Do fundies believe in ghosts? Do you?

[Deleted03]

Except scientists present tangible evidence, and atheists are being asked to accept other people's claims which they will not verify in the same manner.

Example :

Religious people used to claim that bubonic plague was caused by sin - it was God's punishment on humanity. They used arguments from the Bible to back up this claim.

Believers in the supernatural used to claim that bubonic plague was caused by misalignment of the planets, or by supernatural entities like the Plague Maiden, a ghost-like creature said to enter people's houses. They backed up this claim using arguments from their personal beliefs (astrology) and personal experience (people saw the Plague Maiden).

Scientists now claim that a bacteria in the gut of fleas is the cause of bubonic plague. But they back up their claim with mountains of peer-reviewed physical evidence, and anyone is welcome to test this claim in repeatable experiments.

Arguments, personal beliefs and personal experiences which are not repeatable are simply not equal to actual evidence; they never have been. It's not arrogance on the part of atheists and skeptics to fall back on the null hypothesis when presented with the former but not the latter, it's just good sense.

Except many will tell you that the way the tests are set up is biased towards a non-holistic understanding of medicine and of the human body.

[Boogalou]

I'm not against clibbyjo's readings here at FJ. If everyone's happy and no money's changing hands, what's the harm? I do object to people charging for psychic services, though, which says she's done.

Since we're here, I have exactly the same feelings toward alt med if there are any reiki practising homoepaths who want to disagree with me.

Now I have to jump to the other side of the debate. Sigh. What is wrong with charging money for offering a service? People are in no way obligated to hire clibbyjo or any other psychic, especially for what she has said she has done which is doing readings at parties. For sure there are some scammers out there, but it doesn't mean everyone who is part of the profession is a scammer. If the psychic believes and the people they are doing the reading for believe, I see no harm. I get that some people can be taken advantage of but people can be taken advantage of by so many people in so many different professions it doesn't mean everyone is taking advantage.

Just for the record, I am very on the fence about ghosts and the paranormal. If you had asked me this question a year or more ago I would have said that I believed 100%, but now I am not so sure. My main point here was that a belief in the paranormal and ghosts is really no different than a belief in God or other religious things and shouldn't really be treated as something off limits and some sort of sacred cow.

And Kitty, I have read about the stuff in your article that you posted, thanks for posting it. That was a big reason why my belief in this sort of stuff dropped from absolute to very shaky.

[bellicosebroad]

A narrow mind? Are you serious? I am open to whatever can be proved. I know I've mentioned more than once on here my love for the Greek pantheon; believe me, if there was proof of the Greek gods existing I'd be in like flynn with my sacrifices. No goat would be safe.

Do feel free to go and claim James Randi's million bucks. I will happily eat humble pie when your claims are proven.

Science is wonderful, but it is ever evolving and changing. Prior to about the mid-1800s, you'd have been one of those who laughed off the existence of germs and bacteria because although they could be "sensed," they could not yet be seen and therefore "proven" to exist. But they do, and they always did even before science could prove that they were there. ? So you laugh off things as silly just because you can't "prove" them? That seems very short sighted indeed.

[rock_girl]

Until very recently, yoga was classified as alternative medicine and complete woo.

I don't think even 10% of the psychics out there are sincere people who are in it because of a special gift. And a lot of alternative medicine is completely unproven, in part because it is weird and foreign and how could the Japanese possibly know something about medicine that we brilliant Western folk don't? Nothing is proven until we set out to study it, so there is very much a buyer-beware thing going on with all things alternative. Osteopathic medicine was considered quackery until a few decades ago; then everyone realized that there was something to it, and studied it, and now DO's are just another type of physician.

We absolutely can agree to disagree. My first posts in this thread were defending people who don't believe in it. You have every right to mock it. I have good friends who make fun of my paranormal beliefs and view it as another bit of quirk in my personality. You have every right to call them thieves, and I have the same right to disagree.

