This depresses me - no music

[RR88]

I believe Oprah Winfrey's two-part piece on Lubavitch Hasidism has already been discussed at FJ, but does anyone find this particular snippet as disturbing as I do? Music is a tremendous part of my life, and one of the worst things about attending an ultra-Orthodox school (as I did) was having parts of my music collection inspected (and sometimes confiscated) because they were not "appropriate". The stuff we were expected to listen to all sounded the same to me, with little variation or creativity. It was stifling. To a sixteen-year-old (who, at that time, listened to everything from the Grateful Dead to J.S. Bach to AC/DC to Buddy Rich), this attempt to control what I listened to seemed very evil and Orwellian. Am I just bashing this woman's choices? I'm having a hard time believing that she is actually more impressed with a Hasidic "nigun" (melody/chant) than she is with an entire universe of music that she is no longer allowed to listen to.

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[Bellatrix]

Unfortunately, this video isn't accessible to my country (France)...

The title of said video suggest a DJ turned down her career and music collection for Hasidism, right?

[RR88]

Yes. She talks about how Hasidic melodies "touch the soul more deeply" than any non-Hasidic music could. Maybe this is true for her, but the people who say these things also try to push such preferences on others (i.e., me).

[Bellatrix]

Yes. She talks about how Hasidic melodies "touch the soul more deeply" than any non-Hasidic music could. Maybe this is true for her, but the people who say these things also try to push such preferences on others (i.e., me).

I'm just going to say it: I'm tired of the concept of the soul being kidnapped and held hostage by religions. There, it's out in the open. I'm really tired of it. I'm willing to discuss the soul but when a religious group comes forward and talks about how to save a soul, how to free a soul (by emprisoning the body and mind, hah, how ironic), how to touch the soul (sounds dirtaaaay too, but that's off topic), I sigh.

And there is zero rational behind the idea that "the" soul is more touched by one type of melody/one kind of food/a certain way of dressing. The view of society will, and in extreme cases like black lace lingerie on a hot body, the sexual desire will. But the soul? We can't even settle on a definition of it, let alone give evidence of its existence. Never mind trying to convince me that this particular thing (in this case, Hasidic melodies) dependent on the bodily senses will affect it in a better or more effective manner than another.

She might prefer it now, for perhaps not very valid and not invidual reasons, but I doubt it touches the soul deeper. That's just adding metaphors and hypotheses on top of each other and hoping the outcome will be the best scrambled eggs in the history of 4EVAH.

[constantgardener]

I can't view the video either, but I really feel your pain, RR88. Music was my life as a teenage, can't imagine what it would have been like to have it taken away from me. I still listen to music every day. I don't really understand why it has to be an either/or situation for the woman in the video - why can't she listen to Hasidic music and other genres? I like alternative rock, hip hop, blues, folk, jazz...I don't feel the need to put my preferences in neat little boxes.

[2xx1xy1JD]

As you yourself have pointed out previously, there's a difference between consciously choosing something and having it imposed on you.

She was involved in the industry. She made a choice to walk away from it, and obviously saw something more compelling in her new life. If she says that X touches her soul more deeply, that's her reaction and I don't think that there's a basis to argue against someone else's personal reaction to music.

Banning stuff for a teen, who obviously isn't learning to judge for herself what is and is not appropriate and is not internalizing the values behind that determination, is the opposite of that process of free choice and decision-making. IMHO, even from an educational POV, it sucks. I can be critical of certain things in popular culture/media (I find the lyrics to "Sexy Bitch" and "S&M" disturbing, since I wouldn't give me kids 50 Shades of Grey to read, but they hear me ranting about mixed messages toward domestic violence and objectifying women), but my kids know WHY something may be inappropriate. Toddlers have no filter, but even a 5 yr old is capable of some critical thinking. I don't think that all non-religious music is bad, and some of it can even be inspiring. For example, even though it was totally overplayed here, I loved "Waving Flag".

[ilovetchotchkes]

As you yourself have pointed out previously, there's a difference between consciously choosing something and having it imposed on you.

She was involved in the industry. She made a choice to walk away from it, and obviously saw something more compelling in her new life. If she says that X touches her soul more deeply, that's her reaction and I don't think that there's a basis to argue against someone else's personal reaction to music.

Banning stuff for a teen, who obviously isn't learning to judge for herself what is and is not appropriate and is not internalizing the values behind that determination, is the opposite of that process of free choice and decision-making. IMHO, even from an educational POV, it sucks. I can be critical of certain things in popular culture/media (I find the lyrics to "Sexy Bitch" and "S&M" disturbing, since I wouldn't give me kids 50 Shades of Grey to read, but they hear me ranting about mixed messages toward domestic violence and objectifying women), but my kids know WHY something may be inappropriate. Toddlers have no filter, but even a 5 yr old is capable of some critical thinking. I don't think that all non-religious music is bad, and some of it can even be inspiring. For example, even though it was totally overplayed here, I loved "Waving Flag".

