Patriarchy and region--Any thoughts?

[Hane]

Disclaimer: The following constitutes the opinions and observations of a 59-year-old Italian-American woman who was born in New York City but has lived her entire life, from the age of 2.5, in the same blue-collar New England town.

I've noticed, both during my tenure at FJ and before, that the vast majority of the restrictive, patriarchal fundamentalist movements in this country seem to have their roots in the American South. I've seen tinges of the "man as head of the family" thing in assorted writings about Southern people, to a far greater extent than what I've seen in those about Northeasterners.

In the generations leading up to mine (in Italian-American famiies and others), I've seen a lot of "the man is the breadwinner, but the woman controls the fabric of the family," almost to the point where the husband/father is a less significant figure in the household than the wife/mother is. (In fact, my dad chose to convert from his Italian-Baptist church to my mom's Catholic one before they got married, because, as he said, that's what a "gentleman" does.) This trend is still noticeable among younger families, even in the most egalitarian marriages, where both spouses are wage-earners.

Even among the most traditional Catholics I know, there's a sense of "oh, let the men/hierarchy say and do whatever they want; I'm going to go about my business my own way."

So, FJers, am I making a gross overgeneralization about region and patriarchy? Or not? I'd love to hear other folks' observations.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm not sure....I'm from Canada, and a lot of stuff that seems normal in the American South is totally foreign and mind boggling to me. Not teaching evolution in schools and having abstinence only education, for example, seems absolutely crazy, because it's just not done here. I think it's really the dominance of Christianity in the American South that is more prevalent. We don't have those ginormous mega churches, and asking someone where they go to church isn't a regular topic of conversation. Religion is seen as a private matter, and we don't have tracts in library books or people trying to convert you all the time. Talking about religion too much tends to be frowned upon and any organized prayer in schools, or any talk of Jesus to people you don't know just isn't done. So I do think there's a connection between region and level of Christian dominance and religion as part of very day life. No one around here would dream of trying to outlaw birth control, and being pro-life or anti- gay marriage isn't nearly as common or accepted here, though it still happens, politicians never admit to those views, because it would kill their political careers. As for the relationships between region and patriarchy, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment, but a higher level of religious observance, which from my observation does exist in the American South, often correlates to a higher level of patriarchal fundamentalist movements. The biggest example I can think of is that a family like the Maxwells would never come here, because they couldn't find anywhere even close to like minded to speak, and I don't think I've ever encountered someone even fundie-lite here, because people like that are rare here, if they exist at all.

[Arete]

Disclaimer: The following constitutes the opinions and observations of a 59-year-old Italian-American woman who was born in New York City but has lived her entire life, from the age of 2.5, in the same blue-collar New England town.

I've noticed, both during my tenure at FJ and before, that the vast majority of the restrictive, patriarchal fundamentalist movements in this country seem to have their roots in the American South. I've seen tinges of the "man as head of the family" thing in assorted writings about Southern people, to a far greater extent than what I've seen in those about Northeasterners.

In the generations leading up to mine (in Italian-American famiies and others), I've seen a lot of "the man is the breadwinner, but the woman controls the fabric of the family," almost to the point where the husband/father is a less significant figure in the household than the wife/mother is. (In fact, my dad chose to convert from his Italian-Baptist church to my mom's Catholic one before they got married, because, as he said, that's what a "gentleman" does.) This trend is still noticeable among younger families, even in the most egalitarian marriages, where both spouses are wage-earners.

Even among the most traditional Catholics I know, there's a sense of "oh, let the men/hierarchy say and do whatever they want; I'm going to go about my business my own way."

So, FJers, am I making a gross overgeneralization about region and patriarchy? Or not? I'd love to hear other folks' observations.

^That, that, ALL THAT! That was the normal arrangement in Greek-American families, and the ones I am most familiar with are in the Northeast. A man was/is expected to be a provider, but it was the wife/mother that controlled/controls the behavior standards of the family. If she demanded her children get an education/buy a house for the family/save money for X goal, by God that provider's money was going to be channeled into his wife's vision, and there was no praying about it involved. "Husband, we need $300 dollars in September to enroll the kids in Greek school, this is how we are getting there...."