I know that yoga was considered a bit off and silly a while ago. But it is, ultimately, gentle exercise and a touch of meditation. You get the same from tai chi, or a quiet walk in the evening. Now that yoga has been repackaged as a gentle, low impact exercise the lazy among us not have more choice when it comes to not breaking out a sweat.

Not sure osteopathy has the same status here. I know that my health insurance includes osteopathic consults under the alternative medicine category which would mean it's not eligible for Medicare rebates. But yes, there's no reason that alternative practices can't be studied, shown to be effective and then lose the alternative label. I know that seeing a counsellor to deal with my illness has resulted in us coming up with a plan for proper nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress management, etc. When I was first diagnosed several years ago, seeing a counsellor was not even something considered by my neuros. Now they're in full agreement that counselling is a good thing, and that his suggestions should absolutely be part of my treatment. To me that is a good example of integrated medicine. We have new research and wider acceptance of older findings to thank for something as simple as regular exercise being part of a treatment plan for a neurological illness.

I can get behind that sort of attitude. And I do have to wonder how much of alternative medicine and spiritualist stuff is because there are patients who aren't getting the touchy feely love the want from the medical system. Obviously a consultant neuro who bills $490 an appointment isn't going to be able to deliver that sort of care when there are far more pressing issues, but there are other ways for it to be delivered without resorting to seeing a homeopath or tarot reader.

[rock_girl]

No, it's not. With everyone here, the attitude is, "This is what *I* believe." No one here has said that psychic ability is a proven fact that everyone must believe in. The pushback comes, from what I can see, because you are saying that all psychics are bogus. That's your opinion, but you can no more prove THAT than psychic believers can prove the existence of psychic ability. Yet you expect everyone to come over to *your* way of thinking -- and that's exactly what creationists do, too.

I can assure you that I have no interest in seeing people come over to my way of thinking. Who do I snark on then?

[emmiedahl]

I know that yoga was considered a bit off and silly a while ago. But it is, ultimately, gentle exercise and a touch of meditation. You get the same from tai chi, or a quiet walk in the evening. Now that yoga has been repackaged as a gentle, low impact exercise the lazy among us not have more choice when it comes to not breaking out a sweat.

Not sure osteopathy has the same status here. I know that my health insurance includes osteopathic consults under the alternative medicine category which would mean it's not eligible for Medicare rebates. But yes, there's no reason that alternative practices can't be studied, shown to be effective and then lose the alternative label. I know that seeing a counsellor to deal with my illness has resulted in us coming up with a plan for proper nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress management, etc. When I was first diagnosed several years ago, seeing a counsellor was not even something considered by my neuros. Now they're in full agreement that counselling is a good thing, and that his suggestions should absolutely be part of my treatment. To me that is a good example of integrated medicine. We have new research and wider acceptance of older findings to thank for something as simple as regular exercise being part of a treatment plan for a neurological illness.

I can get behind that sort of attitude. And I do have to wonder how much of alternative medicine and spiritualist stuff is because there are patients who aren't getting the touchy feely love the want from the medical system. Obviously a consultant neuro who bills $490 an appointment isn't going to be able to deliver that sort of care when there are far more pressing issues, but there are other ways for it to be delivered without resorting to seeing a homeopath or tarot reader.

I think you have osteopathic medicine mixed up with something else, because DOs are considered identical to an MD by Medicare, Medicaid, and all major insurance companies.

[rock_girl]

Now I have to jump to the other side of the debate. Sigh. What is wrong with charging money for offering a service? People are in no way obligated to hire clibbyjo or any other psychic, especially for what she has said she has done which is doing readings at parties. For sure there are some scammers out there, but it doesn't mean everyone who is part of the profession is a scammer. If the psychic believes and the people they are doing the reading for believe, I see no harm. I get that some people can be taken advantage of but people can be taken advantage of by so many people in so many different professions it doesn't mean everyone is taking advantage.