THIS. There's, age appropriate and telling kids WHY it isn't, and then there's "LETS PUT A BAN ON EVERYTHING THAT COULD BE OBJECTIONABLE" what you get with the first is a level of trust with your kids that they learn to make critical thinking decisions about what they're listening to. With the second? the minute they're allowed on their own, they'll buy shit like, Khias "My Neck My Back" in epic rebellion.

(Personally, i don't clutch pearls much and I can't FATHOM how Rhianna's S&M was approved by the FCC to be played on the radio, period!! I have absolutely NOTHING against kink of any kind, let your freak flag fly!!!, but I don't want my 2 year old hearing it. )

[mirele]

THIS. There's, age appropriate and telling kids WHY it isn't, and then there's "LETS PUT A BAN ON EVERYTHING THAT COULD BE OBJECTIONABLE" what you get with the first is a level of trust with your kids that they learn to make critical thinking decisions about what they're listening to. With the second? the minute they're allowed on their own, they'll buy shit like, Khias "My Neck My Back" in epic rebellion.

(Personally, i don't clutch pearls much and I can't FATHOM how Rhianna's S&M was approved by the FCC to be played on the radio, period!! I have absolutely NOTHING against kink of any kind, let your freak flag fly!!!, but I don't want my 2 year old hearing it. )

The FCC mandate is not to approve songs that air on American terrestrial stations. It is to license stations and to fine them for violating broadcast decency standards after the fact based on complaints and hearings. You'll note what is NOT under FCC jurisdiction: digital radio (e.g., Sirius) and pretty much all of cable TV. If the FCC tried to force companies to submit their work prior to airing, it would be in court so fast because First Amendment law doesn't generally allow for "pre-publication (or broadcast) censorship."

I had never heard of the song you mentioned, so I looked up the lyrics. Yeah, not appropriate, but not indecent and certainly not including one of the "seven dirty words." Like that matters any more. I still remember my shock several years ago hearing Nine Inch Nails' "Closer" on a local radio station. One word (of the four letter variety) had been basically scratched so the song could be played. No, you didn't hear the word, but we can all fill in "I want to #### you like an animal," can't we?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree. "Sex is the air, you know I love the smell of it. Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me" is not something I want my kids singing (and it's a catchy song, dammit, and those words are clear so they would be singing along to it).

More than that, there's a huge mixed message with Rhianna. She's gets beaten and bruised by Chris Brown - but somehow, he still has a career, and she sometimes spends time with him. She sings a song about domestic violence with Eminem - I know that it's from the POV of 2 people in an abusive relationship, but when you know that Rhianna was actually beaten by her old boyfriend AND that Eminem was also violent with his ex, it's not as clear that they are saying "this is a really fucked-up mindset that should be rejected by any sane individual". Then, when she sings about the wonders S&M when the world knows that she's a domestic violence survivor, the line is further blurred and there's a real concern that violence between people who have a sexual relationship is being glamorized. I don't have a problem with other songs about domestic violence, like Amanda Marshall's "Birmingham".

[ilovetchotchkes]

The FCC mandate is not to approve songs that air on American terrestrial stations. It is to license stations and to fine them for violating broadcast decency standards after the fact based on complaints and hearings. You'll note what is NOT under FCC jurisdiction: digital radio (e.g., Sirius) and pretty much all of cable TV. If the FCC tried to force companies to submit their work prior to airing, it would be in court so fast because First Amendment law doesn't generally allow for "pre-publication (or broadcast) censorship."

I had never heard of the song you mentioned, so I looked up the lyrics. Yeah, not appropriate, but not indecent and certainly not including one of the "seven dirty words." Like that matters any more. I still remember my shock several years ago hearing Nine Inch Nails' "Closer" on a local radio station. One word (of the four letter variety) had been basically scratched so the song could be played. No, you didn't hear the word, but we can all fill in "I want to #### you like an animal," can't we?

What is hilarious is my friend worked for her college's radio station. They could not play Cole Porter's "Lets Do it" (Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it, lets do it! let's fall in love!") because supposedly it alluded to sex.

I mean, i have no issue with music like that being produced, but its like I REALLY don't wanna explain what "whips and chains excite me" means to my kid!

(My 5 year old niece has "Tick Tock " by Ke$ha memorized. Its shocking yet hilarious to hear "I brush my teeth with a bottle of jack" come out of a 5 year old's mouth )

[RR88]

Too many of today's "artists" don't actually produce or think up their own music. They go into a studio with music and lyrics that someone else wrote and have their vocals manipulated with software. That's not a reason to only listen to crappy religious music, though.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Too many of today's "artists" don't actually produce or think up their own music. They go into a studio with music and lyrics that someone else wrote and have their vocals manipulated with software. That's not a reason to only listen to crappy religious music, though.

