Patriarchy and region--Any thoughts?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I remember reading about "honor cultures". Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter about it in his book Outliers.

Even though there isn't really any geographic or religious connection, there are some similarities between Southern fundie culture and Middle Eastern culture when it comes to patriarchy - most likely due to this "culture of honor" thing.

I'm from ElphibaGalinda's area, and Southern fundie-style patriarchy is pretty foreign to me....except when it comes to some of my Middle Eastern clients and inlaws.

While patriarchy is fading fast in the younger generations, it was very much present in the Iraqi Jewish community. So many odd things about my FIL made sense when I met his mother and siblings. [He is the 2nd youngest of 11, so he had some of the values of the older generation.] The oldest son became a second father in the family, even toward his older sisters. One sister told me that she still resented the fact that her younger brother told her not to become a teacher. She grew into a pretty tough old lady with attitude (which is why she was my favorite). My FIL has been quite hung up on honor - presenting the right image, being treated with appropriate deference by the rest of the family, seeing any questioning/failure to take advice as a slight, etc. It's been a struggle to see him try to adjust to the fact that his wife and kids (and daughters-in-law) were embracing different values.

It's interesting what you right about Greek and Italian cultures. There are aspects of Greek, Italian and Jewish cultures that are very similar, such as the idea of a mama ruling the roost in the home and kitchen, and doling out equal parts good food and guilt. My Italian colleagues and I would argue over who's culture was more like My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

[Hane]

Growing up in New England, the church had very, very little to do with our social lives. We had friends at school, through community organizations, Girl Scouts, the Women's Club, etc. My parents had friends through their social clubs and the YMCA and work, too. We also lived in the same town that my family immigrated to about 80-90 years ago, so everyone knows everyone. Church was something we did once a week, and the kids went to CCD on Tuesdays or Wednesdays until they made their Confirmations in HS.

That 's pretty much been my experience in the Northeast as well. Strangely enough, I'm involved in far more church-based socializing now that I've joined the local UU, a small congregation of some 85 members. (Some members half-jokingly refer to us as "a social club with very high ethical standards.)

I've always seen a lot of what I cal "punch-card Catholicism": folks attend Mass on Sunday and send their kids to religious ed., but that's about it for involvement. This may be because of the Catholic teaching about missing Mass=mortal sin, and because congregations tend to be so large that many people feel individuals can't make much of a difference.

[Kaylee]

It's been a while since I've read it, but there's a book called The Sword of the Lord by Andrew Himes that talks a lot about the growth of fundamentalism and why it took hold so much in the south (the author is the grandson of John R. Rice who was a major fundamental baptist leader, he was raised fundie and then rejected it).

He ties a lot of it to the Civil war and the myth of the "lost cause" (the idea that there was this wonderful culture and way of life in the pre Civil War south, similar to what Vision Forum promotes. It made a lot of sense to me - there are South who were descended from English Puritans & Scots-Irish Presbyterians who combined religion and politics in order to defend slavery and convince themselves that God was on their side during the Civil War. After the War, the south saw itself as under attack and facing threats to its economy, culture, politics, and overall way of life, so it made people a lot more vulnerable to a very rigid and defensive theology. This made it easy for people to cling to fundamentalism and this idea that there was one true inerrant version of the Bible and only one try and right way to practice religion. With theological modernism and then the Civil Rights movement, it became a way for people to fight against what they till saw as a culture war and attack on their way of life. This is probably why so much of fundamentalism seems to be a fight to hold onto or recapture some sort of imagined past (pre Civil War America, the fifties as seen on TV, etc).

I also thing the church being at the center of so many community things does have a lot to do with it. It's the way people seem to meet and relate to eachother around here. You meet people and they ask where you go to church or invite you to go to theirs. Family reunions, community events, and all sorts of other things happen at churches (even voting and sometimes political town hall meetings). There's also a lot of prejudice in many parts of the south against people who aren't religious and the flipside of that is that many people are suspicious of any sort of criticism of what they consider mainstream Christian beliefs, so people might consider fundamentalists a little odd or overly religious but people will usually go pretty deep into it before they get a WTF type reaction from anybody.

