Mormonism in America

[Guest Anonymous]

I am bothered by some of the things the larger Church organizations does, especially in regards to LGBT rights, but I prefer to think about the actions of the individuals that make up the Church instead.

What reason do you have to believe this is true? Are you saying that it is a few bad apples? Or are you making a distinction (frankly, a distinction without a difference) between the church and the people who are the church?

[Hane]

What I find repugnant about the Mormon religion is that one HAS to be married (heterosexually, natch) to get into the best part of heaven (aka the Celestial Kingdom). So, you could be the best human being who ever walked the earth, but single = only the second-class heaven (aka the Terrestrial Kingdom) for you.

It's absurd: Forget about the marginalization of gay people. What if you just plain don't find someone who loves you enough to marry you? What if you simply prefer the single life?

The Mormon afterlife isn't all pie and skittles either: Women can anticipate an eternity of bearing infinite numbers of "spirit children" (=souls waiting to get bodies and live on earth), so, Mormon wives, get yourselves knocked up NOW to accommodate them!!!) with their husbands, who will most likely have multiple wives.

How can anyone who doesn't want to get married or has no prospects for marriage stand to be a part of a religion that announces, loud and clear, "You're just not good enough!"

[breadprincess]

People asking curious questions (I can't speak for others, but I am merely curious) make you feel like you're asked to renounce your church? O-okay...by all means, take your time to evaluate, but crying "persecution"? Really?!?

And where exactly did I mention persecution? I got bombarded with questions that I admitted I didn't know the answer to. Don't put something in quotes, even scare quotes, that I didn't say.

[shedemei]

What I find repugnant about the Mormon religion is that one HAS to be married (heterosexually, natch) to get into the best part of heaven (aka the Celestial Kingdom). So, you could be the best human being who ever walked the earth, but single = only the second-class heaven (aka the Terrestrial Kingdom) for you.

I believe this is only true for men. Leftover women get married off in the celestial kingdom as polygamy is practiced there.

[samurai_sarah]

And where exactly did I mention persecution? I got bombarded with questions that I admitted I didn't know the answer to. Don't put something in quotes, even scare quotes, that I didn't say.

Did you read what I wrote, before you decided to hand-slap? "Persecution" is in quotes, because that's grammatically correct, as far as I know. It should also be fairly clear that that's my interpretation of what you said. You sounded like our Friday Fundies there. But, okay, let's try this again, using your own words: A lot of curious questions make you feel like you have to "renounce the church, but if that happens it will be on my own time and not because some people on an internet snark forum want me to"? Really?!?

[Hane]

I believe this is only true for men. Leftover women get married off in the celestial kingdom as polygamy is practiced there.

Well, that makes it all swell, then.

[formergothardite]

If you are protestant and don't like the sexist, gay hating views of your church you can just go find another one that doesn't believe those things. But it doesn't seem like the Mormon church is like that. All the churches pretty much believe the same things, except some don't harrass their members like others do. Or am I wrong and you can go find a Mormon church that isn't sexist and gay hating?

[Rachel333]

Regarding heaven, most Mormons I know tend to take a "God will work it all out after we die" view that allows for single people to make it to the CK, too. I do like their fairly universalistic (spell check says that's not a word, but I'm keeping it) approach, where there effectively is no hell. And since Mormonism emphasizes orthopraxy (correct action) over orthodoxy (correct belief), you actually get a surprising diversity in belief for one church. Like every other religion, a lot of people kind of just believe what they want to believe.

Or am I wrong and you can go find a Mormon church that isn't sexist and gay hating?

There are some LDS offshoots that would fit that, but within the LDS church you'll find some wards where most people are pretty liberal about those issues, and some where most people are a lot more conservative than the church prescribes, but no matter what ward you're in, you're still in a church that has those policies.

I don't like Mormonism at all, but I do find it kind of fascinating.

