Do fundies believe in ghosts? Do you?

[Guest Anonymous]

But, at the same time, I'm sorry but I DO see a parallel between people feeling free to deny gay partners marriage rights based on a current lack of scientific data -- and people feeling free to disrespect my life experiences for the same reason. And frankly, in both cases, there just plain never WILL be enough data to suit the people who just plain don't want to believe it.

Denying other people the freedom to live as they choose is very different to disbelieving what other people say about their experiences, isn't it?

[Boogalou]

I wanted to edit to clarify some statements, but it wouldn't let me, so here it is:

All I know is I have experienced these things since birth, and I find it very frustrating and insulting when people say they can't believe in my experiences because they don't have enough scientific proof.

I am a die hard gay rights supporter and when people tell me they have known they were gay all of their lives, I don't tell them "Sorry I can't believe you because there isn't enough scientific proof yet". Science is ever evolving, and frankly if someone I know and respect tells me that has been their experience, I believe them, and I keep an open and hopeful mind that someday it will be proven.

Yet that is basically what I am hearing, here. People telling me they feel perfectly comfortable disparaging the things I have experienced from birth, because of a lack of scientific evidence.

Yes, science is the final proof, and to disregard it is to be like the fundies who are trying to tell you Jesus was riding around on dinosaurs, and no, that is not what I promote.

But, at the same time, I'm sorry but I DO see a parallel between people feeling free to deny gay partners marriage rights based on a current lack of scientific data -- and people feeling free to disrespect my life experiences for the same reason. And frankly, in both cases, there just plain never WILL be enough data to suit the people who just plain don't want to believe it.

There is a difference between people saying they don't believe in something themselves and saying they don't believe in your experiences. I believe that your experiences are real but I don't necessarily believe myself. Does that make sense? Also, you can't compare someone having different beliefs than you, or even being disrespectful of your beliefs, and systematically denying someone their rights. It's just not the same thing.

[Deleted03]

I think that if there were genuine psychics out there they'd have claimed the million dollar prize from James Randi. It's pretty simple, all they have to do is do what they do every day for their clients. So why hasn't it been claimed? Of course there's a chance psychics haven't heard about the prize, but I imagine it's the sort of thing they discuss. People always find out about money when there's a chance they can get their hands on it.

If the supposedly genuine psychics aren't claiming the prize then clearly they don't have faith in what they do. Which means they're selling defective goods.

you realize how unscientific your argument is, right? There are tons of institutionai, cultural, and personal reasons for that not happen.

As Vaclav Havel said, those most suited for power are those who do not seek it (problem is, if you don't seek it, you don't run for president). I think the same applies to psychics.

____

All this discussion? It's why I'm still in the broom closet IRL and barely dare get out in public, only a friend at a time. The level of contempt from some people because you've had different experiences, and because you don't make an the "scientific" system of knowledge (that is rife with power inequalities) an idol, put on a pedestal, decide it'S the only way to go (choose whichever applies) then you are necessarily stupid, easily swayed, taken advantage of, uninformed, etc.

FYI the all scientific/industrial knowledge has had all sorts of drawbacks. Look at the shitload of nasty chemicals in our everyday life. Look at the overuse of drugs and stuff.

And not all science is equal. Although there is strong scientific evidence that eating a vegan diet is better for the environment and for your health, very few doctors promote it. Society does not put it as a valid option that most people should adopt.

So I'm freaking tired of the scientific argument in a nutshell. Science is not the all answer to every human experience, and it is rife with power inequalities. It is rife of particular interests too. And I think that once one forget this, it puts science in a very questionable position in society.

ETA: Read Foucault and his analysis of systems of power. The medical system is one of the best example for that.

[Lady_M]

Late to this thread, but it's way too interesting not to get in on it even late!

As far as the paranormal, I don't *really* believe in ghosts, but at the same time, I've heard some pretty convincing stories from people. I've kind of wondered if some places retain some sort of "memory" of the events that happened there.

