Mormonism in America

[dawbs]

Please, be annoyed all you like. I'm annoyed by my church quite often. But I still reserve the right to correct misinformation.

Not to be (excessively) pendantic, but this right here is why *I* get annoyed w/ 'faith defenders' on FJ.

Because there wasn't 'mis-information' to correct. People were sharing experiences. You had a different one. Good for you.

That doesn't make their experience 'misinformation' for you to correct.

It's condescending and obnoxious to insist that your experience is the typical/correct one and other people's experiences aren't. Which is what, essentially, you said here.

[freejoytoo]

Because there are a lot of things I still love about the Church, despite everything that's bad. I may eventually leave when I get to the bottom of my soul searching on the issue and read some more, but I'm not quite there yet.

Do you mean things such as community? Can that not be found outside the church?

I used to enjoy going to church for things like that but I just didn't believe in what was taught. I didn't grow up with it so I guess it's easier.

[deelaem]

A prime example of Mormon spin - Ann Romney says her favorite show is Modern Family. Obvious play to public approval. However, I did LOVE the show's creator's snappy comeback,

Steve Levitan

✔

@SteveLevitan

Thrilled Ann Romney says ModFam is her favorite show. We'll offer her the role of officiant at Mitch & Cam's wedding. As soon as it's legal.

Good one, right? Further example of spin is that Ann Romney never would have said that if she thought the wrath of the church would come down on her. So apparently saying you like a show that has gay characters is ok, but when the rubber hits the road, Mormon-controlled KSL-TV refuses to broadcast the new show called "The New Normal", which also has gay characters.

Spin, spin, spin. Say what you have to to get public approval, but continue with your cult agenda behind the scenes. The sad part is that lots of people buy this crap.

[emesbe]

Not to be (excessively) pendantic, but this right here is why *I* get annoyed w/ 'faith defenders' on FJ.

Because there wasn't 'mis-information' to correct. People were sharing experiences. You had a different one. Good for you.

That doesn't make their experience 'misinformation' for you to correct.

It's condescending and obnoxious to insist that your experience is the typical/correct one and other people's experiences aren't. Which is what, essentially, you said here.

I was sharing my experience as well. Where did I insist that my experience is the typical/correct one?

How is this different than people saying that feminists are all fat lesbians who hate men and children-- And then those of us who are feminists saying, nope I am none of those. Well, I am fat. So there's that. :lol:

Look, I'm not a huge fan of the LDS church all the time. I am here cause it's where I was born, and all I've ever known. ANd there are concepts that I love and believe in. I kinda pick and choose.

[treemom]

I think there is also a difference in that Mormons are expected and held accountable for obeying every single rule, as someone else here noted. I don't know of another mainstream religion that sends people to your home and also enforces tithing at the level that Mormons do.

My husband is Catholic and you can assume with confidence that a Catholic uses birth control and does other things that conflict with Church teachings. I am Reform Jewish and you can safely assume that I do not eat kosher or want to stone rape victims. Mormons are kind of the opposite; if someone is a practicing Mormon, they probably are obeying all the rules or at least publically pretending to do so.

This. I am starting to think that the real reason Mitt hasn't released his tax returns is because it will show he hasn't tithed his full 10%

[darkplumaged]

I think I can understand sticking with a faith if you grew up in it, even if you don't subscribe to all of the beliefs or you have significant disagreements with the leadership. But what I really don't understand is joining a faith as an adult that essentially says that who you are is wrong and bad. breadprincess, what attracted you to the LDS church?

[lilwriter85]

A prime example of Mormon spin - Ann Romney says her favorite show is Modern Family. Obvious play to public approval. However, I did LOVE the show's creator's snappy comeback,

Good one, right? Further example of spin is that Ann Romney never would have said that if she thought the wrath of the church would come down on her. So apparently saying you like a show that has gay characters is ok, but when the rubber hits the road, Mormon-controlled KSL-TV refuses to broadcast the new show called "The New Normal", which also has gay characters.

