Patriarchy and region--Any thoughts?

[Swamptribe]

Honestly, I believe it's more of an agricultural economy vs industrial economy thing.

The South traditionally has an agricultural economy. The North, industrial. The agricultural economy lends itself more to the patriarchal influence than the industrial one. Look at the industrial revolution at the turn of the century, most of it took place in the Northern states. It strongly influenced labor, which included women working as well as child labor. When labor sought rights women were part of that. Look at what happened after WWII. Women went to work in industry and other fields to make up for men going off to war. Women took support positions in the military itself. When the war was over, the little ladies were expected to give up what they had worked for to the men. They didn't like it.

I also see strong patriarchal leanings coming from what I would consider 'out west. Middle America, and the western states also seem to have strong patriarchal leanings. And again, they are pretty traditional agricultural areas.

[MissSeptember]

The fundies in the northeast are even a different breed: Amish, Mennonite, etc instead of Baptist or non-denominational.

Yes, they are still patriarchal, but it has a different feel. As an example, southern fundie men dress completely normal, while their women wear frumpers. In the northeast (Amish and Menno) fundie men dress differently than "the world" just like their women do.

[Minerva]

The bolded is what I meant to say, they can't really do anything about it. I did know about the statistic of 35% of MPs being anti-choice, which I thought in the Southern states, that number seems a lot greater, though I have no idea if that's true, just my impression. The scary anti-choice laws some states pass would never work here, though there' have been some anti-choice activism and advertising that has made me uncomfortable lately.

They're flailing. Their movement is aging and the younger generations aren't taking their place. They thought they could make the American war on women spread North, and all they managed was to continue to beat their heads against the wall that is the rest of Canada's common sense. We'll see them get nastier and more melodramatic in the coming years. Death throes and all. Not a reason to cut them any slack, of course.

And yup, I imagine politicians having to hide their anti-choiceness seems remarkable to people who live in the southern States. It wouldn't surprise me if politicians there have to hide their pro-choiceness sometimes.

[meda]

Honestly, I believe it's more of an agricultural economy vs industrial economy thing.

The South traditionally has an agricultural economy. The North, industrial. The agricultural economy lends itself more to the patriarchal influence than the industrial one. Look at the industrial revolution at the turn of the century, most of it took place in the Northern states. It strongly influenced labor, which included women working as well as child labor. When labor sought rights women were part of that. Look at what happened after WWII. Women went to work in industry and other fields to make up for men going off to war. Women took support positions in the military itself. When the war was over, the little ladies were expected to give up what they had worked for to the men. They didn't like it.

I also see strong patriarchal leanings coming from what I would consider 'out west. Middle America, and the western states also seem to have strong patriarchal leanings. And again, they are pretty traditional agricultural areas.

I agree with this. I also think that the white settlement patterns of the South still have an influence. The plantation culture and the cult of pure southern womanhood still seem to linger. Vision Forum has made an industry out of peddling revisionist antebellum history and paraphernalia.

[jaynie]

They're flailing. Their movement is aging and the younger generations aren't taking their place. They thought they could make the American war on women spread North, and all they managed was to continue to beat their heads against the wall that is the rest of Canada's common sense. We'll see them get nastier and more melodramatic in the coming years. Death throes and all. Not a reason to cut them any slack, of course.

I sure hope that's the case. I never seem to meet anyone who actually supports things like the war on women or anti-gay stuff etc. I was quite pleased to see the Wildrose party lose so much respect so quickly when it emerged that they were cool with sexist, racist, homophobic stuff -- and that was in Alberta! The only trouble I see is that a lot of Canadians are a bit...smug? about not being as awful as the USA, so there is a slight tendency to vote in nutters without really realizing it, because this is Canada and the only loonies are in our wallets, right? I know an awful lot of people who voted conservative in the federal election who, when pressed, are quite pro-socialism, but who didn't want the fuss of another minority government and another election. And when they tried to sneak that personhood thing in (which I slightly think was a way of testing the waters without committing), a lot of people were shocked that it was even a thing that could happen. I think we'll probably remain pretty okay, but complacency is a dangerous thing! (This is totally one of the themes of the book I'm writing, so it's been on my mind a lot!)