At the same time, I've also read some interesting articles about people suffering from low-level carbon monoxide poisoning seeing what they thought were paranormal phenomena including ghosts and strange sensations. Not that that explains all stories of hauntings, though.

I'm sort of skeptical, but at the same time I'm also weirdly superstitious about ouija boards - I won't use them because even though I don't really believe in them, part of me just doesn't want to open myself up to some unknown thing possibly coming through it. This probably stems from a bad childhood experience playing "Bloody Mary" that scared the crap out of me (not because any actual spirits came, but because we managed to work ourselves into an absolute state of terror - and I was scared of things coming through mirrors for several years after that). I do believe in God, so I am open to some form of supernatural. Maybe that's why I just can't 100% dismiss the paranormal.

As far as alternative medicine, while I'm part of the western/traditional/allopathic medical world (nurse) and believe pretty firmly in evidence-based practice, I'm also aware that most of the medical practices in use today are fairly recent developments (the first heart transplant was performed in 1967, not really that long ago - for example). I'm pretty sure that nurses in 50 years will look back on our current practices and think some of them were awfully primitive. I also think there's a lot of Eastern and alternative medicine that needs/deserves more exploration and studies. I think the thing about alternative medicine that I find very compelling compared to western medicine is that alternative medicine focuses a lot more on the "whole person" and the interconnectedness of the body and mental states.

[Irishy]

When I started this thread, it was just a bit of Halloween fun. I haven't had a chance to read till now what with preparing for, hosting, and cleaning up after a Halloween party.

I'll tell you my experience of psychics. I do believe there are real crooks out there like psychic Sally with their spies mingling with audience etc and others preying on vulnerable desperate grieving people. BUT I believe there are others with a genuine gift that don't necessarily prostitute themselves on tv or at markets in shady tents. My experience is of an amazing woman. Lets call her Mary. Mary is an old friend of my best friend's mum. I see her at Christmas time when she comes to a women's lunch at my best friend's mum's house. She is a 70 ish year old retired librarian. A quiet unassuming happy lady who likes to sit back and listen to the banter and chuckle. She never married and lives alone enjoying her retirement. Mary is gentle and kind and Mary has a gift. She reads tea leaves. We eat lunch, dessert, make a huge pot of (real) tea, burn our mouths drinking it fast and pass our cups to Mary. She has told me things that blew my socks off. She tells me things that are unfamiliar and odd but sure enough, those things have happened to me subsequently. Amazing little details. She looks into your cup and just speaks. It's unbelievable. She would never give you bad news, she keeps those things to herself. This woman does not do this for anyone except friends and family and in her life she has never charged money. I would love to have her to my house for a party but I wouldn't feel right asking her for some reason.. This woman looked into a teacup as a small child and discovered her gift. She doesn't talk much about it. She just accepts that this is her special thing and she's happy to share her gift. She would NEVER ever present herself in front of some panel to prove herself for some financial gain. I highly doubt she's even heard of this james randi guy. She doesn't belong to a psychic community. She's the type of person who wouldn't even complain about a bad meal in a restaurant because "ah the staff are only doing their best". I'm sure there are plenty more like her in the world and science does not and at this point, cannot explain them. End of story.

[debrand]

I get flak for it, but I'm an atheist who believes in the possibility of paranormal phenomena. I don't necessarily believe that grandma has come back from the dead to walk around the house at night. There is evidence that there is something going on, and instead of dismissing it we should study it and learn more.

I love watching Ghost Hunters, and sometimes I think they are borderline on what they define as paranormal, but they have also caught some pretty interesting evidence in their investigations I wouldn't dismiss completely.

I've had experiences with something else. I don't know if like the word, ghost because I honestly don't understand what happened in my old house.

