according to the article is still used in court: the "two-finger test".

This is absolutely repulsive. Leaving aside the utter misogyny and other fails with this "legal principle", if a woman has been raped, wouldn't her hymen likely be broken b/c of the rape? WTF?!

[AVENues]

1.) I have been to India. Also lived in countries with large and PATRIARCHAL Indian communities. (None of anyone's damn business, but I actually live a few hundred miles from India, and the mods know that.)

2.) Just because they are not Christian and white communities, Indian patriarchy will be fine and dandy? Patriarchy in India is just a same. It's the same all over the world. Younger generations tend to show changes of mindsets - thank f*ck - but patriarchy is patriarchy, no matter where you go. Men get away with everything, and women look the other way or cover up for them. Headships are worshiped and sons, especially first borns are the ones that are expected to keep the keep the (patriarchal) bloodline going on. Do we have to bring up what happens to most baby girls at birth? I will gladly "berkerp" that one with youtube videos of interviews with Indian midwives, in case someone would like to look the other way.

3.) Again, and one more time. What is it with the cheering to the death penalty suggestion? I'm asking the ones that oppose DP with tooth and nails - in other threads. Hmmmmm? We can leave it at that, I'll just book it as plain old two facery.

4.) Some people here all the time seem to claim that there is no difference between fundy families, fundy people, fundy churches, because the basic beliefs are the same, and even, there is no difference between fundy people. Persons. Human beings. They are being talked about with sweeping generalizations.

So what's up with "this particular family", who HAS to be treated, talked about and handled as a bunch of unique individuals, despite the fact that they are living in the mental heritage of thousands of years of hardcore and merciless patriarchy? SB people are all the same like they came from the same test tube and they were clones, but these delicate flowers, who, if the case hadn't gotten major, international attention, probably would have continued protecting their brat, because he is a MALE.

5.) Again. I'm still having my eyes peeled for someone to finally go on youtube, write in their blogs, give an interview, whatever! about this community, these people, this family, and tell the world finally, what else had preceded this case. You don't just snap one day if you are a normal person and gang rape a woman. You must have the mindset of a patriarchal male animal to do that, and the courage and support from your lovely friends and family, and the confidence that you can do it, and people will, again, look in the other way.

These people belong in jail. The case must have been preceded by hundreds of atrocious crimes until they had gotten to the point of feeling like a king that can touch and rape anything they want. They all must pay for not only this, but whatever they have done in the past.

In Patriarchy, women are also trained to shun girls and women that are abused, molested but dare speak up. Just because this case did not happen among southern or other fundies, let's not pretend that this particular patriarchy is innocent and their family are a loving, tolerant, respectful bunch of people. Their son would not have turned out to be a monster with extreme amount of power and no sense of boundaries.

***ETA!! So if death penalty is wrong in most cases, but DP suggestion is okay in this case, and people are cheering even... Also, if all the SB people are the same but here, now we are talking about a particular family because they are from a different ethnic group... do some of you, at all, have a solid and stable mindset about basic ethical issues in life? These are the ones that bother me the most. You don't just tailor your mindset about patriarchy or death penalty depending on which part of the world it happens. Double standard? Really? Not even double... multiple.

[Guest Anonymous]

No you misunderstand. I brought it up not in any way to shame single Mothers but in your response that ALL rapists must have been brought up in a Patriarchal environment to commit rape.

An example, where the possibility of no Patriarchal involvement, not a shaming.

I've not been following this argument, but I feel it's worth pointing out: children raised by single mothers are not automatically removed from the patriarchy. While they may not have their own fathers imposing patriarchal sensibilities onto them, they still live in largely patriarchal societies. Books, TV, movies, and school can all impress elements of the patriarchal system onto children, regardless of whether their biological father is standing over them.

ETA: And if the mother was raised in a patriarchal environment herself, she may well pass this on to her children.

[AVENues]

Well, we know that Vinay Sharma grew up in a patriarchal environment; it says in the India Express article that his grandfather was a priest and that he spent his childhood in a temple.

And it's been posited by a number of Indian commentators that the roots of the appallingly high rates of rape in their country, and the lack of successful prosecutions, are linked to patriarchal traditions. [link=http://www.opednews.com/articles/Patriarchy-the-Social-Ord-by-Prakash-Kona-121222-393.html]This[/link] is a well-argued article, as is [link=http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/12/24/patriarchal-mindset/]this[/link].

Pretty much what I thought without trying to be chasing butterflies or unicorns. Thank you very much for your effort. Things will be surely but slowly having a very solid backup - because it isn't obvious and we need it :roll: - , for those who would love to look the other way, even though human logic and sense of morality serve you the answer on a silver plate.