[breadprincess]

Did you read what I wrote, before you decided to hand-slap? "Persecution" is in quotes, because that's grammatically correct, as far as I know. It should also be fairly clear that that's my interpretation of what you said. You sounded like our Friday Fundies there. But, okay, let's try this again, using your own words: A lot of curious questions make you feel like you have to "renounce the church, but if that happens it will be on my own time and not because some people on an internet snark forum want me to"? Really?!?

If that's your interpretation of what I said then it's not a quote from me and doesn't need quotes around it, I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I know you think you're being clever by calling me a fundie, but if you actually read any of my other posts on this forum (and clearly you haven't if you think I claim to be persecuted for being LDS) you would know that I very much am not. There's no need to get nasty because I am not a Mormon encyclopedia, it's not a cute look. Also, if you had bothered to read anything else I have posted in this thread you would know that I am currently re-evaluating my faith, so don't jump down my throat for not rushing through the introspection it takes to thoroughly evaluate if this is the right religious path for me. I'm really not sure why you're being so rude, I actually thought you were nice at first before you started accusing me of being a fundie and saying I'm a "hand slapper" because I object to you incorrectly quoting me and then blaming grammar rules. If you want to get mean then be my guest, because I'll give it right back in spades.

[samurai_sarah]

If that's your interpretation of what I said then it's not a quote from me and doesn't need quotes around it, I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I know you think you're being clever by calling me a fundie, but if you actually read any of my other posts on this forum (and clearly you haven't if you think I claim to be persecuted for being LDS) you would know that I very much am not. There's no need to get nasty because I am not a Mormon encyclopedia, it's not a cute look. Also, if you had bothered to read anything else I have posted in this thread you would know that I am currently re-evaluating my faith, so don't jump down my throat for not rushing through the introspection it takes to thoroughly evaluate if this is the right religious path for me. I'm really not sure why you're being so rude, I actually thought you were nice at first before you started accusing me of being a fundie and saying I'm a "hand slapper" because I object to you incorrectly quoting me and then blaming grammar rules. If you want to get mean then be my guest, because I'll give it right back in spades.

Okay, wow. I explained why I said what I said, never mind clarifying that I never quoted you, and that's mean, nasty and rude? I asked you a lot of curious questions, because I am genuinely interested in the answers. If you re-read, you might see that I objected to your statement that posters here want you to renounce your faith. Since I can't speak for others, all I can say is that I was curious about your faith and what you think about certain issues. If that means that I'm not nice, then so be it. Please note, however, that I never misquoted you. To quote you, I'd actually have to use something you said. I said "persecution", you didn't. What's your point?

[freejoytoo]

My questions were curious, not rhetorical. Yes, they refer a lot of the darker sides of the church but it's because I am honestly curious about why people join if they are aware of these things and how they can make peace with it. And the 'it's the church so it's fallible' seems hypocritical because most of these fallible things are said by prophets who according to doctrine get messages from God. It doesn't make sense to me.

[deelaem]

Well, that makes it all swell, then.

Hey, you took the snarky words right out of my mouth! I guess now that we're married we're beginning to think alike! :lol:

breadprincess wrote:

I am bothered by some of the things the larger Church organizations does, especially in regards to LGBT rights, but I prefer to think about the actions of the individuals that make up the Church instead.

The actions of the individuals, eh? Before you were dunked, did you bother to do any objective research on Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and countless other men of power in the LDS? Have you ever heard of Mountain Meadows? Horrendous as that was, it was also the tip of the iceberg. The church had a policy of death to outsiders and blood atonement for insiders at that time. These are the individuals that founded the religion you're a part of, and they're revered by present day "Saints".

Listen, I get the surface appeal of the Mormon church. I've shared before that my older sister is a Mormon. When I was a kid, she tried to convert me before my parents put a stop to it. Back then it seemed so wonderful; nice people, well-ordered living, family centered, etc. I remember seeing this cheesy film about eternal marriage that kept emphasizing how awful the "till death do us part" vow was in non-Mormon marriage. Pretty convincing stuff to a vulnerable mind. It's just a good thing that I had adults who could see the bigger picture to stop me.

