Mormonism in America

[Arete]

My childhood RCC church had home visits during 'pledge' month. Families discussed finances with the priest (who drove a big black Lincoln, lived in a huge house with a housekeeper and had no expenses). Family 'heads' interacted with the priest about the amount of the annual donation and were supposed to come to agreement.

Whoa. :shock:

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese came up with this "stewardship" plan about 10 years ago. Got some big advertising firm to make up the glossies, had every priest read the missive on the same Sunday that all of a sudden we were going to start tithing "old Testament" style (10% of income). This was absolutely unprecedented for us. There was such an uproar from the laity that leadership had to abandon this shiny new plan about 2 years later. It kind of disgusted me that we have so many theological issues that need attention that no one has time to address, but the minute you reach into our wallets, it's war. :oops:

So we are back to a few hundred dollars a year in membership fees, which they are only capable of enforcing if you want to marry or baptize in the church. Then you have to cough up the last 3 years of your dues. They are no allowed to say no to funerals.

[MissBeaufort]

My two cents on why Mormonism makes me uncomfortable:

Mr. Beaufort grew up Mormon and left the church for a myriad of reasons, but the biggest one was the therapy (once a week for quite some time) that his Bishop and parents forced him to go through for a "masturbation addiction". He was 16 and constantly under pressure to "break his addiction" so he could go to the temple. He was given advice that ranged from "think about other things", "distract yourself and have a sandwich" and- my personal favourite - "tie your hand to the bed post". At some point along the line, he decided that this was ridiculous and started on the path towards becoming an agnostic/atheist. Along the way, he started doing research about the history of the church and now is an avowed ex-mormon. His family still hasn't forgiven him (or me, because they blame me for luring him away with my ebil temptations of sex and independent thinking).

I grew up in a very liberal, protestant church and the amount of private information that he was expected to share with his bishop always baffled me. I had never come across anything like it. Nothing was ever too personal- earnings, tithing, feelings, thoughts, sexual activity. And to convince him to share all of this, there was the constant promise of a temple recommend as a reward. Because after all, without a temple recommend, you won't be joined with your family to be with them forever!1!11

I don't know how much Mitt Romney is required to share with the church, or what the church can withhold from him if they decide they don't like his policies. But given my experience with this sort of thing, I am a bit touchy about LDS leadership and the amount of control that they try to exert over their member's lives.

[deelaem]

My two cents on why Mormonism makes me uncomfortable:

Mr. Beaufort grew up Mormon and left the church for a myriad of reasons, but the biggest one was the therapy (once a week for quite some time) that his Bishop and parents forced him to go through for a "masturbation addiction". He was 16 and constantly under pressure to "break his addiction" so he could go to the temple. He was given advice that ranged from "think about other things", "distract yourself and have a sandwich" and- my personal favourite - "tie your hand to the bed post". At some point along the line, he decided that this was ridiculous and started on the path towards becoming an agnostic/atheist. Along the way, he started doing research about the history of the church and now is an avowed ex-mormon. His family still hasn't forgiven him (or me, because they blame me for luring him away with my ebil temptations of sex and independent thinking).

I grew up in a very liberal, protestant church and the amount of private information that he was expected to share with his bishop always baffled me. I had never come across anything like it. Nothing was ever too personal- earnings, tithing, feelings, thoughts, sexual activity. And to convince him to share all of this, there was the constant promise of a temple recommend as a reward. Because after all, without a temple recommend, you won't be joined with your family to be with them forever!1!11

I don't know how much Mitt Romney is required to share with the church, or what the church can withhold from him if they decide they don't like his policies. But given my experience with this sort of thing, I am a bit touchy about LDS leadership and the amount of control that they try to exert over their member's lives.

Very interesting! Any chance Mr. Miss Beaufort would come here and answer questions? :?: :)

I'm so happy he escaped from that. That's just sick - tying his hand to the bedpost! And yeah, the temple recommend is the Holy Grail of Mormonism. Without it, it's Ghetto heaven for you.

I was discussing this with my sister, and she pointed out that the danger behind Romney being president is that Mormons will always act on the orders of the High Council. So with that in mind, who will really be running the country? I'd love to hear Mr. B's thoughts on that.

[Arete]

MissBeaufort, I'm very sorry the Mister had to take that, and I'm glad he got out.

[Coconut Flan]

So sorry to hear about things like that happening. I'm so glad he escaped.

[MissBeaufort]

Very interesting! Any chance Mr. Miss Beaufort would come here and answer questions? :?: :)

I'm so happy he escaped from that. That's just sick - tying his hand to the bedpost! And yeah, the temple recommend is the Holy Grail of Mormonism. Without it, it's Ghetto heaven for you.