However, I don't fault anyone for not believing me. You shouldn't believe me, not without some hard evidence. Maybe I misunderstood what happened, maybe there is another explanation, maybe I'm crazy. There are lots of perfectly good reasons to doubt what I personally experienced. Being skeptical is a good thing. I don't get upset when people disbelieve as long as they don't act like I'm stupid.

One day science will be able to explain what occured in my former residence. It can't now though.

Really, some of the strangest things that I've tried to understand involve quatum physics(I spelled quatum incorrectly but I'm too lazy to look it up) All that stuff about multiuniverses just sounds nuts but it apparently is true.

However, for those who want ghostly stories, here is a true one.

In my former house, we had a large picture window. Every evening, I'd let my beagle out to go to the bathroom. Usually he came back to the window and scratched to be let in. It was an old house and there was one way in and out of the home. Late one night, when the kids were in bed, I heard the scratching at the window. Without thinking, I went to the door and opened it a crack, screaming for my dog. He didn't come in and I was getting concerned. Thinking that my dog would come in if I went to the window first and let him see me, I turned around. My dog was in the middle of the living room, staring at me with his fur up.

The next day, I went outside and leaned on the bushes outside the window. I tried every thing that I could to get them to reach the glass. They wouldn't.

[browngrl]

After 20+ years in medicine (conventional, go to medical school - do an internship - do a residency -do a fellowship sort of medicine) and here is what I have learned: don't be dogmatic about the "righteousness" of conventional medicine and the "evil" of alternative medicine. There is much of conventional medicine that is based on as flimsy evidence as alternative medicine. Don't believe me? Pick any standard medical treatment and research back to find the origins of the treatment - you often find that the foundation is just a house of sand. Still don't believe me? Read any research paper and follow the funding and investigate the corporations that have sponsored the research. Often you will find that corporations manipulate the data to be able to market their drugs. Still don't believe me? Watch how treatments and drugs go in and out of favour and then back in favour. What does this say? It says we just don't know as much as we think we do.

It is important to keep an open mind and to continue investigation. 30 years ago NO one believed gastric ulcers were an infectious disease - now H. Pylori is an accepted fact. In fact most new ideas go through an period of being ridiculed before the evidence becomes overwhelming.

On the other hand many people derive much help from alternative medical treatments - who is to say they are wrong to feel better if the DO feel better. I do think we should have governing bodies to regulate the education/training of alternative health care providers and we should police people whose only goal is to scam money BUT I have personally worked with dedicated and honest alternative health care providers. The people I have worked with are happy to act as part of a health care team and know their limits. Alternative health care can be a sensible part of a patient health care plan.

IMO the answer to this issue and pretty much every thing in life is to use common sense and to be pragmatic. Definitely do research and ask questions about the efficacy of a treatment. Do your due diligence when planning patient care by critically evaluating the literature then follow your patient carefully. Make sure you treat the whole patient (this means taking into consideration their life situation/supports/other medical issues etc) and not a lab value or a body part. If a treatment works - then it works - regardless if it is conventional or alternative. Be careful about what you say is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.

Which leads me back to the topic: IMO we just don't know enough about supernatural phenomena to dismiss them out of hand.

[Lady_M]

After 20+ years in medicine (conventional, go to medical school - do an internship - do a residency -do a fellowship sort of medicine) and here is what I have learned: don't be dogmatic about the "righteousness" of conventional medicine and the "evil" of alternative medicine. There is much of conventional medicine that is based on as flimsy evidence as alternative medicine. Don't believe me? Pick any standard medical treatment and research back to find the origins of the treatment - you often find that the foundation is just a house of sand. Still don't believe me? Read any research paper and follow the funding and investigate the corporations that have sponsored the research. Often you will find that corporations manipulate the data to be able to market their drugs. Still don't believe me? Watch how treatments and drugs go in and out of favour and then back in favour. What does this say? It says we just don't know as much as we think we do.

It is important to keep an open mind and to continue investigation. 30 years ago NO one believed gastric ulcers were an infectious disease - now H. Pylori is an accepted fact. In fact most new ideas go through an period of being ridiculed before the evidence becomes overwhelming.