[O Latin]

Honestly, I believe it's more of an agricultural economy vs industrial economy thing.

The South traditionally has an agricultural economy. The North, industrial. The agricultural economy lends itself more to the patriarchal influence than the industrial one. Look at the industrial revolution at the turn of the century, most of it took place in the Northern states. It strongly influenced labor, which included women working as well as child labor. When labor sought rights women were part of that. Look at what happened after WWII. Women went to work in industry and other fields to make up for men going off to war. Women took support positions in the military itself. When the war was over, the little ladies were expected to give up what they had worked for to the men. They didn't like it.

I also see strong patriarchal leanings coming from what I would consider 'out west. Middle America, and the western states also seem to have strong patriarchal leanings. And again, they are pretty traditional agricultural areas.

I'm not sure I would agree with the bolded. I live in Idaho, which is very conservative, but I don't get a patriarchal fundie religious vibe from the local culture or politics. This is just my experience as I live in probably the most liberal area of the state, so I don't know what it's like in more conservative and rural areas (or towns dominated my Mormons, which there are quite a few of). State politics are typically conservative, but the overall culture is not super religious or patriarchal.

[Hane]

Thanks so much for your comments, everyone! Lots of food for thought.

Re northern climes and egalitarianism: Shortly before my trip to Iceland a couple of years ago, I read that it's considered "the most feminist country in the world." It's been a democracy for over a millennium, and has an out lesbian prime minister.

Oh, and I love Canada, and am proud of having been kind of a Canadian "by injection," as Ex-Mr.-Hane #1 was French Canadian on his paternal side. (There is actually a town--a booming metropolis of 500 souls-- bearing his surname in New Brunswick, where his ancestors settled on coming over from France in 1708.)

Swamptribe, you are right on the money about Northern industrialization vs. Southern agriculturism. Why the heck that didn't dawn on me I'll never know. My grandmother, daughter of Italian immigrants, dropped out of school in her early teens (circa 1910) and lied about her age to get working papers so she could get a job in a blouse factory, to help support her widowed mother. By the time Grandma decided to get married (at age 28, and only because she and Grandpa were madly in love), she had saved $12,000. So, naturally, the day after my mom graduated high school (at age 16), Grandma woke her up and told her to take the ferry from Staten Island to Manhattan and get a job. No SAHD crap in that family! Mom started out in the mail room at Travelers Insurance, put herself through business college at night, and worked her way up to executive secretary before quitting (after a series of miscarriages) to have me.

AnnieC, thanks for the links! Something interesting to read now that I've put the grandson to bed.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm in central Illinois which seems to be the start of the Bible belt and I'm definitely seeing the seeds of the patriarchal movement here. In my town of ~100,000 we have 2 megachurches (and 4 conservative Catholic churches). 1 megachurch very much promotes patriarchy, and I'm not sure the other one does. Talking about Jesus and conversion attempts are very much the norm here; as a Pagan I seem to be the target of more than my fair share.

Central Illinois here too, I was going to post something about the rural vs. urban thing in many parts of the Midwest.

Urbana here, adopted hometown (grew up in Japan, definitely no Christian overbearing there! :D) but I do hear stories about very traditional rural places around here from my coworkers. Let's just say, I'm very happy to live in a university town, just for general "can I live here, does it have the supports I need?" question - which admittedly for me is pretty much about how much Asian presence a place has :)

I've had people try to convert me before, I used to fall for it when I was in college myself but have grown thicker skin since. Interestingly I do see a few missionaries who seem to come to campus every year trolling for new hits, they speak Chinese (fairly well judging from my 2 years of college classes, anyway) and try to woo various freshly arrived people.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

From what I've seen of my fundie-lite patriarchal friends, there's a HUGE emphasis on sex. How men need it, how it's women's job to provide it. Seriously, all the fundie-lite people I know are totally obsessed with sex, posting about finding "Christian erotica" or how if you don't give it up enough men will "stray." I, an outspoken feminist, have been told repeatedly by my fundie-lite friends that I owe my husband sex. As in it's a biblical obligation. Doesn't matter that I'm not a Christian, I owe it to him.