Just for the record, I am very on the fence about ghosts and the paranormal. If you had asked me this question a year or more ago I would have said that I believed 100%, but now I am not so sure. My main point here was that a belief in the paranormal and ghosts is really no different than a belief in God or other religious things and shouldn't really be treated as something off limits and some sort of sacred cow.

And Kitty, I have read about the stuff in your article that you posted, thanks for posting it. That was a big reason why my belief in this sort of stuff dropped from absolute to very shaky.

There's nothing wrong with selling people tarot readings and whatnot when they've the cash and they know it's all a bit of fun. If you're absolutely certain the other person is not going to miss the money and isn't going to take the predictions seriously, go for it, I guess. But you can't know for certain that what you're selling isn't going to harm someone. Just because there are plenty of professions out there with poorly behaved members doesn't mean we should condone that activity.

[rock_girl]

I think you have osteopathic medicine mixed up with something else, because DOs are considered identical to an MD by Medicare, Medicaid, and all major insurance companies.

Should have been more specific. Australian Medicare. The standard health insurer for most Australians.

http://www.hcf.com.au/healthinsurance/p ... ulticover/ here's my insurance, seems they've moved osteopathy and it's now in the same category as chiros and exercise phsyiologists. According to Wikipedia, the medical board (Australian Medical Association?) doesn't recognise the qualification.

[rock_girl]

Science is wonderful, but it is ever evolving and changing. Prior to about the mid-1800s, you'd have been one of those who laughed off the existence of germs and bacteria because although they could be "sensed," they could not yet be seen and therefore "proven" to exist. But they do, and they always did even before science could prove that they were there. ? So you laugh off things as silly just because you can't "prove" them? That seems very short sighted indeed.

Seriously? Prior to the mid-1800s I'd have been in a corset every day and wouldn't have dared to set foot in a lab so wouldn't have worried my pretty little head off about miasmas and whatnot. The times they are a changin'. I laugh off things as silly until they're proven. I have absolutely no beliefs and haven't since, probably, about primary school. If something can be proved, I will stop laughing it off as silly.

[smores]

There's nothing wrong with selling people tarot readings and whatnot when they've the cash and they know it's all a bit of fun. If you're absolutely certain the other person is not going to miss the money and isn't going to take the predictions seriously, go for it, I guess. But you can't know for certain that what you're selling isn't going to harm someone. Just because there are plenty of professions out there with poorly behaved members doesn't mean we should condone that activity.

I'm sorry, you're going to insult them yet again? I don't get it - you recognize that people can pay for what they wish and believe what they wish, but that doesn't mean you're going to bother to give other people's beliefs an ounce of respect? I see that you're rather new still, maybe you should have spent more time reading about how things are done here.

[smores]

Really, you laugh at them as silly until they're proven? Well what about the things we "proved" or accepted as fact that changed? For example, pluto being a planet. Do you just go back to laughing at yourself for being silly?

Now this is getting ridiculous. Yes, things change. That is no reason you should poke fun at others' beliefs "until they're proven." That's just ridiculous and rude.

[MissA]

I was a skeptic before I became an atheist. And while I hope I would be open to genuine supernatural phenomena, I "don't believe in spooks, I don't believe in spooks". (Cue Cowardly Lion)

:)

My impression is that people really want to believe. And I totally understand that: I would love to be able to communicate with the people I've lost (and I've not even had an unusually traumatic life). But in my professional career, I've found that when you look for a particular result, you will find that result. I gave up doing Tarot card readings (purely amateur, I never charged) because people were finding deep life-determining meaning in stuff that I was making up on the spot.

[rock_girl]

I'm sorry, you're going to insult them yet again? I don't get it - you recognize that people can pay for what they wish and believe what they wish, but that doesn't mean you're going to bother to give other people's beliefs an ounce of respect? I see that you're rather new still, maybe you should have spent more time reading about how things are done here.