[JenniferJuniper]

Growing up in New England, the church had very, very little to do with our social lives. We had friends at school, through community organizations, Girl Scouts, the Women's Club, etc. My parents had friends through their social clubs and the YMCA and work, too. We also lived in the same town that my family immigrated to about 80-90 years ago, so everyone knows everyone. Church was something we did once a week, and the kids went to CCD on Tuesdays or Wednesdays until they made their Confirmations in HS.

Same here, but CCD for me was usually Monday night or afternoon and usually held in someone's home. My mother was a first grade CCD for years. She went through the little booklet with them, then they made artwork with glitter and glue while eating her home made cupcakes. No real indoctrination went on; her goal was only to get them to repeat Our Father and Hail Mary. Once I had a Protestant CCD teacher because they couldn't find anyone else to take the 7th graders that year.

As an atheist, I can say one good thing about growing up Catholic in New England is that most people paid no real attention to the Church. Unfortunately some of the few in my Parrish who did had some bad experiences with a couple of the priests, and I'm sad to say the general consensus was "what did you expect?". This was of course years before the scandals broke and anyone knew the extent of the abuse, but even as kids, we knew there was something wrong with a number of them. One time the Parrish priest pulled over and offered my brother and me a ride and we ran like hell away from him.

[entonces]

Raine pretty much said what I wanted to say with this, "There's also a lot of prejudice in many parts of the south against people who aren't religious and the flipside of that is that many people are suspicious of any sort of criticism of what they consider mainstream Christian beliefs, so people might consider fundamentalists a little odd or overly religious but people will usually go pretty deep into it before they get a WTF type reaction from anybody." I delurked to post on this topic so I shall forge ahead.

I lived in rural Northeast from ten to when I moved out of the country after college. Since I left the country I am considered "exotic" or something and am facebook friends with tons of people from my area that I don't know that well in real life. I really wish you guys could see my Facebook news feed.

People that live their life pretty openly against main pillars of Christianity will post multiple things about abortion with very religious slants. A current favorite is something about eagle eggs being protected but it is perfectly ok to kill babies. There is extremely open postings about "whoopins". I mean cute little cartoons about giving your kids spankings. The Famy type archetype is alive and well. There are so many girls that I honest to goodness can't figure out what they do! They might have a job at the Sonic for a little bit. Then go to the local junior college for a semester followed by huge chunks of nothing. These girls personal lives are definitely not SAHD material however. I notice people going through phases of church going. There will be posts filled with expletives about how Jesus loves them so you need to back off their man. And, of course, the random bible verse quoting. I graduated with 30 other kids five years ago. There are five of us that have completed college degrees and there is only one other who is still taking classes. Only a few more are not married or do not have children.

I say all of this to say that in my area saying you are a Christian is just simply what one does. Very few of these people will follow any of the conservative Christian precepts that would actually impact their lives (like not being drunk or not having premarital sex) they will however fall over backward to be in good graces with the people who do. They will defend these patriarchal people without a second thought because of this knee-jerk reaction to be Christian. Also, this is pretty easy because a few of the things that are objected to in patriarchy are common among people there ex: not going to college, daughters living at home, pro-life, the early marriages, the multiple children early...

I am not sure how coherently I made my point but this is probably long enough for a first post :?

Edited because how could I not mention all that hate towards gay people????? Chick-fil-a wishes it had a store near my area but people drove so they didn't miss all the business.

[Witsec5]

Welcome entonces. Great first post I might add.

My opinion is that insecure poor white men are in abundant supply in the American South for a myriad of reasons. Even without the fundie xtian overlay, the old saying that applied to that group (at least when I was growing up) was they "keep their women barefoot and pregnant." Dressing the mistreatment of women as part of a Christian belief system is just another wicked way of making abuse socially acceptable. Abuse is abuse and the war on women is alive and well especially in the south.