Yeah, that's the old quid pro quo - definitely not limited to explicitly religious people. Basically, under the patriarchy, there's an exchange where women provide sex to men in exchange for those men "consenting" to stick around and economically provide for them and any potential kids. I.e. "being civilized" because by "nature" men just want to wander and party/sex it up. If you don't put out, well, your man might stray and then where will you be???

...why, earning my own living in the marketplace, thank you very much, you can bite my ass.

But yeah, this is the root of so much of (1) the whining about women working is going to be the end of civilization, and (2) the whining about how supposedly even under the patriarchy women somehow control everything through rationing out of Teh Sexxx and how terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE that is. :roll:

[Arete]

Thanks so much for your comments, everyone! Lots of food for thought.

Re northern climes and egalitarianism: Shortly before my trip to Iceland a couple of years ago, I read that it's considered "the most feminist country in the world." It's been a democracy for over a millennium, and has an out lesbian prime minister.

Oh, and I love Canada, and am proud of having been kind of a Canadian "by injection," as Ex-Mr.-Hane #1 was French Canadian on his paternal side. (There is actually a town--a booming metropolis of 500 souls-- bearing his surname in New Brunswick, where his ancestors settled on coming over from France in 1708.)

Swamptribe, you are right on the money about Northern industrialization vs. Southern agriculturism. Why the heck that didn't dawn on me I'll never know. My grandmother, daughter of Italian immigrants, dropped out of school in her early teens (circa 1910) and lied about her age to get working papers so she could get a job in a blouse factory, to help support her widowed mother. By the time Grandma decided to get married (at age 28, and only because she and Grandpa were madly in love), she had saved $12,000. So, naturally, the day after my mom graduated high school (at age 16), Grandma woke her up and told her to take the ferry from Staten Island to Manhattan and get a job. No SAHD crap in that family! Mom started out in the mail room at Travelers Insurance, put herself through business college at night, and worked her way up to executive secretary before quitting (after a series of miscarriages) to have me.

AnnieC, thanks for the links! Something interesting to read now that I've put the grandson to bed.

Swamptribe and meda are definitely on the money. Thanks ladies! Hane, my aunt kept 6,000 dollars under the bed. Announced to uncle one day that there was a used Volvo for sale and she was getting it. He pointed out that it was not in the budget. She pointed out that it was under the bed. :lol: His response "We have been sewing our socks to meet kid X's tuition payment, and you have 6,000 dollars under the fucking mattress!"

[DistantStar]

I'm not sure I would agree with the bolded. I live in Idaho, which is very conservative, but I don't get a patriarchal fundie religious vibe from the local culture or politics. This is just my experience as I live in probably the most liberal area of the state, so I don't know what it's like in more conservative and rural areas (or towns dominated my Mormons, which there are quite a few of). State politics are typically conservative, but the overall culture is not super religious or patriarchal.

I tried to PM you, O Latin, and I don't think it worked, but I think we might be neighbors! I live in what is to my knowledge definitely the most liberal part of Idaho, which gets looked at weirdly by the rest of the state. We run to hippies more than fundies of any stripe around here.

Mormons are quite patriarchal themselves but it's a different style of patriarchy. Not that it makes it much better, but at least they don't object to women getting educations and voting and such. The real wackos there are the polygamist groups. Creeeeepy, they are.

[Hane]

Swamptribe and meda are definitely on the money. Thanks ladies! Hane, my aunt kept 6,000 dollars under the bed. Announced to uncle one day that there was a used Volvo for sale and she was getting it. He pointed out that it was not in the budget. She pointed out that it was under the bed. :lol: His response "We have been sewing our socks to meet kid X's tuition payment, and you have 6,000 dollars under the fucking mattress!"

I love this woman. All my life, whenever I've encountered those pukeworthy little stereotypical jokes about women being spendthrifts, I've wanted to scream. My grandmother pulled her family out of the Depression by doing piecework at home, my mom was always a far better money manager than my dad, and I am one of those divorced moms who did financially BETTER on my own than married. I'm not the only one: a neighbor said it was amazing how far the family budget stretched when there wasn't an overgrown boy in the house buying expensive stereos and stuff.