Spin, spin, spin. Say what you have to to get public approval, but continue with your cult agenda behind the scenes. The sad part is that lots of people buy this crap.

I love Steve Levitan's response to Mrs. Mittens.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I was sharing my experience as well. Where did I insist that my experience is the typical/correct one?

How is this different than people saying that feminists are all fat lesbians who hate men and children-- And then those of us who are feminists saying, nope I am none of those. Well, I am fat. So there's that. :lol:

Look, I'm not a huge fan of the LDS church all the time. I am here cause it's where I was born, and all I've ever known. ANd there are concepts that I love and believe in. I kinda pick and choose.

Well one difference is that the all feminists are fat lesbians who hate children is totally made up, where other peoples' experiences with Mormonism are all too real. Really, have you ever met a feminist who is a fat lesbian who hates children? If so they're very rare and aren't fat lesbians who hate children BECAUSE they're feminists, but these people have had these experiences BECAUSE of Mormonism. It's not a valid comparison at all. This isn't misinformation like what fundie's think of feminists, this is real peoples' real experiences that are much more in line with the official doctrine of Mormonism than yours.

If you were to say you were correcting misinformation then yes, you're saying your experience is the only right/valid one. Because this is accurate information based on real experiences. Oh, and following a religion just because it's all you've ever known is a horrible reason. I don't make excuses for the famous fundies I snark on here, when if they're in the second generation, all the horrible things they do to raise their children and all the horrible things they believe is all they've ever known too.

[dawbs]

I was sharing my experience as well. Where did I insist that my experience is the typical/correct one?

How is this different than people saying that feminists are all fat lesbians who hate men and children-- And then those of us who are feminists saying, nope I am none of those. Well, I am fat. So there's that. :lol:

Look, I'm not a huge fan of the LDS church all the time. I am here cause it's where I was born, and all I've ever known. ANd there are concepts that I love and believe in. I kinda pick and choose.

calling other peope's experience 'misinformation' that you have to correct is dismissing their experiences.

[breadprincess]

Hey, sorry it's taken me so long to respond, I took some Benadryl and inadvertently passed out for 7 hours (and it didn't even stop me sneezing, wtf).

I was raised Lutheran but was a pretty staunch agnostic until i was about 21. Then I did a lot of soul searching and research on world religions (I had taken a lot of religion courses in college and reading about various religions has always been a hobby of mine) and one day found a book by Elder Ballard that was sort of a LDS For Dummies type deal, and a lot of resonated with me. I do love the people and community that church gives me yes, but there's a lot about Mormon theology I also like. I like the idea of continued revelation, because I don't think that God would just abandon us without someone to speak for him on Earth, as well as the idea of the priesthood. I like the idea of the Godhead as opposed to the Trinity, which I never really could wrap my mind around growing up. I like the emphasis on personal growth and enlightenment, which I had never really seen in any other churches I had attended (ELCA Lutheran, MS Lutheran, Methodist, UCC). I like the idea that everyone gets the chance to hear the Gospel in the Spirit World and then choose for themselves if they believe it or not. I also like the style of worship, since call and response worship always kind of freaked me out. I like the Book of Mormon, I think it's a beautiful text and very inspiring.

Sorry if that's not super coherent, I'm still a little fuzzy from the Benadryl, but I hope that answers your questions.

[samurai_sarah]

Hey, sorry it's taken me so long to respond, I took some Benadryl and inadvertently passed out for 7 hours (and it didn't even stop me sneezing, wtf).

