‘Hang my son, he deserves it’

[B5SnowDog]

***ETA!! So if death penalty is wrong in most cases, but DP suggestion is okay in this case, and people are cheering even... Also, if all the SB people are the same but here, now we are talking about a particular family because they are from a different ethnic group... do some of you, at all, have a solid and stable mindset about basic ethical issues in life? These are the ones that bother me the most. You don't just tailor your mindset about patriarchy or death penalty depending on which part of the world it happens. Double standard? Really? Not even double... multiple.

Can you provide links to posts in which the pro-death penalty posters in this thread stated they were against the death penalty in other threads?

[AVENues]

You want me to go through tens of thousands of probably controversial posts for your 2 pretty eyes? Really? : ) Aren't you cute.

So part of the people on this board are PRO death penalty you say. Interesting thing to learn. Okay, so for your sake and for your scary avatar, I'll just remember which ones are PRO death penalty - based on THIS thread and the fact that they did not stand up to the father's request to getting his son killed. Easy.

[B5SnowDog]

You want me to go through tens of thousands of probably controversial posts

No, I just thought you'd have some support for your assertion that individual posters here are inconsistent in their positions on the death penalty.

for your 2 pretty eyes? Really? : ) Aren't you cute.

Thank you! I'm downright adorable.

So part of the people on this board are PRO death penalty you say. Interesting thing to learn.

Yes, some posters here are pro-death penalty, others are anti-death penalty, and others are undecided. Why would you think everyone here has the same opinion?

Okay, so for your sake and for your scary avatar

Why is my avatar scary to you?

[Witsec7]

You want me to go through tens of thousands of probably controversial posts for your 2 pretty eyes? Really? : ) Aren't you cute.

So part of the people on this board are PRO death penalty you say. Interesting thing to learn. Okay, so for your sake and for your scary avatar, I'll just remember which ones are PRO death penalty - based on THIS thread and the fact that they did not stand up to the father's request to getting his son killed. Easy.

Quit crapping on the rugs.

[Mama Mia]

AVENues - I think you are confusing the issues and people's thoughts. I think most people would assume that the parent's reaction to their child doing something horrific is going to be a human reaction. A mixture of horror, shame, guilt, sorrow for the victim(s) AND sorrow for their own child.

Assuming that the parent's directly caused or condone this kind of behavior is really a stretch. They may have belief systems that didn't help, they may be in a culture that made the crime more likely - but that is not the same thing as saying to your child that it is okay to go out and commit violent horrific crimes. I would imagine 99% of parents would be absolutely appalled and horrified - but would still feel love for their child -because it is their child. I think that would be true generally whether they were the worst or the best parent's on the planet.I don't think it matters if the horrific act is a gang rape or a mass murder or a terrorist act.

Your reactions however seem really out of proportion to people disagreeing with you.

For the record, I have mixed feelings about the death penalty.

[Dysfundamental]

Could you clear up what point you're trying to make? Is it that India is more patriarchal, and therefore has more violence against women and girls, than the Western countries most FJers live in? Because I don't think there's a single person on this thread who doesn't already know that.

Someone said that we don't know that the rapists/murderers in this case were influenced by patriarchy. Or at least that's how I understood the conversation. Perhaps I misunderstood?

I also thought those particular comments were insightful, and from the perspectives of people living in India and working to address these issues every day.

[moodygirl86]

Yes, the rapist(s) have been brought up in a patriarchial society, and he may well have got some of his misogynistic beliefs from his parents. But the only person to blame for a rape is the rapist.

[Guest Anonymous]

Quit crapping on the rugs.

This seems like really irrational and out-of-character behaviour for this poster. I'm confused. :?

[synchroswimr]

I'm with B5SnowDog. If you are making specific accusations of someone's hypocrisy, it isn't out of line to ask for specifics. If I said that AVENues kicks puppies for sport, you can bet someone would ask me for proof, and such a request would be warranted.

Oh, and you accuse us of believing (incorrectly) that all fundies are the same (and yes, that does happen on occasion), but can't believe that WE aren't all the same? Huh. FTR, I am against the death penalty in all cases. Including this one.

[formergothardite]

AVENues - I think you are confusing the issues and people's thoughts. I think most people would assume that the parent's reaction to their child doing something horrific is going to be a human reaction. A mixture of horror, shame, guilt, sorrow for the victim(s) AND sorrow for their own child.

Assuming that the parent's directly caused or condone this kind of behavior is really a stretch. They may have belief systems that didn't help, they may be in a culture that made the crime more likely - but that is not the same thing as saying to your child that it is okay to go out and commit violent horrific crimes. I would imagine 99% of parents would be absolutely appalled and horrified - but would still feel love for their child -because it is their child. I think that would be true generally whether they were the worst or the best parent's on the planet.I don't think it matters if the horrific act is a gang rape or a mass murder or a terrorist act.

Your reactions however seem really out of proportion to people disagreeing with you.

For the record, I have mixed feelings about the death penalty.

Exactly. I know fundie families that would be horrified that they raised children who did something like that. So it could be that the parents are patriachal, but still horrified at what their child did.

I'm anti-death penalty, but there are plenty of people here who are pro-death penalty.

I just don't really understand what this major overeaction is really all about. :?

[B5SnowDog]

This seems like really irrational and out-of-character behaviour for this poster. I'm confused. :?

You must've missed the More Stuff I Wanna Say But Can't discussion.

[Guest Anonymous]

You must've missed the More Stuff I Wanna Say But Can't discussion.

:shock: You're right, I did. Thank you for the link.