[O Latin]

I tried to PM you, O Latin, and I don't think it worked, but I think we might be neighbors! I live in what is to my knowledge definitely the most liberal part of Idaho, which gets looked at weirdly by the rest of the state. We run to hippies more than fundies of any stripe around here.

Mormons are quite patriarchal themselves but it's a different style of patriarchy. Not that it makes it much better, but at least they don't object to women getting educations and voting and such. The real wackos there are the polygamist groups. Creeeeepy, they are.

I knew there was another Idahoan here! I didn't get a PM, but chances are we live in the same area. There aren't very many liberal enclaves in Idaho.

I know there are places in Idaho where Mormons are the overwhelming majority, and I could see those areas being more patriarchal, but around here there aren't enough of them to really permeate the culture (at least in my experience). Most of the conservatives that I encounter are more of the "don't take away my guns or raise my taxes," type. Granted, they will vote for politicians who tend to vote for patriarchal policies (anti-abortion, etc.) but I think a lot of them probably aren't putting much thought into it beyond looking for all the "R's" on the ballot.

[Convicted Blossom]

This brought my face to the keyboard, not a face palm, a head to the keyboard.

One of the young women who has worked in our small business came from a fundy light family. She really wanted to go and work in Africa, she was training as a nurse and we thought she'd be fabulous. She suddenly married a lazy-good-for-nothing fundy lite and had three kids quick smart, scotching her dreams. We idiots thought it was his cannabis abuse that kept her shackled, it was the bloody headship and we didn't see it.

[Sumeri]

Grew up in Chicago, where most of my friends were black, Greek or Jewish. No way were ANY of the moms I knew as a kid letting the men come home and make decisions for her children.

I live in the Dakotas now - both North and South - and while it is far more traditional here, women are typically in charge of what goes on in the house, and that's not a new thing. Don't try telling a German farm grandma how to raise her grandchildren. There was a stupid kitchen wall hanging that I saw a lot of living in small town ND: it featured a drawing of a puffed up rooster saying "I rule the roost!" and beside him was a chicken slapping a rolling pin in one hand (claw?) saying, "I rule the rooster." Pretty much that.

[Peas n carrots]

As Sumerian mentioned, living in Chicago the only fundies I see are Orthodox Jewish fundies. But I really don't know much about the ones that live in my neighborhood beyond that the women wear long skirts, long sleeves and cover their hair while the men wear black suits and black hats.

I grew up in Nebraska, which is far more guns & government conservatives. Also, NE is pretty heavily Catholic and you don't see as much of the evangelicals (not that Catholics can't be patriarchal). However it seems that we elect the most religious Nutters to our unicameral.

But Vicki Garrison & the other co-founder (the name escapes me, but she was the one who ran off with another guy and left the kids with the patriarch father) are both from NE. So I wonder if there are really more fundie families in places like the Northeast, but you just don't see them because they are very isolated? Before I had read Vicki's story, I didn't think this existed where I live, but now I realize that they purposefully do not interact with anyone outside of their belief system.

[Katiebug]

I grew up and still live in the same area of New England as Hane and I agree.

We have fundies out here. They're just not the norm, and my guess is that even our fundies would be considered fundie lite in other parts of the country. DH and I went to the same schools growing up and our "fundies" went to public schools, wore pants, were on the swim and wrestling teams (how defrauding!), they applied to and went to real colleges, etc. Those from true fundie families may not have been allowed to go to the prom, or to have sleepovers at friends' houses, but they were not isolated and for the most part even those who attended really fundamentalist churches were just waiting to go to college and get free from their parents!

I grew up in a Lutheran family which was active in religion yet not preachy or pushy. We weren't/aren't Catholic like the majority of the population is around here, and so I grew up exposed to Catholicism and other mainline Protestant denominations. My family is from the Midwest originally and it was the same there as it is here - it's just not done to talk much about religion in social settings or the workplace. Talking about religion at work doesn't happen beyond a brief mention that your daughter's baptism or son's bar mitzvah was the previous weekend. There's no one asking the new guy, "Hey, where do you go to church?" You don't hand a Bible to your Hindu colleague or your Wiccan boss. Proselytizing to coworkers in 99% of the companies around here would result in a meeting with HR about what is and is not appropriate in the workplace. Likewise, in a social setting you'll very quickly find yourself isolated from friends and neighbors if you start to go on too much about how awesome Jesus is. It's totally fine to have strong religious beliefs, but you keep them to yourself.