I was raised Lutheran but was a pretty staunch agnostic until i was about 21. Then I did a lot of soul searching and research on world religions (I had taken a lot of religion courses in college and reading about various religions has always been a hobby of mine) and one day found a book by Elder Ballard that was sort of a LDS For Dummies type deal, and a lot of resonated with me. I do love the people and community that church gives me yes, but there's a lot about Mormon theology I also like. I like the idea of continued revelation, because I don't think that God would just abandon us without someone to speak for him on Earth, as well as the idea of the priesthood. I like the idea of the Godhead as opposed to the Trinity, which I never really could wrap my mind around growing up. I like the emphasis on personal growth and enlightenment, which I had never really seen in any other churches I had attended (ELCA Lutheran, MS Lutheran, Methodist, UCC). I like the idea that everyone gets the chance to hear the Gospel in the Spirit World and then choose for themselves if they believe it or not. I also like the style of worship, since call and response worship always kind of freaked me out. I like the Book of Mormon, I think it's a beautiful text and very inspiring.

Sorry if that's not super coherent, I'm still a little fuzzy from the Benadryl, but I hope that answers your questions.

Thanks for answering my question about cognitive dissonance.

But, does it bother you that only men get the priesthood? From what I've heard women are supposed to be more spiritual (or something of that nature), so the priesthood is like compensation. Sorry, if I got that wrong, it's the reasoning I heard, and it sounds off to me.

Also, why are continued revelations required? Freejoytoo mentioned African-Americans getting the priesthood in 1978. But from what I gather from the LDS, your deity's word is supposed to be pretty unchangeable and eternal. Why does your deity seem to change his mind according to civil rights movements? What are recent revelations all about?

And since you mention the Book of Mormon, maybe you can answer a question for me that's been bugging me. On the first page, after the intro, Nephi writes:

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

I don't get it. Basically, the way I understand it, Nephi is a Jew in Israel. Why is he writing in Egyptian? Was his father Egyptian? From the text it seems that his father lived in Jerusalem allhis life, so why? And at the time of his writing, Hebrew already had an established alphabet, as far as I know. So, I wonder why. It seems an odd thing to do.

I hope you don't mind me asking. Especially the last thing, which may sound weird, but I do get hung up on details. And the last set of missionaries, and the member they dragged along, couldn't answer that one.

Oh, one last question: As a Catholic, I often found myself defending the indefensible. I defended my church, realizing that they'd never do the same for me. On the contrary. They'd vilify me for choices I made to the best of my ability. In the end, I left, because I could no longer lend my face and name to an organization that hurts so many people. Does it bother you that your church is doing some pretty foul things, in your name, as well? How do you deal with that? Or is that not an issue for you?

[freejoytoo]

Do you have issues with some of the shadiness regarding the foundation of the church? What do you think about things like the Word of Wisdom which doesn't really correlate to scientific fact? What do you think about the fact that the church excommunicated Simon Southerton because his DNA results proved that Native Americans were not at all related to Israelites? I think you mentioned you were LBGTQ, do have issue with Prop 8? And baptism of Holocaust victims? I assume you are against them yet your tithing must fund some of it. Supposedly the prophets have never been wrong yet they have been proven wrong constantly, like when Brigham Young said there were Quakers on the moon.

It's things like this which puzzle me as to why people come to the church as adults.

[samurai_sarah]

Do you have issues with some of the shadiness regarding the foundation of the church? What do you think about things like the Word of Wisdom which doesn't really correlate to scientific fact? What do you think about the fact that the church excommunicated Simon Southerton because his DNA results proved that Native Americans were not at all related to Israelites? I think you mentioned you were LBGTQ, do have issue with Prop 8? And baptism of Holocaust victims? I assume you are against them yet your tithing must fund some of it. Supposedly the prophets have never been wrong yet they have been proven wrong constantly, like when Brigham Young said there were Quakers on the moon.

It's things like this which puzzle me as to why people come to the church as adults.