On the other hand many people derive much help from alternative medical treatments - who is to say they are wrong to feel better if the DO feel better. I do think we should have governing bodies to regulate the education/training of alternative health care providers and we should police people whose only goal is to scam money BUT I have personally worked with dedicated and honest alternative health care providers. The people I have worked with are happy to act as part of a health care team and know their limits. Alternative health care can be a sensible part of a patient health care plan.

IMO the answer to this issue and pretty much every thing in life is to use common sense and to be pragmatic. Definitely do research and ask questions about the efficacy of a treatment. Do your due diligence when planning patient care by critically evaluating the literature then follow your patient carefully. Make sure you treat the whole patient (this means taking into consideration their life situation/supports/other medical issues etc) and not a lab value or a body part. If a treatment works - then it works - regardless if it is conventional or alternative. Be careful about what you say is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.

Which leads me back to the topic: IMO we just don't know enough about supernatural phenomena to dismiss them out of hand.

This.

[psycho-hope]

Im a skeptical believer, if something can be explained away by science or nature then great if not well then it may be paranomal :)

Ive seen and dreamt things over the years that cant be explained , including someone/something running across the road in front of my car at night and then vanishing when they got to the other side of the road, ive since heard of other people experiencing the same thing in the same spot on the road

[karupin]

My brother says that, when he was very young, he saw our grandfather's ghost in his bedroom-and I swore I saw the ghost who lives in a local community theater back in the US. As for me, I'd like to believe-but I don't know. It's still comforting to think that my maternal grandparents are back together.

[snarkbillie]

Poking my nose in to say this whole conversation is rather interesting and hilarious considering how many Raptor Jesus type memes go unchecked.

[rock_girl]

After 20+ years in medicine (conventional, go to medical school - do an internship - do a residency -do a fellowship sort of medicine) and here is what I have learned: don't be dogmatic about the "righteousness" of conventional medicine and the "evil" of alternative medicine. There is much of conventional medicine that is based on as flimsy evidence as alternative medicine. Don't believe me? Pick any standard medical treatment and research back to find the origins of the treatment - you often find that the foundation is just a house of sand. Still don't believe me? Read any research paper and follow the funding and investigate the corporations that have sponsored the research. Often you will find that corporations manipulate the data to be able to market their drugs. Still don't believe me? Watch how treatments and drugs go in and out of favour and then back in favour. What does this say? It says we just don't know as much as we think we do.

It is important to keep an open mind and to continue investigation. 30 years ago NO one believed gastric ulcers were an infectious disease - now H. Pylori is an accepted fact. In fact most new ideas go through an period of being ridiculed before the evidence becomes overwhelming.

On the other hand many people derive much help from alternative medical treatments - who is to say they are wrong to feel better if the DO feel better. I do think we should have governing bodies to regulate the education/training of alternative health care providers and we should police people whose only goal is to scam money BUT I have personally worked with dedicated and honest alternative health care providers. The people I have worked with are happy to act as part of a health care team and know their limits. Alternative health care can be a sensible part of a patient health care plan.

IMO the answer to this issue and pretty much every thing in life is to use common sense and to be pragmatic. Definitely do research and ask questions about the efficacy of a treatment. Do your due diligence when planning patient care by critically evaluating the literature then follow your patient carefully. Make sure you treat the whole patient (this means taking into consideration their life situation/supports/other medical issues etc) and not a lab value or a body part. If a treatment works - then it works - regardless if it is conventional or alternative. Be careful about what you say is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.

Which leads me back to the topic: IMO we just don't know enough about supernatural phenomena to dismiss them out of hand.