Look, if we're allowed to mock believers and talk about their sky daddy doing his thing, why not spiritual types? And yes, if there is a poorly behaved lawyer out there I'm not going to accept that she's bilked her clients out of thousands via overcharging and swiping most of their compensation payouts. I'd want to see her dealt with by the appropriate board. There are plenty of people out there who lack the sophistication to understand what they're paying for, and plenty of people who are swayed by emotion into buying things they can't afford. Often these people are on low incomes. Why shouldn't I be outraged when someone who doesn't understand how spiritualism works hands over what is to them a significant portion of money? I have no idea about clibbyjo's customers, and whether or not they can afford her services, but given the number of psychic ads I see in trashy magazines I'm guessing that most believers aren't exactly flush.

[rock_girl]

Really, you laugh at them as silly until they're proven? Well what about the things we "proved" or accepted as fact that changed? For example, pluto being a planet. Do you just go back to laughing at yourself for being silly?

Now this is getting ridiculous. Yes, things change. That is no reason you should poke fun at others' beliefs "until they're proven." That's just ridiculous and rude.

You'll have to forgive me as I've never laughed at anything to do with astronomy. Yes, as hard as it is for you to understand, I lack a belief structure. Therefore I'm open to whatever can be proved. I've said before that I would absolutely eat humble pie were psychic abilities to be proved, and I'd be the first in line for Chinese medicine were any of the compounds used proven effective.

[emmiedahl]

rock_girl, you are allowed to mock anyone you wish here. I think most of us want a sacred-cow-free free jinger. There has been no attempt to silence you, but some people will disagree.

[bellicosebroad]

Seriously? Prior to the mid-1800s I'd have been in a corset every day and wouldn't have dared to set foot in a lab so wouldn't have worried my pretty little head off about miasmas and whatnot.

Seriously. Oh, my. You don't know about 1800s feminists like Elizabeth Blackwell, do you? They most certainly did worry their "pretty little heads" about those sorts of things and didn't buy into the patriarchal, woman shaming bunk.

[rock_girl]

rock_girl, you are allowed to mock anyone you wish here. I think most of us want a sacred-cow-free free jinger. There has been no attempt to silence you, but some people will disagree.

Oh, I've no doubt about that. It's fascinating to see how others view their beliefs.

[smores]

That's just it... I don't even really believe in psychic abilities, I have plenty of doubts about that. But I am certainly not going around and saying that people are crooks for a belief that harms no one. You sure do make a lot of assumptions about the "types" who visit psychics and the types of psychics there are out there. I think maybe you might be surprised if you stepped back from relying on some stereotypes based on the most inadequate evidence, anecdotal.

[Boogalou]

There's nothing wrong with selling people tarot readings and whatnot when they've the cash and they know it's all a bit of fun. If you're absolutely certain the other person is not going to miss the money and isn't going to take the predictions seriously, go for it, I guess. But you can't know for certain that what you're selling isn't going to harm someone. Just because there are plenty of professions out there with poorly behaved members doesn't mean we should condone that activity.

I never said we should condone those activities. I said that just because there are scammy people out there it does not mean everyone else is scammy.

[rock_girl]

Seriously. Oh, my. You don't know about 1800s feminists like Elizabeth Blackwell, do you? They most certainly did worry their "pretty little heads" about those sorts of things and didn't buy into the patriarchal, woman shaming bunk.

Unfortunately that wasn't the prevailing attitude at the time. There weren't many women who were privileged enough to be able to take on patriarchy, and of the few who weren't busy scrubbing and trying to keep out of the way of their husband's fists, the majority weren't in a position to make more than a peep. While it's nice to think that I, in that position, would have made a stand for my rights and those of other women, the reality is that like most of us I'd have played my part well and kept quiet.