[muffynbear]

I grew up in the south and wonder if part of the reason has to do with the extent to which the church is the center of social life. It wouldn't be uncommon in a lot of places for all your non-work get-togethers with friends to be church related in some way. If you don't go to church, how would you find friends? And how would your friends hang out with you? This gives the church an inordinate amount of power. Is it not this way in the NE?

Proud New Englander (I was a Texan for 5 years). It is my own experience that church is more of a weekend thing. Friends are met through school, work or other social functions. Church was just another chore for me growing up. Also, in Massachusetts, education is a priority here. We value education moreso than religion. At least, IMO church is secondary.

[Olive Plant]

I think patriarchial cultures can pop up just about everywhere. Mark Driscol is in Seattle, which is otherwise pretty liberal. Doug Wilson is in Idaho in a college town. neither of them are fundie in the same way the Duggers are fundie, but they are definitely patriarchial and have a wide influence in the fundie-type culture.

[Arete]

The Greek Orthodox church outside Greece has a huge cultural/social role with Greeks. In the US Northeast, it is not a mere religious institution. New immigrants were always drawn there regardless of their level of religious observance as a safe zone to perpetuate their culture, as a place they could make business ties, as a buffer for their homesickness. They have also functioned as the only place most Greek-Americans could gain literacy in Greek, and here we have a key. Education is prized in Greek-American households. It is considered shameful not to secure as much education as possible for your children.

Going to the library is as routine as going to the grocery store. You wanted your kids out of the manual labor you did. You went to the Community House, the Little League, and any free concerts your county offered whether you wanted to or not. :roll: Liberal doses of guilt were regularly handed out to keep you on track. Try hearing "I don't care that I (your mother/father/both) am sweating on my feat in a kitchen/painting houses/waiting tables/have my head up a car engine, as long as YOU never have to", several times a year when it looked like you were starting to backslide on your academics. You fall into line and start studying with religious zeal. No plumbing line necessary.

Your living side by side with immigrants and 1st, 2nd generation Italian/Polish/Jewish/Irish Americans. It exposes you to a greater section of American society outside your parish whose struggles you can relate to. They, along with your parish, become the basis for your lifelong friendships. You don't grow up with any frame of reference for the cultural servility of super fundie southern women today. Almost everyone's mother worked at least part time outside the home. Religions mixed because we kept our dogmas and practices to ourselves. I would slap my sibs stupid for their own good if I ever caught them making those vacuous eyes at their husbands like Kelly Bates and Michelle Duggar do. A man who decided to up and quit working so he could micromange the family? Utterly contemptable, you wouldn't be able to show your face at the gas station, much less sell that decision to other men.

[crosed]

I've lived in New England my entire life, but recently spent a year in TN. It was like culture shock in some ways. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this topic, though; why church/religion is practiced so differently in the South. I just wanted to point out that in New England, we not only have immigrants that settled here generations ago to diversify the population, but every fall, Boston sees an influx of out-of-towners coming here to school. And not just people from other areas of the country, but from around the world. They're usually pretty intelligent people, attending the likes of Harvard or MIT. I think the diversity of the population has something to do with the contrasts between the North and the South.

[Arete]

The south has Duke University and Chapel Hill among other world class institiutions that I can't remember off the top of my head. Not to mention Research Triangle Park in North Carolina and a NASA installation in Florida. Those dogs can hunt.

[crosed]

The south has Duke University and Chapel Hill among other world class institiutions that I can't remember off the top of my head. Not to mention Research Triangle Park in North Carolina and a NASA installation in Florida. Those dogs can hunt.

Right. I didn't mean to imply that the South was full of idiots or lacked decent educational institutions. I guess what I mean is, up here, I think the academic community is more concentrated. There are a lot of people in a small area whereas in the South (at least in my experience there), there's more room for everything.