There is more to conventional treatments than "I picked the herbs fresh this morning and blessed them myself" or "let me put my hands above your body so that my energy can flow into and heal you". I have my own little team of docs, all of whom I'd consider to be up to date with the latest findings on their specialities. None of them are opposed to stress management, to exercise, eating a good diet, sleep hygiene, regular massage, counselling and even a little bit of acupuncture to deal with nausea (although one of them did tell me that she's not seen it be useful to any of her patients). They have nothing against taking into account what my counsellor recommends regarding timing of treatments, although of course they're not going to be asking for advice regarding my condition. The thing is, neither my masseuse or counsellor are holding out promise of a cure or even guaranteeing symptom management. The TCM practitioner was a little more optimistic (which is one of the reasons I got rid of him, and stopped persisting with trying to get it to work for me), but even he was very open about his services not being a good fit for everybody. Which I suppose is alt med speak for "it only works for a few of my customers".

Then you have the real crazies of alt med, the homeopaths, the naturopaths, the reiki practitioners, the crystal healers, the energy channelers the... oh gosh, I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots I visited. These scam artists promise cures and when there is no cure the problem is with the customer, not the scammer. There are chiropracters who insist that a little bit of manipulation can help with allergies. These people don't need education and regulation, they just need to begin every consultation with "I am required to tell you that my treatment is unproven and that any 'medicine' I prepare for you may interact negatively with medication you are currently taking. It is unlikely that you will walk out of here with a cure or even a plan to manage your symptoms but you will be a lot poorer for having seen me".

I'm sure there are some doctors who are willing to work with these people, but I wouldn't want those doctors treating me or my family.

[rock_girl]

I wanted to edit to clarify some statements, but it wouldn't let me, so here it is:

All I know is I have experienced these things since birth, and I find it very frustrating and insulting when people say they can't believe in my experiences because they don't have enough scientific proof.

I am a die hard gay rights supporter and when people tell me they have known they were gay all of their lives, I don't tell them "Sorry I can't believe you because there isn't enough scientific proof yet". Science is ever evolving, and frankly if someone I know and respect tells me that has been their experience, I believe them, and I keep an open and hopeful mind that someday it will be proven.

Yet that is basically what I am hearing, here. People telling me they feel perfectly comfortable disparaging the things I have experienced from birth, because of a lack of scientific evidence.

Yes, science is the final proof, and to disregard it is to be like the fundies who are trying to tell you Jesus was riding around on dinosaurs, and no, that is not what I promote.

But, at the same time, I'm sorry but I DO see a parallel between people feeling free to deny gay partners marriage rights based on a current lack of scientific data -- and people feeling free to disrespect my life experiences for the same reason. And frankly, in both cases, there just plain never WILL be enough data to suit the people who just plain don't want to believe it.

Plenty of research has been done on homosexuality and we've observed it in other primates, as well as plenty of animals without such a close relationship to humans. It's perfectly reasonable to take someone's claim of being gay since birth at face value, even if the thought of teh gayz makes you feel icky and gross.

Tbh, this seems kind of an awful comparison. Made up stuff vs. a group of people being denied human rights. If a fundie started ranting on about his beliefs being unkindly challenged being just like denying lgbtq rights, it'd be an absolutely hilarious (and scary!) joke. Why do you get a pass?

[emmiedahl]

If someone offers a guarantee, they are a quack. I have seen it from licensed medical practitioners and alternative people alike, and it always sends me running for the hills.

I believe in the paranormal and I understand why you do not. I am fine with it. Nothing in my black, black soul is crying to convert you. And I believe there are zero consequences to not believing as I do. But if I personally can believe in psychic abilities, then why can't clibbyjo? She is, from the most anti-paranormal perspective I can muster, selling a product that she believes in, that other people want to buy. So that is why I take issue with assuming the practitioners are frauds or thieves.

[rock_girl]

If a doctor was promising cures to her patients she'd be up for disciplinary action as soon as complaints were made. The thing is, no ethical doctor would say to a patient "this will cure you 100%", whereas plenty of alt med practitioners are basing their business model on offering cures when medicine can't.