[rock_girl]

That's just it... I don't even really believe in psychic abilities, I have plenty of doubts about that. But I am certainly not going around and saying that people are crooks for a belief that harms no one. You sure do make a lot of assumptions about the "types" who visit psychics and the types of psychics there are out there. I think maybe you might be surprised if you stepped back from relying on some stereotypes based on the most inadequate evidence, anecdotal.

Actually, I'm basing it on my own experience. I have a chronic illness, and desperate and low I have visited alt med practitioners despite dismissing them previously as quacks and scammers. I could afford to lose the money so it was nothing more than an exercise in having my hopes dashed, and given I've a reasonable support system even that wasn't damaging. But what about those on low incomes? With little family support and fewer friends? I've no doubt that a large number of people who look for ideas outside of reason are desperate and that taking money from desperate people for something that can never deliver is wrong.

[rock_girl]

I never said we should condone those activities. I said that just because there are scammy people out there it does not mean everyone else is scammy.

I think that if there were genuine psychics out there they'd have claimed the million dollar prize from James Randi. It's pretty simple, all they have to do is do what they do every day for their clients. So why hasn't it been claimed? Of course there's a chance psychics haven't heard about the prize, but I imagine it's the sort of thing they discuss. People always find out about money when there's a chance they can get their hands on it.

If the supposedly genuine psychics aren't claiming the prize then clearly they don't have faith in what they do. Which means they're selling defective goods.

[bellicosebroad]

Unfortunately that wasn't the prevailing attitude at the time. There weren't many women who were privileged enough to be able to take on patriarchy, and of the few who weren't busy scrubbing and trying to keep out of the way of their husband's fists, the majority weren't in a position to make more than a peep. While it's nice to think that I, in that position, would have made a stand for my rights and those of other women, the reality is that like most of us I'd have played my part well and kept quiet.

A feminist is a feminist is a feminist, no matter the time she's born into. We can freely bash patriarchal nonsense here today because women like her took a stand, but at the same time I think there were plenty of women doing their part much more quietly. As groundbreaking as Blackwell was, she was just one woman and she didn't do it alone, nor did others who became famous feminists like Stanton and Anthony, Jane Addams, etc. There couldn't have been as many women as you think that were just putting up with the status quo, or it might very likely still *be* the status quo. Subsequent generations have gotten their inspiration from previous ones, and most were not famous.

[Boogalou]

I think that if there were genuine psychics out there they'd have claimed the million dollar prize from James Randi. It's pretty simple, all they have to do is do what they do every day for their clients. So why hasn't it been claimed? Of course there's a chance psychics haven't heard about the prize, but I imagine it's the sort of thing they discuss. People always find out about money when there's a chance they can get their hands on it.

If the supposedly genuine psychics aren't claiming the prize then clearly they don't have faith in what they do. Which means they're selling defective goods.

Actually, that is an interesting point. I would like to hear what some of our resident psychics do have to say about this. Have you heard about this? Any thoughts on it? I just glanced at the website pretty briefly so I'm not really prepared to comment on it.

[smores]

Actually, I'm basing it on my own experience. I have a chronic illness, and desperate and low I have visited alt med practitioners despite dismissing them previously as quacks and scammers. I could afford to lose the money so it was nothing more than an exercise in having my hopes dashed, and given I've a reasonable support system even that wasn't damaging. But what about those on low incomes? With little family support and fewer friends? I've no doubt that a large number of people who look for ideas outside of reason are desperate and that taking money from desperate people for something that can never deliver is wrong.

Exactly, anecdotal evidence is what you're using, which is also unproven. Not all treatments work for all people - the pastor that married my husband and I would not be dying of cancer in the hospital if they did - and guess what, his treatment was western, not homeopathic. And plenty of the wealthy consult psychics too, as well as law enforcement. Again, look deeper than just your own experience and assumptions before you start insulting. No one is asking you to believe the same as everyone else, but it wouldn't kill you to try to respect other posters.