I was discussing this with my sister, and she pointed out that the danger behind Romney being president is that Mormons will always act on the orders of the High Council. So with that in mind, who will really be running the country? I'd love to hear Mr. B's thoughts on that.

He'd be quite happy to answer any questions, so I'll be sure to pass them on. :)

I'm also glad that he left - mostly for his sake, obviously, but a little bit for mine as well. We lived in a fairly small town and once we started dating, it felt like "MORMON MISSIONARIES WELCOME HERE" had been painted on my forehead. Every time a new set came to town, which was every couple of months, they would be sure to drop by where I worked. They would hand me some pamphlets, ask me how Christmas/Thanksgiving/Valentine's Day/Summer Holidays had been with Mr. B (which was always like "... Good? I don't... Know who you are...") and then earnestly ask me to organize a meeting with them. They all seemed nice, so seeing them again and again and turning down their offers got very awkward after a while. I was relieved when they stopped coming around after he left the church.

I asked about the high council, and he said that Romney would have sworn an oath to obey his leaders and never say anything bad about them during the temple ceremony. So technically, he would have to act on the orders of the prophet, yes. But Mr. B also noted that it's about as binding as any other oath that people make, so obviously lots of moderate mormons don't take it very seriously. Romney doesn't seem the type to be bound by any promises or oaths, so he's not that worried about it.

[cupertino]

I am new to this board but posted on the old yuku board, it's great to have found this board again. Sorry about the length of this post.

I live in an area that recently has seen a lot of Mormon missionary activity. I always let Mormon missionaries in because I figure they get the door slammed in their face/otherwise rejected all day. I usually offer a drink, one time I offered tea, (doh, now I know better). I guess I'm genuinely curious about people and welcome the opportunity to meet someone different. Last time they came it was two girls and I ended up mostly leading the conversation and needed a polite way to end it, so I invited them to see the local Catholic church next door and to my surprise they said they would like to see it. The church has famous stained glass windows from Germany and it's always open so I gave them a little tour and explained who was depicted in the windows and statues etc. After the tour I basically said that if they were ever hot or tired they could come here if they need a quiet place to rest and think because the door is always open. I swear I wasn't proslytizing or anything, just concerned for their welfare in what I thought was a sucky job-I mean who gets assigned to rural Indiana? -not guys like Romney. The two girls thanked me and left then. Later I told the priest about it and asked if that was ok if I told them they could rest there if they needed to. He said sure it was ok but said they would probably never be back. I asked why and he said they would report what they did all day and when they mentioned that they went to a Catholic church they would be forbidden to come back. I'm not sure if that is the practice in all missionary assignments? They used to visit me regularly and now missionaries haven't been back in years. Maybe if there is a big map they use, there is a big X over my house now. At any rate, if you don't want missionaries coming around, invite them for a tour of your church.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I am new to this board but posted on the old yuku board, it's great to have found this board again. Sorry about the length of this post.

I think I remember you from the Carrie drama!

[cupertino]

Yes, for good or bad, that's me. I just went to the rheumatologist in Richmond and I thought of her as I passed her neighborhood. I googled her and found this new board. I signed on with the same name as before, I figure I might as well. I never saw her again after that day.

[notablesquid]

My two cents on why Mormonism makes me uncomfortable:

Mr. Beaufort grew up Mormon and left the church for a myriad of reasons, but the biggest one was the therapy (once a week for quite some time) that his Bishop and parents forced him to go through for a "masturbation addiction". He was 16 and constantly under pressure to "break his addiction" so he could go to the temple. He was given advice that ranged from "think about other things", "distract yourself and have a sandwich" and- my personal favourite - "tie your hand to the bed post". At some point along the line, he decided that this was ridiculous and started on the path towards becoming an agnostic/atheist. Along the way, he started doing research about the history of the church and now is an avowed ex-mormon. His family still hasn't forgiven him (or me, because they blame me for luring him away with my ebil temptations of sex and independent thinking).

Holy crap, MissBeaufort! It seems as if MrB's bishop read this handy guide: http://www.moonmac.com/Mormon_masturbation.html (no need to break this link)

The guide is chock full of absurdity and contradictory advice and I've laughed about it many times over the years while hoping that no one ever took it seriously. How awful that MrB was subject to this shit.

[shedemei]

Well, that makes it all swell, then.

Absolutely. There's probably no stress involved in finding your soulmate in the Celestial kingdom. Single women are probably just assigned to a man without any of the heartbreak of dating!

