Do fundies believe in ghosts? Do you?

[Minerva]

On the topic of alternative healthcare, I think there's useful stuff there, but I define "alt" as anything that's not a pharmaceutical compound or medical procedure, whereas others seem to define it as anything that hasn't been proven. I've heard of doctors suggesting natural remedies instead of writing prescriptions, when said natural remedies have been proven to a reasonable degree of course. I think it's important not to discount something just because it's traditional medicine - some of the stuff was bunk, but some of it worked even if they couldn't explain how (really, though, we don't fully understand how a lot of modern medicine works). That's not to say the mystique surrounding traditional medicine these days is reasonable either, they were only right about some things, and we know they were right about those because they've stood up to testing.

If it's been tested and shown to work better than a placebo, I'd go for it, realizing of course that just because it's been shown to work better than a placebo doesn't mean it'll work for me. If I had tried everything, I might go for something that had not yet been tested but seemed reasonable enough. I have a pretty good bullshit meter, I think I could weed out the obvious wastes of time.

I have this theory that some things have a stronger placebo effect than others. Like if you're prescribed a run of the mill, mundane pain killer, you expect it to work, but you're not overly excited about it. Whereas if you're told the treatment you just started is the miraculous, unsung hero of pain management, you'll be expecting a miracle and your body may react more. Which is a good thing in a way, because you'll be feeling less pain without taking anything, but if you're being promised a miracle, it's because you're giving money to a scam artist. And then what happens when you realize it was just the placebo effect? Does it go away?

[Maul the Koala]

To carry on with browngrl's train of thought. I'm a graduate student right now. My project is looking at a complete overhaul at a specific treatment. The recommendations for this treatment were based on one study done almost 40 years ago. There has been no questioning the treatment until recently. I barely have anything in my literature review. It's fun.

A lot of mental health research is hit or miss. You'll see a few studies that will conclusde a particular treatment is effective. Then you'll have a systematic review that will conclude the treatment was no better than placebo once the result from all the studies are pooled. A lot of drugs in mental health are used off-label as well, which makes things even more fun.

One thing one of my profs pointed out is that it is extremely hard to replicate most medical studies. So we're still stabbing in the dark medically. And as browngrl pointed out, you're more likely to get funding for looking at a big drug rather than something readily available and cheap. People don't like funding treatments where their investment probably won't pay off. A lot of medical researchers end up swallowing their pride and doing this massive drug studies because they pay so well, but it then consumes your research practice. It's a vicious cycle.

[rock_girl]

Naturopath degree does not equal MD, so while it may be misleading that she qualifies herself as a general practitioner, if she doesn't also have a medical degree, it's unfair to use that practitioner as an example of a fallible MD. Because she is not an MD.

I think Browngirl's point originally anyway, was that conventional medicine IS fallible - the scientific method is not as perfect as some people like to believe. (And being skeptical of new findings is good, in a way - it keeps us from blindly falling for anything new that comes up - but like she pointed out it can also lead to delays in advances of knowledge/treatment.)

I would however be hard-pressed to say supporting patients who choose alternative medicine by giving them honest feedback (whether that is I think it is harmful or I don't think it has anything besides a placebo effect but there haven't been studies shown that it's harmful, etc). and guiding them to any available information (such as regarding drug interactions) automatically makes someone a bad doctor. My personal definition of a bad doctor is someone who does not respect their patients' wishes/autonomy... just based on personal experience. And no that is not all doctors. But giving honest feedback about alternative medicine without outright dismissing it because it's not conventional medicine would not make someone a bad doctor IMO, just someone with a different perspective on the breadth of western medicine, maybe.

I just don't think all of this stuff should be outlawed or given huge restrictions outright just because you had bad experiences with it. From what I have heard from many docs, a lot of alt med falls into the hasn't been proven to do anything, but hasn't been proven to harm either category, and I know a lot of people who do things that I'd probably place in that category. I might not think they work, but they do and haven't experienced any side effects so it's not my place to judge. And like I said before, it's not like people aren't aware it's not conventional medicine.