But you're an adult, and you can easily do research on the church and find about its huge dark side without trying to defend it. Then, if you want to stay in your church, you'll know you made an informed decision. I just ask that you admit to the truth and stop trying to put a positive spin on issues that us non-Mormons know to be true.

Recommended reading - The 19th Wife, by Ann Eliza Young. Written by someone who was born into it, suffered through it, and escaped.

[treemom]

When oh when is some respectable media person going to grow some balls and reveal the truth about Romney and his cult? Somebody better do some explain' or in 2016 we'll have a Scientologist and a Hari Krishna running for President & VP against a Branch Davidanite and a Heaven's Gater.

Even most FJ'ers seem to be afraid to call it like it is; The LDS church is a fucked up cult.

Uh-hmm...

What do you think brother Romney's secret name for his wife is? Will he call her into his heaven? What if she pisses him off? Will he still call her secret name then? And since Mormon's accept polygamy in the after-life, how many wives will he seal himself to?

Do you think he wears the magic long john underwear? Does he shower in it? Have sex in it?

Can you guess who *has* seen his tax return?

And why do they send their chauvinistic male children out in suits on bikes to knock on your door?

I don't think it is any more wacky than any religions. I am not sure it is a more fucked up cult than southern baptist.

[treemom]

Yep, it is a cult just like ATI.

Ok see this I can get behind. It is as equally fucked up as a lot of things we discuss here. But sometimes I think others (not you FG) focus on the Mormon insanity while ignoring the insanity of lots of out mainstream faiths.

[treemom]

I had an argument about this with my dad. He said it's a sect like Catholicism. I'm not denying that Catholicism is equally filled with misogyny and general crazy but at least it wasn't made up by a conman who read the 'texts' out of a hat with a stone. I don't understand why Mormonism seems to earn respect because the people are 'nice'. I'm sure they are nice but they're still following a fucking cult.

See, I would argue Catholicism was made up by men wearing hats.

[treemom]

So will you let me know what I am allowed to comment on? Thanks.

You can comment on whatever, but expect for us to think you are full of BS

[treemom]

Please, be annoyed all you like. I'm annoyed by my church quite often. But I still reserve the right to correct misinformation.

It isn't misinformation, it is something you haven't experienced.

[smores]

If that's your interpretation of what I said then it's not a quote from me and doesn't need quotes around it, I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I know you think you're being clever by calling me a fundie, but if you actually read any of my other posts on this forum (and clearly you haven't if you think I claim to be persecuted for being LDS) you would know that I very much am not. There's no need to get nasty because I am not a Mormon encyclopedia, it's not a cute look. Also, if you had bothered to read anything else I have posted in this thread you would know that I am currently re-evaluating my faith, so don't jump down my throat for not rushing through the introspection it takes to thoroughly evaluate if this is the right religious path for me. I'm really not sure why you're being so rude, I actually thought you were nice at first before you started accusing me of being a fundie and saying I'm a "hand slapper" because I object to you incorrectly quoting me and then blaming grammar rules. If you want to get mean then be my guest, because I'll give it right back in spades.

You know, I'm re-evaluating my own faith and beliefs right now, and I certainly wouldn't be in line to defend them right now. Maybe you ought to step back and investigate some of these questions if you are truly re-evaluating and figure out where you stand.

And I don't think they're getting nasty. I think they're trying to make you think, and I also think they're curious - I don't know a lot about the mormon church and I don't know of any mormons who would take kindly to anyone asking questions, and I have mormons in my family. That's not nasty, that's something you should try to reflect upon right now, especially if you think at all that you may have joined a church too quickly (inference from you saying you're re-evaluating your faith).