[shedemei]

Holy crap, MissBeaufort! It seems as if MrB's bishop read this handy guide: http://www.moonmac.com/Mormon_masturbation.html (no need to break this link)

" 13. Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity."

Hm, I suspect many of the boys with this "problem" are already starting each day with an enthusiastic activity.

[freejoytoo]

Don't bishops interview kids in their early teens about whether or not they have had sexual thoughts and masturbated? Sick. Sorry Mr B had to go through that.

What essentially pisses me off about Mormonism, aside from the invasive nature, is that it is essentually Christinaity rewritten with America at the centre, so it gives people a reason to worship America and not feel bad about it. It is so patently made up and further more everything about it has been proven to be false yet people still pay into the church day after day saying they know it's true!

[pomology]

Don't bishops interview kids in their early teens about whether or not they have had sexual thoughts and masturbated? Sick. Sorry Mr B had to go through that.

What essentially pisses me off about Mormonism, aside from the invasive nature, is that it is essentually Christinaity rewritten with America at the centre, so it gives people a reason to worship America and not feel bad about it. It is so patently made up and further more everything about it has been proven to be false yet people still pay into the church day after day saying they know it's true!

That's actually what I find so fascinating about Mormonism. But I am an American history nerd and the fact that Mormonism is SO American is precisely what makes interesting from a historical viewpoint. Plus, it started out as part of the same religious movement (the Second Great Awakening) as my college, which pretty much is the exact opposite of Mormonism, so I find it extra fascinating.

I also think it's hilarious. I mean, seriously, Jesus in the Americas? What was Joseph Smith smoking when he thought that shit up?

[Samantha]

Don't bishops interview kids in their early teens about whether or not they have had sexual thoughts and masturbated? Sick. Sorry Mr B had to go through that.

Yeah that does happen, based on the bishop. The majority of my youth we had one bishop, who was AWESOME. Seriously, if he would have been bishop when everything happened to me, I probably wouldn't have become disillusioned with the church and left. That's a story for another time though.

Basically when giving me temple interviews, my bishop would never get too personal. He was just a nice guy who wanted to make sure I was doing okay. However, one of other members of the bishopric would do interviews at Wednesday night activities and he made the interviews very personal. I recall one time he asked me if I kept the law of chastity. I said yes. But then he asked if I truly knew what chastity was. And I again said yes. So he asked me to describe in detail what chastity was. I was so uncomfortable. I was alone, in a room with no windows and a shut door with an old man asking me to describe sex to him.

[deelaem]

Yes, for good or bad, that's me. I just went to the rheumatologist in Richmond and I thought of her as I passed her neighborhood. I googled her and found this new board. I signed on with the same name as before, I figure I might as well. I never saw her again after that day.

Does cupertino refer to the town? Cuz I lived there as a teenager, deep in Apple country. Represent! :lol:

[Gizmola]

I know this was pages and pages back but this cracked.me.up.

I don't believe that Heavenly Father changed his mind about African Americans receiving the priesthood, but that He was waiting to reveal this until humans were ready to accept it. A tumblr that I follow wrote out a really well thought answer to this that is much more eloquent than mine, and if I can find it I will edit it into here.

So the omnipotent creator of the universe is worried that the puny humans who worship him won't heed his words? Um, isn't he all-knowing and supposed to be worshipped? Aren't the puny humans supposed to do anything and everything the big God says? So God thinks that on this ONE issue he was sure the humans would revolt? "Let's see. I convinced them to have multiple wives, to give the church 10% of what they make, that an angel appeared to man and a man can read tablets with a stone in his hat. That stuff they WILL believe. But the idea of AAs being no different than white people. Yeah, I don't think they'll buy it. Let's wait a few years on that one."

That's just stupid. I'm usually not very harsh and try to be understanding, but that logic, or lack of logic, is downright stupid. I worry about the capabilities of someone daft enough to buy that bit of horseshit.

I also think it's hilarious. I mean, seriously, Jesus in the Americas? What was Joseph Smith smoking when he thought that shit up?

Honestly, from an atheist's standpoint, I don't think Jesus in America is any more outrageous than Jesus in Jerusalem. At least, if we agree that "Jesus" is "the son of God." The idea of a "son of God" seems rather hilarious in and of itself. Which reminds me of an almost-argument I had with my boss.

