Do fundies believe in ghosts? Do you?

[rock_girl]

100% what she said.

Not to mention, I have given at least 200 readings on FJ for FREE. If I am going to a reading party and working for 5 straight hours, I expect to be paid, just like you would if you worked for 5 hours.

But I couldn't work selling something that I knew wasn't real. It's why I'm not a minister of religion or an Amway rep.

[Kitty]

I'm not here to say anyone is silly or stupid for believing in the paranormal, but because i cant copy and paste links on my phone, I suggest that everyone in this thread Google infrasound. It's not a widely known phenomenon, but its a good scientific explanation for a lot of so-called paranormal activity/sightings. It can't actually be heard by humans, but it does amazing things to the human brain to make people wonder about ghosts and all that.

I knew a guy on another forum who flipped his lid one day about it, but other posters who were more science-minded brought it up. It pretty much killed my belief in the paranormal.

[Peas n carrots]

10 years ago, I had quite the crazy schedule. I was working a full time job, a part time job and taking classes part time. I had literally been at the full time job a few days, and as I was broke did not have a cell phone. I did not have a phone extension assigned to me at my new job yet, so my family had no way of contacting me at the time.

After working both jobs, I drove home to my parents house - where I was living at the time - and pulled up front. Everything was the same as it always was...the lights in the living room were on, my parents and sisters cars were parked in the driveway. All of a sudden, this feeling came over me and I knew that my grandpa had died. I had a very close relationship to my grandpa, and he was a surrogate father after my real dad took off when I was s toddler. I can't explain how or why I knew, but I just did.

So I got out of the car, went into the house and my mom and dad were sitting in the living room. They gave me the news thr my grandpa had in fact died that morning.

I'm totally open to the possibility that perhaps there is a perfectly reasonable explanation within the realm of science today for what happened. If there is, I haven't found it out. But it was certainly a strange happening that I have never experienced before or since.

[meda]

But I couldn't work selling something that I knew wasn't real. It's why I'm not a minister of religion or an Amway rep.

So it's one thing to say that you don't believe in ghosts or psychic phenomena and even to say that you find such things ridiculous. It is also a perfectly valid observation to note that there are scam artists out there who take advantage of the gullible.

It is another thing entirely to accuse posters here of perpetrating a fraud. Which is what you have done here by saying that cibby is selling something she does not believe to be real. I don't think your in a position to make that accusation.

[JesusFightClub]

A tough question :)

Personally, I am strongly inclined to believe there are not ghosts but there may be aspects of the human mind we don't quite understand yet. Or even aspects of space and time we don't understand yet. I do not now believe in *spirit* but neither do I believe people who feel something...beyond...are automatically delusional or doing a con trick. It's like an incomplete jigsaw with pieces hidden round about a 20 storey building. One day we might get the picture but it's a long way off.

Perhaps some people got parts of the picture and some got other ones...

[rock_girl]

So it's one thing to say that you don't believe in ghosts or psychic phenomena and even to say that you find such things ridiculous. It is also a perfectly valid observation to note that there are scam artists out there who take advantage of the gullible.

It is another thing entirely to accuse posters here of perpetrating a fraud. Which is what you have done here by saying that cibby is selling something she does not believe to be real. I don't think your in a position to make that accusation.

Fair's fair, you'll note that the original post that she agreed with labelled me as having a closed mind while pitying me for not experiencing the wonders of the paranormal. While I appreciate others' pity when it comes with biscuits and little fairy cakes, it is the height of condescension to pity another person for not sharing your beliefs. It's on par with saying sweetly to an atheist who's rebuffed your attempts at conversion 'I'll pray for you'.

And yes, I do believe that taking money for psychic, astrology, tarot, or other similar services is wrong. I also believe that religions that impose a fee for service structure (tithing, for instance) are wrong.

[meda]

Somewhat different actually. Calling someone close minded is not quite the same as calling someone a criminal or a fraud. If people feel they have received value in exchange for consideration, why does that bother you? Should yoga instructors and massage therapists also not be paid if they assert a spiritual component to what they do?