I think part of the lack of patriarchy is our lack of fundamentalist religious beliefs, and the other part is our culture. The Northeast was industrialized earlier and as a result families needed to be smaller and women needed to bring in an income of some kind. There are a lot of families who survived the Great Depression (and now the Great Recession) thanks to an educated woman who was able to work and provide. Families tend to be pretty egalitarian or even matriarchal in the case of a lot of the families of Italian, Polish, Irish, and French-Canadian extraction. In the Italian-American Catholic families I know, what Hane said is true. They may still follow traditional gender roles with the man as provider and the woman at home, but the woman rules the roost. It reminds me of the line in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" where the mom says to her daughter something like, "The man is the head of the household, but the woman is the neck, and the neck can turn the head any way she wants."

[debrand]

For some reason, this subject has been on my mind a lot. I've lived in every region of the country except the north east and, yes, the south is different. The south is very traditional. In some ways that is good and yet, in a lot of other ways it holds us back. There is also a stubborn streak running through the south that is very resistant to change. I'm not certain how you change that type of ingrained thinking.

edited to take stuff out that didn't really add to the conversation

[nokidsmom]

Also grew up in Chicago and concur with both Sumeri and Peas n Carrots that the only fundies I saw were Orthodox Jews. While in college often walked / rode through their community on the way to my college campus. Guess I might have defrauded a couple of Orthodox guys. :lol:

Knew a few Greek and Italian families while growing up, along with Polish families too, and none of the moms were the servile types at all. In fact, they were clearly in charge of things at home and everyone knew it.

Didn't run into any other fundies until my cousin joined a fundy KJV-believing church and she started spewing all kinds of stuff about patriarchy. Church was small and not the norm in the area. This was while I was still in college.

Still live in the general area. There are some mega churches around that seem to have some fundie-lite type folks attending; both my husband and myself know such people through work. However, while the churches are conservative, they are not fundie.

[DistantStar]

I know there are places in Idaho where Mormons are the overwhelming majority, and I could see those areas being more patriarchal, but around here there aren't enough of them to really permeate the culture (at least in my experience). Most of the conservatives that I encounter are more of the "don't take away my guns or raise my taxes," type. Granted, they will vote for politicians who tend to vote for patriarchal policies (anti-abortion, etc.) but I think a lot of them probably aren't putting much thought into it beyond looking for all the "R's" on the ballot.

I agree -- my sense has been that native Idahoan conservativism is more of the "stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours" sort in general, with a big emphasis on not raising taxes and not taking away guns. Sure there are a lot of anti-choicers and all of that, but in all the idiocy I've heard about coming out of Boise the emphasis seems to be different than it was in, as an example, Georgia, which was all about Jesus and saving teh babies. I'm not a fan of the "screw you, I've got mine" strain of thought but it's a tiny step above "my religion should dictate what you do," in my mind. Like, a Planck length better. Just a teeny bit.

[nokidsmom]

I grew up in a Lutheran family which was active in religion yet not preachy or pushy. We weren't/aren't Catholic like the majority of the population is around here, and so I grew up exposed to Catholicism and other mainline Protestant denominations. My family is from the Midwest originally and it was the same there as it is here - it's just not done to talk much about religion in social settings or the workplace. Talking about religion at work doesn't happen beyond a brief mention that your daughter's baptism or son's bar mitzvah was the previous weekend. There's no one asking the new guy, "Hey, where do you go to church?" You don't hand a Bible to your Hindu colleague or your Wiccan boss. Proselytizing to coworkers in 99% of the companies around here would result in a meeting with HR about what is and is not appropriate in the workplace. Likewise, in a social setting you'll very quickly find yourself isolated from friends and neighbors if you start to go on too much about how awesome Jesus is. It's totally fine to have strong religious beliefs, but you keep them to yourself.