True, there IS good religious music out there, you just have to look to find it. (Aka: The Groggers)

[Lady_M]

The video is...disturbing.

Back when I was a teenager and in with a more religious group, I was pressured by some friends to give up most of my secular CDs. Funny enough, most of them have crept back into my collection as an adult, plus some. I just can't get going on my run in the morning without some Rammstein and Dropkick Murphys (particularly "The Spicy McHaggis Jig"!) :D .

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm not advocating extreme censorship.

Here's one song I like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfFXkrNW ... re=related

At the same time, I'll point out that a niggun can be just a wordless, repetitive chant.

[RR88]

I guess I'm just annoyed by people who are not raised fundie, then "get religion" and don't allow their kids to read/listen to/watch/interact with what they please.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I guess I'm just annoyed by people who are not raised fundie, then "get religion" and don't allow their kids to read/listen to/watch/interact with what they please.

She's a BT.

I can easily imagine her preferring the niggun partly due to (as you and others mentioned) she just voluntarily CHOSE to listen to that music, but I think there's more to it that that - you have to consider what that music, niggun vs. secular, means in the context of her life and what she's trying to do.

I suspect she's very invested in the idea that she SHOULD prefer niggun to secular music. She's trying to belong and everything and everyone in her community (not to mention the outreach people, no doubt!!) are telling her that niggun is better, and she can "fit in" better if she says (and maybe even convinces herself) that really, yes, she does prefer it. Or to put it more bluntly, she really really wants to believe.

In the same way she convinces herself that she doesn't like the old music anymore, because it reminds her of her old life that she most likely would prefer had happened differently. She mentions the supermarket music. Tons of BTs do, on the internet, in blogs and forums and all the rest, and they say similar stuff - they hear the tunes in the market, and they realize they know the lyrics, and they don't like that they know the lyrics because it reminds them that they grew up secular (and so they worry their brains are too full of garbage, etc etc etc), and if someone ELSE knows they know the lyrics, it just becomes another reminder that they're outsiders.

A lot of this stuff really reminds me of expat and immigration issues and social climbing issues of various kinds. When you worry that you don't belong or "fit in" in a certain group, you don't want to let anyone know that you also belong to any other group. Because if you maybe belong to another group too, people might consider THAT group your main group.

Back to the various BT blogs, it's interesting in light of all this that you can find older people who have been in their new life for decades who are a lot more open about admitting they remember secular lyrics and not caring that others know about it. I suspect it's because they're less anxious by then and more open to just being themselves.

Aside from that I'll admit I don't buy into this "music harms your soul" stuff either, whether it's from these people or the Christians who think any music with a certain beat that rock uses is inherently evil. Just as this woman in the video admits, music brings back memories for me too, and even music with absolutely horrible lyrics (if I take the time to go read it) is tied up with completely different images in my mind. The song might sing about sex and the rest but it reminds me of riding the train in junior high school, or whatever it is. In fact I don't like watching music videos because I did not grow up with them, and the images that are supposed to go with the song just get in the way of my memory!

Of course if you grow up with niggun, some of those will be memory laden in the same way, it's just the way the brain works. And surely some people who really like them like them because of the memories, so it's working exactly the same way as secular tunes. Same can be said for people who trigger powerful good nostalgia off of Christian hymns.

Either way IMHO there's always room to learn new stuff. Obsessing over some old commercial jingle somehow making the brain "too full" is just silly.

Short version: I don't see the point of censoring her kids' listening, either.

[RR88]

I think she mentions at a different point that the reason she became religious is because she "had to" in order to marry her husband, who she thought was hot.

[artschooldropout]

Too many of today's "artists" don't actually produce or think up their own music. They go into a studio with music and lyrics that someone else wrote and have their vocals manipulated with software. That's not a reason to only listen to crappy religious music, though.

There is so much good music out nowadays, though. It's just not played in the Top 40. For every LMFAO or The Wanted you have Fleet Foxes, No Age, Grizzly Bear, Wilco, Mystery Jets or the Shins!

[Sweetpea1]

Back when I was a teenager and in with a more religious group, I was pressured by some friends to give up most of my secular CDs. Funny enough, most of them have crept back into my collection as an adult, plus some. I just can't get going on my run in the morning without some Rammstein and Dropkick Murphys (particularly "The Spicy McHaggis Jig"!) :D .

That is me, too. I am lamenting that my Beatles collection went on a rummage sale. Sigh.

[artschooldropout]

I think she mentions at a different point that the reason she became religious is because she "had to" in order to marry her husband, who she thought was hot.

This is even more depressing

[RR88]

She talks about becoming religious, among other things, between the 12:30-15:00 mark in the video. Perhaps it was edited. I'm not sure what an "alternative DJ" is. Later on, she says that she was "very attracted" when she first saw her husband and that he had "beautiful green eyes":

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