[Mango]

I have one acquaintance who, as a spiritual exercise, went on a "no choice" date with her husband. She couldn't choose what to wear, where to go, what to eat. She wasn't allowed to correct him in anything whatsoever. And it was her idea!

Dude, around here, we just admit we're kinky when we do shit like that.

[Rosa]

For some reason, this subject has been on my mind a lot. I've lived in every region of the country except the north east and, yes, the south is different. The south is very traditional. In some ways that is good and yet, in a lot of other ways it holds us back. There is also a stubborn streak running through the south that is very resistant to change. I'm not certain how you change that type of ingrained thinking.

I just want to say that I don't think modern Evangelism is traditional at all, or at least it's only traditional for a small subset (who used to be pretty despised). Evangelical churches didn't get linked to elites until at least the 1930s, and even then the national political structure just laughed at the "homespun" local Southern politicians.

The elites of the Old South were patriarchal and religious, but so were the elites in old New England - the 19th century yankee Congregationalist culture was actually much more personally controlling in religious terms than in the southern churches of the same time period, in terms of dress/speech/attendance. If you read northern literature about the south from that time, they considered the lax drinking, smoking, and dress habits of Southerners to be a sign that the degradations of slavery had infected all of Southern Christendom.

It seems like the political "southern strategy" where the Republicans decided to pick up all the racist voters after the Democrats supported the Civil Rights Act has more to do with this public, politicized churchiness than some sort of natural tendency to cling to "tradition" - religion became a public "I'm with you" to populist anti-integration whites. I mean, if patriarchy were natural to Southerners because of heat or native traditionalism, wouldn't the Black churches be just as bad? And they're not.

We see it in our blogging fundies a lot, the link to white supremacism, honoring Confederate generals, hating education, insisting on hierarchy in the home. It's a big package bundle.

I'll also make a case for many, many, many of the people who talk the fundy talk in public not being fundies at all - a mainstream Southern Baptist may use the exact same kind of language to talk about her marriage and childraising as a hardcore no-pants beat-the-children IFB wife, but they usually don't mean the same thing at all. I have a friend whose Baptist parents were ideologically QF but only had 2 children, talk the talk about not sparing the rod but never spanked, believe that the intelligence, compassion, and drive of their children is all because they prayed over them in the womb, but also supported them in getting educations, good jobs, and supportive egalitarian husbands. There's a cultural mandate to give lip service to a lot of these things, and I think people sincerely "believe" them, but when they contradict reality a lot of people just go with what actually works. That means our snarkworthy fundies can seem like they're winning the culture, but it's an illusion.

[formerlyfundie]

I've lived in the south (TN) my entire life, and there are literally churches on every corner, Christians schools down every road, and plenty of Fundamentalist goodness to be shared. Even though there are a good amount of "modern, hip, non denominational" churches sprouting up, most are still your mega Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ or Catholic churches. There is actually a "proud IFB" church within a few miles of where we live, they used to have links to ATI and Gothard on their website (still might, we actually visited there a few times and it was honestly boring, I've never been a big fan of hymns or thought "classical" music was more holy than any other type of worship music :roll: . We are attending a pretty well balanced church now, just enough tradition, just enough current considerations and applications to teaching- and they have great music that my toddlers can "jump for joy" to since we all know dancing is sin :dance: )

We lived in NC on and off for a while when my husband was in the military, and there were several houses that put up GIANT Ten Commandments in their front yards around this time of year and would leave them until all the holidays were over.

All I can say is that I know of plenty of girls who go to college, but idealize that "Suzy Homemaker" life and quit it all to get married and have children young, and I have friends who literally are miserable because they aren't married yet and feel like they will be old maids. I'm a SAHM, in my mid 20's, and have been married almost 5 years- and so many of my friends the same age absolutely are DYING to get married and have kids (basically have my life as they always say). I know that at least in my neck of the woods, the idea of getting married young, staying home, having babies, and being active in a church is very common if not expected.

And aren't the Botkins from TN or at least live here? It's also Anna Sofia's B-day according to FB...