I'd like to think this country is not stupid enough to fund naturopath degrees, but as it turns out, I'm wrong. There are degrees in quackery at a number of low ranking universities. Well, I guess they have to lure students somehow, and a dodgy law faculty isn't going to cut it. At any rate, the doctor is not a naturopath (although I imagine she's studied it), she's a general practitioner, a real live md who's figured out that $85 for a 30 minute consult is not as lucrative as $350 for an hour long consult which then has additional fees tacked on when you're forced to use her choice of pathologist and pushed to buy homeopathic formulas.

And yes, conventional medicine is fallible. It fails often, but it's still better than chanting and coloured water.

There's plenty of alt med that doesn't harm. Reiki does absolutely nothing, and homeopathy can boast the same benefit. But that doesn't mean the practitioners are conducting their sessions without adding in their own twisted little view of the world free of charge. Suggesting that heavy metal toxicity is an issue, and homeopathic chelation (at a ridiculous cost) will cure a person of all their ills is a big one. Pushing patients to go off their meds because apparently you need faith for their potions to work, and you can't have much faith if you're still swallowing pills pushed by big pharma. Repeating vaccination lies, hiv denialism, the old 'chemo doesn't help, it just makes you sicker' canard. These people are doing real damage, even if you don't believe that they're fleecing the poor and taking advantage of the ill. If they were forced to admit up front to their customers that what they're selling is nothing more than an expensive placebo, it would take the edge off a lot of their claims.

[rock_girl]

To carry on with browngrl's train of thought. I'm a graduate student right now. My project is looking at a complete overhaul at a specific treatment. The recommendations for this treatment were based on one study done almost 40 years ago. There has been no questioning the treatment until recently. I barely have anything in my literature review. It's fun.

A lot of mental health research is hit or miss. You'll see a few studies that will conclusde a particular treatment is effective. Then you'll have a systematic review that will conclude the treatment was no better than placebo once the result from all the studies are pooled. A lot of drugs in mental health are used off-label as well, which makes things even more fun.

One thing one of my profs pointed out is that it is extremely hard to replicate most medical studies. So we're still stabbing in the dark medically. And as browngrl pointed out, you're more likely to get funding for looking at a big drug rather than something readily available and cheap. People don't like funding treatments where their investment probably won't pay off. A lot of medical researchers end up swallowing their pride and doing this massive drug studies because they pay so well, but it then consumes your research practice. It's a vicious cycle.

I don't dispute any of this. My argument is that while what we have is not perfect, not by a long shot, it's still light years ahead of what alt med has to offer.

[Maul the Koala]

I don't dispute any of this. My argument is that while what we have is not perfect, not by a long shot, it's still light years ahead of what alt med has to offer.

Not really. There's a lot of research right now being done in alternative medicine. I know quite a few of my classmates will be looking into alternative therapies for their research projects. I've worked on studies looking at alternative medicine as well.

I'm losing more and more faith in the current medical research the further along in my studies I get personally. There's a lot of internal and external pressure to find results that are statistically significant (medical journals don't like to publish studies that won't have a significant outcome). So a lot of research is just left on the cutting room floor. If it's not going to be published, why bother? If it's not a 'medical' related outcome, a lot of journals don't like that either. It's slowly changing though, fingers crossed.

[rock_girl]

Not really. There's a lot of research right now being done in alternative medicine. I know quite a few of my classmates will be looking into alternative therapies for their research projects. I've worked on studies looking at alternative medicine as well.

I'm losing more and more faith in the current medical research the further along in my studies I get personally. There's a lot of internal and external pressure to find results that are statistically significant (medical journals don't like to publish studies that won't have a significant outcome). So a lot of research is just left on the cutting room floor. If it's not going to be published, why bother? If it's not a 'medical' related outcome, a lot of journals don't like that either. It's slowly changing though, fingers crossed.

But that doesn't suggest a problem with research and medicine so much as it does a problem with the journals.