I do not understand where this peculiarly "southern" fundy thing of the man being fawned over and driving the family to ruin because a woman must be obedient. Italian and Greek women coming from Italy and Greece generally had far fewer LEGAL protections in their home countries, but I have never met even Greek women in their 90s (and I know 15 of them, not all blood related) that practiced that kind of servility, regardless of their level of religious observance. Southern European women will throw their husbands under a bus in a heartbeat to secure good lives for their children. It doesn't compute why southern protestant fundy women will play footsie with their children's future ability to survive. It is NOT merely because they are religious. No. There is something else at work here, and I've never been able to nail it down, but I'm glad you opened dialogue Hane.

[SpeakNow]

As someone who has lived in the north a d south,

[Kitty]

I have lived in Virginia and North Carolina for 14 years, and yes, a lot of fundamentalist and patriarchal movements definitely have their roots in the south.

I think it also has a lot to do with culture too. Southern culture is very traditional. It will seem to be a few decades behind northern culture. And there's a reason the denomination is called the Southern Baptist Convention. The southern states are very Baptist. They also have far less Italian, German, etc. Influence than the northern states do. I have a feeling this might have something to do with British culture way back when, but I'm on my phone and the more I type the more fucked up my spelling gets.

So the appeal of Christian patriarchy is basically tradition. It's not so much biblical as it is southern tradition. It's supposed to be like going back to the good old days that in reality never were. Northerners seem to have dropped that illusion but southerners refuse to. Explains why so many fundies (phone wanted to correct to "gunfire," wtf) are either from the south or Midwest, which is also similar to the south culturally in some places.

[Hane]

Southern European women will throw their husbands under a bus in a heartbeat to secure good lives for their children.

Hmmm--I just realized that I've done that--TWICE. :whistle:

I have a fair number of Greek-American friends and acquaintances, and their family dynamics are pretty darn similar to mine.

(What does "Arete" mean to you? All I know is that it means "earring" in Spanish.)

[Arete]

It's not about religious observance. Try telling an Orthodox Jewish mother that her husband's every wish and command must be obeyed, ESPECIALLY in regard to how the children will be raised. They are certainly traditional.

[Arete]

Hmmm--I just realized that I've done that--TWICE. :whistle:

I have a fair number of Greek-American friends and acquaintances, and their family dynamics are pretty darn similar to mine.

(What does "Arete" mean to you? All I know is that it means "earring" in Spanish.)

"Arete" in Greek means "truth seeking". Don't ask me how that "Jo" got tacked on the end. I submitted my request to be "Arete" on this board, I got back an activation as "AreteJo". I figure I'd roll with it. ;)

[fedelm]

I'm in central Illinois which seems to be the start of the Bible belt and I'm definitely seeing the seeds of the patriarchal movement here. In my town of ~100,000 we have 2 megachurches (and 4 conservative Catholic churches). 1 megachurch very much promotes patriarchy, and I'm not sure the other one does. Talking about Jesus and conversion attempts are very much the norm here; as a Pagan I seem to be the target of more than my fair share.

[Anxious Girl]

I may be stereotyping; but I wonder if it has to do with the heat? It hear it gets unbearabley hot in the south during the summer; so maybe the heat makes them irritable and they think religion is a good way to get rid of the irritableness? In the middle-east, too, where riots happen. ( Again, please forgive me if I'm stereotyping. Any psychology majors willing to be able to explain how/why heat drives people crazy? AKA, don't blame her/him, it's just the heat getting to them. :oops: )

edit: fellow American who is mostly Irish-Italian! :P

[Arete]

It can get to 110 degrees in the shade in high summer in Sicily or Crete. Husband is still going under the bus if he puts his personal interests before his children's. :lol:

[Anxious Girl]

It can get to 110 degrees in the shade in high summer in Sicily or Crete. Husband is still going under the bus if he puts his personal interests before his children's. :lol:

:shock: Damn. And I have only been in central eastern Italy; where it's like 100 degrees almost every day in August. :whistle:

[Arete]

Good times, Anxious Girl, good times. :mrgreen: They don't even let the American raised weaklings out of the house until 6 PM, completely wrecks a family's reputation if there guests get heatstroke.