[emmiedahl]

Somewhat different actually. Calling someone close minded is not quite the same as calling someone a criminal or a fraud. If people feel they have received value in exchange for consideration, why does that bother you? Should yoga instructors and massage therapists also not be paid if they assert a spiritual component to what they do?

I can assure you the psychics here at freejinger are not thieves. Clibbyjo has given me free readings and a Wiccan member has done divination for me. When they offer services for free to members they are hardly robbing someone. Obviously they believe in their own abilities if they are doing pro bono work as a public service.

I can say that the Wiccan member and clibbyjo both had access to information I have never given them. They knew thing, very specific things, about people I never discuss in detail. So I know that there is something going on there, whether you want to call it psychic or not. Of course no one has to take my anecdata as a proven fact, but I have been to some fraudulent psychics and there is a difference between them and clibbyjo.

[rock_girl]

Somewhat different actually. Calling someone close minded is not quite the same as calling someone a criminal or a fraud. If people feel they have received value in exchange for consideration, why does that bother you? Should yoga instructors and massage therapists also not be paid if they assert a spiritual component to what they do?

But I'm not saying anything that isn't the truth.

I'm bothered because often people using these services lack the sophistication to understand that they're being taken for a ride. Or else they're desperate unbelievers who are in such a troubled place they're willing to put aside their doubts and try anything that works. I'm bothered because as someone with a chronic illness who has been in the position of being scammed by alternative healing types in a fit of desperation, I know what it's like to be so low that you'll try anything. I'm bothered because it's beyond cruel to take money from the poor, the sick, the desperate for a service that is essentially nothing more than a few kind words.

[emmiedahl]

But I'm not saying anything that isn't the truth.

I'm bothered because often people using these services lack the sophistication to understand that they're being taken for a ride. Or else they're desperate unbelievers who are in such a troubled place they're willing to put aside their doubts and try anything that works. I'm bothered because as someone with a chronic illness who has been in the position of being scammed by alternative healing types in a fit of desperation, I know what it's like to be so low that you'll try anything. I'm bothered because it's beyond cruel to take money from the poor, the sick, the desperate for a service that is essentially nothing more than a few kind words.

Not all alternative medicine is crap.

It's a good analogy, actually, because just as in the psychic business, there are a lot of frauds and also a lot of people doing some real good.

[rock_girl]

I can assure you the psychics here at freejinger are not thieves. Clibbyjo has given me free readings and a Wiccan member has done divination for me. When they offer services for free to members they are hardly robbing someone. Obviously they believe in their own abilities if they are doing pro bono work as a public service.

I can say that the Wiccan member and clibbyjo both had access to information I have never given them. They knew thing, very specific things, about people I never discuss in detail. So I know that there is something going on there, whether you want to call it psychic or not. Of course no one has to take my anecdata as a proven fact, but I have been to some fraudulent psychics and there is a difference between them and clibbyjo.

I'm not against clibbyjo's readings here at FJ. If everyone's happy and no money's changing hands, what's the harm? I do object to people charging for psychic services, though, which says she's done.

Since we're here, I have exactly the same feelings toward alt med if there are any reiki practising homoepaths who want to disagree with me.

[rock_girl]

Not all alternative medicine is crap.

It's a good analogy, actually, because just as in the psychic business, there are a lot of frauds and also a lot of people doing some real good.

I will disagree with you on that one. While there are a few studies showing limited efficacy of acupuncture, treatments carried out by alt med practitioners are done so because they don't work. As my current neuro is fond of saying "if it worked, I'd be using it".

[meda]

But I'm not saying anything that isn't the truth.

I'm bothered because often people using these services lack the sophistication to understand that they're being taken for a ride. Or else they're desperate unbelievers who are in such a troubled place they're willing to put aside their doubts and try anything that works. I'm bothered because as someone with a chronic illness who has been in the position of being scammed by alternative healing types in a fit of desperation, I know what it's like to be so low that you'll try anything. I'm bothered because it's beyond cruel to take money from the poor, the sick, the desperate for a service that is essentially nothing more than a few kind words.