If the research shows a genuine benefit, and treatment is carried out without any of the silliness usually surrounding alt med, it sounds perfectly reasonable.

[Maul the Koala]

But that doesn't suggest a problem with research and medicine so much as it does a problem with the journals.

If the research shows a genuine benefit, and treatment is carried out without any of the silliness usually surrounding alt med, it sounds perfectly reasonable.

Medical journals are the crux of how professionals practice medicine. Period.

[Deleted03]

I have had discussions with my pediatrician in France and my mom has too. She used homeopathy for me to stop having constant otitis (I mean having an ear infection 10 days after the last one stopped) and even if our pediatrician was against it he never showed the disrespect rock girl is showing here. (btw it worked I had another infection and that's it. it was a year long treatment).

The homeopatician we saw is also a doctor. Now as a 25 yo vegan I can't help but agree with him that cow milk is can be harmful, that it is not digested well enough by most, and that rec are too high for children.

Rock girl, not only are you more disrespectful than most doctors about alternative practices, but you are also arguing with people in the medical profession about the medical system of knowledge and telling them what is and what is not science. I think that you are showing incredible lack of knowledge on the subject, an incredible small mindedness, and great disrespect.

By the way, when alternative medicines tell you it might not work, it's not because they rely on the placebo effect, it's because one treatment might work for a person, and not for another. Example: a friend of mine has two daughters. One responds to acupunture well, the other does not. But the other responds well to homeopathy. So she takes her daughters to the practice that works best with them. And if only medical treatments worked, that's what she would do.

[SoybeanQueen]

I'm an atheist, forced to go to fundie lite churches, and Southern Baptists most certainly do not believe in ghosts or paranormal "occult" stuff. They disbelieve.so strongly I got flak just for reading Harry Potter books.

Some Southern Baptists. I'm Southern Baptist and one of my kids dressed up as Hermione last year for Halloween.

As for the ghosts, I can't say I've seen any convincing evidence, but I'm open to the idea that ghosts are real. Slightly related note - I dressed up as a ghost caught on tape YouTube video for Halloween this year. I had a big piece of foam board with a rectangle cut out for my face, and I made up a video description and misspelled, angry comments on the front of the board. It was fun.

[Beeks]

Rock girl, I understand how much personal experience can shape our opinions and it sounds like you had a really bad experience with alternative medicines?

They aren't all like that. I live in WA where naturopathic medicine is regulated really well - naturopaths here can prescribe the same medicine as MDs - and they have done some great work for our family. Both of my sons see a naturopathic pediatrician and my older son saw a naturopathic specialist for a couple of years who really helped us with his various food allergies.

My older son was also seen by lots of MDs and therapists and educators during these years because of his developmental and they all very happily worked together with our naturopathic doctors.

Yes, there are a lot of quacks out there in the world and people do need to be incredibly careful about who they trust for their medical care, but there are a lot of really wonderful alternative practitioners as well. I think the key is good regulation, which we are very lucky to have here.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

Sorry for riffles, on the phone :)

[freejoytoo]

How is being critical about the paranormal more offensive than being critical about religion? I find it a little hypocritical that people have no isse with calling God a sky fairy but leap to the defence when ghosts are called a product of the mind.

[emmiedahl]

How is being critical about the paranormal more offensive than being critical about religion? I find it a little hypocritical that people have no isse with calling God a sky fairy but leap to the defence when ghosts are called a product of the mind.

I don't think it is, not at all.

But to call people selling alternative services thieves is an entirely different matter.

[JesusFightClub]

"Bad Science" by Dr Ben Goldacre. This is all I will say on the subject of homeopathy. If you haven't read it, you should.

[freejoytoo]

I don't think it is, not at all.

But to call people selling alternative services thieves is an entirely different matter.

Oh, I totally agree on that, and I also don't think all alternative therapies are rubbish or that pyschics are liars. I just find it interesting that no one is criticised for being atheist but some think it's closeminded not to believe in the paranormal. Personally I am more open to the idea of the paranormal than the existence of God, but anyway.