ETA-I do wonder if we get a little closer to the problem if we say there is a big discrepency in how formal education is viewed between the Northeast and the South. I don't want to say that education is not valued in the South, because that is a gross caricature. Let's just go with a lack of formal education is usually kept more on the down low in the Northeast. You sure as hell can't be elected to public office by bragging about it. :shock:

[rock_girl]

Education and possibly social status? I can't imagine that patriarchy rubbish flying in my circles. We all went to good schools, and I'd say 95% of us have completed at least a year of uni. Probably 85% have actually finished their degree(s). Spend some time with my extended family (I can't; they're awful) and you find their attitude toward gender roles and race, particularly, to be very dated. Most of them went to rotten schools and none of them have gone on to university. If you're educated and confident of your place in society you've no need to justify yourself with restrictive religious practices. Of course there are always going to be oddballs who lack the maturity or social skills to make it in the evil secular world, regardless of their education.

Eta - I have this idea (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the southern regions in the US are not especially fortunate. I've heard it said often that they receive far more government swag than the more liberal areas of the country.

Also, just a thought. But perhaps this patriarchy silliness is a way of separating yourself from those 'beneath' you? If you've got little to mark you out as special, then joining a fringe group and climbing its social ladders could be, well, almost a form of conspicuous consumption. The submission, the 'modest' skirts, large family size, all very public displays of difference, and in some people's minds, superiority.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I may be stereotyping; but I wonder if it has to do with the heat? It hear it gets unbearabley hot in the south during the summer; so maybe the heat makes them irritable and they think religion is a good way to get rid of the irritableness? In the middle-east, too, where riots happen. ( Again, please forgive me if I'm stereotyping. Any psychology majors willing to be able to explain how/why heat drives people crazy? AKA, don't blame her/him, it's just the heat getting to them. :oops: )

edit: fellow American who is mostly Irish-Italian! :P

I was going to get all what the hell, that's a crazy thing to say, but it's not worth it when even Sam Houston, one of the founding fathers of the Bluebonnet Curtain, seems to agree with you*. :lol:

Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives you may win Southern independence, but I doubt it. The North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche

*About the heat, anyway, not the religion.

[AnnieC 305]

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/01/souther ... s_revived/

Also

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/09/al ... ys-in.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/09/al ... -1640.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/09/al ... -1642.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/10/al ... -1725.html

I do wish she had gotten around to part 4. I have the book, I should re-read that chapter and see if I could come up with anything.

Not breaking the links because big site/uncaring bloggers

[Arete]

AnnieC 305, I would kiss your ring if we weren't virtual. Seriously, thank you for this reading material, I can't wait to go through it.

[AddieBelle]

I live in a southern state and some days I see fundies everywhere. Sometimes I won't see any for a while. My husband and I visited his brother who is stationed in Ohio and never saw even 1 fundie. So this is a huge generalization but it seems there are more fundies down here.

[Katydid]

Disclaimer: The following constitutes the opinions and observations of a 59-year-old Italian-American woman who was born in New York City but has lived her entire life, from the age of 2.5, in the same blue-collar New England town.

I've noticed, both during my tenure at FJ and before, that the vast majority of the restrictive, patriarchal fundamentalist movements in this country seem to have their roots in the American South. I've seen tinges of the "man as head of the family" thing in assorted writings about Southern people, to a far greater extent than what I've seen in those about Northeasterners.

In the generations leading up to mine (in Italian-American famiies and others), I've seen a lot of "the man is the breadwinner, but the woman controls the fabric of the family," almost to the point where the husband/father is a less significant figure in the household than the wife/mother is. (In fact, my dad chose to convert from his Italian-Baptist church to my mom's Catholic one before they got married, because, as he said, that's what a "gentleman" does.) This trend is still noticeable among younger families, even in the most egalitarian marriages, where both spouses are wage-earners.