But again, what proof to you have to back up your assertion that the people we are discussing are knowingly defrauding people? I don't understand how you can categorically state that someone must not believe in something simply because you don't believe in it. That is a pretty arrogant position to take.

[emmiedahl]

I'm not against clibbyjo's readings here at FJ. If everyone's happy and no money's changing hands, what's the harm? I do object to people charging for psychic services, though, which says she's done.

Since we're here, I have exactly the same feelings toward alt med if there are any reiki practising homoepaths who want to disagree with me.

If people are going to hire a psychic, why not someone like clibbyjo who actually has a gift?

And I have had reiki massage.

Meta-analyses of studies done on acupuncture find that it works better than a placebo (http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article ... id=1357513) for pain and nausea management, btw. Yoga helps with stress and anxiety. Just because something is foreign and old does not mean it is wrong. I am sure there are many charlatans in the alternative medical field but few forms of alternative therapy have been studied enough to call their practitioners thieves.

[rock_girl]

But again, what proof to you have to back up your assertion that the people we are discussing are knowingly defrauding people? I don't understand how you can categorically state that someone must not believe in something simply because you don't believe in it. That is a pretty arrogant position to take.

You do realise the bolded is the same argument used by creationists, don't you?

As for theft, while I think there are psychics who genuinely believe in their own abilities, you'll note that none of them have put those abilities to the test and walked away with James Randi's money. Even if you can't personally use the million dollars, there are plenty of charities that would happily take it off your hands. To me that says that all psychics must hold doubts about what they're selling.

[emmiedahl]

You do realise the bolded is the same argument used by creationists, don't you?

As for theft, while I think there are psychics who genuinely believe in their own abilities, you'll note that none of them have put those abilities to the test and walked away with James Randi's money. Even if you can't personally use the million dollars, there are plenty of charities that would happily take it off your hands. To me that says that all psychics must hold doubts about what they're selling.

I only found out about this tonight, so I doubt many psychics know about it.

And creationists would not be snarkworthy if they believed it in their own homes and did not want it interfering in real science and education. Last time I checked, there was no attempt to introduce paranormal studies into kindergartens.

[bellicosebroad]

I actually do believe in ghosts or "spirits," what have you. My feeling is that the "energy" that is you (your "soul," maybe?) has to go somewhere when you die. Maybe some souls either hang around because they want to or get "stuck" somehow and can't move onto whatever the next phase is. (I'm a non-denominational homespun spiritualist and believe in reincarnation personally, but am smart enough to realize that that doesn't give me any true answers, just a personal belief system.)

I've had a couple of experiences that have reinforced that belief. When I was 10, my maternal grandmother died suddenly and I missed her terribly. I was just sitting there by myself and feeling horrible just after the funeral when I suddenly and unmistakably was surrounded by "her" smell (she kept rose sachets in her drawers and the smell was always with her). That was almost 40 years ago and I still remember it. I just knew it was her, no question, and that she was trying to make me feel better -- and it worked, because I was instantly comforted.

The second happened after my paternal grandfather died when I was 41. I was feeling bereft even though he'd had a good long life (he was 99 and active up until the last six weeks). Once of the things I've always been able to do to cope with loss is to kind of "connect" with the deceased person or pet and just get a sense that they're fine, that this is part of life and everything's okay despite the loss -- *I* might be grieving, but my grief is my own, for my loss, and not because the deceased person or pet is in a bad place, or whatever. Try as I might, I couldn't do that with him. But then I walked into my grandparents' house a month after he died and he was *everywhere.* Whoosh! It was like walking into a cocoon of his presence. And I just thought, "Oh, I get it. Your place is with Grandma (they were married for 75 years, together 78, and just always 'one')." And I swear their house felt like he was still there and just about to come walking around the corner until she died, six years later. That unique and comforting feeling is gone now; it's like he waited for her and when she died, he went with her. :-)

[meda]

Actually the creationist argument is something more along the lines of you can't prove God didn't create the earth, therefor he did. I am simply pointing out that it is perfectly possible for someone to sincerely believe in something that you do not believe in. Stating a belief that you don't agree with does not automatically make them a fraud. I thing creationists are wrong. Just because I think they are wrong does not mean I thinks they are insincere.