[Minerva]

Some Southern Baptists. I'm Southern Baptist and one of my kids dressed up as Hermione last year for Halloween.

As for the ghosts, I can't say I've seen any convincing evidence, but I'm open to the idea that ghosts are real. Slightly related note - I dressed up as a ghost caught on tape YouTube video for Halloween this year. I had a big piece of foam board with a rectangle cut out for my face, and I made up a video description and misspelled, angry comments on the front of the board. It was fun.

That costume has earned you my deepest admiration. I just wanted you to know.

[SoybeanQueen]

That costume has earned you my deepest admiration. I just wanted you to know.

Yesterday I saw a pic on Facebook of the same general costume idea, but they placed the cutout part over their crotch and were supposed to be Chat Roulette. I swear I laughed for 10 minutes straight.

[pixydust]

I've never seen a ghost but I believe in them 100%. Oh and Clibby is legit.

Clibby is 100% legit! She was insanely helpful to me with a ghost-in-the-basement issue that I couldn't handle myself. she's like a freaking rocks star!

[StarrieEyedKat]

Oh, I totally agree on that, and I also don't think all alternative therapies are rubbish or that pyschics are liars. I just find it interesting that no one is criticised for being atheist but some think it's closeminded not to believe in the paranormal. Personally I am more open to the idea of the paranormal than the existence of God, but anyway.

I haven't seen anyone saying that they think everyone should believe in ghosts, unless I missed something. I've only seen people get upset because they were insulted by some of rock_girl's posts. And while I agree that what she initially said is no different than people referring to god as a sky fairy, I would never tell a Christian that they shouldn't be offended if their god is made fun of. If I mock god and insult one of our members, then they have every right to say "Hey, that's rude" and I can react however, that's basically what happened here.

[JoanHolloway]

I'm on the fence about ghosts. I'm a fairly skeptical person, but I have had several experiences that I can't explain...so I'm definitely open to the possibility.

Last year I was in Gettysburg with my ex-fiancee and we were staying in a hotel not too far from the battlefield. The hotel itself was new, but the restaurant was in a 200-year-old house that would have been present during the battle. When we went in for breakfast, my ex noticed the porch light flicker and go out, but didn't think anything of it. We walked inside, and though there were tons of people around I just felt super uneasy. And then I was hit with the most horrible smell of my life. It was like someone had just vomited...so much so that I was looking around the floor to see the tell-tale puddle of puke, but there was nothing. I didn't want to make a scene because it was a crowded restaurant, so I tried to breathe through my mouth, which didn't help a whole lot. As we walked further into the restaurant the smell got worse. I was wondering if maybe someone had puked in the vents and it was circulating, but when I looked around at all the people dining in the restaurant, none of them seemed bother. I tried to make eye contact with my ex to let her know I couldn't stand the smell any longer. She got the hint, or so I thought, and we walked back outside.

As soon as we did, I started ranting about the smell and how horrendous it was and wondered how people could eat whilst breathing it in. My ex gave me a look and explained that she had not smelled anything. Now, this smell was so horrible and oppressive that I don't know how you could NOT have smelled it.

Anyway, long story long, it turns out that back during the civil war Gettysburg was not the nicest smelling place to be. In fact, according to one of my ex's books, the smell of vomit and rotting flesh was constant around the town for ages after the battle was over. And, you guessed it, many people who visit Gettysburg have reported having ghostly experiences, including experiencing that particular odour.

[snarkbillie]

RE: homeopathy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

[Imora]

Man I always miss all the fun. :(

I think the thing I find the most horrific about this is the blatant 'copywriteding'. How can she get away with it?

I will chime in and say that I don't believe in the paranormal. I don't disbelieve it either. I simply have not been able to gather enough evidence on either side to formulate a 'belief'. Then again I've never really gone out of my way to attempt to. (Except for watching the odd show on Discovery.) I would never say that anybody who does it for a job is in the wrong. They believe it, and the people paying for the service believe it. So who am I to tell them they are wrong? They have evidence that I don't.

