Mormonism in America

[SisiL78]

I had an argument about this with my dad. He said it's a sect like Catholicism. I'm not denying that Catholicism is equally filled with misogyny and general crazy but at least it wasn't made up by a conman who read the 'texts' out of a hat with a stone. I don't understand why Mormonism seems to earn respect because the people are 'nice'. I'm sure they are nice but they're still following a fucking cult.

The difference between Mormonism and a host of other religions, such as Catholicism, is that you don't "pay to play". Ya, you get pestered for donations... but if you neglect to donate or choose to donate your money to a charity of your choice you are not kicked out of the religion and prohibited from even attending the wedding ceremonies of your loved ones. The secrecy is amazing. We were talking about this at Shabbos dinner and someone said "but, yes us Jews have secret underwear too (tzitzits)". While not exactly underwear its not a big secret. You can see the strings hanging from the waists of super religious men (some men tuck them in, especially those who work in secular businesses). THe thing with tzitzits is that its all known, and anyone can walk into a shop and buy them. We aren't out there trying to suppress the information regarding them. Frankly, any Jewish religious object can be purchased by a non-Jew or a less religious Jew. I've never been asked for my Jew ID when I've purchased a tallis or kippah or hannukiah. Our Rabbi only asks for a miniscule buildings/grounds fee in exchange for our participation in the synagogue activities. And if we have the money he'll be pleased with an additional donation. Never once have we been asked to disclose our taxes! And if you get food from the Jewish run Kosher food pantry (which is only partly kosher now) no one proselytizes to you or makes you feel that your religion isn't good enough. The Bishop stores are just another way to gain followers. They are also a front, just like the super artificial niceness, to make Mormons seem less scary. But, charity should be about giving. When someone wants my soul in exchange it feels a lot less charitable.

[ADoyle90815]

The difference between Mormonism and a host of other religions, such as Catholicism, is that you don't "pay to play". Ya, you get pestered for donations... but if you neglect to donate or choose to donate your money to a charity of your choice you are not kicked out of the religion and prohibited from even attending the wedding ceremonies of your loved ones. The secrecy is amazing. We were talking about this at Shabbos dinner and someone said "but, yes us Jews have secret underwear too (tzitzits)". While not exactly underwear its not a big secret. You can see the strings hanging from the waists of super religious men (some men tuck them in, especially those who work in secular businesses). THe thing with tzitzits is that its all known, and anyone can walk into a shop and buy them. We aren't out there trying to suppress the information regarding them. Frankly, any Jewish religious object can be purchased by a non-Jew or a less religious Jew. I've never been asked for my Jew ID when I've purchased a tallis or kippah or hannukiah. Our Rabbi only asks for a miniscule buildings/grounds fee in exchange for our participation in the synagogue activities. And if we have the money he'll be pleased with an additional donation. Never once have we been asked to disclose our taxes! And if you get food from the Jewish run Kosher food pantry (which is only partly kosher now) no one proselytizes to you or makes you feel that your religion isn't good enough. The Bishop stores are just another way to gain followers. They are also a front, just like the super artificial niceness, to make Mormons seem less scary. But, charity should be about giving. When someone wants my soul in exchange it feels a lot less charitable.

Another difference between Mormonism and other churches is that you can decide to skip church, or go to a different church within the same congregation, but not in Mormonism. If you miss church one Sunday even if you wanted to avoid spreading the flu or a bad cold, the local ward sends people to find out why you missed. You are basically stuck attending the local ward unless you're an unmarried college student or move, as you're not allowed to go to a different ward. In extreme cases, people are threatened with discipline ranging from not being able to see a family member's temple wedding, to excommunication.

People can leave other denominations, while in Mormonism, those who want to leave are harassed by church members, including the missionaries. Mormons often say that ex-Mormons can leave the church, but can't leave it alone, but it's usually the other way, ex-Mormons are trying to leave the church, but the church won't leave them alone. As one of those ex-Mormons, I had to basically threaten a harassment suit and negative media attention to get them to leave me alone. I was fully prepared to follow through on those threats, but it scared them enough to leave me alone. There is a missionary apartment down the street from me, and even they leave me alone. Fortunately, the Mormons in my step family respect the beliefs of non-members, so they have never once pushed their beliefs on those of us who aren't Mormon. They don't mind that we drink coffee, but none of us dare to drink alcohol around them, as that would really offend them, and it reinforces the message that non-Mormons are able to enjoy themselves without alcohol.

[breadprincess]

Another difference between Mormonism and other churches is that you can decide to skip church, or go to a different church within the same congregation, but not in Mormonism. If you miss church one Sunday even if you wanted to avoid spreading the flu or a bad cold, the local ward sends people to find out why you missed.

Other wards seriously do that? I'm a disabled member and can't make it out to my ward very often, and I never get hounded. Every couple of months I get a call from the missionaries asking if I need a blessing to help with my health, but that's it. Then again, from what I've seen posted on FJ about the Church, my ward seems to be pretty far from the norm.