[rock_girl]

If people are going to hire a psychic, why not someone like clibbyjo who actually has a gift?

And I have had reiki massage.

Meta-analyses of studies done on acupuncture find that it works better than a placebo (http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article ... id=1357513) for pain and nausea management, btw. Yoga helps with stress and anxiety. Just because something is foreign and old does not mean it is wrong. I am sure there are many charlatans in the alternative medical field but few forms of alternative therapy have been studied enough to call their practitioners thieves.

I didn't realise yoga was classed as alternative medicine. I think at this point it's generally accepted that yoga (well, basic yoga) is a gentle workout well suited to those who can't endure high impact, high endurance exercise. Exercise helps manage mental health issues. I don't dispute acupuncture's limited effects in certain cases although after spending close to $600 on treatments I did find that it was utterly useless in dealing with my near constant nausea. As for other forms of alternative medicine - I'd be thrilled to hear that something old and exotic worked. Given that treatment for my illness is limited to medication and the occasional invasive procedure, even having something new in my arsenal to manage the symptoms would be a godsend. But the fact remains that at the moment there's no evidence showing alternative treatments to be safe, and that my doctors have plenty of anecdotal evidence of patients taking themselves off conventional treatment for alternative ones and going downhill fast. Let's not forget that alt med practitioners are often responsible for spreading vaccination lies.

I just can't see any difference between psychics, sorry. At this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

[rock_girl]

I only found out about this tonight, so I doubt many psychics know about it.

And creationists would not be snarkworthy if they believed it in their own homes and did not want it interfering in real science and education. Last time I checked, there was no attempt to introduce paranormal studies into kindergartens.

Oh, I imagine that sort of thing is big news in psychic circles. It's free money for anyone good enough to fool the panel.

I'd snark on creationists with or without their dumbing down kids agenda. They'd still be raising their own children to be utterly daft.

[Deleted03]

I can assure you the psychics here at freejinger are not thieves. Clibbyjo has given me free readings and a Wiccan member has done divination for me. When they offer services for free to members they are hardly robbing someone. Obviously they believe in their own abilities if they are doing pro bono work as a public service.

I can say that the Wiccan member and clibbyjo both had access to information I have never given them. They knew thing, very specific things, about people I never discuss in detail. So I know that there is something going on there, whether you want to call it psychic or not. Of course no one has to take my anecdata as a proven fact, but I have been to some fraudulent psychics and there is a difference between them and clibbyjo.

+1

I believe in science, I believe there is global warming and I believe that the calculations and the current studies also say everyone has to be vegetarian by 2050 to be able to feed everyone. But I also know that science and medicine did not cure me when I had a skin fungus infection, that I got cured by the woman in our village who cures skin ailments. I know that my mom took me there 4 years before for another thing and she told us right out she did not know what it is and she could not assure us it would go away (and this time it did not - the only cure was to take each pimple out manually and use dry ice for those on my eyes). She never asked for money, people would just give what they could. The doctor I saw never complained that I went there. He had nothing else to say than it worked where he failed. I don't care if it was placebo (but please explain why all the other treatments that were pursued first did not work), I don't care if it was through the catholic God, or if she was working other kinds of magic (of course no one asks, she will give her gift when she dies). Fact is, it went away.

I firmly believe that science will never explain every single thing. I believe the human mind is inherently limited and some things we will never know.

I am also Pagan, and I believe there are multiple gods and there are spirits. I don't push my agenda on anyone, I don't go around promoting laws or a way of life. If people want to spend money for readings it is also their choice, and Clibby is the real deal. She is also extremely helpful for anything paranormal related.

I'm not against tithing, I'm against forced tithing. When you sweep broad pictures you end up being wrong - saying that all people who offer readings (or cures) are crooks is a gross exaggeration.