[formergothardite]

I think that since most people are more used to mainstream Christian beliefs it is easier to not see how weird they really are, but they really are all just as weird. I mean, Christianity is based on the belief that God got a virgin pregnant with himself, was born, lived, died and then rose from the dead and floated up to heaven. Christianity has just been around longer than Mormanism so it sounds stranger.

[snarkbillie]

I think that since most people are more used to mainstream Christian beliefs it is easier to not see how weird they really are, but they really are all just as weird. I mean, Christianity is based on the belief that God got a virgin pregnant with himself, was born, lived, died and then rose from the dead and floated up to heaven. Christianity has just been around longer than Mormanism so it sounds stranger.

I think they're equally weird but that Mormonism gets some more side eye because of all the "secret" stuff. (wait, not secret, sacred right?) Also, I was thinking that Mormonism is "new" compared, like their founders are in living memory almost so it seems easier to snark on in the "you just made that up!" way the same with Scientology. People think Christianity has more street cred because it's older. :?

[pomology]

I think they're equally weird but that Mormonism gets some more side eye because of all the "secret" stuff. (wait, not secret, sacred right?) Also, I was thinking that Mormonism is "new" compared, like their founders are in living memory almost so it seems easier to snark on in the "you just made that up!" way the same with Scientology. People think Christianity has more street cred because it's older. :?

Well, to be fair, the claims Christianity makes kind of have to be taken on faith. There is no way there could be an biological or archeological evidence for Mary's virginity, Jesus walking on water, Jesus turning water into wine, etc. However, as I understand it, the Book of Mormon makes a lot of claims that COULD be supported by biological or archeological evidence, but simply aren't.

[treemom]

I think they're equally weird but that Mormonism gets some more side eye because of all the "secret" stuff. (wait, not secret, sacred right?) Also, I was thinking that Mormonism is "new" compared, like their founders are in living memory almost so it seems easier to snark on in the "you just made that up!" way the same with Scientology. People think Christianity has more street cred because it's older. :?

Well it does work to their disadvantage that they wackier claims can be easy disproven.

[emmiedahl]

All religion is a little bit crazy. We are speculating on intangible things we have no way of proving. I feel an emotional attachment to a certain religion but I acknowledge that it is a bit nutso from a rational standpoint.

I think you can have a healthy relationship with religion when you acknowledge that you could totally be incorrect and that your religion is no less crazy than anyone else's. And also, when you don't try to make your religious beliefs law. I will never pick on anyone who is like, "I believe X but I could be wrong. You believe what *you* want, we'll all just respect each other's beliefs." In fact I really could not belong to a religion that does not have some tolerance built-in.

[fencesitter]

If you are protestant and don't like the sexist, gay hating views of your church you can just go find another one that doesn't believe those things. But it doesn't seem like the Mormon church is like that. All the churches pretty much believe the same things, except some don't harrass their members like others do. Or am I wrong and you can go find a Mormon church that isn't sexist and gay hating?

Sadly *most* organized religions do not openly accept homosexuals. The only 2 protestant groups I can come up with are the Episcipalian (sp) and Unitarian (types)... I am no expert but the general view of the "major" religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is not favorable on homosexuality. You can find churches that are more liberal in all of those. That being said, I doubt you can find a mainstream mormon church that is accepting, but you won't find a main stream baptist, catholic, CoC, CoG,methodist, islamic, etc church that is either... they may exist, but they aren't in-line with the mainstream doctorines (sp).

[fencesitter]

All religion is a little bit crazy. We are speculating on intangible things we have no way of proving. I feel an emotional attachment to a certain religion but I acknowledge that it is a bit nutso from a rational standpoint.

I think you can have a healthy relationship with religion when you acknowledge that you could totally be incorrect and that your religion is no less crazy than anyone else's. And also, when you don't try to make your religious beliefs law. I will never pick on anyone who is like, "I believe X but I could be wrong. You believe what *you* want, we'll all just respect each other's beliefs." In fact I really could not

Thus