I really have no problem with other people's peculiar beliefs (although reserve the right to snark on them), but taking money for selling those beliefs? I'll never have anything positive to say about it. I assume now that clibbyjo is aware of the million dollar challenge she'll be off to claim her prize. If that can be done I'd be happy to concede that there needs to be more rigorous research carried out to test psychic abilities.

[meda]

There is more to conventional treatments than "I picked the herbs fresh this morning and blessed them myself" or "let me put my hands above your body so that my energy can flow into and heal you". I have my own little team of docs, all of whom I'd consider to be up to date with the latest findings on their specialities. None of them are opposed to stress management, to exercise, eating a good diet, sleep hygiene, regular massage, counselling and even a little bit of acupuncture to deal with nausea (although one of them did tell me that she's not seen it be useful to any of her patients). They have nothing against taking into account what my counsellor recommends regarding timing of treatments, although of course they're not going to be asking for advice regarding my condition. The thing is, neither my masseuse or counsellor are holding out promise of a cure or even guaranteeing symptom management. The TCM practitioner was a little more optimistic (which is one of the reasons I got rid of him, and stopped persisting with trying to get it to work for me), but even he was very open about his services not being a good fit for everybody. Which I suppose is alt med speak for "it only works for a few of my customers".

Then you have the real crazies of alt med, the homeopaths, the naturopaths, the reiki practitioners, the crystal healers, the energy channelers the... oh gosh, I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots I visited. These scam artists promise cures and when there is no cure the problem is with the customer, not the scammer. There are chiropracters who insist that a little bit of manipulation can help with allergies. These people don't need education and regulation, they just need to begin every consultation with "I am required to tell you that my treatment is unproven and that any 'medicine' I prepare for you may interact negatively with medication you are currently taking. It is unlikely that you will walk out of here with a cure or even a plan to manage your symptoms but you will be a lot poorer for having seen me".

I'm sure there are some doctors who are willing to work with these people, but I wouldn't want those doctors treating me or my family.

So you do realize that here you are lecturing an M.D. about the most appropriate way to practice medicine? Are you also an M.D., or do you really just know everything there is to know about everything?

[rock_girl]

So you do realize that here you are lecturing an M.D. about the most appropriate way to practice medicine? Are you also an M.D., or do you really just know everything there is to know about everything?

Are you saying that MDs are infallible? There are doctors out there who'll advise parents not to vaccinate their children, and there's at least one gp here in Sydney who's a 'licensed' homeopath. She has a diploma :lol:.

I make sure that I see the best doctors I possibly can. None of them would ever recommend taking quacks seriously so I don't. Well, I don't now.

[Minerva]

There's a million-ish dollar prize being offered to anyone who can provide proof of evolution. It's never been claimed. Not that the two cases are necessarily similar, but it goes to show that dangling millions of dollars in front of people doesn't guarantee you'll get the evidence you're asking for.

[rock_girl]

There's a million-ish dollar prize being offered to anyone who can provide proof of evolution. It's never been claimed. Not that the two cases are necessarily similar, but it goes to show that dangling millions of dollars in front of people doesn't guarantee you'll get the evidence you're asking for.

I remember reading about that. It was unclaimable due to restrictions on the use of certain types of research. Basically set up to wow fundies and win over on the fencers by showing that the ebil evolutionists ran when forced to provide evidence of their precious theory. And it was for something like 10k.

The Randi prize has no limitations put on it save for the abilities being demonstrated needing to be evaluated under controlled conditions. Meaning you can't bring in your great aunt Maude to act astonished at your predictions.

[Deleted03]

Well rock_girl who persist in telling people we are quack and scam artists - Bless your heart!

I won't pray for you because I reserve my prayers to people who are not insulting me or my friends.

[rock_girl]

Well rock_girl who persist in telling people we are quack and scam artists - Bless your heart!

I won't pray for you because I reserve my prayers to people who are not insulting me or my friends.