Not only Holocaust victims, but one A. Hitler too, if I remember correctly. And I've always wondered about the Book of Abraham. The original, which is in LDS possession and has been translated by scientists, is a pretty straight-forward Egyptian death scroll. What happened there? In a similar vein: Why were God's anointed fooled by one Mark Hofman? Why did God reveal that two ear-piercings are wrong, but remained suspiciously silent about bigger events concerning the whole world? Why does God punish those that reject the gospel, if we all have free agency? I mean, I've heard the LDS gospel, decided it wasn't for me, and now God is going to punish me for making a choice to the best of my ability?

And while we're at it: What's the Great Apostasy all about? Why do you reject the Nicene creed? Where's the archaeological evidence for the Nephites/Lamanites/whoever who had iron smelters and horses in America? What happened to those civilizations the Book of Mormon claims? Where is Zarahemla? Why, if polygamy was all about taking care of widows, did Joseph Smith marry a 14 year-old? Why don't census records of the time support the idea that this was normal? Why abandon polygamy to become a state? Why did God suddenly change his mind? Does it bother you that polygamy is practised in the afterlife? Does it bother you that it could come back as soon as God decides so?

[breadprincess]

As a feminist yes, it does bother me that only men get the Priesthood, but I am nothing if not an optimist and, like more other Mormons than most people are aware of, hope that this will change in the future.

I don't think continued revelations are required, but I don't think that Heavenly Father would interact with and reveal things to the Israelites, Jews, and early Christians and just...stop. If He is omnipotent and loves us as his children, he wouldn't just cut himself off from us without reason. I don't believe that Heavenly Father changed his mind about African Americans receiving the priesthood, but that He was waiting to reveal this until humans were ready to accept it. A tumblr that I follow wrote out a really well thought answer to this that is much more eloquent than mine, and if I can find it I will edit it into here.

As far as modern day revelations, they are all about connecting with Heavenly Father and letting him guide us through life. They let us know that what we do and believe is in accordance with His plan for us.

I don't have a good answer to your question about Nephi and the Egyptian language as it's not something that I have looked into before, but a cursory google search on the matter has brought up a few articles, including this one http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2011/12/f ... tians.html

I am bothered by some of the things the larger Church organizations does, especially in regards to LGBT rights, but I prefer to think about the actions of the individuals that make up the Church instead. Is the Church perfect? No, it is run by humans, who are fallible. Could the Church improve? Yes, and I very much hope that it does one day. And I feel like it is part of my duty to help the Church move forward, instead of leaving it because it has problems.

I hope I've answered all your questions! And if you have any more don't hesitate to let me know.

EDIT: Whoa, a lot more questions were posted while I was typing this, I will try to get to them after dinner.

[freejoytoo]

Still while we're at it, why does God constantly change his mind on modesty, ie one time it was okay to have bare shoulders and two earrings and now it isn't? Why isn't He consistent? Do you not find it fishy that Joseph Smith told Emma she had to go along with polygamy because it was what God wanted and told a fourteen-year-old that if she didn't marry him that would piss God off as well? How about the fact thst Brigham Young essentially organised a slaughter? What do you think of the Blood Atonement? That masonic symbols are sketched in temples and used partially in temple rituals?

Breadprincess, your point about the church being fallible doesn't sit right by me because the guy who's saying homosexuality is sinful is a prophet so apprently gets a direct line from God, so either he's wrong, God's wrong or the 'prophet' is making it up as he goes along. It reminds me strongly of the racism prior to 1978 when the church suddenly realised they'd been wrong, only it was a prophet who'd been spouting all the crap about black people being natural sinners. So either God's racist or he's making it up. If God's omnipotent He could have made it clearer in the BoM that black people are no different to white people instead if allowing Joe Smith to translate it incorrectly.

[pomology]

I don't believe that Heavenly Father changed his mind about African Americans receiving the priesthood, but that He was waiting to reveal this until humans were ready to accept it.

Seriously? Because 1978 would kind of be way late for white Americans would be willing to accept blacks in the Priesthood. The Mormons waited until it was really not socially acceptable anymore to keep blacks out of the priesthood before having this "revelation." Clearly, the Mormon Heavenly Father is a follower, not a leader, where civil rights are concerned, which doesn't make him seem all that loving to me.