Actually I would like very much if somebody who does do it for a job would provide me with some of their evidence - anecdotal or otherwise. Might be nice not be sitting on that fence. :)

[BelieveinScience]

Slightly OT maybe question.

For those who use alternative medicine or know people who are successful with it are the conditions chronic illnesses? Have you ever heard of people using alternative medicine to fix congenital defects and been successful with it?

Just curious because I went to see a chiropractor after my saw something online about chiros fixing hiatal hernias(stomach up past diaphragm), which I have. The chiropractor told me that he was 80-90 percent confident he could fix the hernia. Hernia was never fixed had it confirmed by an EGD when symptoms were getting worse.

[keeperrox]

I think of ghosts in the same way I think of mythology and religion. We seek answers for things simply by human nature, and we come up with answers that seem plausible to us, sometimes by research and indisputable proof and other times by faith. To the ancient Greeks, it was all powerful men and women who lived on a mountain in the sky and fucked with the people down below. To the early Jews, it was a vengeful man who brought horrors upon the ones he was supposed to have created. To the early Christians, it was a man who was nailed up and tortured to death in front of scores of people, only to walk the Earth again three days later.

Just as when I sat in Sunday School and was told that the Holy Spirit was present and asked, "Don't you feel it, too?" when I absolutely never did, I've also never felt the presence of paranormal activity (and I currently live in a pre-Civil War era house, in a Civil War town, less than 30 miles from Gettysburg, where I've been countless times). If ghosts are what you believe in, so be it, just don't expect me to believe it, too.

[princessjo1988]

It is interesting - my mother has had 'visitations' all throughout her life - one example was when she was nursing in remote Australia - she saw an aboriginal man with a baby standing at the end of her bed - when she tried to talk to him, he disappeared. The next morning, she was telling the other nurses about her experience, when a patient yelled out that his tray was moving of its own accord - and it was... Even when she was a 'fundie' she was still a 'believer'.

As for me, I am a cynic, but I have had experiences which can't be explained. I always know if a home has had a 'bad' event occur in/nearby before someone tells me about it. My mother's experiences, combined with her absolute certainty that they happened, can't be denied.

Frankly, I don't think we can explain everything. I am happy to remain open to the idea until proof is found that there is a non-spooky explanation.

[mockingbird]

Slightly OT maybe question.

For those who use alternative medicine or know people who are successful with it are the conditions chronic illnesses? Have you ever heard of people using alternative medicine to fix congenital defects and been successful with it?

Just curious because I went to see a chiropractor after my saw something online about chiros fixing hiatal hernias(stomach up past diaphragm), which I have. The chiropractor told me that he was 80-90 percent confident he could fix the hernia. Hernia was never fixed had it confirmed by an EGD when symptoms were getting worse.

The people I know use alternative medication for chronic conditions, mostly chronic pain. I know doctors who recommend acupuncture for chronic pain and stress and people who use chiropractors and massage for back pain. One of my friends does a lot of yoga and meditation for stress, not even sure if that is considered alternative anymore.

ETA: I also know people who take supplements like St. John's Wort for depression and feel it is effective. What I have heard from medical professionals though is that it can interact with psych drugs or other meds that typically interact with psych drugs, because it is similar to an antidepressant. (I could be wrong, but I think that was the root of some antidepressants - a lot of medications (like aspirin) have their roots in being derived and purified from an original natural remedy.) I asked my doctor once out of curiosity and I believe she thought it could be effective since it has a similar effect, but would recommend an FDA-approved medication because of better control over what ingredients are involved, dosing, etc. I would imagine she would also want to know that a patient was depressed so she could monitor them and watch for signs of suicide or switch meds or refer to a psychiatrist if what they were taking wasn't working. I think for the people I know who use supplements like that, they will openly admit they are taking it for depression, but feel more comfortable with a "natural" remedy because it seems safer (because it is natural) to them. Maybe there is some stigma against taking psych meds or they just "don't like taking drugs" at all.