[rock_girl]

Actually the creationist argument is something more along the lines of you can't prove God didn't create the earth, therefor he did. I am simply pointing out that it is perfectly possible for someone to sincerely believe in something that you do not believe in. Stating a belief that you don't agree with does not automatically make them a fraud. I thing creationists are wrong. Just because I think they are wrong does not mean I thinks they are insincere.

I should have been more clear. It's the same argument used by creationists when their beliefs are challenged.

[emmiedahl]

I didn't realise yoga was classed as alternative medicine. I think at this point it's generally accepted that yoga (well, basic yoga) is a gentle workout well suited to those who can't endure high impact, high endurance exercise. Exercise helps manage mental health issues. I don't dispute acupuncture's limited effects in certain cases although after spending close to $600 on treatments I did find that it was utterly useless in dealing with my near constant nausea. As for other forms of alternative medicine - I'd be thrilled to hear that something old and exotic worked. Given that treatment for my illness is limited to medication and the occasional invasive procedure, even having something new in my arsenal to manage the symptoms would be a godsend. But the fact remains that at the moment there's no evidence showing alternative treatments to be safe, and that my doctors have plenty of anecdotal evidence of patients taking themselves off conventional treatment for alternative ones and going downhill fast. Let's not forget that alt med practitioners are often responsible for spreading vaccination lies.

I just can't see any difference between psychics, sorry. At this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

Until very recently, yoga was classified as alternative medicine and complete woo.

I don't think even 10% of the psychics out there are sincere people who are in it because of a special gift. And a lot of alternative medicine is completely unproven, in part because it is weird and foreign and how could the Japanese possibly know something about medicine that we brilliant Western folk don't? Nothing is proven until we set out to study it, so there is very much a buyer-beware thing going on with all things alternative. Osteopathic medicine was considered quackery until a few decades ago; then everyone realized that there was something to it, and studied it, and now DO's are just another type of physician.

We absolutely can agree to disagree. My first posts in this thread were defending people who don't believe in it. You have every right to mock it. I have good friends who make fun of my paranormal beliefs and view it as another bit of quirk in my personality. You have every right to call them thieves, and I have the same right to disagree.

[Renting with Raggles]

Couldn't you just turn this around and say that atheists are closed minded? Because if a religious person believes in something then it is closed minded to science or reason, according to some. But yet to others to not believe is closed minded to supernatural things. Maybe I am just seeing two sides to the same coin here, fundamentalism and hardcore atheism.

I don't doubt the veracity of people's experiences, but at the same time experiences don't demonstrate absolute proof. I agree that people should try to be respectful of others beliefs, in so far as those beliefs don't hurt others but expressing what you think shouldn't curtailed either.

Except scientists present tangible evidence, and atheists are being asked to accept other people's claims which they will not verify in the same manner.

Example :

Religious people used to claim that bubonic plague was caused by sin - it was God's punishment on humanity. They used arguments from the Bible to back up this claim.

Believers in the supernatural used to claim that bubonic plague was caused by misalignment of the planets, or by supernatural entities like the Plague Maiden, a ghost-like creature said to enter people's houses. They backed up this claim using arguments from their personal beliefs (astrology) and personal experience (people saw the Plague Maiden).

Scientists now claim that a bacteria in the gut of fleas is the cause of bubonic plague. But they back up their claim with mountains of peer-reviewed physical evidence, and anyone is welcome to test this claim in repeatable experiments.

Arguments, personal beliefs and personal experiences which are not repeatable are simply not equal to actual evidence; they never have been. It's not arrogance on the part of atheists and skeptics to fall back on the null hypothesis when presented with the former but not the latter, it's just good sense.

[bellicosebroad]

I should have been more clear. It's the same argument used by creationists when their beliefs are challenged.

No, it's not. With everyone here, the attitude is, "This is what *I* believe." No one here has said that psychic ability is a proven fact that everyone must believe in. The pushback comes, from what I can see, because you are saying that all psychics are bogus. That's your opinion, but you can no more prove THAT than psychic believers can prove the existence of psychic ability. Yet you expect everyone to come over to *your* way of thinking -- and that's exactly what creationists do, too.