[samurai_sarah]

As a feminist yes, it does bother me that only men get the Priesthood, but I am nothing if not an optimist and, like more other Mormons than most people are aware of, hope that this will change in the future.

I don't think continued revelations are required, but I don't think that Heavenly Father would interact with and reveal things to the Israelites, Jews, and early Christians and just...stop. If He is omnipotent and loves us as his children, he wouldn't just cut himself off from us without reason. I don't believe that Heavenly Father changed his mind about African Americans receiving the priesthood, but that He was waiting to reveal this until humans were ready to accept it. A tumblr that I follow wrote out a really well thought answer to this that is much more eloquent than mine, and if I can find it I will edit it into here.

As far as modern day revelations, they are all about connecting with Heavenly Father and letting him guide us through life. They let us know that what we do and believe is in accordance with His plan for us.

I don't have a good answer to your question about Nephi and the Egyptian language as it's not something that I have looked into before, but a cursory google search on the matter has brought up a few articles, including this one http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2011/12/f ... tians.html

I am bothered by some of the things the larger Church organizations does, especially in regards to LGBT rights, but I prefer to think about the actions of the individuals that make up the Church instead. Is the Church perfect? No, it is run by humans, who are fallible. Could the Church improve? Yes, and I very much hope that it does one day. And I feel like it is part of my duty to help the Church move forward, instead of leaving it because it has problems.

I hope I've answered all your questions! And if you have any more don't hesitate to let me know.

EDIT: Whoa, a lot more questions were posted while I was typing this, I will try to get to them after dinner.

Thanks that answers some of it. But in particular about the "writing in Egyptian" question...a "healthy exchange" doesn't really explain why someone would write about their personal history, culture and knowledge in another language. I have some sympathy- I write in the old German alphabet (Sütterlin) every now and then, but that's native to my mother tongue. Using Cyrillic would be just...weird.

That aside, I do wonder why your deity has to wait for us to be ready for anything. It's the word of God, right? By a similar logic, the Jews should have just accepted Jesus as the messiah. Times were dire, and all that, and God sends Jesus. Yet human agency interfered with that. Is agency more powerful than God? Were the people just not ready? Why would he punish them for an error on his side? Shouldn't God have foreseen that?

I do understand that you pick and choose. I did that for a very long time. I'm wondering though if it personally bothers you that people hear that you're Mormon, and lump you with the lot. After all, you are lending another voice to the LDS, whether you agree or not. In my case, I'd just helped a friend with an abortion, which is a huge no-no in Catholicism. At the same time, the RCC excommunicated the doctors and mother, who had helped a 10 year-old in South America getting an abortion after her stepfather raped her. Make no mistake, leaving hurt. But I couldn't look anyone in the eye any more, and lend my name to that. I used to think that my church was going to move forward, and that I was part of it. Is yours?

edited for missing words

[adayinthelife]

I heard there is a high rate of antidepressant use among Mormons but I don't know if there is actual evidence to back it up. Does anyone know if there is?

[breadprincess]

Whoooaaa, lots of questions. A lot of them I cannot answer, honestly. For the record I don't tithe because of my issues with Prop 8, but I do donate to the missionary fund and other funds that finance the printing of the BoM and help stock the bishop's store. Honestly it seems like a lot of these questions are meant to get to me renounce the church, but if that happens it will be on my own time and not because some people on an internet snark forum want me to.

[emmiedahl]

Whoooaaa, lots of questions. A lot of them I cannot answer, honestly. For the record I don't tithe because of my issues with Prop 8, but I do donate to the missionary fund and other funds that finance the printing of the BoM and help stock the bishop's store. Honestly it seems like a lot of these questions are meant to get to me renounce the church, but if that happens it will be on my own time and not because some people on an internet snark forum want me to.