Even among the most traditional Catholics I know, there's a sense of "oh, let the men/hierarchy say and do whatever they want; I'm going to go about my business my own way."

So, FJers, am I making a gross overgeneralization about region and patriarchy? Or not? I'd love to hear other folks' observations.

I'm also a New Englander, born and raised, though I no longer live there. My family is Catholic too, and I was raised with the same ideas that you described. I didn't hear anything about patriarchy at all until I moved to the South. I think it's a really, really uncommon thing up there.

[Sailing on Europa]

I am so curious about what patriarchy actually looks like in day-to-day life. I know the technical definition, but how does it actually play out? Obviously it varies by family; I'm just really curious. From the Duggars' show I don't feel like I have much insight about how things really are day in and day out when nobody is filming.

There's a woman who recently joined the lab I work in, and she mentioned which church she goes to. Based on the name of the church I suspected it was more on the fundie end of the spectrum, so I looked up its mission statement. Sure enough it's all about patriarchy and the bible as the literal word of god, etc. This woman wears pants and works in a molecular biology lab....I'm fascinated as to how she fits into that church and what she thinks about evolution (I'm almost positive she accepts the theory of evolution) and patriarchy.

[fedelm]

I am so curious about what patriarchy actually looks like in day-to-day life. I know the technical definition, but how does it actually play out? Obviously it varies by family; I'm just really curious.

From what I've seen of my fundie-lite patriarchal friends, there's a HUGE emphasis on sex. How men need it, how it's women's job to provide it. Seriously, all the fundie-lite people I know are totally obsessed with sex, posting about finding "Christian erotica" or how if you don't give it up enough men will "stray." I, an outspoken feminist, have been told repeatedly by my fundie-lite friends that I owe my husband sex. As in it's a biblical obligation. Doesn't matter that I'm not a Christian, I owe it to him.

A friend of mine is quasi-QF and getting divorced from her abusive husband--her church has sided with him and apparently she's been told repeatedly she should have fucked him more to prevent beatings. Her daughter just got married and is expecting and in the 2 months that she's been married she's already changed her birth plans and college plans. She's no longer going to be a missionary because of her headship.

I have one acquaintance who, as a spiritual exercise, went on a "no choice" date with her husband. She couldn't choose what to wear, where to go, what to eat. She wasn't allowed to correct him in anything whatsoever. And it was her idea!

Of my Catholic patriarchal friends and acquaintances, one only wears skirts and is pretty much pre-Vatican II in practice. Her priest refers to her as "further along in her Christian journey" or some other bullshit. A patriarchal Catholic friend from high school, male in this case, informed me I owe my husband my fertility (we just had our 2nd and final baby). Another Catholic friend refuses to accept the idea that we're done having kids and is weekly encouraging me to have a 3rd. Not strictly patriarchal there, but huge families and patriarchy tend to go together.

Anytime abortion comes up on my mom's group, a few of the more patriarchal husbands step in and mansplain. They don't contribute to any other thread, but we're expected to respect them because of the penis, or something.

One acquaintance, also from the mom's group, refers to her husband in her email address and her facebook name is in fact "Joe's Mary" (name changed). To be fair, her headship's FB name is "Mary's Joe".

[Arete]

That is very interesting fedelm. In modern Greek culture, the women due not hesitate to say "No". Probably do to the fact that for a great majority of modern Greek history we had very unreliable sources of birth control. Oh, hell, it basically came down to withdrawal and abstinence. :roll: :oops: Greek peasants considered a few children to be a blessing, and more than that a DISASTER. Not to mention the men had as much stake in keeping the number of children small as the women. More children always equaled needing more money, and more money often meant men had to go abroad and be seperated from their families to make a living.

Unlike Jim Bob Duggar or Gil Bates, they did not have the option of sitting on their asses while their wives fawned over them and the community gave food donations. If you were an able bodied man that needed things for the family, you were expected to work. Charity was for the old,disabled, and widows. There was no problem reconciling these attitudes with life in the American northeast.