My boss is a devout Lutheran (whichever synod Lutheran is all gay-friendly and liberal as he's gay and liberal, etc.). He's studying to be a minister/priest (sorry, don't know what they call them in Lutheranism). He knows I'm an atheist. We were talking politics at work and he started to make fun of Mitt Romney because of the magic underwear. I laughed and did so because I think magic underwear is weird. Then he started to diss Mitt because of the "Jesus in America" thing. I stopped laughing and asked why that was so far-fetched. He rolled his eyes and started talking about how there's 2000 years of history backing up Christianity as opposed to just a hundred or so years with Mormonism. Thus, Mormonism is wrong while Christianity/Lutheranism is right. I pointed out that the Jews can say that about Christianity -that their history is longer. And what about the Romans? Where they right if they called Christians "fruitcakes" because their religion was new? Basically, how can anyone religious claim THEY know the truth and everyone else is wrong? Don't ALL religions require a suspension of disbelief and a reliance on faith, i.e. belief without any proof?

[deelaem]

I know this was pages and pages back but this cracked.me.up.

A thousand thumbs up and a muffin basket for you!

[pomology]

Honestly, from an atheist's standpoint, I don't think Jesus in America is any more outrageous than Jesus in Jerusalem. At least, if we agree that "Jesus" is "the son of God." The idea of a "son of God" seems rather hilarious in and of itself.

I actually agree with this. BUT, perhaps this is unfair of me, but I feel more forgiving for whatever stone age people (or whatever age we were in then) wrote the Bible grappling with how to understand the universe and whatever people 2000 years ago wrote about some crucified dude who actually lived in their own times (assuming Jesus was actually alive), than a guy living in the 1800s who made up a thousand years of history or something.

While I don't think what's written in the Bible is necessarily any more preposterous than the book of Mormon, I think that the people who wrote it, while misguided and ignorant in many ways were not quite as full of shit as Joseph Smith.

[Gizmola]

Gizmola wrote:

I actually agree with this. BUT, perhaps this is unfair of me, but I feel more forgiving for whatever stone age people (or whatever age we were in then) wrote the Bible grappling with how to understand the universe and whatever people 2000 years ago wrote about some crucified dude who actually lived in their own times (assuming Jesus was actually alive), than a guy living in the 1800s who made up a thousand years of history or something.

While I don't think what's written in the Bible is necessarily any more preposterous than the book of Mormon, I think that the people who wrote it, while misguided and ignorant in many ways were not quite as full of shit as Joseph Smith.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. If I decided to write The Book of Gizmola because I said it was divinely revealed to me through the rainbow unicorn that glided into my pasture while the sun rose at midnight and the stars illuminated the moon I would fully expect to be involuntarily committed instead of followed. Or at least more heavily medicated.

I just find it interesting that the longer the span of time from a "holy revelation" of some sort people start giving it more credence. Plus, their own background informs their suspension of disbelief in regards to their own religious beliefs but feels no problem seeing the absurdity in others. I have never read history of religion closely enough to know if it's true, but I gather the Romans thought Christians were batshit crazy, etc.

I guess as we've learned more about the universe, science, evolution, etc. I am still bewildered as to the need for religion as well as how people can be really, really logical and rational about everything else - in fact, see the absurdity of blind faith in others, but still feel the need to cling to their own brand of faith. Perhaps I'm rambling - I guess, in a nutshell, I don't understand the concept of faith at all.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh, I understand what you're saying. If I decided to write The Book of Gizmola because I said it was divinely revealed to me through the rainbow unicorn that glided into my pasture while the sun rose at midnight and the stars illuminated the moon I would fully expect to be involuntarily committed instead of followed. Or at least more heavily medicated.

I am willing to whole-heartedly believe in The Book of Gizmola. Where should I mail my cheque?

[Arete]

Gizmola, faith is intertwined with culture. For a lot of people, giving up their faith is the same thing as giving up their culture. It's not that you are invested so much in the exact theology, but you are invested in your history.

[Gizmola]

Gizmola, faith is intertwined with culture. For a lot of people, giving up their faith is the same thing as giving up their culture. It's not that you are invested so much in the exact theology, but you are invested in your history.

Fair enough. Food for thought for me. Sorry to have derailed the thread. Carry on. I shall ponder the depths of my ignorance quietly in the corner. :)

[holierthanyou]

Gizmola, faith is intertwined with culture. For a lot of people, giving up their faith is the same thing as giving up their culture. It's not that you are invested so much in the exact theology, but you are invested in your history.

Very well worded, AreteJo. I agree, and I think the less "mainstream"/more of a minority the religion is in that country's dominant culture, than the more closely intertwined the concept of religion and culture become. E.g. Mormons, flds, Amish, non-Christian religions in the U.S., etc.

[pomology]

Gizmola, faith is intertwined with culture. For a lot of people, giving up their faith is the same thing as giving up their culture. It's not that you are invested so much in the exact theology, but you are invested in your history.

This, too.