S'ok, I have plenty of prayers coming my way from religious doorknockers, acquaintances who've failed to convert me, and from family and friends who really do care for the wellbeing of my wretched soul.

I doubt I'd miss your prayers. But thank you for blessing my heart. It sneezed earlier.

[Minerva]

I remember reading about that. It was unclaimable due to restrictions on the use of certain types of research. Basically set up to wow fundies and win over on the fencers by showing that the ebil evolutionists ran when forced to provide evidence of their precious theory. And it was for something like 10k.

The Randi prize has no limitations put on it save for the abilities being demonstrated needing to be evaluated under controlled conditions. Meaning you can't bring in your great aunt Maude to act astonished at your predictions.

You're right, the guy I was thinking of was only offering 250k. There's a guy named Adnan Oktar who offered the equivalent of several trillion US dollars in 2008. No one has even bothered claiming the prize, as far as Google is telling me, because the scientific community rolls their eyes at these types of things.

[mockingbird]

Are you saying that MDs are infallible? There are doctors out there who'll advise parents not to vaccinate their children, and there's at least one gp here in Sydney who's a 'licensed' homeopath. She has a diploma :lol:.

I make sure that I see the best doctors I possibly can. None of them would ever recommend taking quacks seriously so I don't. Well, I don't now.

Naturopath degree does not equal MD, so while it may be misleading that she qualifies herself as a general practitioner, if she doesn't also have a medical degree, it's unfair to use that practitioner as an example of a fallible MD. Because she is not an MD.

I think Browngirl's point originally anyway, was that conventional medicine IS fallible - the scientific method is not as perfect as some people like to believe. (And being skeptical of new findings is good, in a way - it keeps us from blindly falling for anything new that comes up - but like she pointed out it can also lead to delays in advances of knowledge/treatment.)

I would however be hard-pressed to say supporting patients who choose alternative medicine by giving them honest feedback (whether that is I think it is harmful or I don't think it has anything besides a placebo effect but there haven't been studies shown that it's harmful, etc). and guiding them to any available information (such as regarding drug interactions) automatically makes someone a bad doctor. My personal definition of a bad doctor is someone who does not respect their patients' wishes/autonomy... just based on personal experience. And no that is not all doctors. But giving honest feedback about alternative medicine without outright dismissing it because it's not conventional medicine would not make someone a bad doctor IMO, just someone with a different perspective on the breadth of western medicine, maybe.

I just don't think all of this stuff should be outlawed or given huge restrictions outright just because you had bad experiences with it. From what I have heard from many docs, a lot of alt med falls into the hasn't been proven to do anything, but hasn't been proven to harm either category, and I know a lot of people who do things that I'd probably place in that category. I might not think they work, but they do and haven't experienced any side effects so it's not my place to judge. And like I said before, it's not like people aren't aware it's not conventional medicine.

[tropaka]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but I just read the OP....if fundies don't believe in ghosts etc, why do they believe "witches" can curse things (like Halloween candy LOL) or that yoga can open up people to hindu spirits etc...If you don't believe in these things, how can they harm you?

I don't believe in ghosts - I've tried, believe me - but, no.

ETA I see we've somehow gotten into the alt vs medical healthcare arguments. I trust research and mostly I side with MDs.

[Minerva]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but I just read the OP....if fundies don't believe in ghosts etc, why do they believe "witches" can curse things (like Halloween candy LOL) or that yoga can open up people to hindu spirits etc...If you don't believe in these things, how can they harm you?

I don't believe in ghosts - I've tried, believe me - but, no.

ETA I see we've somehow gotten into the alt vs medical healthcare arguments. I trust research and mostly I side with MDs.

They believe in Satan and his minions, which can include witches and the entities of other religions (all of which are just Satanism in disguise) depending on the fundy. They don't believe human souls go anywhere besides Heaven and Hell, so no ghosts.

Edited for clarity.