[Minerva]

I'm not sure....I'm from Canada, and a lot of stuff that seems normal in the American South is totally foreign and mind boggling to me. Not teaching evolution in schools and having abstinence only education, for example, seems absolutely crazy, because it's just not done here. I think it's really the dominance of Christianity in the American South that is more prevalent. We don't have those ginormous mega churches, and asking someone where they go to church isn't a regular topic of conversation. Religion is seen as a private matter, and we don't have tracts in library books or people trying to convert you all the time. Talking about religion too much tends to be frowned upon and any organized prayer in schools, or any talk of Jesus to people you don't know just isn't done. So I do think there's a connection between region and level of Christian dominance and religion as part of very day life. No one around here would dream of trying to outlaw birth control, and being pro-life or anti- gay marriage isn't nearly as common or accepted here, though it still happens, politicians never admit to those views, because it would kill their political careers. As for the relationships between region and patriarchy, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment, but a higher level of religious observance, which from my observation does exist in the American South, often correlates to a higher level of patriarchal fundamentalist movements. The biggest example I can think of is that a family like the Maxwells would never come here, because they couldn't find anywhere even close to like minded to speak, and I don't think I've ever encountered someone even fundie-lite here, because people like that are rare here, if they exist at all.

Politicians admit to being anti-choice. There are way more openly anti-choice MPs than I'm comfortable with. Very few, however, have a conservative enough constituency that they can act on it and not get canned the next election. (Stephen Woodworth, anyone? That guy's an ass.) That doesn't stop many others from being unfortunate loudmouths about it, even though they're not the ones bringing forward the bills, plus all the ones who silently vote for every anti-choice motion or bill. On the other hand, some won't show up to reproductive rights-related votes because they're anti-choice but don't want their constituents to notice. Canada is, by a huge majority, pro-choice. The reason Parliament seems so evenly split* between reasonable people and the "every zygote is sacred" types is because older Christian white cis dudes dominate Parliament, whereas they do not dominate make up the majority of Canadians.

*Ok, according to [link=http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/list-antichoice-mps-may-11.html]ARCC[/link] only 35% of MPs are anti-choice.

...sorry

I know very little about the southern States, on the other hand, and look forward to hearing people's theories on why they're such...breeding grounds for fundamentalism.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Politicians admit to being anti-choice. There are way more openly anti-choice MPs than I'm comfortable with. Very few, however, have a conservative enough constituency that they can act on it and not get canned the next election. (Stephen Woodworth, anyone? That guy's an ass.) That doesn't stop many others from being unfortunate loudmouths about it, even though they're not the ones bringing forward the bills, plus all the ones who silently vote for every anti-choice motion or bill. On the other hand, some won't show up to reproductive rights-related votes because they're anti-choice but don't want their constituents to notice. Canada is, by a huge majority, pro-choice. The reason Parliament seems so evenly split* between reasonable people and the "every zygote is sacred" types is because older Christian white cis dudes dominate Parliament, whereas they do not dominate make up the majority of Canadians.

*Ok, according to [link=http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/list-antichoice-mps-may-11.html]ARCC[/link] only 35% of MPs are anti-choice.

...sorry

I know very little about the southern States, on the other hand, and look forward to hearing people's theories on why they're such...breeding grounds for fundamentalism.

The bolded is what I meant to say, they can't really do anything about it. I did know about the statistic of 35% of MPs being anti-choice, which I thought in the Southern states, that number seems a lot greater, though I have no idea if that's true, just my impression. The scary anti-choice laws some states pass would never work here, though there' have been some anti-choice activism and advertising that has made me uncomfortable lately.

[Coconut Flan]

I grew up in the south and at that time and place, it was more a cultural thing not as much religious. My mother has horror stories of when it was worse and some really crazy ones from her mother. Things like only men sitting down at the dinner table and women couldn't eat until the men finished. The children fought over the leftovers and scraps.

I think as women gained rights and more and more women refused to accept the unequal situation, religion increasingly became a handy tool to preserve the patriarchal view.

Not all areas and all men were into the patriarchal view, but enough were that it made me sure I wasn't going to stay in the area anywhere near my home town.