This crossposted with mine above but want to concur in a separate post.

Also grew up Lutheran but living in Chicago I knew a lot of Catholics. If you weren't Catholic then you typically belonged to some mainline Protestant denomination. And in the workplace, talking about religion is also just a casual mention of a baptism, first communion, or something like that. Doing more than that such as proselytizing often will land you in a meeting with HR in most large companies around here, however there are some places that will tolerate more than others. In my experience, these seem to be small companies / Mom and Pop operations or small field offices associated with larger companies far away from HQ which allows the local management to get away with it. My husband worked for a local small newspaper that had a lot of evangelical Christians and he heard religious talk all the time. Back in the nineties, I worked for a field office of a large mortgage company and the fundie-ish manager drove out the heathen loan officers (meaning who did not belong to his church) and hired buddies from church. I left that job because I certainly saw no forward career path under such a manager. I am sure what he did was against the company policy but got away with it because it was a small field office away from HQ. I currently work for a multinational corporation with a very diverse workforce and any proselytizing will either get you marked as a "Jesus freak" to be avoided at best or a meeting with HR at worst.

I worked retail while in college and we had a newly hired assistant manager who was a fundie. New convert, carried his Bible with him all the time, and did try to actively convert employees, invite them to his church and bible studies. After a number of complaints, he was told by the head manager to stop but the young fundie manager would not be dissuaded from his soul-winning for Jesus, continued that activity and was subsequently fired.

[fedelm]

Urbana here, adopted hometown (grew up in Japan, definitely no Christian overbearing there! :D) but I do hear stories about very traditional rural places around here from my coworkers. Let's just say, I'm very happy to live in a university town, just for general "can I live here, does it have the supports I need?" question - which admittedly for me is pretty much about how much Asian presence a place has :)

I've had people try to convert me before, I used to fall for it when I was in college myself but have grown thicker skin since. Interestingly I do see a few missionaries who seem to come to campus every year trolling for new hits, they speak Chinese (fairly well judging from my 2 years of college classes, anyway) and try to woo various freshly arrived people.

Hi Neighbor! I'm in Urbana too. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs though, came down here for school, and decided I liked the balance of a decent amount of culture + no traffic.

[CynicMom]

I grew up in the south and wonder if part of the reason has to do with the extent to which the church is the center of social life. It wouldn't be uncommon in a lot of places for all your non-work get-togethers with friends to be church related in some way. If you don't go to church, how would you find friends? And how would your friends hang out with you? This gives the church an inordinate amount of power. Is it not this way in the NE?

[pomology]

Honestly, I believe it's more of an agricultural economy vs industrial economy thing.

The South traditionally has an agricultural economy. The North, industrial. The agricultural economy lends itself more to the patriarchal influence than the industrial one. Look at the industrial revolution at the turn of the century, most of it took place in the Northern states. It strongly influenced labor, which included women working as well as child labor. When labor sought rights women were part of that. Look at what happened after WWII. Women went to work in industry and other fields to make up for men going off to war. Women took support positions in the military itself. When the war was over, the little ladies were expected to give up what they had worked for to the men. They didn't like it.

I also see strong patriarchal leanings coming from what I would consider 'out west. Middle America, and the western states also seem to have strong patriarchal leanings. And again, they are pretty traditional agricultural areas.

This makes sense to me as it goes along well with why slavery expanded in the south and faded in the north.

[Katydid]

I grew up in the south and wonder if part of the reason has to do with the extent to which the church is the center of social life. It wouldn't be uncommon in a lot of places for all your non-work get-togethers with friends to be church related in some way. If you don't go to church, how would you find friends? And how would your friends hang out with you? This gives the church an inordinate amount of power. Is it not this way in the NE?

Growing up in New England, the church had very, very little to do with our social lives. We had friends at school, through community organizations, Girl Scouts, the Women's Club, etc. My parents had friends through their social clubs and the YMCA and work, too. We also lived in the same town that my family immigrated to about 80-90 years ago, so everyone knows everyone. Church was something we did once a week, and the kids went to CCD on Tuesdays or Wednesdays until they made their Confirmations in HS.