[SisiL78]

Other wards seriously do that? I'm a disabled member and can't make it out to my ward very often, and I never get hounded. Every couple of months I get a call from the missionaries asking if I need a blessing to help with my health, but that's it. Then again, from what I've seen posted on FJ about the Church, my ward seems to be pretty far from the norm.

You keep on popping up to say that everything discussed regarding Mormonism is somehow wrong. You must live in the only liberal bastion of Mormonism. Any Mormon or ex-Mormon I've ever encountered paint a picture of the religion business they engage in to be oppressive and misogynistic. The constant proselytizing and the secret proxy conversions as well as the collection of data about people is disturbing and makes me wonder what goes on that we don't yet know about. I get that you're really happy with being a Mormon. That's great! But, there are serious issues with this belief system that destroy people's lives. Maybe you do indeed live in a liberal Mormon island, but I highly doubt that you could simultaneously be ignorant of the more common Mormon cultural and belief system.

[dawbs]

You keep on popping up to say that everything discussed regarding Mormonism is somehow wrong. You must live in the only liberal bastion of Mormonism. Any Mormon or ex-Mormon I've ever encountered paint a picture of the religion business they engage in to be oppressive and misogynistic. The constant proselytizing and the secret proxy conversions as well as the collection of data about people is disturbing and makes me wonder what goes on that we don't yet know about. I get that you're really happy with being a Mormon. That's great! But, there are serious issues with this belief system that destroy people's lives. Maybe you do indeed live in a liberal Mormon island, but I highly doubt that you could simultaneously be ignorant of the more common Mormon cultural and belief system.

Or maybe they wouldn't send people to hound someone who is *known* to be disabled and more likely to have problems attending.

(Saying "I get migraines, sometimes we can't make it" makes all the difference in the tone and the likelihood of being asked of "where were you last Sunday" that I might get at church)

[deelaem]

You keep on popping up to say that everything discussed regarding Mormonism is somehow wrong. You must live in the only liberal bastion of Mormonism. Any Mormon or ex-Mormon I've ever encountered paint a picture of the religion business they engage in to be oppressive and misogynistic. The constant proselytizing and the secret proxy conversions as well as the collection of data about people is disturbing and makes me wonder what goes on that we don't yet know about. I get that you're really happy with being a Mormon. That's great! But, there are serious issues with this belief system that destroy people's lives. Maybe you do indeed live in a liberal Mormon island, but I highly doubt that you could simultaneously be ignorant of the more common Mormon cultural and belief system.

Well said. And her posts on her oh-so-cool Mormon church just prove my above point. You will NEVER get a straight truth from a Mormon about their religion - ever! It's ingrained in them from the start to put on a certain public face. As far as I'm concerned, listening to a practicing Mormon talk about their church is like listening to Charlie Brown's teachers. No substance whatsoever.

ETA - If the Mormon church is becoming so gosh darned open, then why did a major Salt Lake affiliate refuse to carry the new show about a gay family?

[SisiL78]

Or maybe they wouldn't send people to hound someone who is *known* to be disabled and more likely to have problems attending.

(Saying "I get migraines, sometimes we can't make it" makes all the difference in the tone and the likelihood of being asked of "where were you last Sunday" that I might get at church)

I meant it in the context of any Mormon based discussion on this thread. Any time people say anything less than positive breadprincess chimes in to say that she's never seen or heard of that and that her community is somehow super special and liberal... although a few people have pointed out that her descriptions of her parish and church are contradictory with other statements. I'm not calling her a full blown troll, but she has some aspects of one. I'm fully willing to accept that outside of Salt Lake there are Mormons who are not humorless drones bent on bleeding dry the parishioners and guilting them into submission. The sort of control exercised on some groups of Mormons can't possibly be feasible in all parts of the country. But, just saying "its not like that here" without any other substantive additional information seems fishy at best.

[lilwriter85]

Well said. And her posts on her oh-so-cool Mormon church just prove my above point. You will NEVER get a straight truth from a Mormon about their religion - ever! It's ingrained in them from the start to put on a certain public face. As far as I'm concerned, listening to a practicing Mormon talk about their church is like listening to Charlie Brown's teachers. No substance whatsoever.

ETA - If the Mormon church is becoming so gosh darned open, then why did a major Salt Lake affiliate refuse to carry the new show about a gay family?

I heard about the SLC affiliate yesterday. I'm not surprised, I believe that same affiliate also didn't air The Playboy Club last year.

[Morton Fan]

Well said. And her posts on her oh-so-cool Mormon church just prove my above point. You will NEVER get a straight truth from a Mormon about their religion - ever! It's ingrained in them from the start to put on a certain public face. As far as I'm concerned, listening to a practicing Mormon talk about their church is like listening to Charlie Brown's teachers. No substance whatsoever.

ETA - If the Mormon church is becoming so gosh darned open, then why did a major Salt Lake affiliate refuse to carry the new show about a gay family?

Well, it looks like I'm on Team DeeLaem again. BreadPrincess, if your particular ward happens to be so incredibly different than mainstream Mormonism, perhaps you aren't actually as Mormon as you think.

[deelaem]

I'm so excited I have a team, now! May I suggest this for our team uniform?