These all sound like legitimate questions. If the answers make you want to renounce the church, the church is the issue and not the questions.

Sorry if that sounds jumpy, but I have Mormon relatives who are happy to criticize my religion every time I see them *to my children* but get all lolpersecution if you ask them about their own issues.

[formergothardite]

So you don't think it is weird at all that the Mormon church has new revalations after culture has already accepted these revalations as the norm? They only have revalations after it gets to the point where it would make them look really, really bad to not change?

[samurai_sarah]

Whoooaaa, lots of questions. A lot of them I cannot answer, honestly. For the record I don't tithe because of my issues with Prop 8, but I do donate to the missionary fund and other funds that finance the printing of the BoM and help stock the bishop's store. Honestly it seems like a lot of these questions are meant to get to me renounce the church, but if that happens it will be on my own time and not because some people on an internet snark forum want me to.

People asking curious questions (I can't speak for others, but I am merely curious) make you feel like you're asked to renounce your church? O-okay...by all means, take your time to evaluate, but crying "persecution"? Really?!?

[YPestis]

I understand there's a lot of negative stereotypes of Mormons. Many theology based and probably unfair.

That said, I have personal problem issues with the LDS church as well, especially with their attitudes towards women. I know there's a wide range of lifestyles among Mormons but statistically, Mormons are far more conservative than other groups. I guess it's this conservatism amongst Mormons themselves that turns me off. I don't agree with the idea that women's highest calling is to be mothers and nurturers. I don't like the idea that one has to marry to reach the highest pinnacle of heaven, or the heavy stress on marriage and wholesome family life.

I do wish for a traditional family life (i.e husband, wife, kids, hubby works). However, I don't like the stance that that's the life for everyone, which is the impression I get from the Mormon church and from the Mormons I personally know. I have met nontraditional Mormons who do not follow that ideal but they seem like outliers with disapproval from family. Most Mormons I meet marry young, stress the man-breadwinner/wife-SAHM model, with a tendency for many children. That's all fine except I feel the Church tends to pressure people to do this, removing that as a personal choice. Of course, I'm also upset with their stance on gay marriage. I know many other religious groups are also anti-gay marriage, but the Mormon church makes a big show of it. I could never follow a church that has these retro attitudes about women, about gays nor their stress on conforming to a vanilla family life, even if I share aspects of that lifestyle. Maybe that's why I am happy to not follow any church right now. I feel most religious groups would look at my beliefs with disapproval.

[ElphabaGalinda]

People asking curious questions (I can't speak for others, but I am merely curious) make you feel like you're asked to renounce your church? O-okay...by all means, take your time to evaluate, but crying "persecution"? Really?!?

Some peoples' questions seemed to be to make you look at the darker sides of mormonism, but so what? Why would you want to ignore the parts of the Mormon religion other people find offensive, or plain confusing? But they seemed like legitimate questions about specific points of your faith, using actual facts of your faith to back them up, so if that makes you want to question what you believe, that's all you. If you truly believe something I don't understand why you can't answer questions about details of that belief system. Especially when it's one not typically considered mainstream, I don't know why you wouldn't expect such questions.

Personally I could never believe in a religion that's official position is who I am as a person is wrong, but hey, guess that's just me.

[deelaem]

As a feminist yes, it does bother me that only men get the Priesthood, but I am nothing if not an optimist and, like more other Mormons than most people are aware of, hope that this will change in the future.

And I'm hoping my own private island, but I think I have the better chance of it happening. If the Patriarchy rules in all of society (and it does), what makes you think a religion founded on patriarchy is going to change? There's no motivation for the powers that be - men - to offer the priesthood to women. They like being in charge and having women submit to them. It's supposedly in the Book of Mormon. You can be optimistic all you want, but it ain't gonna happen.

In fact, if there are Mormons who want this to happen, it would not surprise me if the President hears about it there will be a sudden "heavenly" revelation about it.