I must have been avoiding your 'scary avatar' that day.... :)

[Sinister Rouge]

You must've missed the More Stuff I Wanna Say But Can't discussion.

Ahhhhh, I remember that little incident. It suddenly all makes sense. Thank you!

[B5SnowDog]

:shock: You're right, I did. Thank you for the link.

I must have been avoiding your 'scary avatar' that day.... :)

Booga booga booga! :lol:

[BravaAmica]

You must've missed the More Stuff I Wanna Say But Can't discussion.

I missed that discussion. :shock:

[Sobeknofret]

It probably depends on the person, but I think it's completely illogical to be against the death penalty and then change your mind for a case which, while horrific, is comparable to other crimes that have gotten the death penalty. So I'm going to assume that most people who are against the death penalty are against it here, too.

I'm against it in all cases including this one. The crime was horrific and I can understand the need to *do* something for justice though.

[Sinister Rouge]

Booga booga booga! :lol:

For the longest time I thought your avatar was JLo in her "Love Don't Cost a Thing" video. You know, when her hair was in braids.

4kGvlESGvbs

So I was like, "Scary? Are they afraid of bling? Or beaches? Or butts?" Now I know, it must be the braids that are scary. :banana-dreads:

[J'ean Skirt]

HUH?

That's helpful to the discussion in what way? You know to be honest I don't think it is up for discussion wether India is a Patriarchal society, but to condemn the whole country seems a bit extreme. There are exceptions to everything. If it should turn out that these boys were brought up to view women as only an object to do with what they will, when they want and that this contributed totally to the horrific crime, I would be among the many to condemn.

The comment I was replying to was the one that implied that without a father, children couldn't be raised in a patriarchy. I was merely commenting that patriarchy is not just about having a father or male in the home, but was a deeper social system. Women enforce patriarchal rules as well, and in some areas (particularly those that do have a very male-focused system and restrict rights for women) they are the primary enforcers.

Point is we do not know that yet, it may be very likely from what other posters have reported. I still will not condemn the whole of India or the fact that rapist was brought up in a Patriarchal society therefore all brought up this way will/are rapists.

I hardly see how that has me soaking in patriarchy.

I did not see anyone claim that all men are rapists (because all of us were raised in patriarchal societies). But if you feel the need to think I did, feel free. You're wrong, but my statement was a bit snarky and probably could have used more of an explanation.

[Minerva]

Someone said that we don't know that the rapists/murderers in this case were influenced by patriarchy. Or at least that's how I understood the conversation. Perhaps I misunderstood?

I also thought those particular comments were insightful, and from the perspectives of people living in India and working to address these issues every day.

I too appreciate the insight of posters who've lived in India - a lot of this thread has been very informative - but it's annoying to see someone railing against a position that no one has taken. I do hope AVENues provides me with the quotes I've asked for, but seeing as I've read through the thread loads of times now and don't see what she's talking about, I won't hold my breath.

[rollmeover]

Makes no difference. I'm not automatically opposed to the death penalty, but I would be opposed to it in this case.

You can't let your emotions judge in a case where the death penalty is in question. As horrible as what they did is, is there a net gain from their death? A balance? Not just "does it make me feel better to know they're dead"?

Tell you true, death doesn't help anyone directly. It doesn't bring anyone back or unrape anyone. You have to look at the wider gain for society.

I'm opposed to the death penalty in all instances. I am opposed in this instance also. If my son raped a woman to death I would be disgusted and horrified but I wouldn't want him killed for it. I'm a rape survivor (two men, not a gang) and I don't want them killed either.

[Dysfundamental]

I too appreciate the insight of posters who've lived in India - a lot of this thread has been very informative - but it's annoying to see someone railing against a position that no one has taken. I do hope AVENues provides me with the quotes I've asked for, but seeing as I've read through the thread loads of times now and don't see what she's talking about, I won't hold my breath.

The response was to OKtoBeTakei's comments about "if it should turn out" that a patriarchal environment was a factor in this case. Perhaps I did not understand her comments correctly. Also, I was hardly "railing" in my post.

[kiwimusume]

I missed that discussion. :shock:

Damn, I'm 15 posts away from knowing what that was all about.

[Minerva]

The response was to OKtoBeTakei's comments about "if it should turn out" that a patriarchal environment was a factor in this case. Perhaps I did not understand her comments correctly. Also, I was hardly "railing" in my post.

No, you absolutely weren't. It was AVENues doing the railing, I should have made that clearer.

[B5SnowDog]

For the longest time I thought your avatar was JLo in her "Love Don't Cost a Thing" video. You know, when her hair was in braids.

4kGvlESGvbs

So I was like, "Scary? Are they afraid of bling? Or beaches? Or butts?" Now I know, it must be the braids that are scary. :banana-dreads:

Hee!

[Esther]

I think nobody is denying that India is a patriarchal society with lots of issues re: the discrimination of women. I also think that calling these parents assholes and holding them personally responsible for what their sons did is really QUITE a stretch. Perhaps they would condone this under other (less publicized) circumstances. Or perhaps this is really several bridges to far for many decent people, no matter how patriarchal, to condone, and they are genuinely horrified. I don't think we can conclusively tell which of the two it is, but I think that just deciding that nobody in India can be horrified by a crime of this extreme magnitude is a very narrow-minded approach.

The people who are protesting this and asking for the death penalty for these guys (which I don't agree with - but it does show that these people condemn the crime) are Indians too. Are they too secretly assholes who secretly wouldn't mind so much if only this hadn't been publicized?