[Minerva]

Pretty much what I thought without trying to be chasing butterflies or unicorns. Thank you very much for your effort. Things will be surely but slowly having a very solid backup - because it isn't obvious and we need it :roll: - , for those who would love to look the other way, even though human logic and sense of morality serve you the answer on a silver plate.

Could you clear up what point you're trying to make? Is it that India is more patriarchal, and therefore has more violence against women and girls, than the Western countries most FJers live in? Because I don't think there's a single person on this thread who doesn't already know that.

[JesusFightClub]

AVEnues, you're pretty much attacking a strawman here.

I don't see anyone doing a U-turn over the death penalty in the case mentioned. I haven't - I believe the death penalty can be valid but I do not trust present States to administer it. I also would say that in a revolutionary situation where decisions need to be made swiftly it is a valid choice that a revolutionary army, group or court could make.

While my reasoning isn't the same as others' reasoning is, I think we can all say the death penalty needs a nuanced approach. Killing people because you're really disgusted by their crime means the emotions take control. When you do that you're lost.

In this case I don't think the death penalty would make sense. It would be an unlikely deterrent because conditions in that country don't exactly support women's rights anyway. It might even have the opposite effect. "Oh look at us, we're punishing these crimes SO HARSHLY" - while thousands of similar crimes slip under the radar.

Also, I would question the ability for a free and fair trial. I do not trust any State and I do not know that there is a clear and present risk to a wider social concept, which would necessitate execution. It does sometimes happen that there is, and in that case execution is the answer. In this case, tragic and horrible though it is, is there really a clear line?

[AVENues]

JFC, I appreciate your reply. I still don't know why is Indian patriarchy better than Christian patriarchy. Why are christian fundies "all the same" - we are talking about millions of people - while this family is probably :roll: a bunch of innocent and unique individuals. Nevermind. I had to be the spokesperson, because no one is willing to speak up loud against patriarchy in India, despite the fact that there are thousands of videos available everywhere.

Some of the replies I got made no sense, were sarcastic and phlegmatic and willfully stupid and ignorant towards the patriarchal system in India. And offered no replies to very clear questions I asked.

Some people show more sympathy to the bunch of patriarchal toolbags that raised another patriarchal, dominant subhuman being, than the victim herself. Boohoo, poor idiots, they have finally gotten bit in the ass by Karma, and attention will be drawn to their entire, rotten-to-the-core, male-dominant rape culture.

And one more thing. The first few comments were downright cheering to the father's suggestion of hanging his son, the asshole he raised himself. There was no reply like, "I understand they are angry but death penalty is no solution since it was them who raised him into what he is today." This would have been a morally accurate reply.

I just pray that this case will cause major changes in the Indian patriarchal system and international feminist associations will be involved. I hope that there will be a change in education. Apparently, until this point, most of these sorry ass parents did not even know that it was not okay for their son to cherry pick and rape pedestrians. Now they are just scared shitless.

[Minerva]

JFC, I appreciate your reply. I still don't know why is Indian patriarchy better than Christian patriarchy. Why are christian fundies "all the same" - we are talking about millions of people - while this family is probably :roll: a bunch of innocent and unique individuals. Nevermind. I had to be the spokesperson, because no one is willing to speak up loud against patriarchy in India, despite the fact that there are thousands of videos available everywhere.

Some of the replies I got made no sense, were sarcastic and phlegmatic and willfully stupid and ignorant towards the patriarchal system in India. And offered no replies to very clear questions I asked.

Some people show more sympathy to the bunch of patriarchal toolbags that raised another patriarchal, dominant subhuman being, than the victim herself. Boohoo, poor idiots, they have finally gotten bit in the ass by Karma, and attention will be drawn to their entire, rotten-to-the-core, male-dominant rape culture.

And one more thing. The first few comments were downright cheering to the father's suggestion of hanging his son, the asshole he raised himself. There was no reply like, "I understand they are angry but death penalty is no solution since it was them who raised him into what he is today." This would have been a morally accurate reply.

I just pray that this case will cause major changes in the Indian patriarchal system and international feminist associations will be involved. I hope that there will be a change in education. Apparently, until this point, most of these sorry ass parents did not even know that it was not okay for their son to cherry pick and rape pedestrians. Now they are just scared shitless.

Who, specifically, is saying that Indian patriarchy is better than Christian patriarchy? Who, specifically, was being wilfully stupid about patriarchy in India? I wanna see some quotes, because I can't find an example, all I see is you attacking a position that no one has taken.

Not only has no one cheered the idea of hanging the guy, but did this not happen?

I'm against the death penalty, but I'm happy to see that these people are holding their son accountable for his own actions, and not defending him til the end. Blood is not thicker than water!