[emesbe]

Other wards seriously do that? I'm a disabled member and can't make it out to my ward very often, and I never get hounded. Every couple of months I get a call from the missionaries asking if I need a blessing to help with my health, but that's it. Then again, from what I've seen posted on FJ about the Church, my ward seems to be pretty far from the norm.

Same here. We are not super active on Sunday. And before I get the "you must not be in mainstream Mormonism", I live in Provo. The Mormoniest of Mormonism.

[Morton Fan]

Same here. We are not super active on Sunday. And before I get the "you must not be in mainstream Mormonism", I live in Provo. The Mormoniest of Mormonism.

"No really! MY ward has ALWAYS allowed African-Americans in the Priesthood! We can tithe whatever the hell we want, and our entire Buddhist extended family came inside for our Temple wedding!"

It just feels like every Mormon on FJ likes to claim that THEIR ward/state/other-reason is always just SHOCKINGLY tolerant ... and "I thought they were all like that!"

ETA: I'm being a tad dramatic, and I apologize. Certainly, not every Mormon on FJ does this ... but it grates the nerves when a few do it repeatedly. Sorry.

[emesbe]

"No really! MY ward has ALWAYS allowed African-Americans in the Priesthood! We can tithe whatever the hell we want, and our entire Buddhist extended family came inside for our Temple wedding!"

It just feels like every Mormon on FJ likes to claim that THEIR ward/state/other-reason is always just SHOCKINGLY tolerant ... and "I thought they were all like that!"

ETA: I'm being a tad dramatic, and I apologize. Certainly, not every Mormon on FJ does this ... but it grates the nerves when a few do it repeatedly. Sorry.

So will you let me know what I am allowed to comment on? Thanks.

[breadprincess]

Yeah, sorry that I was genuinely shocked that other wards harass their members? I've only been a Mormon for 2 years and have only ever been to two wards, my own YSA ward and the family ward we share a chapel with. I recognize that my ward is exceptionally liberal compared to most, politically speaking and in regard to women's rights/feminism because it is located in the most liberal city in my state and I am not trying to excuse other wards, but I really had no idea that extensive harassment of parishioners is "normal" for LDS wards since that's not what goes on in mine.

[deelaem]

What is as predictable as Old Faithful? A Mormon defender.

[breadprincess]

What about me expressing surprise at the actions another congregation takes equals me defending said actions, which I think are deplorable?

[samurai_sarah]

What about me expressing surprise at the actions another congregation takes equals me defending said actions, which I think are deplorable?

With all due respect, does the cognitive dissonance not get to you? (This is an honest question. I used to be Catholic and left because I could no longer square the official dogma and my own values.)

[Morton Fan]

So will you let me know what I am allowed to comment on? Thanks.

Comment on anything you like, but I reserve my right to be annoyed as hell when you do the above.

[emesbe]

With all due respect, does the cognitive dissonance not get to you? (This is an honest question. I used to be Catholic and left because I could no longer square the official dogma and my own values.)

I know this was not directed to me, but yes, it does get to me. That's why we are not as active as we used to be. Why I question everything. And I do what I can to change what I can.

[emesbe]

Comment on anything you like, but I reserve my right to be annoyed as hell when you do the above.

Please, be annoyed all you like. I'm annoyed by my church quite often. But I still reserve the right to correct misinformation.

[PennySycamore]

With all due respect, does the cognitive dissonance not get to you? (This is an honest question. I used to be Catholic and left because I could no longer square the official dogma and my own values.)

What Samurai Sarah said.

[breadprincess]

With all due respect, does the cognitive dissonance not get to you? (This is an honest question. I used to be Catholic and left because I could no longer square the official dogma and my own values.)

Yes, it does. I've read a bit of exmormon.org and what I've found there is troubling. It also doesn't help that I'm queer and was raised by hippies. I'm currently working through my thoughts and feelings about the Church and religion in general.

[freejoytoo]

So if it bothers you, why are you still part of the church? I've read exmormon.org and honestly, all of it points to the entire thing as Christianity being rewritten with America as the centre. And aside from that, what about things like the church saying black people were tainted by sin and then suddenly 'realising' it had been mistranslated after the civil rights movemnt, as with when polygamy was made illegal. And what about the pushing of Prop 8? You know, I bet one day, when homophobia has the same stigma as racism, the chutch will 'realise' it was wrong about that as well.

[breadprincess]

So if it bothers you, why are you still part of the church? I've read exmormon.org and honestly, all of it points to the entire thing as Christianity being rewritten with America as the centre. And aside from that, what about things like the church saying black people were tainted by sin and then suddenly 'realising' it had been mistranslated after the civil rights movemnt, as with when polygamy was made illegal. And what about the pushing of Prop 8? You know, I bet one day, when homophobia has the same stigma as racism, the chutch will 'realise' it was wrong about that as well.

Because there are a lot of things I still love about the Church, despite everything that's bad. I may eventually leave when I get to the bottom of my soul searching on the issue and read some more, but I'm not quite there yet.

[formergothardite]

What exactly is the good in it that can't be found elsewhere? These conversations always remind me of Gothard defenders who claim to just pick out the good stuff and ignore the bad and so they won't leave ATI.